[AU] Buying Carbon Dioxide fire extinguishers... who knew it would be difficult?

[Halcyon]

I'm looking to buy some CO2 extinguishers for my personal lab. After a quick Google, there are some companies selling no-name branded CO2 extinguishers online that claim they are "tested and approved" to the relevant Australian standard, however can one be sure? I'm not saying they won't do the job, but what's to say the seals won't leak after a year or two? Also, they are bloody expensive with 2KG of CO2 going for $120-$200 (I know, small price to pay for safety, but still.)

Like most things, I like to stick with the big, reputable brands, in this case Chubb or Wormald but there is no information on their websites about how to purchase their products. It's almost like they don't want money from the general public.

Given that fire extinguishers and fire blankets should be in every house and are mandated in every workplace, why isn't it easier (and cheaper) to source them?

If anyone has managed to find a reputable source in Sydney, I'd love to hear from you, before I sink $1000 into fire protection gear.

[Muttley Snickers]

Whitworths are generally pretty good in regards to price, quality and customer support, you might want to have a look at their stuff first.

Whitworths Chandlery
https://www.whitworths.com.au/catalogsearch/result/?q=fire

[Halcyon]

Whitworths are generally pretty good in regards to price, quality and customer support, you might want to have a look at their stuff first.

Thanks. I had a quick look, but like most hardware stores and retailers, they only sell dry chemical extinguishers for some strange reason. There is no way I'm spraying dry powder all over my gear in the case of an electrical fire.

[Mr. Scram]

When did you see a CO2 fire extinguisher in a commercial or residential installation? Unless you have a really good reason, otherwise why not just use powder or HFC?

For most of the time, I see CO2 bottles used in chemical labs or similar places.

Powder is an absolute disaster. Even though your building doesn't burn down, it and everything in it is covered in fine powder. This generally means a total loss of any good or installation in the vinicity of the fire extinguished. In an electronics lab it would mean that any equipment is to be scrapped.

This stuff is so fine that it gets in between the pages of books in a book case. It will literally be everywhere.

[Muttley Snickers]

A follow on from the Whitworths stock, you could try ringing Firebox and asking if they will supply you directly otherwise ask them for a local authorised distributor, they do service and have an extensive range of spare parts by the look of it, also based up your way as well.

Firebox CO2 Extinguishers.
http://www.firebox.net.au/products/c02_extinguisher.html

[Electro Detective]

FWIW mate, a good pair of running shoes, fire blankets, buckets of sand, a very local Fire Brigade HQ, and a new-ish 30 meter garden hose with non-slip fittings, are a great 'standby'

..just in in case Murphy Inc. has shares in the  -enter your prefered OS sweatshoppe based vendor here-   manufacture/supply of TooHungLow
"Love You LongTime Limited Edition Mk11  Prortable Fiyre Extinctguishars" 

[Halcyon]

When did you see a CO2 fire extinguisher in a commercial or residential installation? Unless you have a really good reason, otherwise why not just use powder or HFC?

For most of the time, I see CO2 bottles used in chemical labs or similar places.

Almost all commercial buildings in Australia use CO2. It's a good "general" extinguisher for almost all types of fires, including electrical. It's easy to deploy and safe in most situations, plus it doesn't make a huge mess or get sucked up into sensitive electronics where it can cause damage. In addition, water sprinklers are mandatory, so in the event of an uncontrolled fire, the heat will trigger the glass ampoules within the sprinkler head to burst, the system will detect the loss in water pressure and kick in a water pump to deliver water to the tripped heads.

Electrical labs or data centres will use either CO2, a special vaporising liquid specifically for electrical fires or a gas like Inergen. Chemical labs will generally use a combination of CO2 and ABE powder or special wet chemical extinguishers.
Commercial kitchens will generally use CO2 for general areas and wet chemical for the cooking areas.

As Mr. Scram said, powder is a major pain in the ass. After you get the fire out, you're left dealing with the aftermath of the powder. Even a small 1KG ABE extinguisher has enough of the fine powder to create a huge mess.

