Advice on cheap Linux computer for my kids

[Zero999]

So if you give them a machine with Windows or Mac OS on, then you could say you're forcing Windows or Mac OS on them.

Nonsense. There's nothing wrong with giving your children a Linux PC. There will be plenty of opportunities for them to learn to use Windows at school and nothing was said about forbidding them from using other computers. Being exposed to different software and platforms is a good thing.

Linux will not run many commercial software like MS Office (completely blows away OOo/Lo), Altium Designer, and a bunch of IDEs from many IC companies*.
Linux will not run modern games, unless being specifically ported to Linux, such as Valve games.
Linux will not run modern games smoothly, even ported, due to bad GPU support. AMD driver completely sucks, nVidia is better, but not as good as their Windows version.
Linux will not run DRM protected technology without infringing IP. You won't get legitimate decoders for any DRM protected technology for Linux.
Linux will not support latest digital gadgets, either from no driver support, or from no app support, or more likely, both.
And finally, using Linux as a desktop will give you a lot of miserable and confusing events when grub/kernel/x decides not to install properly in a seemingly peaceful apt-get upgrade.

Experience from a 7-year occasional Ubuntu desktop user (1-year Ubuntu only) who has also built at least 5 Ubuntu/Cent servers and currently maintaining 2 Ubuntu servers in everyday use, and who also worked with Arch Linux, ARM926 LFS from compiler to QT and is currently working on Cortex-A7 yocto while pulling off his hairs.

*: I know some really high end tools like Virtuoso only run on Linux, but that's not the point. I design chips occasionally as part of my coursework and research and I'm fine using Cadence suite on RHEL, but I guess a kid won't need to use Virtuoso at his/her house.

I know but not everyone needs all of that: people have differing needs, hence why there are different platforms. I use Linux exclusively at home and it suits me perfectly. I don't game so that's fine.

Some of it's a matter of taste too. I use MS Office at work and think it's poor, compared to Libra Office. I can't stand MS Office's patronising user interface and find each task takes more mouse clicks, than it does with Libra Office. Features wise they're pretty much comparable.

And lastly, if you're getting a computer for children to do their homework on, then not being able to run many games could be an advantage.

EDIT:
Another thing is, it's easier to get into coding on the Linux platform, not that it can't be done with Windows but it doesn't come with any development tools by default, like Linux does. Back in the day, when all personal computers came with a programming environment, lots of children got into coding that way. Now with Windows dominating, that's no longer the case.

[james_s]

When I was in college in the late 90s I deliberately used an ancient (even then) Mac Plus to do all of my homework. Partly because it had a laser printer rather than the primitive inkjet I had for my PC, and partly because there was little in the way of games on it to distract me, nor could it access the internet which was a relatively new thing at the time. As old as that thing was, even today I could use a similar system to produce documents that look every bit as professional as something written in the latest version of MS Word.

[eugenenine]

Also with tools like Arduino and such Linux is easier.  My son can simply walk downstairs, ask me a question and walk back up and windows has decided to deny permission to run Ardunio's IDE again.

Anyway to get back on topic.  If you haven't bought a PC in a long time you may be disappointed in the leveno's, they seem really cheapened down compared to the old IBM's.   I'd still assemble one rather than buy one and let the kids help.

[james_s]

The Lenovo is no IBM PS/2 in terms of build quality, but they're not bad either. We have loads of Thinkcentre M90 and M91 PCs at work running a mix of Win10 and Linux and for the most part they've been rock solid dependable machines. I still build my own desktops, though not very often, the one I built 2 years ago I expect to use for at least another decade but that's only because I like the building part, it doesn't work any better than an OEM box.

[edy]

When I gave my kids (9 and 7 year old girls, 4 year old boy) the old computer that I installed with Lubuntu (before it died, hence this thread).... they basically jumped into Chromium and used it to browse to their school's Google Docs/Classroom site. They had no idea what the difference was between Ubuntu, Windows, etc... it all seems to work the same. I think at that age we forget that the interfaces come naturally and for their basic usage any system is more than good enough as long as it has Chrome.

The first thing my 9 and 7 year old girls did was figure out how to change their desktop backgrounds and that was enough entertainment for them. Each had a separate login and user/password which they kept secret, which was their very own, which was exciting for them.... and when they logged in they would return to their desktop background they set up. For several weeks all they were doing was looking for new desktops in Google to change their backgrounds. Amazing what excites kids these days... they ended up fascinated with Poop emojis. 

