Advice on starting career please

[sean0118]

Hi everyone,

I graduated from uni at the end of last year with good marks and a working project to show I have practical experience. I've since been trying to get into a power electronics/transformer design type role. The problem is there doesn't seem to be any openings at the moment.

However, I've heard of a possible free position at a compliance/testing company that is sort of local. As far as I can tell the position would be closer to a technician than an engineering one and below average in pay.

Now I'm just trying to work out whether I should consider this position? It's appealing in that it would be fairly hands on and I might gain experience with new types of test equipment and learn about compliance regulations. However, would I be in danger of getting stuck in that field and struggle to move across to a design role? Or is any job better than no job?  Or should I start looking overseas?   

[Mechanical Menace]

You need to feed yourself now, the technician role will be more relevant to your end goal than stacking shelves or parking shopping trolleys.

You'll only get stuck there if A) nothing in your preferred field comes up, in which case you've at least landed somewhere in demand or B) you actually end up liking the job. Is either of them a bad thing?

[Howardlong]

Hi everyone,

I graduated from uni at the end of last year with good marks and a working project to show I have practical experience. I've since been trying to get into a power electronics/transformer design type role. The problem is there doesn't seem to be any openings at the moment.

However, I've heard of a possible free position at a compliance/testing company that is sort of local. As far as I can tell the position would be closer to a technician than an engineering one and below average in pay.

Now I'm just trying to work out whether I should consider this position? It's appealing in that it would be fairly hands on and I might gain experience with new types of test equipment and learn about compliance regulations. However, would I be in danger of getting stuck in that field and struggle to move across to a design role? Or is any job better than no job?  Or should I start looking overseas?   

In my view, any job is better than no job, unless you're retired of course.

As an employer, seeing a blank space on a resume/CV is going to set alarm bells ringing.

No harm in looking elsewhere while you're in this job, and there is no harm in being honest, indicating to prospective new employers that you are looking, and are qualified, for something more challenging.

You are at the beginning of your career. It's not unusual to flip jobs frequently early on, I know I did, I went from an EE degree to 18 months developing niche office software on minis, Macs and PCs, to a year on automatic test equipment embedded code development, a further year on network design software, to a year in enterprise retail banking solutions, to developing and troubleshooting financial trading systems. Soldering irons, electronic design, various assembly languages, Pascal, Basic, C, 4GLs, enterprise networks, and enterprise computing all in the space of five years.

A career path can be pretty malleable as long as you have the motivation and can get past the dreaded self-serving HR dragons who seem to be absurdly omnipotent these days.

[sean0118]

Thanks to both of you, they are all good points. The role does sound interesting to me so I'll find out a bit more and apply if I can.

No harm in looking elsewhere while you're in this job, and there is no harm in being honest, indicating to prospective new employers that you are looking, and are qualified, for something more challenging.

When is the correct time to bring something like this up and how do you word it? I just don't want them to think I'll leave weeks into the job.

[Howardlong]

I didn't word it well. Rarely good to tell a current employer you're looking somewhere else. I meant being honest about wanting to have something more challenging with the new prospective employer not your current one.

Usually the only time to tell the current employer is when you have the new job in the bag when you hand in your resignation. They might offer you reasons to stay, but be careful, such carrot dangling can often be empty promises, but it depends on the employer.

Also be wary of moving jobs too often and too soon. It's perhaps of less importance at the beginning of a career, but if your resume/Cv shows you changing jobs every six months it's generally not a good sign. It may take an employer six months to train you to be productive and add value.

As an aside, the saddest thing is that many HR honchos nowadays often see frequent churn rate as a good thing - but usually only on their terms. I don't think there's any pride in running a company that uses schemes like stack ranking to artificially manage people out, in fact such schemes are shameful, it shows that the company is unable to motivate their employees by anything other than a whip. Worse, it indicates that the HR department has become self-serving, after all, if there's no hiring and firing, all that's left is the payroll, unless they outsourced that too of course!

