PAYPAL / EBAY FRAUD: item not received and no refund from paypal - please help!

[mcinque]

After all I've been textually told that I can keep arguing over and over but nothing is going to change.

What they told is irrelevant.

Support people you talk to are there not to help you, but to cover company from liability.

Contact DHL by registered mail asking details and if possible, the italian postal police, against PayPal.

Dealing directly with PayPal will not change the things, obviously.

[_Wim_]

On a side note, there was a huge wave of strikes within the Deutsche Post and DHL lately in Germany. It was a total mess. I haven't received any post at all for a few weeks. One of my packages was sent, arrived somewhere at the DHL department in my town, where it took holidays for about 5 weeks. June was the month when the usual delivery time got left shifted a few bits.
As others pointed out, DHL is to blame here. Tracking shows the package was posted, but got stuck somewhere. The seller should request DHL to investigate the case.

I would also not loose hope yet. I also had packages delivered in the past that travelled over six weeks. Same as in your case, tracking was not updated untill the package arrived at my doorstep.

 I would also tell paypall/ebay/DHL your willing to wait for another month, but they should leave your case "open" until you are certain it will not arrive, and then off course you should be correctly refunded. I very supprised they did not suggest that you wait a little longer, dissapointed even by how they handle such a complaint.

[ecom.gp]

I would also tell paypall/ebay/DHL your willing to wait for another month, but they should leave your case "open" until you are certain it will not arrive, and then off course you should be correctly refunded. I very supprised they did not suggest that you wait a little longer, dissapointed even by how they handle such a complaint.

How can I do that? The case is already closed.

[wraper]

I would also tell paypall/ebay/DHL your willing to wait for another month, but they should leave your case "open" until you are certain it will not arrive, and then off course you should be correctly refunded. I very supprised they did not suggest that you wait a little longer, dissapointed even by how they handle such a complaint.

How can I do that? The case is already closed.

If 10 days have not passed since the case was closed, you could try to press that "appeal this decision" link.

[Pinkus]

If I were you I would call DHL (+49-228-28609898) and check with the guy on the phone
a) the tracking: they do have more information online than you can see on their system
b) let them check if the seller claimed the package as lost (though I do not know if they are allowed to give you this information, because only the shipper and DHL have a contract, not the receiver). Probably he already did claim insurance (shipping was 6 weeks ago), as then he will receive 500 Euro from DHL. Usually DHL then pays after approx. 4 weeks (I had two lost packages in the past).
c) Then write this guy a registred letter that, if he does pay you back the 500 Euro he will get from the insurance, you will hire a lawyer and claim a lawsuit against him. He would be responsible for lawer costs and law suit then. You are in Italy, he is in Germany. Both EU, easy to solve. You will win the law suit without any problem. All costs has to be covered by the seller.
Do not play around and beg. Go to a lawyer and let them do their work.


P.S. And yes, call Paypal again. Talk to another person and explain again. Be calm and smooth and tell them paypal made a mistake.
Good luck!

[Deathwish]

http://lien.fmotl.com/

[Muttley Snickers]

I've only had a brief look over the thread and have made mention of a particular Paypal claim on this forum before which was referred to as "The Hobby King Horror". During that claim process at one point with all the other nonsensical information that they provided I was instructed to go to the local law enforcement agency with all the documented evidence and notify them of fraudulent activity by this seller.

The Police although very helpful indicated that if an offence had occured and it could be proven unfortunately it was outside of their jurisdiction because the seller was based overseas and even though their website gave indication of having a distribution network here in Australia nothing could be done, they did however conclude based on the documentation that I had provided that if the seller was local and within their jurisdiction then the matter may have been referred to the fraud squad for further review.

Paypal have rules but they are not the law.

Good luck, I hate hearing these stories.

[Deathwish]

Are you serious Muttley ?    , I would have thought that as they had a distribution net in your country that would give law enforcement a legal basis and standing to take action, they are trading through your country !. It reminds me of that film about stolen nazis paintings and that woman taking the Austrian Govt to court in America because they sold books in the 'usa.

[Muttley Snickers]

It's true, I had to get a statutory declaration from the Police and forward it on to Paypal in order to continue the claim process. I was into it for seventy two bucks and lost days and half my hair because on principal alone I couldn't let it go, if I had of known from the get go how fucked up Paypal are then I would have called it quits early, this thing went on for three months.

