[AU] Buying Carbon Dioxide fire extinguishers... who knew it would be difficult?

[oldway]

People's reactions to a fire outbreak are sometimes amazing.

I was in the Brussel's metro and arriving at the station, the electrolytics of the chopper exploded several times .... After a white smoke coming from under the subway train, a thick black smoke followed, showing that the wiring caught fire.

Everyone was watching, doing nothing, not even the employees of the subway.

I grabbed a powder extinguisher and sprayed it under the car.

I managed to extinguish the beginning of the fire and everything was extinguished when the fire department arrived.

The most interesting thing is that no one thanked me for probably saving a subway train of destruction, but also that the employees of the subway were angry at my intervention and ordered me to leave the station.

[amyk]

The most interesting thing is that no one thanked me for probably saving a subway train of destruction, but also that the employees of the subway were angry at my intervention and ordered me to leave the station.

No doubt angry at the embarrassment of not knowing when to use a fire extinguisher, despite being presumably trained employees.

[james_s]

Powder is an absolute disaster. Even though your building doesn't burn down, it and everything in it is covered in fine powder. This generally means a total loss of any good or installation in the vinicity of the fire extinguished. In an electronics lab it would mean that any equipment is to be scrapped.

I think that's a bit hyperbolic. True it does make a huge mess, but I've cleaned up after dry chemical extinguishers on a couple of occasions and compressed air got it out of equipment fairly easily. It's effectively just white dust.

[Halcyon]

Powder is an absolute disaster. Even though your building doesn't burn down, it and everything in it is covered in fine powder. This generally means a total loss of any good or installation in the vinicity of the fire extinguished. In an electronics lab it would mean that any equipment is to be scrapped.

I think that's a bit hyperbolic. True it does make a huge mess, but I've cleaned up after dry chemical extinguishers on a couple of occasions and compressed air got it out of equipment fairly easily. It's effectively just white dust.

It's not "just" white dust though. The bulk of it is Monoammonium Phosphate which is slightly acidic. The trouble is, it shouldn't be vacuumed up using a normal vacuum cleaner. Not only is it a complete bitch to clean, unless you get every last little bit, you risk corroding components.

CO2 is almost as effective, leaves no residue and attacks only the fire, not any surrounding equipment. Yes, you might need more of it compared to ABE powder, but considering it costs around $25/kg retail, I'm not complaining.

[james_s]

I suppose another option is plain old fashioned water. Cut the power, hose it down, I realize the idea of using water on any sort of electrical equipment sounds crazy on the surface but it's not as nutty as it seems. It's very effective for extinguishing fires, and it generally cleans up easily.

[Synthtech]

For me the setup in my rooms full of expensive electronics is CO2 extinguishers with tested powder extinguishers hanging beside them as plan B. Those kitchen fireproof blankets can be handy to have nearby too to throw over nearby equipment if someone else is there to do so while you are dealing with the extinguisher.

[paulca]

I put out a serious fire without any fire extinguishers or blankets.  Saved my house.

Chip pan, hot oil fire which had been burning for a good few minutes, flames well across the ceiling.

When it comes to the crunch you have to get innovative.  I took the kitchen towels out of the drawer, dumped them in the sink with the dishes and carefully laid them over the top of the burning pan.  Fire out in seconds.

Different people respond differently in emergency situations.  I tend to go cold calm and act.  My brother however decided it was a great idea to panic about the smoke and ran and opened the back door providing fresh cool air for the fire, nearly killing me when the fire blossomed in front of me as I laid the first tea towel over it.  Bloody idiot.  "DONT OPEN THAT DOO...." too late.

[Halcyon]

I put out a serious fire without any fire extinguishers or blankets.  Saved my house.

Chip pan, hot oil fire which had been burning for a good few minutes, flames well across the ceiling.

When it comes to the crunch you have to get innovative.  I took the kitchen towels out of the drawer, dumped them in the sink with the dishes and carefully laid them over the top of the burning pan.  Fire out in seconds.

Different people respond differently in emergency situations.  I tend to go cold calm and act.  My brother however decided it was a great idea to panic about the smoke and ran and opened the back door providing fresh cool air for the fire, nearly killing me when the fire blossomed in front of me as I laid the first tea towel over it.  Bloody idiot.  "DONT OPEN THAT DOO...." too late.

