5G test in Holland killed hundreds of starlings made ducks freak out!

[MT]

After reading about all the dangers of 5G i decided to sanitizing my lab bench to become electrical free zone! I know you will start to bitch about that to but i highly recommend all serious EE's to do this. Vitamin C neutralizes free radicals.

Apparently the US Cuba embassy was bombarded by 60Ghz collimated standing waves made by short legged crickets!
https://www.rt.com/usa/448151-cuba-embassy-sonic-attacks-crickets/

[cdev]

The whole planet used to be a wildlife haven before the human race started making it a human haven in ways that eliminated wildlife habitat. Remote islands of all kinds (for example, the Channel Islands in California) Military bases, even the DMZ between North and South Korea, because they are closed to the general public and many uses are prohibited, tend to become wildlife havens now.

Also, whats contemplated for 5G in terms of quantity of transmitters and wide range of frequencies used seems to me to be way beyond anything else thats being done today with RF. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know of anything else that comes even remotely close to what I am reading about is being planned. Also sea birds come and go over long distances, and they are (at least currently) unlikely to be carrying small transmitters around with them right next to their gonads. So nothing that exists today is really comparable.

(Reproductive health is a major area of concern with pro-oxidant environmental factors - or should be, see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1790953/ )


Think about the implications of zillions of transmitters in every possible object that could be fitted with one and one starts to get the idea. If you look at some of the research thats being done with RFID applications, particularly self-powered RFID applications, a picture starts to emerge.

I am not saying we should stop progress, just that we should not jump headlong into what may become an unhealthy situation in a bunch of different ways. Even if the effects on the body are clearly shown to be minor or insubstantial (I'm not saying that here, to be honest, I think the jury is still out)

 but the potentially high density of these transmitters and the higth pulsed power levels and beam forming aspects (what steers the beams - what is the effect of these beams on unborn life in particular - see the paper linked below)  in some environments - highways, for example, and the conflicts of interest aspects - seem like red flags to me - I just think we should go very slowly, given that the regulatory aspect of countries to ever reverse these things seems to have been deliberately broken by the 'ratchet clause' aspects in FTAs.)

So how come Diego Garcia, with large US military bases and the obvious crowd of radar and radio communications all over the spectrum, seems to be a wildlife haven?

Also, I don't know if you picked it up earlier. 5G is going to occupy a very wide spread of spectrum going from 600 MHz to over 70 GHz.

I think people who post on it should take some more time to read up on it. Lots of the things people are saying are just plain wrong. Its just a very very ambitious project, that is proceeding with precious little public awareness of where it might go, and it should be posing a lot of questions in people. Privacy should be a major concern, people have no idea how many products are going to be carrying networked devices.

Something like that in some contexts could also be very good. Imagine doctors having the abilty to monitor peoples health and tell how various things are effecting the health of people around them in real time.

[stj]

do we know the bands, power levels and beam patterns??

one thing i noticed where i am, the 5G antenna are mounted very low down - low enough to radiate through the 1st floor of peoples houses!!!
this is totally the oposite of cell-masts that are placed above all nearby structures to avoid signal loss and constant exposure risk.

[cdev]

Just found this, another data point thats relevant to the placement of cell sites.

This is from the US National Toxicology Program and its preliminary. I had not seen it before.

https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/about_ntp/trpanel/2018/march/tr595peerdraft.pdf

Here are some comments on it..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6254861/

Thoughts?

[borjam]

If you read closely you will find out not statistically significant effects and, in one case, radiation seemed to be even beneficial.

[stj]

in one case, radiation seemed to be even beneficial.

   GTFO.

[Buriedcode]

in one case, radiation seemed to be even beneficial.

   GTFO.

In male rats exposed to CDMA-modulated RF radiation for two years, an increased incidence of pituitary adenoma was found in the 1.5 W/kg (P=0.208) and 3 W/kg (P=0.030). In females there was a statistically significantly decreased incidence of adenoma or carcinoma in the 3 W/kg group (P=0.030).

I think that's what he was referring to.  Also note the huge dosage, about two orders of magnitude higher than one gets from a standard cell phone at max power.

I didn't see anything in that study that pointed towards a solid causal relationship between cell phones and disease.

[cdev]

Here is the thing thats going to change, the power thats going to be used is going to increase a lot and be spread over a huge number of frequencies from several hundred MHz up to above 70 GHz. its also going to be delivered via a huge number of new base stations, basically one every 100-200 meters in populated areas. Globally. So, although I have no idea if these particular birds were impacted, anything or anybody that is aloft or perhaps even on a hill, or near to one of these base stations, or say, along a major road or especially near an intersection where people's cars spend more time, (because of the beam steering and beam forming aspect) may I suspect be placed in the path of more RF than ever before. 

Should there be limits of any kind?