[noidea]

Just look in the yellowpages / search for someone who does hydrostatic testing of cylinders and extinguishers. Most likely they will have some stock of good second-hand and probably new ones they'll sell.
I picked one up in Perth a few years back that way

[Psi]

Given the name of the OP one would think he'd be installing a halon system
 

but seriously, don't do that, they're toxic

[Halcyon]

FWIW mate, a good pair of running shoes, fire blankets, buckets of sand, a very local Fire Brigade HQ, and a new-ish 30 meter garden hose with non-slip fittings, are a great 'standby'

I appreciate it, but none of those are compatible with putting out electrical fires. Even fire trucks carry standard CO2 fire extinguishers for small fires, but by the time they turn up, it's going to do nothing.

I have a small dry chemical extinguisher, but I'd rather not go squirting that into my server rack if the need arises.

[PTR_1275]

It took me a while to get a co2 extinguisher for the home office / lab. I ended up buying a seconds one (the black nozzle has a crack in it so they were selling it cheap) and then a friend had a 5kg one that his work had replaced.

There is no way that I want a powder extinguisher anywhere near the equipment in the office. If I set one off, the damage bill would be more than 50 grand easily.

Try some of the big players (Wormald, Chubb, bell fire or whoever is around your area) and see if they have any with broken nozzles that they can’t sell for full price and see if they will sell it to you a bit cheaper.

[Daixiwen]

When you are used to powder or wet chemical extinguishers, a CO2 extinguisher empties itself surprisingly fast. If you ever have to use one in a fire, be sure you aim right before you turn it on, usually you only have a few seconds!
I'm sure the OP knows that but since there are others reading this I thought it should be mentioned.

[TerraHertz]

I wouldn't be surprised if in Oz you are not allowed to own CO2 extinguishers. That's how it has been till quite recently with welding gas cylinders, including CO2 and Argon. When I was young you could own those, but I recall the welding gas companies were able to get the government to outlaw private ownership of the cylinders. More money for the gas companies, since now they could enforce cylinder rental.

Lately I hear it's now possible again to own gas cylinders, but the costs are still too high because not many people do it that way yet.

Same would apply to CO2 extinguishers. More money for the big companies if they only rent out extinguishers.
Have you tried actually phoning them and asking? And maybe they won't talk to anyone but commercial entities wanting large numbers of extinguishers for whole buildings, with multi-year maintenance contracts?

My problem is how to ever get the CO2 extinguishers I have refilled, if I had to use them.
But I much prefer pressurized water extinguishers. Easily maintained, can be pressurized with a standard air compressor. Make great super-soakers on hot summer days with the kids. As for electrical fires... in the household, what electrical fires? That won't have a grounded chassis? Or in which step one isn't just turning off the power at the board?

Also... CO2 extinguisher fights in abandoned or under-demolition buildings. So much fun! You haven't lived unless you've crept up behind some friend in the dark and let them have it full blast in the back of the head from a couple of feet way. And how many layers of clothing are needed, to be able to take a full CO2 extinguisher charge at point blank range to the chest, without getting frostbite? A: a lot.

[jmelson]

Many years ago I bought a bunch of water/air extinguishers on eBay for about $25 each.  You unscrew the top and fill with water, then use a tire pump or air compressor to charge with air.  One has a leaky valve, the others are still holding their charge 20+ years later.  We did actually use one when a bunch of turkey grease caught fire in the oven.  A couple short blasts against the back of the oven atomized the water and put the grease out.  (I knew not to direct a STREAM of water on the burning grease.)

For commercial use, these extinguishers need to be retired after just a few years, so there is a good supply of just a few years old units.

Jon

[Halcyon]

Most fire extinguishers I've seen in buildings (in China and at my uni in US) are powder or wet chemical.
They are maintenance free for most of the time, and they have a longer shelf life, besides the manufacturing quality requirement is lower hence they are cheaper.

CO2 bottles are essentially high pressure vessels, and hence are more expensive and needs more maintenance and have shorter shelf life between inspections.