Sure and good on you for thinking on your feet. My need for CO2 was specifically for a server room and some other electronic equipment. It's highly unlikely there will ever be a fire but if there is, I want to lessen the damage as much as possible, that means no powder. In normal situations, wet chemical or water should never be used in an electrical fire unless you take proper precautions or have been trained to (and yes, you can put out an electrical fire, even live high voltage gear, safely with water, if you know how).

For an oil / kitchen fire, smothering with a blanket is probably the best first course of action. There is no need to discharge an extinguisher for a small pot or pan of burning oil. It's not going anywhere.

However in your situation I'd be very concerned about the level of breathable air in the room. If it's low enough that the fire is starved of oxygen, then you shouldn't be in there. Low oxygen levels are one thing, but you're also breathing in Carbon Monoxide, airborne particulates and all manner of dangerous chemicals. Your brother may have actually prevented you from becoming a victim. It's really easy to get tunnel vision and time flies when the adrenaline is pumping. If you can't extinguish a fire in a short space of time (30 seconds), then get the hell out.

EDIT: For a good test of your evacuation plan, blindfold yourself and see how long it takes for you to locate keys (if required), unlock and open your point(s) of exit. Start from a position where you are most likely to be if a fire alarm activates (laying in bed for example) and close all the internal doors as you would normally do when sleeping.

[Cerebus]

I think you were very lucky. I've been in exactly the same situation except it was perhaps only 10-15 seconds since the fire started when I arrived to fight it.

I too tried to go for the 'wet tea towel' method, but smoke formed and filled the place so quickly that I couldn't see anything (or breathe properly) and just finding a tea towel was an impossibility. So I dropped to my hands and knees and attempted to open an exterior door at the other end of the kitchen to vent the smoke and give me a chance to see and fight the fire. I tried to find, by touch, the key to the door and despite knowing exactly where it was couldn't. I retreated, closed the kitchen door, evacuated the building, and called the fire brigade. All of this was done in a deliberate, calm fashion. From seeing the flash to being forced out of the house was perhaps 45 seconds top, probably closer to 30.

Anyone who hasn't been there will never appreciate how quickly smoke and fumes render everybody in the vicinity incapable of fighting a fire, possibly incapable of finding their way out of completely familiar surroundings. It doesn't matter how calm or logical you are, you have scant seconds to tackle a fire in an enclosed space before conditions reach the point that only someone with breathing apparatus and decent protective clothing has a reasonable chance of being an effective fire fighter.

It's only once you've 'been there' that you realise all the talk of planned, practised escape routes makes complete and utter sense. If you haven't already planned and practised this for your house and co-habitants, do it now.

[oldway]

You must choose an easy and quick solution...

The 5Kg carbon dioxyde extinguisher is the best solution, no doubt about it.

[mtdoc]

You must choose an easy and quick solution...

The 5Kg carbon dioxyde extinguisher is the best solution, no doubt about it.

Why is it better than a halatron extinguisher?

[oldway]

You means halotron extinguisher ?
I have nothing against halotron extinguisher but it is more expensive to buy and to recharge and not as easy to find on the market as CO² extinguisher. (at least in Europe, I don't know the situation in Australia.)

[MacMeter]

You must choose an easy and quick solution...

The 5Kg carbon dioxyde extinguisher is the best solution, no doubt about it.

Why is it better than a halatron extinguisher?

Can’t speak for what is available in AUS or Europe, but recently I looked into the various types available here in the USA, and determined that HALOTRON (the replacement for bannned Halon) was the best choice for my computer room. These are used in expensive race cars, airplanes, etc. I bought the Amerex brand, (Halotron #397) one if not the biggest manufacturers here, you see their standard powder versions on every floor in every office building.

I have a few powder types when and if the HALOTRON runs out, if the fire is still going. At that point, I won’t care about the gear anymore. The cost difference is significant for many. My HALOTRON was $375.00 versus $65 US, for the standard powder types, but we all know how expensive our gear is in comparison. I pray I never have to use any of them, but like the old saying: “HOPE FOR THE BEST, PREPARE FOR THE WORST”.