I had to comply with every instruction given by Paypal no matter how ludicrous or misinformed it was, how do you think I learnt to shake hands and beg, they wanted me to roll over and play dead in the end but they picked the wrong mongrel.

Never Again.

[wraper]

The seller has a spotless feedback record and there is evidence that he has posted the item in this case also. Has the seller been approached to follow up with DHL about the location of the parcel?

Though total value of the items for which he received feedback since the beginning seem to be about 500 EUR.

[ecom.gp]

The seller has a spotless feedback record and there is evidence that he has posted the item in this case also. Has the seller been approached to follow up with DHL about the location of the parcel?

Yes. Many and many times. All he is able to say is that we have to wait...

Is the seller responsible for parcels lost by the postal system? A business can wear the occasional lost package as part of the cost of doing business but still doesn't need to. Should buyers bear some burden of responsibility if they opt for the cheapest available option and don't insist on insurance? That's a general observation. I haven't followed this thread in meticulous detail so I will not make blanket statements.

Yes, the seller is responsible for delivery to the buyer's address.
If something goes wrong he should refund the buyer and file an insurance claim against the shipper.
DHL Paket International is not exactly cheap and is also insured.

I do believe the Paypal protections are specifically to protect the business interests of PayPal/Ebay. I wouldn't be depending on them. They are little more than a "goodwill" gesture to make buyers more willing to spend in the false sense of security they enjoy.

I agree, but there are rules (user agreement) and they shouldn't violate them or lie about shipping status.

[ecom.gp]

The seller has a spotless feedback record and there is evidence that he has posted the item in this case also. Has the seller been approached to follow up with DHL about the location of the parcel?

Though total value of the items for which he received feedback since the beginning seem to be about 500 EUR.

Less than what I paid for my item...

[hibone]

What about claiming that the packet is different from what you ordered.

You simply send back an empty box, and ask for a refund...

[Macbeth]

What about claiming that the packet is different from what you ordered.

You simply send back an empty box, and ask for a refund...

I think it would be wise for sellers here to put hibone on your blacklists. 

[hibone]

  LOL

Does that also mean that sellers here usually scam the buyers? I hope not.

Either case, sorry for being pragmatic.

If the seller scams you, and those who claim to protect you leave you on your own, should you just remain proudly honest, scammed and "short on cash"? 

[owiecc]

In Poland, this kind of offence (art. 286 § 1 kk) is prosecuted ex officio. This means you just inform the prosecutor about the offence, you give them the proof of payment and the printouts from DHL that you did not receive the goods and its the prosecutors job to find the offender and take action against them. Normally the prosecutor will call the person to give you back your money or give you the goods you paid for and if they do not conform the prosecutor will file a lawsuit against them.

The good thing about this is that you do not pay a thing to start the procedure. In your case I would call a your local prosecutor office to ask how the procedure looks in your country.

[AndreasF]

With all the postal strike action in recent months in Germany, I'm fairly convinced that nobody is trying to scam anyone here and the package is simply stuck somewhere.  Two things nonetheless stand out: 1) the seller should have initiated a formal inquiry about the package with DHL and told you about it. If it turns out the package is indeed lost, he could claim back the insurance and reimburse you. 2) Paypal should not have claimed the item has been delivered when clearly it has not. It may have been "delivered" to the "collection point", but clearly not to you.

[dadler]

What about claiming that the packet is different from what you ordered.

You simply send back an empty box, and ask for a refund...

As much as I hate to say it, this isn't a bad idea.

You'll certainly get the seller's cooperation with this method.

SNAD claims are always decided in the favor of the buyer. If they are saying the item was delivered to you, go through eBay and say it's not as described. It was described as a signal generator and what you received was a brick, or a book, a box-shaped void of quantum vacuum...

In cases like this I think the seller really should eat the cost. There is no possible way this is the buyer's fault.

[bitseeker]

Dear -----,
 
thank you for your request.
 
Please accept our apologies for our late reply.
 
According the shipment-number your parcel did not left Germany at the moment, please contact the sender to request an investigation.
 
We apologize for any inconvenience.
 
Do you have any further questions? Please don't hesitate to contact your customer service representative using the phone number given below.
 