They tried visiting some Flash-game sites to play games and guess what, it didn't work.     (I later installed Adobe Flash for Ubuntu but that's not the point). I was happy that I didn't need to worry about them playing games, they have enough crap to distract them on their tablets, TV and such. I don't want them playing games, I want them creating games... which is why we started working on Scratch and they managed to make some rudimentary stuff with my help, in Ubuntu, using Scratch.

So as far as computers go, if that $74 Thinkcentre M58p 6137 will do the job (Core2Duo 3.0GHz, 4G, 160G, DVD, Windows 10 Home) maybe I should just stick with that for now, put a second Ubuntu partition with dual-boot option and away she goes? I'll plug back in the WiFi USB dongle they were using before, a VGA monitor (I have a DVI-VGA adapter) and the USB mouse/keyboard and they will never know the difference. I may even install Ubuntu Studio this time, instead of Lubuntu, since it is a more powerful machine.

[mtdoc]

They tried visiting some Flash-game sites to play games and guess what, it didn't work.     (I later installed Adobe Flash for Ubuntu but that's not the point). I was happy that I didn't need to worry about them playing games, they have enough crap to distract them on their tablets, TV and such. I don't want them playing games, I want them creating games... which is why we started working on Scratch and they managed to make some rudimentary stuff with my help, in Ubuntu, using Scratch.

That's the biggest issue with computer use with my 8 and 10 year old boys.  They will spend all their time on game sites or worse, watching hours of youtube videos of others playing games- if I let them. Who knows what else they would find if they had unfettered browsing access.  Parental controls are essential. The built in parental controls are better on OSX than Windows.  Are there any parental controls on Ubuntu?

[rdl]

I actually still use a Core2Duo 3.0 GHz that I built it in 2008. Though it's no longer my primary computer it's used daily for pretty much everything except watching movies and playing the latest games. I think the Lenovo M58 will be fine for want you're planning.

[Zero999]

1. $74 = Lenovo ThinkCentre M58p 6137 Business Small Form Factor Computer Core2Duo 3.0GHz, 4G, 160G, DVD, Windows 10 Home.
Model: SFF 6137 C2D 3.0G/4G/160G/DVD/W10H.
MFT SKU: 6137AU8 Condition: refurbished Grade A. C2D/E8400/3.0G/DDR III/4G/SATA/160G/DVD/W10H MAR/BLACK


2. $124 = Dell OptiPlex GX755 mini-tower computer QuadCore 2.4GHz, 4G, 250G, DVDRW, Windows 10 Home.
Model: TW GX755 QC 2.4G/4G/250G/RW/W10H.
SKU: 392537 Condition: refurbished Grade A. QC/Q660/2.4G/DDR II/4G/SATA/250G/DVDRW/W10H MAR/BLACK
Stock: 1

3. $137 = Dell Precision T3400 Workstation. Model: TW Pre T3400.
SKU: 390277 MFT SKU: DELDKM88 Condition: refurbished Grade A. C2D/E8400/3.0G/8G/SATA/160G/DVD/TOWER/W10H MAR


4. $149 = LENOVO ThinkStation S20 4105 TW.
Model: TW 4105. SKU: 364139 MFT SKU: 4105R9F Condition: refurbished Grade A. QUADXEON/W3550/3.06G/DDR III/8G/SATA/250G/DVDRW/W10P MAR/Black


5. $162 = Lenovo ThinkCentre M90 3245 Small Form Factor i3 3.2GHz, 4G, 250G, DVDRW, Windows 10 Professional.
Model: SFF 3245 i3 3.2G/4G/250G/RW/W10P
SKU: 350455 Condition: refurbished Grade A. I3/3.2G/DDR III/4G/SATA/250G/DVDRW/W10P MAR/Black


6. $162 = Lenovo ThinkCentre M90p 3853 Ultra Small Form Factor USFF i5 3.2GHz, 4G, 250G, DVDRW, Windows 10 Professional.
Model: USFF 3853 i5 3.2G/4G/250G/RW/W10P.
SKU: 348736 MFT SKU: 3853RN9 Condition: refurbished Grade A. I5/650/3.2G/DDR III/4G/SATA/250G/DVDRW/WIN10P MAR/BLACK


Any thoughts, comments? Are these prices ok? I just want to split up the primary Windows partition and install some version of Ubuntu, and plug in a USB WiFi dongle so they can access the internet. I assume all of these desktops have VGA output (or is HDMI output only these days)? If the $74 machine is good enough, I'll just get that, unless you think it's not worth the money and I would get better value from the other machines listed.  Thanks for your help!

Any of those machines will be fine.

