"Scientists and Doctors Demand Moratorium on 5G"

[IanMacdonald]

The physiological effect of E-M radiation is very distance dependent, since it works to the inverse square law. A mobile phone held to your ear subjects your brain to a very significant amount of radiation, far more than a transmitter some distance away. If anything is a concern, it ought to be this.

Though, I wonder if there isn't a case for householders to claim that a wayleave is needed by radio and TV stations to broadcast through their property. After all, if they would need permission to do this using sound or light, then why are radio waves exempt?

To argue that it's allowed because radio waves are inaudible and invisible would imply that it's also OK to use a private road for commercial deliveries so long as no-one sees you. 

[mtdoc]

Actually, recent research has figured out that oxidative stress causes changes in the expression of two genes, Fyn and c-Cbl, which impact cell differentiation at a crucial stage of gestation.

NANDblog, BTW, radiation also causes oxidative stress.. lots of it.. also the NAC (n-acetylcysteine) that I have explained about many times is radioprotective.. 

The a simple explanation, above also may explain autism.

Doubtful.

It's far more likely autism rates are on the rise because medical and educational professionals are becoming more aware of it. Notice how virtually no one had autism in before the 70s? That's because it was unknown before then and wasn't widely accepted until the 80s. Before then, children with high functioning autism were deemed to be eccentric and those with the lower functioning type retarded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_autism

Yes - the spike in Autism diagnosis is primarily (or possibly even entirely) due to an expansion of the criteria for diagnosis - so that in the past 20-30 years a whole range of children who would have previously been given a different diagnosis (e.g. developmental delay, mental retardation, etc) are now considered to be part of the expanded "Autism spectrum".  Combine that with a much greater awareness by clinicians and you get a graph like the one presented earlier.  It's fallacious thinking to presume that it represents a change in the incidence of a specific disease process.

[rfeecs]

It's not clear that their call for a moratorium on 5G expansion makes sense.  They claim that 5G will increase exposure levels:

5G leads to massive increase of mandatory exposure to wireless radiation
5G technology is effective only over short distance. It is poorly transmitted through solid material.
Many new antennas will be required and full-scale implementation will result in antennas every 10 to 12
houses in urban areas, thus massively increasing mandatory exposure.
With ”the ever more extensive use of wireless technologies,” nobody can avoid to be exposed.
Because on top of the increased number of 5G-transmitters (even within housing, shops and in hospitals)
according to estimates, ”10 to 20 billion connections” (to refrigerators, washing machines, surveillance
cameras, self-driving cars and buses, etc.) will be parts of the Internet of Things. All these together can
cause a substantial increase in the total, long term RF-EMF exposure to all EU citizens.

Some of the objectives of 5G are to reduce network power consumption by 90% and to increase IOT device battery life to as much as 10 years.  Right now it's very pie in the sky.

Just because you have more antennas and more micro cells doesn't mean more exposure.  With beam forming, lower power can be used instead of broadcasting a lot of power omnidirectionally.

5G at this moment is not really well defined.  So what does halting expansion mean?  Expansion of what exactly?

Here's a nice article with video about 5G:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/video/telecom/wireless/everything-you-need-to-know-about-5g

Interesting most of the comments on the IEEE article are about health effects.

[Vtile]

Not too interesting or curious that health is concern with new "everywhere" technology: radium, x-ray shoe machines, early radar accidents, lead, asbestos, PCB, DDT, bucket full of miracle medicines, PBA, microplastics... List is just too long in many ways.

PS. And every one of these are failures for science society and close by groups to predict beforehand, since they did became a problem in the first place.

[Dubbie]

So what are you proposing VTile?
A complete moratorium on ALL new technology in case it turns out to have adverse side effects?

[Vtile]

So what are you proposing VTile?
A complete moratorium on ALL new technology in case it turns out to have adverse side effects?

That would be the ideal, but of course it will never happen outside of the shangri-la.  .. But is there even a scientific institution (in universities) which primary field of study is the hazards of the technologies, I could bet that there isn't one in this globe.