[sean0118]

ah ok, I get what you mean now, that makes sense. I'll let you know how it goes. 

[Galenbo]

However, I've heard of a possible free position at a compliance/testing company that is sort of local. As far as I can tell the position would be closer to a technician than an engineering one and below average in pay.

Now I'm just trying to work out whether I should consider this position? It's appealing in that it would be fairly hands on and I might gain experience with new types of test equipment and learn about compliance regulations.

And you will explore an unknown market, with unknown customers, unknown supplyers, unknown niche markets their special demand...
Build your network there. That company, or some stakeholder of it can become your customer later on.

However, would I be in danger of getting stuck in that field and struggle to move across to a design role? Or is any job better than no job?  Or should I start looking overseas?   

Every specialisation you will do (it's what brings the real money) will get you stuck in that field. Every change of field, or change of specialisation in that field, will cost you money (or prevent a raise)
So you will only be "stuck" if you refuse to earn less money for a while (or want the raise instead of no raise in the new field)

[Smokey]

I work with a guy that back in the day took a technician position because it was all he could find at the time, and ended up being engineering manager of the whole company.  I say take the job and rock their socks off.  Don't just adjust pots all day but learn everything about the products and what the company does.  That impresses people, and if it doesn't then take the knowledge (and industry experience) and move on.  This is all assuming the company makes something interesting.

[ManCave]

Take the technician job!

...and work on your own projects at home! Build stuff! Design stuff (if you can)! In a year or two you'll be miles ahead of yourself and any fresh graduate.

I remember sitting in a job interview with products I designed and built, making the interview an easy conversation and getting the job a breeze!

Just keep an eye on jobs available and find out what your ideal job would be. Figure out what experience/knowledge you need to have to get it and work towards it!

Good Luck!
Filip

[tggzzz]

I remember sitting in a job interview with products I designed and built, making the interview an easy conversation and getting the job a breeze!

As an interviewer I would use that as a strong signal that, simply because it pleased you, you did more than was necessary in the field. If I could give you appropriate opportunities, then I would presume you would grab them and run.

It helps if your home projects stretch you so far that, in hindsight, you made mistakes - because that shows you evaluate and learn.

[sean0118]

Thanks for the replies everyone, all good points.

I'm not too sure what's happening with the technician position I mentioned, I'm waiting to hear back from the recruiter. It's possible they have decided to remove the position, but we'll see. But at least I can keep a lookout now for more technician roles. 

...and work on your own projects at home! Build stuff! Design stuff (if you can)! In a year or two you'll be miles ahead of yourself and any fresh graduate.

Yep, that sounds like good advice. I'm slowly working on building up a collection,  I've got my final year project which was a high voltage LLC converter (I've been meaning to post some pics of it on the forum as I got some tips from forum members). But at the moment I'm designing a battery charger to increase my knowledge of microcontrollers, which I guess is my first proper design project at home. Oh, and I've got a Buck converter I made in 2nd year, that I can now spot about 5 major design errors in lol...  but it did work sort of ok... 

I work with a guy that back in the day took a technician position because it was all he could find at the time, and ended up being engineering manager of the whole company.  I say take the job and rock their socks off.  Don't just adjust pots all day but learn everything about the products and what the company does.  That impresses people, and if it doesn't then take the knowledge (and industry experience) and move on.  This is all assuming the company makes something interesting.

That's a pretty neat story, thanks for the advice as well. As far as I know, the company doesn't actually make products themselves, they offer compliance testing services to other companies.  Although, I guess there is a fair chance that I would see a large range of interesting products that way. 

[sean0118]

Ok the technician role I previously mentioned didn't eventuate into anything and I'm still looking for work.

But I do have a second round interview for a Product Quality Engineering position. It seems this position also has a large proportion of hands on technical work. One of the main responsibility of the position is identifying and investigating faults of product returns.