I guess different countries, different safety requirements. However regardless of the type of extinguisher, none of them are "maintenance free". Actually, maintenance is probably the wrong word to use, all of them require inspection to ensure they are still charged (which is just a matter of looking at the pressure guage). Regardless of the fire fighting agent (gas, foam, water...) they are all stored under pressure using a gas as a propellant. They all require routine inspection to make sure the gas hasn't leaked, rendering the extinguisher useless. They all should undergo pressure testing (albeit infrequently). When I was in the fire brigade years ago, we filled our own water extinguishers using nothing more than tap water and an air compressor.

CO2 doesn't have a "shelf life" either. It doesn't go "bad" where as wet chemical ones can depending on the chemical used (usually AFFF).

[G7PSK]

Not all fire extinguishers are pressurised all the time, some have a glass vile of acid and the water in them is loaded with bicarbonate. Companies like Chubb don't sell directly as all their products need regular service checks, you have to go to a company that sells the units along with a service contract.

[jmelson]

Not all fire extinguishers are pressurised all the time, some have a glass vile of acid and the water in them is loaded with bicarbonate. Companies like Chubb don't sell directly as all their products need regular service checks, you have to go to a company that sells the units along with a service contract.

These soda/acid extinguishers were in all the schools when I was in grade school, haven't seen one in about 50 years.  The problem with them is if you jostle them it can spill the acid, and it won't work when needed.  Also, the cans tended to corrode.  I'm quite sure they have been illegal in the US for a number of decades.

Jon

[Halcyon]

Not all fire extinguishers are pressurised all the time, some have a glass vile of acid and the water in them is loaded with bicarbonate. Companies like Chubb don't sell directly as all their products need regular service checks, you have to go to a company that sells the units along with a service contract.

These soda/acid extinguishers were in all the schools when I was in grade school, haven't seen one in about 50 years.  The problem with them is if you jostle them it can spill the acid, and it won't work when needed.  Also, the cans tended to corrode.  I'm quite sure they have been illegal in the US for a number of decades.

Yep, likewise, I've never seen one in Australia. I doubt they would comply with any Australian standards anymore.

[DeanCording]

I appreciate it, but none of those are compatible with putting out electrical fires. Even fire trucks carry standard CO2 fire extinguishers for small fires, but by the time they turn up, it's going to do nothing.

I have a small dry chemical extinguisher, but I'd rather not go squirting that into my server rack if the need arises.

As someone who often drives a fire truck, I can say that we don't carry CO2 extinguishers as standard equipment because they aren't that effective.

Firstly, whilst they are safe for live electrical fires, they aren't that effective if the power is still running.  The CO2 soon disperses and the fire reignites.  Powder extinguishers include mica dust which can insulate electrical faults.

Secondly, on normal fires they aren't that effective either.  They work by starving the fire of O2 with a cloud of CO2 but the CO2 quickly disperses and the residual heat if often enough to reignite the fire.  Powder extinguishers work by spraying sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) everywhere.  The heat of the fire causes it to break down and produce CO2, which has the double benefit of starving the fire of O2 and removing heat.  As an added bonus, the powder doesn't disperse and it acts for longer so you need a lot less powder than CO2.

So, powder is far superior for extinguishing fires compared to CO2 but is messy and corrosive.  If you have a live electrical fire, first line of attack is to remove all power.  After that water the best extinguishing medium.  If you can't remove the power, powder is your best bet.   

[Halcyon]

I'm fully aware that CO2 isn't the best for electrical fires however it is still suitable and for me, will minimise the damage to otherwise unaffected devices. The amount of combustible material within my server rack and inside my equipment is minimal. If I'm there to fight the fire, I'm also able to shut off power. It just means I need a slightly larger CO2 tank to ensure an extended discharge.

Spraying powder or foam around will be just as destructive if I just let the whole rack burn. It's a compromise.

[Monkeh]

Powder extinguishers work by spraying sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) everywhere.

Or monoammonium phosphate. Mmm, corrosive. Potassium bicarbonate, also somewhat corrosive. Or a few other agents, just about all of which are pretty effective at destroying everything in the vicinity.