[Dubbie]

I think you would fit in well in Lancaster County Pennsylvania 

[Vtile]

I think you would fit in well in Lancaster County Pennsylvania 

*meh* Invent something more clever next time.

[Mr. Scram]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=mobile+phone

The above is he broadest possible search which will bring up everything in pubmed on the subject- You can then put your mouse in the window where the search terms are and a drop down should appear with popular refinements on it, that will give you choices to explore.

Articles also have "related articles" links. You can save articles in your clipboard and download the citations you saved at the end of your session.

So you're not disengaging from the discussion?

[MrW0lf]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=mobile+phone

Did not take long to find this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29098666

Non-substance addiction (or behavioral addiction) covers pathological gambling, food addiction, internet addiction, and mobile phone addiction.

So before people start panicking about 5G

Nowdays you just do not get attention unless having a bit aggressive approach. Steering general public with various fears is standard practice. May be even necessary when countering addictions

As usual - truth is somewhere in the middle. Some take modified environment better than others. Some can eat mushrooms some get all funny and may even die. It all ok until those who are more sensitive are forced to something due to ignorance of others.

Also from strictly tech perspective communicating using non-addressed energy transfer is no less pathetic concept than burning fossil fuels. Maybe time to move on? Take time, read some bleeding edge research - maybe lucky work on next level tech concepts among the first.

[Red Squirrel]

To be fair I think it is well worth to investigate the effects, as long as it's done in a non biased fashion and perhaps via multiple independent studies.     Some places are doing "micro cells" where they want to put many antennas rather close to people instead of few in high towers.  All that RF does add up and there will be focal points where the power is double.  A cell antenna is about 45 watts.  Don't know if I'd want one in super close proximity to my house without multiple independent scientific studies saying it's safe. 

I do know that when we used to monitor cellular, we'd shut down the transmitters when workers were in the towers. 

[Mr. Scram]

To be fair I think it is well worth to investigate the effects, as long as it's done in a non biased fashion and perhaps via multiple independent studies.     Some places are doing "micro cells" where they want to put many antennas rather close to people instead of few in high towers.  All that RF does add up and there will be focal points where the power is double.  A cell antenna is about 45 watts.  Don't know if I'd want one in super close proximity to my house without multiple independent scientific studies saying it's safe. 

I do know that when we used to monitor cellular, we'd shut down the transmitters when workers were in the towers.

Many antennas in a small area might very well be safer than a few in high towers. More antennas and a smaller coverage area means less energy required to get anywhere.

Obviously you are going to get completely different exposures when you are right next to the transmitter, rather than even just 10 meters away, so turning equipment off seems sensible.

[edy]

Many antennas in a small area might very well be safer than a few in high towers. More antennas and a smaller coverage area means less energy required to get anywhere.

Obviously you are going to get completely different exposures when you are right next to the transmitter, rather than even just 10 meters away, so turning equipment off seems sensible.

Good point. If you need some "minimum" power to get service, say "X" watts is sufficient, then for me to get "X" watts in my house, that tower 1 km away is broadcasting at MUCH MUCH higher power than what I am using to allow me to get "X". However, my neighbour who lives half the distance from the tower (500m) is getting 4x more radiation power (4X). The guy who lives 1/4 of the distance (250m) is getting 16x the radiation. Power falls off at square of the distance.  My other two neighbours are being over-exposed because they do not need multiples of "X" power at their homes... It's overkill only because it has to be that way to cover the basic minimum at a certain distance to fill in "dead zones".

Meanwhile, if 5G is proposing more numbers and closer distance towers then on AVERAGE the population should technically get LESS power radiation being transmitted overall for the blanketed area. If we had 3 towers spread out instead of 1, say located at 0m (original tower), 500m (my neighbour) and 1km (next to my house) the towers would each need to transmit at much lower power to ensure "X" watts available at each location. That sounds more logical than to over-expose everyone within the "radius" of a tower because it has to reach the periphery with some minimum needed value.

It's like cooking to the edge of a steak with a blow-torch aimed at it's center rather than using even heat applied to it. In the first case, you get a completely burned center just to barely get enough heat dissipating to the edge to cook it adequately. In the second example, every bit of the steak is cooked more evenly and on AVERAGE the entire exposure is less with better taste.