Now here's my question, what do I need to consider with a role like this? I have a bachelor degree but no certificates for technician work. Am I legally qualified in Australia to test things like mains powered electronics? 

I'm hoping there would be a degree of supervision available from an experienced engineer, but I'm not sure, I'll have to find out more when I go to the interview.

 

[IanB]

Now here's my question, what do I need to consider with a role like this? I have a bachelor degree but no certificates for technician work. Am I legally qualified in Australia to test things like mains powered electronics?

That would be the company's corporate responsibility, not your personal responsibility. As long as you are their employee you are simply performing whatever duties are assigned to you. Your employer is responsible for making sure its employees are adequately trained to do their jobs. So don't even worry about it.

[EEVblog]

Now I'm just trying to work out whether I should consider this position? It's appealing in that it would be fairly hands on and I might gain experience with new types of test equipment and learn about compliance regulations. However, would I be in danger of getting stuck in that field and struggle to move across to a design role? Or is any job better than no job?  Or should I start looking overseas?   

Take the job and then keep looking. You will be in no real less of a struggle to get a design job than you are now.
Personally I'd look upon that rather favorably that you didn't sit on your arse waiting for the ideal job to come along. It shows that you are willing get your hands dirty and aren't "above" doing certain jobs. Design jobs don't always smell like roses.
Who knows, maybe the tech role will lead to something else within the company?

[VK3DRB]

Now here's my question, what do I need to consider with a role like this? I have a bachelor degree but no certificates for technician work. Am I legally qualified in Australia to test things like mains powered electronics? 

You can test or work on anything you want that is not permanently connected into the mains. Despite having a degree in electronics, the Electrical Trades Union and their comrades in the Labor government have seen to it electronics engineers, even with many years' experience are banned from even wiring up a light switch or a mains socket in their own home. From what I have seen EE's tend to do a better and safer wiring job compared to the many cowboy electricians who have their ticket. An ex-colleague who has an EE degree with many years' experience wanted to get an electrician's license. He was told by government do-gooders he would have to start an apprenticeship from year 1.

It reminds me of the top brain surgeon of South Vietnam before the communists invaded. After he and his family fled to Australia, the Australian Medical Association refused to recognise his extensive qualifications even to be a GP, so he worked as a tram driver on $90 per week in Melbourne (back in 1976). The AMA was only protecting their interests, not the interests on the public or of this gifted man.

In any case you can do whatever you want on equipment that has a mains power plug attached. If you open up a mains powered thinga-me-jig and work on it, there no no-one in the nanny state to stop you. Of course when working on mains equipment always work where there in an ELCB (also called an RCD) for your own safety. Or use a 1:1 isolation transformer, ie: 240VAC in, 240 VAC out, so there is no current part between the active line and earth.

Which state are you in?

[sean0118]

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate it. 

In any case you can do whatever you want on equipment that has a mains power plug attached. If you open up a mains powered thinga-me-jig and work on it, there no no-one in the nanny state to stop you. Of course when working on mains equipment always work where there in an ELCB (also called an RCD) for your own safety. Or use a 1:1 isolation transformer, ie: 240VAC in, 240 VAC out, so there is no current part between the active line and earth.

Ok good to know, that's kind of what I was expecting, but great to have it confirmed. I'm reasonably confident at fault finding, I repair my own stuff all the time, but I'm not experienced with testing live 240V. I'm going to look into the role further and see how much mentoring/supervision there is and what type of test equipment they have.

Which state are you in?

Victoria 

[VK3DRB]

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate it. 

In any case you can do whatever you want on equipment that has a mains power plug attached. If you open up a mains powered thinga-me-jig and work on it, there no no-one in the nanny state to stop you. Of course when working on mains equipment always work where there in an ELCB (also called an RCD) for your own safety. Or use a 1:1 isolation transformer, ie: 240VAC in, 240 VAC out, so there is no current part between the active line and earth.