An old second hand computer will probably do. At home I still use an old 2006 era machine, I got from a work colleague for next to nothing, as my main PC and it's fine for basic use. I can't recall the exact specs. it's an early 64-bit machine with only 1GB of RAM. The only upgrade I did was a solid state hard drive, which was well worth it. At work I use a much newer Intel i3 based machine, which doesn't appear to be any faster for most tasks, than my crappy home PC.

[SingedFingers]

Watch out for the workstation class machines; they drink electricity

[james_s]

That's the biggest issue with computer use with my 8 and 10 year old boys.  They will spend all their time on game sites or worse, watching hours of youtube videos of others playing games- if I let them. Who knows what else they would find if they had unfettered browsing access.  Parental controls are essential. The built in parental controls are better on OSX than Windows.  Are there any parental controls on Ubuntu?

See that's sometihng I don't get at all. I'm as guilty as the next guy of wasting hours watching youtube videos, and I've spent plenty of time playing games, but what is the point of watching someone else play games? That's about as entertaining as watching paint dry.

[gnavigator1007]

*edited
Ended up in wrong thread
Sorry

[HoracioDos]

Hi.

This is my experience. My son is 9 years old and his notebook is an old dual core 2.x Ghz that used to be mine with Linux Mint 18 (Serena) Mate Edition. It's super stable and quite fast.

As he prefers my wife's ipad, he still doesn't care if his NB is on linux or not. He knows that windows's software doesn't run there so he doen't download everything he sees. I think there are quite less virus chances.
You can play Minecraft and install mods and more complex games can be played on Steam. Almost every browser is available to watch Youtube and check webmail. I prefer Opera (Adblock & VPN built in).

Netflix can be played now with Firefox. Spotify and Skype clients are also available. There's a lot of educative software and programming languages. He is starting with Scratch. LibreOffice is fine for his homework. New ribbon interface is available now.

Finally, the most important lesson: There's life without Windows and there's one misterious thing called command prompt.

[james_s]

Yuck, that godforsaken ribbon has now spread to LibreOffice? I sure hope it stays optional, I've had to use it at work since 2010 and I still hate it. Extra clicks for everything.

[retiredcaps]

1. $74 = Lenovo ThinkCentre M58p 6137 Business Small Form Factor Computer Core2Duo 3.0GHz, 4G, 160G, DVD, Windows 10 Home.
Model: SFF 6137 C2D 3.0G/4G/160G/DVD/W10H.
MFT SKU: 6137AU8 Condition: refurbished Grade A. C2D/E8400/3.0G/DDR III/4G/SATA/160G/DVD/W10H MAR/BLACK

I bought a similar Compaq/HP configuration with E8400, 0GB DRAM, no hard drive and Win 7PRO license for $10 CDN.  The only reason I needed  Win 7 (now upgraded to Win 10) is for a tax program I run.  While the tax program can run using WINE, the configuration is very finicky and very time consuming to retest every new update whether it be WINE, MONO, .NET or the tax program itself.  Something always seems to break.

One great thing about running linux is that it requires very little disk space for its OS/programs (typically less than 5GB).  Thus, I can buy used SSDs for cheap.  For example, I got a 30GB SSD for $5 CDN.

PS. I liked the Compaq/HP SFF and its build quality and serviceability so much, I bought 4 of them for $10 each.

[HoracioDos]

Are there any parental controls on Ubuntu?

No there isn't something like Net Nanny.

A few years ago I installed a proxy (raspberry pi) to filter web searches and block pictures but it took me a lot of time and never worked as it should. Google's parental control is a shame and it's almost impossible to block images. We use Duckduck a lot.

Best thing I've found is a well known and discussed policy about internet usage.

[edy]

1. $74 = Lenovo ThinkCentre M58p 6137 Business Small Form Factor Computer Core2Duo 3.0GHz, 4G, 160G, DVD, Windows 10 Home.
Model: SFF 6137 C2D 3.0G/4G/160G/DVD/W10H.
MFT SKU: 6137AU8 Condition: refurbished Grade A. C2D/E8400/3.0G/DDR III/4G/SATA/160G/DVD/W10H MAR/BLACK

I bought a similar Compaq/HP configuration with E8400, 0GB DRAM, no hard drive and Win 7PRO license for $10 CDN.  The only reason I needed  Win 7 (now upgraded to Win 10) is for a tax program I run.  While the tax program can run using WINE, the configuration is very finicky and very time consuming to retest every new update whether it be WINE, MONO, .NET or the tax program itself.  Something always seems to break.