Yes, powder is good at stopping fires. It's also good at ruining absolutely everything within shouting distance of said fire. A good CO2 blast is quite effective at dealing with the sorts of fires we're concerned with.

[vk6zgo]

I wouldn't be surprised if in Oz you are not allowed to own CO2 extinguishers. That's how it has been till quite recently with welding gas cylinders, including CO2 and Argon. When I was young you could own those, but I recall the welding gas companies were able to get the government to outlaw private ownership of the cylinders. More money for the gas companies, since now they could enforce cylinder rental.

Lately I hear it's now possible again to own gas cylinders, but the costs are still too high because not many people do it that way yet.

Same would apply to CO2 extinguishers. More money for the big companies if they only rent out extinguishers.
Have you tried actually phoning them and asking? And maybe they won't talk to anyone but commercial entities wanting large numbers of extinguishers for whole buildings, with multi-year maintenance contracts?

My problem is how to ever get the CO2 extinguishers I have refilled, if I had to use them.
But I much prefer pressurized water extinguishers. Easily maintained, can be pressurized with a standard air compressor. Make great super-soakers on hot summers days with the kids. As for electrical fires... in the household, what electrical fires? That won't have a grounded chassis? Or in which step one isn't just turning off the power at the board?

Also... CO2 extinguisher fights in abandoned or under-demolition buildings. So much fun! You haven't lived unless you've crept up behind some friend in the dark and let them have it full blast in the back of the head from a couple of feet way. And how many layers of clothing are needed, to be able to take a full CO2 extinguisher charge at point blank range to the chest, without getting frostbite? A: a lot.

What a waste!----everybody knows CO2 extinguishers are for fast cooling beer! 

[amyk]

Given the name of the OP one would think he'd be installing a halon system
 

but seriously, don't do that, they're toxic

Halon 1211 isn't that bad, and it's far more effective than anything else while being less damaging too...

... that is until the greenies got it banned (but you can still get it from China for surprisingly low prices...) because it depletes the ozone layer. Nevermind the huge quantities of greenhouse gas and other toxins a fire produces...

[Cerebus]

As for halon, it's not much more toxic compared with CO2 as long as common sense is practiced, and halon stores at much lower pressure, plus halon doesn't freeze and condense water, leaving ice trail.

The firefighting halons are actually less toxic than CO₂. CO₂ flood fire suppression systems (when they were in use) were operated at levels that were about 10 times the level (30% v/v) where they begin to show toxicity (3% v/v, 10% v/v is fatal in a few minutes), you can remain conscious in 3 times the level of halon that was typically used in halon flood systems (5% v/v).

I actually would like to get a halon bottle for my home lab.

You won't find any. All the halons were due to be phased out by 2010 under the Montreal Protocol. They were generally replaced by FM200 aka HFC-227.

[Distelzombie]

Don't, EVER, use powder. It's the worst thing imaginable. It's just a tiny bit better than having everything burn down or sprayed to death by a fireman who can't aim. It gets EVERYWHERE, corrodes all bare metals, including electronics, and sucks up water because it's hygroscopic.
Someone once thought it was funny to use that in my apartment for no reason. Horrible.
Only good thing is it kills fire - if there is any ffs - and it's not toxic. I'm happy about the last part because I'm pretty sure there is still some the walls and ceilings.

Halon 1211 isn't that bad, and it's far more effective than anything else while being less damaging too...

... that is until the greenies got it banned (but you can still get it from China for surprisingly low prices...) because it depletes the ozone layer. Nevermind the huge quantities of greenhouse gas and other toxins a fire produces...

It's not THAT bad, yea, there's worse: "Halon 1211 has fairly low toxicity. The lethal concentration for 15 minute exposition is about 32%." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromochlorodifluoromethane
What kind or argument is that anyway? "Because fire is bad for the atmosphere let's use extinguishers that are bad for the atmosphere, even though there are better solutions?" Killing fire with fire is stupid if you can also kill it with water.