Ok good to know, that's kind of what I was expecting, but great to have it confirmed. I'm reasonably confident at fault finding, I repair my own stuff all the time, but I'm not experienced with testing live 240V. I'm going to look into the role further and see how much mentoring/supervision there is and what type of test equipment they have.

Which state are you in?

Victoria 

OK I know the Victorian electronics scene well because I live here.

The most electronics-centric area is eastern suburbs, especially the Notting Hill area. Heaps of companies around the area. There is not much in the west (except a few power companies), north-west (except EMC Technologies)  or north (except Continental). In the outer east there is Startronics and a few other players like RF Tech and others. If you like high voltage, consider Schneider in Benalla who do transformers and the like. Rent in the Benalla is cheap and the air is pristine.... it's a good place to live but there is no night life.

A good start is to call Australiawide in Syndal, and speak to Roy Dickson. Check out their website. Although he works for an agency, he deals with engineers and technicians and is a really nice bloke. Also check out local companies who avoid agencies... Xtralis, Invetech and others. Seek.com.au is OK, but sometimes it is better to bypass them and speak to a human first, before they advertise. There are plenty of small players around the Mount Waverley area too. ABB is another one.

Consider going to the US? The US has a special visa for young Australian people (< 30 years old I think) who are qualified, to live and work there. The three areas to check out is Austin, Texas (I lived there and know the place pretty well), Silicon Valley in California, and Research Triangle Park in North Carolina. Tesla in California is always looking for new engineers. You never know if you don't give it a go.

Also even locally it might be worth getting any job vaguely related to what you want to do. A couple of years' experience up your sleeve will help a lot. It is easier to get a new job when you already have one than being unemployed looking for a job.

I know plenty of people with EE degrees who have worked as technicians. This is a bonus. EE's who have experience in the more practical side like servicing electronics are generally far more useful than those who cannot solder to save themselves. I have seen many Mech Engs and EE's who, due to lack of servicing experience, end up designing maintenance disasters in their careers. Technician work can be very fulfilling too and a good one is worth his weight in gold and gets paid accordingly.

One word of caution. It is easy to get typecast in specific roles in the electronics industry. Don't spend too many years in a satisfactory job, otherwise you might end up there forever.

[coppice]

One word of caution. It is easy to get typecast in specific roles in the electronics industry. Don't spend too many years in a satisfactory job, otherwise you might end up there forever.

Staying in one electronics job forever is a rare option these days.

[eas]

If you can't find the job you think you should have now, it could be luck, or it could be that there is something important you don't understand. If it is luck, then its a numbers game, and you just need to try enough times/for long enough.

The thing is, it sounds like you've been trying for 6 months. If your problem was luck, that would seem to be enough time to have at least come close to getting what you consider to be a suitable job.  So, more likely, then, that there is something important you don't understand.

One way to figure that out is to keep at it, but if you haven't figured it out by now, why will things be different in 6 months?

Another option is to try something new/different. In some ways, it doesn't really matter what, as long as its new/different, because that will inevitably lead to you learning things you don't know now, which will shift your perspective in ways you can't predict now.

So, what to do?  Well, plenty of options, but a paying job that is related to your training and interests sounds perfect, for the time being. No telling where it could lead. Dive in, do your best, learn everything you can. Unless its a truly horrible fit, you should be able to get at least 6 months out of the novelty. At that point, you'll either have a pretty good idea if it is somewhere you want to stay for a while, in which case your path should be fairly clear. At 6 months, if you are ambivalent, or you are sure you don't want to stay, you can/should start looking for a new job. It will take a little while to gear up, a little while to get interviews, a little while to get job offers. By the time you'll be ready to start a new job, you'll probably be close to 1 year at your first job.

The biggest mistake is always spending too long doing the same damn thing, whether that's looking for the "right" job, or muddling along in something that isn't the right job (often because you are spending too long looking for the "right" job). When in doubt, different is better.