[MacMeter]

I think you were very lucky. I've been in exactly the same situation except it was perhaps only 10-15 seconds since the fire started when I arrived to fight it.

I too tried to go for the 'wet tea towel' method, but smoke formed and filled the place so quickly that I couldn't see anything (or breathe properly) and just finding a tea towel was an impossibility. So I dropped to my hands and knees and attempted to open an exterior door at the other end of the kitchen to vent the smoke and give me a chance to see and fight the fire. I tried to find, by touch, the key to the door and despite knowing exactly where it was couldn't. I retreated, closed the kitchen door, evacuated the building, and called the fire brigade. All of this was done in a deliberate, calm fashion. From seeing the flash to being forced out of the house was perhaps 45 seconds top, probably closer to 30.

Anyone who hasn't been there will never appreciate how quickly smoke and fumes render everybody in the vicinity incapable of fighting a fire, possibly incapable of finding their way out of completely familiar surroundings. It doesn't matter how calm or logical you are, you have scant seconds to tackle a fire in an enclosed space before conditions reach the point that only someone with breathing apparatus and decent protective clothing has a reasonable chance of being an effective fire fighter.

It's only once you've 'been there' that you realise all the talk of planned, practised escape routes makes complete and utter sense. If you haven't already planned and practised this for your house and co-habitants, do it now.

Your post regarding your experience, is the BEST in this thread! People have so many misconceptions about what they may or may not do when a fire breaks out, but the biggest miscalculation is the TIME FACTOR. As you have explained, you may have LESS then 60 seconds to do anything. While I may have gone a little overboard on how many smoke detectors I have, what I’ve learned is by the time a smoke detector goes off, it could give you just enough time to escape in many common types of building fires. Often it’s a night fire, power goes off, you are in the dark, may be hard to breath etc. TIME becomes a major enemy, not in your favor. ALWAYS have a quick escape plan, you can only buy new gear, or house if you are alive!

Very well written post, thanks for sharing it.

[mtdoc]

You means halotron extinguisher ?
I have nothing against halotron extinguisher but it is more expensive to buy and to recharge and not as easy to find on the market as CO² extinguisher. (at least in Europe, I don't know the situation in Australia.)

Halotron (not Halon which it replaced) is readily available and inexpensive in the US. I don't know about other countries.  In fact I think for home use it's easier and cheaper to get that CO2.

One advantage of halotron I think is that you can get a pretty small extinguisher that is more than adequate for a home electonics lab. The CO2 extinguishers tend to be much larger (and more expensive.)   

The larger halotron extiguishers have an advantage over the same sized CO2 extinguishers in that they will work on class A fires as well as class B and C fires.

[oldway]

Halcyon changed his explanations.

In his first post, he wrote: "I'm looking to buy some CO2 extinguishers for my personal lab."

And then, he wrote: "My need for CO2 was specifically for a server room and some other electronic equipment."

It should be known whether it is an application for hobbyist or professional and what is the value or importance of the equipment to protect?

All the server rooms I visited were protected by an automatic halon gas fire extinguishing system.

If you want serious protection, there is no question of relying on human intervention.

[helius]

Halotron is a HCFC and is being phased out. I believe 2020 is the date when it will no longer be legal to manufacture.
In the future the alternative would be something like Novec 1230.

[edavid]

Halotron is a HCFC and is being phased out. I believe 2020 is the date when it will no longer be legal to manufacture.
In the future the alternative would be something like Novec 1230.

Here is a document that claims otherwise:

http://amerex-fire.com/upl/downloads/library/halotron-i-just-the-facts.pdf

[MacMeter]

Halotron is a HCFC and is being phased out. I believe 2020 is the date when it will no longer be legal to manufacture.
In the future the alternative would be something like Novec 1230.

Here is a document that claims otherwise:

http://amerex-fire.com/upl/downloads/library/halotron-i-just-the-facts.pdf

Interesting, regardless I’m glad I bought my 10lbs Halotron last year.

[helius]

Halon 1211 is still being sold also (recycled through "halon banks"). But as stocks dwindle, the price will become uncompetitive compared to chemicals that are not banned.