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah that's true, if they can put many antennas and they only need to be like 1-5 watts, then it might actually be better.    An individual phone is about half a watt and can talk to the tower that is miles away so don't need much power to get distance. 

[HalFET]

So what are you proposing VTile?
A complete moratorium on ALL new technology in case it turns out to have adverse side effects?

That would be the ideal, but of course it will never happen outside of the shangri-la.  .. But is there even a scientific institution (in universities) which primary field of study is the hazards of the technologies, I could bet that there isn't one in this globe.

Prove penicillin is safe for humans without using it on a statistically significant population. One, two, three, go! 3 centuries later...

[Vtile]

So what are you proposing VTile?
A complete moratorium on ALL new technology in case it turns out to have adverse side effects?

That would be the ideal, but of course it will never happen outside of the shangri-la.  .. But is there even a scientific institution (in universities) which primary field of study is the hazards of the technologies, I could bet that there isn't one in this globe.

Prove penicillin is safe for humans without using it on a statistically significant population. One, two, three, go! 3 centuries later...

We both know that it is challenging if not impossible, especially in case of penicillin, which were one of the first 'modern' drugs. There is a good reason why the new medicines today go through long clinical test period, before they are released out in the wild.

[cdev]

Drug industry and pricing expert Donald W. Light has written extensively on the new vs. old medicines issue and the fact is, they are just pushing new because of profitmaking, often old drugs are as good or better. Sometimes new drugs are even dangerous.
Check out his web site -his findings are extraordinary
 http://pharmamyths.net

---
The push for profit is making common sense and balance into endangered species.

So what are you proposing VTile?
A complete moratorium on ALL new technology in case it turns out to have adverse side effects?

That would be the ideal, but of course it will never happen outside of the shangri-la.  .. But is there even a scientific institution (in universities) which primary field of study is the hazards of the technologies, I could bet that there isn't one in this globe.

Prove penicillin is safe for humans without using it on a statistically significant population. One, two, three, go! 3 centuries later...

We both know that it is challenging if not impossible, especially in case of penicillin, which were one of the first 'modern' drugs. There is a good reason why the new medicines today go through long clinical test period, before they are released out in the wild.

[rsjsouza]

So what are you proposing VTile?
A complete moratorium on ALL new technology in case it turns out to have adverse side effects?

That would be the ideal, but of course it will never happen outside of the shangri-la.  .. But is there even a scientific institution (in universities) which primary field of study is the hazards of the technologies, I could bet that there isn't one in this globe.

Prove penicillin is safe for humans without using it on a statistically significant population. One, two, three, go! 3 centuries later...

We both know that it is challenging if not impossible, especially in case of penicillin, which were one of the first 'modern' drugs. There is a good reason why the new medicines today go through long clinical test period, before they are released out in the wild.

With one exception: vaccines do not go through FDA testing with group control / placebo. Lately I have seen propaganda about newly released vaccines for absolutely everything (even ridiculous things such as shingles). That and the constant pressure to keep prescribing the highly ineffective flu vaccine.
It makes you think.

[tggzzz]

With one exception: vaccines do not go through FDA testing with group control / placebo. Lately I have seen propaganda about newly released vaccines for absolutely everything (even ridiculous things such as shingles). That and the constant pressure to keep prescribing the highly ineffective flu vaccine.
It makes you think.

Or not.
It seems this thread has accreted yet another standard conspiracy theory.

While all understanding is thinking, not all thinking is understanding.

[rsjsouza]

With one exception: vaccines do not go through FDA testing with group control / placebo. Lately I have seen propaganda about newly released vaccines for absolutely everything (even ridiculous things such as shingles). That and the constant pressure to keep prescribing the highly ineffective flu vaccine.
It makes you think.

Or not.
It seems this thread has accreted yet another standard conspiracy theory.

While all understanding is thinking, not all thinking is understanding.

It was not a far fetch from the topic being developed. Besides, nothing I said is speculation and I was careful to leave the reader to think critically about it. You do if you want it.