Not a single person Ive asked this question to in real life, had any doubt, they all think there should be and are.

But, here, it seems that some people are basically arguing there should not be any limitations.

Due to the architecture of the 5G buildout's various elements, it seems as if it will be hard to limit or measure anything The beam forming they will likely be using means multiple simultaneous data streams will be both converging inward from multiple directions and likely also going outward, on multiple frequencies.

Basically, an epidemiologists nightmare.

[Buriedcode]

Not a single person Ive asked this question to in real life, had any doubt, they all think there should be and are.

But, here, it seems that some people are basically arguing there should not be any limitations.

Who here, or anywhere said there shouldn't be any limits in power?

[stj]

a 200-300m grid globally?? this is clearly a weapon of some type - simply based on cost alone, it cant be anything related to "business".
even if it could pinpoint oil or gold, it couldnt pay for itself.

i wonder how much electricity it consumes while we are being told to reduce energy usage because of so-called "global warming" ??
the same goes for survailance grid's like in the u.k.
huge power drain for no good use.

[SiliconWizard]

Resistance will be futile.
 

But what are we complaining about, really? Everyone will be able to watch streaming videos in 8K on their 7" smartphone! Isn't that something worth making sacrifices for? 

[stj]

i know your being sarcastic, but just to blast some lies/excuses i'v seen for this stuff,

the human eye cannot resolve 4k, nor is much produced in it other than some porn.
and you cant download a film to your tablet/phone in 2seconds - the internal interfaces and flash chips are nowhere near that fast - it's all sales-agent lies.
how would such bandwidth originate anyway? are they saying 5g is autonomous of the other networks and relays data from tower to tower over whatever distance???
if not then it has to dump into the existing fiber lines at much lower speeds.

NO, it does not add up unless it's a complete lie and the tech is for something else.

[cdev]

If you look at the info on the rollout from the telecom industry, the scope of what they want to do is unprecedented.

"Is demand for 5G there?"

Don't forget, by all accounts, employment is likely to decline in the coming years as we head further into deindustrialization.

Not only are many businesses automating, because jobs will be scarcer many people may not be out and about as much to put it optimistically. This change is pretty much unavoidable and the consensus is that both developed and developing countries will see huge changes as the middle class, the main buyers of cell phones and plans, shrinks.

At least one cell phone exec has come out saying that with LTE still very recently deployed, he holds the opinion that 5G is unnecessary, not needed now.

A UK advisory group's framing of research on possible health issues involved with RF in cell phones has come under criticism for making allegedly misleading statements.

[cdev]

Think of it this way, all of the electronics people buy could be hosted elsewhere. Including automobiles. What if a car was just four wheels attached to servomotors, a GPS, and its control surfaces?

What if they simplified all of the electronics instruments, moved all the calulation elsewhere, and turned them all into hosted applications on a server somewhere, with yearly, monthly, or hourly subscriptions? I think this is likely what businesses of all kinds hope to do.

Lets also not forget that the RF will be an always available source of power to charge batteries, provide timing information, authorize or deny payments, tell us where to turn, who to date, where to eat, etc.

[Red Squirrel]

Too me I don't even take any advantage of 3G or 4G  as long as they continue having data caps.  Who cares if I can download at crazy speeds if I'm limited.   It's like if you bought the highest model Tesla but it was powered by a couple D cell batteries.  Yay super fast this is fun!  Oh and it's dead.

I don't like this whole idea of "Everything is connected" though.  I think a smart home could be nice if it's done right, where everything is connected to a local server but of course it's never going to be that way and we know this from existing things that everything always ends up being cloud based.  No thanks.  Rather keep control of my stuff.

[stj]

Don't forget, by all accounts, employment is likely to decline in the coming years as we head further into deindustrialization.

the traditional response to high unemployment has been to push a lie, start a war, and draft the unemployed off to the killing grounds.
watch very carefully - i suspect round3 is not far off.

[cdev]

That isn't profitable enough for the business leaders of today to like the idea. All the vendors of IOT stuff make additional money by selling data, for example, even if stationary, location data, They collect all sorts of info on the users of their stuff.

I don't like this whole idea of "Everything is connected" though.  I think a smart home could be nice if it's done right, where everything is connected to a local server but of course it's never going to be that way and we know this from existing things that everything always ends up being cloud based.  No thanks.  Rather keep control of my stuff.

[KaneTW]

i know your being sarcastic, but just to blast some lies/excuses i'v seen for this stuff,

the human eye cannot resolve 4k, nor is much produced in it other than some porn.
and you cant download a film to your tablet/phone in 2seconds - the internal interfaces and flash chips are nowhere near that fast - it's all sales-agent lies.
how would such bandwidth originate anyway? are they saying 5g is autonomous of the other networks and relays data from tower to tower over whatever distance???
if not then it has to dump into the existing fiber lines at much lower speeds.