One great thing about running linux is that it requires very little disk space for its OS/programs (typically less than 5GB).  Thus, I can buy used SSDs for cheap.  For example, I got a 30GB SSD for $5 CDN.

PS. I liked the Compaq/HP SFF and its build quality and serviceability so much, I bought 4 of them for $10 each.

Nice score... how do you find this stuff so cheap? I may have to just shell out a bit more because I don't have the time to go around or patience to troubleshoot or add components. Awesome you could find them. 

[Zero999]

Yuck, that godforsaken ribbon has now spread to LibreOffice? I sure hope it stays optional, I've had to use it at work since 2010 and I still hate it. Extra clicks for everything.

Looks reasonable to me:
https://i0.wp.com/blog.documentfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/LibreOfficeDev-Writer-Notebook-Bar.png?ssl=1

[james_s]

They still have the traditional menu there too, I can deal with that.

It's Microsoft's insistence on forcing the ribbon down everyone's throats and eliminating the existing menu that irritated me. Just give me a choice, everyone can be happy.

[eugenenine]

Lots of people asked for it.  Hopefully they do have enough sense to let it be turned off.

[mtdoc]

LibreOffice is fine for his homework.

We've been using OpenOffice. The problem we're having is that some teachers insist on using only the latests MS Word format for assignments that need editing at home.  OpenOffice does not always handle these.  Is LibreOffice better?

No there isn't something like Net Nanny.

I hadn't seen Net Nanny before. It looks like overkill for our household - and I'm not a fan of subscription models.

The built in parental controls on MacOS are pretty good. The parental controls on my boys Android tablets is ok but not great.  Windows built in controls are marginal.

[edy]

As long as they don't add Clippy, I'll be ok.... 

[retiredcaps]

I may have to just shell out a bit more because I don't have the time to go around or patience to troubleshoot or add components.

You nailed it.  Everyone values time and money to their own criteria.

By the time, I drove to get the $10 Compaq SFF, $5 SSDs, $2 DDR3 memory, etc, it would probably work out to the same $75 you are paying.  I do try to aggregate errands, visits, etc with my kijiji finds.

[james_s]

Sometimes you get lucky, but I've found that most of the time when I actually need something, there are none to be found but after I buy one I then see loads of them for sale for half what I paid.

Last year I sold a complete Pentium4 tower with a monitor, video card, fancy sound board, etc, at one time a fairly high end system for $20 because I was tired of stepping around it. Older desktop PCs are dirt cheap in general but if you just want to get one now, 75 bucks is not a big deal unless you have much more free time than money.

[HoracioDos]

We've been using OpenOffice. The problem we're having is that some teachers insist on using only the latests MS Word format for assignments that need editing at home.  OpenOffice does not always handle these.  Is LibreOffice better?

LibreOffice and OpenOffice are almost the same and yes, there are some compatibility issues saving documents in MS formats like .docx, xlsx, etc. If you write simple documents you can avoid them.

You can use Microsoft or Google web documents, but again, as their features are quite simple the result is also simple. There is a buzz that WPS Office (Chinese development) previously known as Kingsoft Office has solved these issues, but I have the same feeling about Ubuntu Kylin and WSP, that someone is spying on me.

The built in parental controls on MacOS are pretty good. The parental controls on my boys Android tablets is ok but not great.  Windows built in controls are marginal.

As I wrote before, the best thing I've found is a well known and discussed family policy about internet usage.

[edy]

Somebody ended up giving me a couple of old laptops found in their basement...

1. Some GateWay Pentium 4 machine.... I tried to power it up, nothing, dead. I opened it up and got to the motherboard... multiple CAPS were blown/leaking. Not worth repairing, I pulled some components maybe can be useful later.

2. An old IBM ThinkPad 380D, powered up....  Would initially not boot, gave error message.... turned out it was a CMOS battery issue so I popped the lid and replaced the coin-cell Lithium battery. Booted into Win95. Pentium (r) 24 MB RAM, 1.35 GB hard drive. http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:380D



So what do I do with this antique? My kids can't use it... Perhaps I can flip it to some collector or trade in for a newer machine. Any ideas if this thing is worth a trade or eBay sale? It came with a bunch of networking bits, PCMCIA cards and such and some pre-installed office software.

I could put MAME on there and a bunch of old ROMs... make it a portable arcade machine. Because it lacks USB I can't even use it to type stuff in MSWorks and copy over files. CD-ROM is read only. It has a 1.44" floppy but no other machine has a drive. Perhaps through network I can transfer but more time than worth doing.