In case you answer back via e-mail please refer to your first request.
 
Kind regards,
 
--------
 
Kundenservice
DHL Vertriebs GmbH
 
Telefon 0228 28609898
Kontakt: www.dhl.de
 
DHL Vertriebs GmbH; Sitz Bonn; Registergericht Bonn; HRB 19565
Geschäftsführung: Dr. Andrej Busch, Norman Chmiel, Heinrich Eilers, Katja Herbst, Dr. Thomas Ogilvie
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrates: Uwe Brinks

This is good confirmation. Contact PayPal again and tell them you have proof that it hasn't shipped and you want your refund. If they refuse, ask the person on the phone to escalate to his/her supervisor.

If that doesn't work. Contact them again, maybe at a different time of day. Different staff respond differently. Always be professional, and don't give up. Maybe if you contact them enough, they'll actually do something about it.

[KD0CAC John]

It seems that many / most are missing a key point .
The seller can start a shipment online without any package being in existence  - just the online order .
I had the same issue , except that I go through a series of questions before any exchange of money even begins , and this has so far either made the deal happen or gave me concern / suspicions .
In this case the seller refused to use PayPal , but agreed to send package and wait for funds to be sent money order after I inspect the item .
They generated the order for package to be picked up by shipper / or dropped off by seller , after a few emails , the seller claiming to have sent , the shipper [ I forget , but was either UPS or Fedex ] with online tracking number never showed that the package was received by the shipper .
So then I got the seller to start the lost package search , then at this point , the shipper called it a lost in transit [ or some term close to that ] .
The point being that , thieves get the system figured out and can work it - generate a tracking number WITHOUT GIVING SHIPPER A PACKAGE , just the either of the internet . 

[edavid]

It seems that many / most are missing a key point .
The seller can start a shipment online without any package being in existence  - just the online order .

Not relevant to the OP's situation, since the tracking says "The shipment has been posted by the sender at the retail outlet".

[dadler]

What about claiming that the packet is different from what you ordered.

You simply send back an empty box, and ask for a refund...

As much as I hate to say it, this isn't a bad idea.

OP said the case has already been closed, so this is not an option.

You can appeal the claim if the item "shows up" but is not as described in the auction.

[hibone]

You can appeal the claim if the item "shows up" but is not as described in the auction.

That's the point.
To my understanding, the seller provided a proof that the package has been delivered which should be fake, given that the package has not been delivered as per the DHL report. Paypal also accepted that proof without questioning it's origin, since usually should the buyer or DHL that proofs reception, not the seller.


Since both the seller and PayPal insist that the package has been received, and the proof is not fake, it means that the buyer has actually received an invisible/untouchable item sent in an invisible/untouchable package, hence I guess what has been received is different from what has been claimed in the description. Thus the buyer should take the delivery for a fact, and point out that the received package is different from what the seller claimed in the description.

It may be sophistry, of course, but to me both the seller's and PayPal's behaviour is not all that honest and transparent.

[ecom.gp]

You can appeal the claim if the item "shows up" but is not as described in the auction.

That's the point.
To my understanding, the seller provided a proof that the package has been delivered which should be fake, given that the package has not been delivered as per the DHL report. Paypal also accepted that proof without questioning it's origin, since usually should the buyer or DHL that proofs reception, not the seller.


Since both the seller and PayPal insist that the package has been received, and the proof is not fake, it means that the buyer has actually received an invisible/untouchable item sent in an invisible/untouchable package, hence I guess what has been received is different from what has been claimed in the description. Thus the buyer should take the delivery for a fact, and point out that the received package is different from what the seller claimed in the description.

It may be sophistry, of course, but to me both the seller's and PayPal's behaviour is not all that honest and transparent.

Interesting point. I may assume I got an invisible package and act accordingly...
Anyway I think the seller provided just the tracking number.
Then it was paypal to lie about the delivery to cover their decision.
In the end of case notification they say to have used the courier tracking system to confirm the delivery, which is clearly false.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I'm buying quite a lot on ebay (mostly from abroad), and the few cases where I had problems I found that contacting ebay through Twitter is the most effective method of getting things resolved, probably because everyone can read it. Sometimes you need to up the pressure a bit but in the end all issues got resolved.

Oh, and never ever open case for a problem with an ebay item with Paypal, always with ebay.