NO, it does not add up unless it's a complete lie and the tech is for something else.

 

the human eye cannot resolve 4k, nor is much produced in it other than some porn.

Vastly depends on the DPI. On a cell phone? Sure, but nobody streams on a cellphone in 4k. On a 27" monitor? It can absolutely resolve 4k there.

Most big-name cinema is produced on 4k or 8k cameras and post-produced in 4k.

and you cant download a film to your tablet/phone in 2seconds - the internal interfaces and flash chips are nowhere near that fast - it's all sales-agent lies.

Sure, but nobody downloads movies. You stream it, and non-permanent storage is definitely fast enough. Especially in intermittent connections (subways, etc) when you buffer the movie while you have good signal and use up that buffer when you don't have a good signal.

how would such bandwidth originate anyway? are they saying 5g is autonomous of the other networks and relays data from tower to tower over whatever distance???

The fiber already exists for 4g uplinks. You just need to upgrade the uplinks to whatever the estimated load is going to be. It's not like it's copper that's already at its limit.

[cdev]

I don't think so. The influence of the poor will just be more and more self-limiting. Don't forget, they won't be able to do anything involving money. Will they walk everywhere?

Don't forget, by all accounts, employment is likely to decline in the coming years as we head further into deindustrialization.

the traditional response to high unemployment has been to push a lie, start a war, and draft the unemployed off to the killing grounds.
watch very carefully - i suspect round3 is not far off.

[cdev]

maybe the network will carry virtual reality nerve input data, which needs very low latency to work, (feelings are transmitted by timing aware nerve impulses which can be mimicked by electronics) imagine if people's sensory world was networked and their brains just needed to be kept in a very high tech jar in a climate controlled data center somewhere.

A scientist in Sydney, where Dave lives, is working on this. Currently so amputees can have prosthesis that convey all the feelings of real life.

But it doesn't take much imagination to see where that could take us.

[Echo88]

Tesla-Avatar [Check]
Thinks Climate Change is a hoax [Check]
Predicts World War 3 in the near future [Check]

If were playing 4 in a row here, then i only need to hear that there are Nazis on the dark side of the moon or that your brother develops street lamps in the UK and also visits this forum to win this game. 

[Red Squirrel]

That isn't profitable enough for the business leaders of today to like the idea. All the vendors of IOT stuff make additional money by selling data, for example, even if stationary, location data, They collect all sorts of info on the users of their stuff.

I don't like this whole idea of "Everything is connected" though.  I think a smart home could be nice if it's done right, where everything is connected to a local server but of course it's never going to be that way and we know this from existing things that everything always ends up being cloud based.  No thanks.  Rather keep control of my stuff.

Yeah this business model is sickening, and it's sickening that it's legal.  But does not surprise me, even our own governments are spying on us all the time.  There is no privacy.

[Buriedcode]

Wow.. this thread started badly and has gone full on conspiracy theory woo.  Its not even about 5G anymore, it just seems to be a platform for people to try and justify their fears about anything and everything.

cdev, have a holiday, take a break, relax.  5G isn't just another part of some grand plan to further radical political ideals, it is simply a response to the growing demands of connectivity.  If you do not require this connectivity, thats fine, many don't.

stj - honestly, without a /s I really can't tell if you're trolling.  Poe's law really is a thing   If you are serious, then I'm unsure what to say.  You clearly have some very strong fears of some deep conspiracy that I'm afraid to ask about. 

Here's an exercise that I think does us all some good.  For half an hour - assume you're wrong.  Just for 30 minutes, try and work out what assumptions you're making (which is hard to do since, by definition, assumptions are views we are unaware we have) and question it.  Sure, it rarely changes my views on things, but it can give one a chance to see things from a different angle.  We rarely come to opinions based on evidence, often it is our opinion that drives what we consider to be evidence, tis the human condition - we are not rational, that is why we have (and need) the scientific method.

edit: typos

[SiliconWizard]

That isn't profitable enough for the business leaders of today to like the idea. All the vendors of IOT stuff make additional money by selling data, for example, even if stationary, location data, They collect all sorts of info on the users of their stuff.

And this is probably what all this extra data bandwidth is for. The end-user direct data consumption will probably end up being a tiny fraction of the overall used data bandwidth.
The rest will probably be used by all the connected devices that will constantly push data.
That, and TV. All TV emitters, even DVB, are bound to disappear, freeing yet more frequency bands, that will be used for 5G/6G and whatever is next. It has already happened to make room for 4G, and the final round will happen. This will result in a gigantic waste of data bandwidth for video streaming (which is already using a lot, but that's just the beginning IMO - thus why I was joking with 8K video streaming on mobile phones - it's probably not even a joke in the end).

[stj]

i'm not trolling.
and for the record, i have no connection to the guy who had failing led streetlamps.