[SeanB]

With fire extinguishers, you are generally required by most insurers to have an annual check by a "certified competent person" and to have a certificate of inspection on the extinguisher, and also for all of the pressure vessels have a current pressure test certificate, which here is every 5 years. Dry powder generally has to be at least turned over every 6 months and shaken so the powder flows freely inside, and CO2 and Halon do not need it.

Stored pressure has been outlawed for years, as the pressure vessels can corrode internally, as the valving is not airtight, and allows humid air to enter the cylinder, and this, along with the MAP powder fill, corrodes the cylinder from the inside out silently, meaning that using such a unit has a very high risk of it detonating when the internal CO2 pressurising cylinder is released into the container. Hose reels as well need the annual check for condition and flow, and are best as well NOT used as a general purpose washing hose, as this often means the hose is either damaged and broken, or the reel seals are worn and leak if used, resulting in poor water flow when used, or the hose is cut shorter than the regulation length ( here 15m for any reel) when it breaks from flexing.

Halon is still the only allowed agent in certain applications, mainly aircraft extinguishers ( hard to get a certified replacement that has the same properties, and is not corrosive to aluminium) and for manned space flight.  As well the only thing used for fire bottles on aircraft engines, nothing else works there to put out burning jet fuel so fast and effectively, yet still have the same compact volume for the same fire kill ability.

Purchasing CO2 is harder yes, but I have a few CO2 units at home, as they are very useful, and one in the car as well. Have used the car one, and it was very effective at putting the fire out as well, and no damage done further to the vehicle as well, for which the owner was grateful, though he did also have a freshly broken window to go with the burnt fuel line that caught fire, I needed to open the locked door, and the CO2 extinguisher made a very useful fireman’s key. Also have dry powder in the kitchen, and as well some retired Halon units, as they are still fine and holding pressure, and are a lot easier to clean up from.

Been in a burning building as well, and yes you do have only a limited time to react to the smoke, more so than the fire, the smoke is the biggest killer.

[NiHaoMike]

I remember reading an electronics book which recommended a powder type fire extinguisher in the lab, saying that whatever caught fire can be cleaned up with compressed air afterwards and salvaged. Is there a kind safe for electronics or were the through hole electronics of the day simply less likely to be damaged than modern SMD stuff?

[Cerebus]

... and the CO2 extinguisher made a very useful fireman’s key. ...

I suspect that a lot of professional firemen do the same, saves the walk back for the axe or sledgie. One of the funniest things I've seen was a photo of a very posh BMW that had been parked illegally next to a fire hydrant, there was a fire, and the attending firemen decided that the best hose route to the hydrant was through the BMWs windows using a firemans 'key'.

[Halcyon]

Halcyon changed his explanations.

In his first post, he wrote: "I'm looking to buy some CO2 extinguishers for my personal lab."

And then, he wrote: "My need for CO2 was specifically for a server room and some other electronic equipment."

It should be known whether it is an application for hobbyist or professional and what is the value or importance of the equipment to protect?

All the server rooms I visited were protected by an automatic halon gas fire extinguishing system.

If you want serious protection, there is no question of relying on human intervention.

Not at all. Both remain true and valid. But just to clarify... I need multiple extinguishers for private use in my own home. I have my own small electronics "lab" but also a dedicated server/storage room with a half-height rack full of gear plus a large UPS. The highest risk of fire (apart from the kitchen) is in that room because equipment is running 24/7/365 and the room is rarely inhabited, for the most part it's closed off to the rest of the house. There is also a dedicated smoke detector/alarm in that room which is linked to all the other alarms/detectors in the house.

Automated protection would be nice, but it's also very expensive. The best solution for me which fits in with my budget are manual CO2 extinguishers. Someone is home most of the time so chances of quick intervention in case of a fire are high and there are 5 main exit points if the fire gets too large to extinguish safely.

If in the highly unlikely event that the house burns down, I have home/contents insurance and good backups of my data.

[oldway]

What about making your own automatic extinguisher activated only at night or when there is nobody at home, using a CO² extinguisher directed to the server with lever actuated by a weight and an electronic control ?