[MarkS]

I feel like I need to dust off my tinfoil hat just to view this thread!

[tggzzz]

I feel like I need to dust off my tinfoil hat just to view this thread!

Just so. Make sure the tinfoil hat is properly grounded!

[Cyberdragon]

I feel like I need to dust off my tinfoil hat just to view this thread!

Oops, I left mine in the microwave.

[cdev]

This paper is useful in understanding a key aspect of why pro-oxidant processes (in this case modulated via toxicants) are dangerous in another important context.

Chemically Diverse Toxicants Converge on Fyn and c-Cbl to Disrupt Precursor Cell Function
 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1790953/

Anyway, its useful to understanding perhaps some human behavior as well.

[TerraHertz]

It takes 12 years to develop cancer.

What? Do you even know what cancer is?

It's any single cell in which the replication regulation mechanism has broken, AND the telomerase production gene has been turned on, so the replicating cells don't run out of telomere fuse within 40 replications. Every day we all get cells that go haywire and start replicating, but the vast majority don't also get a telomerase switch-on, so the resulting tiny cluster of rogue cells goes senescent, stops replicating and dies before it even gets big enough to see with the naked eye.

The point is, that 'replication regulation mechanism' is very deeply complicated, and far from understood. There are layers and layers of inter-cellular communication via many different channels. Some of them are electrical (nerves), some via ion transfers through tiny specialized pores in cell walls - which act as ion pumps, with or opposed to the electrical potential maintained across the fatty, electrically insulating cell wall.

And everything that goes on in the vastly complicated molecular computing and construction machine that cells are, is ionic. Therefore highly sensitive to electric fields, both static and AC. Of course everyone here insisting EM couldn't possibly have any biological effect, surely knows about the field of microwave chemistry? In which reactions that don't normally occur can be made to happen (and shift reaction outcomes), by exciting reactant molecules with RF tuned to achieve specific modes of vibration of the molecules.

But of course this could never happen in living cells exposed to RF. Because we all use cell phones, wifi, etc, and so it must be safe. (This reasoning is irrational btw. Just to be clear.)

Here's a story.
In Australia we have an amphibious animal call a platypus. They hunt for worms in the sediment at the bottom of creeks. They don't do it randomly, they go straight for the buried worms. Using exquisitely sensitive electric field detectors in their famous duck-like bills. They can actually sense the electric fields produced by a worm's nervous system.
Funny thing. Apparently platypus simply won't breed in captivity. So far as I've heard, no one has any idea why.
But I bet I know. 'Captivity' will mean an enclosure in a zoo. With 240VAC electrical wiring all around, fluro lights, etc, probably all with no attempt made to Faraday cage shield it all. The E fields permeating a platypus zoo living environment are probably many orders of magnitude above what they'd encounter in nature. So Mr & Ms platypus have to put up with their equivalent of someone jack hammering right next to them, 24/7. No wonder they don't breed in captivity.

And another story.
In Jan this year I drove from Sydney to Melbourne in one day. It was a hot sunny day, and I had the driver window open the whole day, so my right hand was in full sunlight virtually the entire day. I happen to also have a skin pigmentation loss in some areas, such as my hands. (Which btw is an auto-immune problem, Vitaligo, there's zero family history of it, and mine developed after taking some flu shots in my 30s, read what you will into that.) Anyway, I got extremely bad sunburn on the un-pigmented area of my right hand. After that healed (about 2 weeks), lo and behold, a couple of small but definite skin cancers got big enough to be visible within a few more weeks. So no, "12 years" is rubbish. It takes exactly as long as some UV photons take to smash up some DNA, scrambling just the right bits of code in just the right way to produce a runaway cell line. Then becoming perceptible depends on replication rate, visibility, symptoms, etc.

One of them was susceptible to a natural cure (B17) and with that it regressed till completely gone over a couple of months. The other's growth was slowed down by it, but didn't stop. Different errors in the cell lines, different behavior. I just had that stubborn one frozen off with liquid nitrogen. Now only a healing scar.