[sean0118]

OK I know the Victorian electronics scene well because I live here.

The most electronics-centric area is eastern suburbs, especially the Notting Hill area. Heaps of companies around the area. There is not much in the west (except a few power companies), north-west (except EMC Technologies)  or north (except Continental). In the outer east there is Startronics and a few other players like RF Tech and others. If you like high voltage, consider Schneider in Benalla who do transformers and the like. Rent in the Benalla is cheap and the air is pristine.... it's a good place to live but there is no night life.

A good start is to call Australiawide in Syndal, and speak to Roy Dickson. Check out their website. Although he works for an agency, he deals with engineers and technicians and is a really nice bloke. Also check out local companies who avoid agencies... Xtralis, Invetech and others. Seek.com.au is OK, but sometimes it is better to bypass them and speak to a human first, before they advertise. There are plenty of small players around the Mount Waverley area too. ABB is another one.

Consider going to the US? The US has a special visa for young Australian people (< 30 years old I think) who are qualified, to live and work there. The three areas to check out is Austin, Texas (I lived there and know the place pretty well), Silicon Valley in California, and Research Triangle Park in North Carolina. Tesla in California is always looking for new engineers. You never know if you don't give it a go.

Also even locally it might be worth getting any job vaguely related to what you want to do. A couple of years' experience up your sleeve will help a lot. It is easier to get a new job when you already have one than being unemployed looking for a job.

I know plenty of people with EE degrees who have worked as technicians. This is a bonus. EE's who have experience in the more practical side like servicing electronics are generally far more useful than those who cannot solder to save themselves. I have seen many Mech Engs and EE's who, due to lack of servicing experience, end up designing maintenance disasters in their careers. Technician work can be very fulfilling too and a good one is worth his weight in gold and gets paid accordingly.

One word of caution. It is easy to get typecast in specific roles in the electronics industry. Don't spend too many years in a satisfactory job, otherwise you might end up there forever.

Thanks VK3DRB (sorry for my very late reply) 

I've had two interviews recently, should hear back within the next week. The suspense....   

I know Roy, he's great, but when I spoke to him a few months back he didn't have any grad jobs at all. It seems to be a tough time to find technical grad jobs atm, the majority of people who graduated from my year are unemployed or working in sales/junior managment roles. 

I've checked out some of the companies you list, but I can't find an 'RF Tech' in Melbourne. Has it changed names?

[sarepairman2]

If you can't find the job you think you should have now, it could be luck, or it could be that there is something important you don't understand. If it is luck, then its a numbers game, and you just need to try enough times/for long enough.

The thing is, it sounds like you've been trying for 6 months. If your problem was luck, that would seem to be enough time to have at least come close to getting what you consider to be a suitable job.  So, more likely, then, that there is something important you don't understand.

One way to figure that out is to keep at it, but if you haven't figured it out by now, why will things be different in 6 months?

Another option is to try something new/different. In some ways, it doesn't really matter what, as long as its new/different, because that will inevitably lead to you learning things you don't know now, which will shift your perspective in ways you can't predict now.

So, what to do?  Well, plenty of options, but a paying job that is related to your training and interests sounds perfect, for the time being. No telling where it could lead. Dive in, do your best, learn everything you can. Unless its a truly horrible fit, you should be able to get at least 6 months out of the novelty. At that point, you'll either have a pretty good idea if it is somewhere you want to stay for a while, in which case your path should be fairly clear. At 6 months, if you are ambivalent, or you are sure you don't want to stay, you can/should start looking for a new job. It will take a little while to gear up, a little while to get interviews, a little while to get job offers. By the time you'll be ready to start a new job, you'll probably be close to 1 year at your first job.

The biggest mistake is always spending too long doing the same damn thing, whether that's looking for the "right" job, or muddling along in something that isn't the right job (often because you are spending too long looking for the "right" job). When in doubt, different is better.

i disagree, I had to wait for 1 year to work for the company I wanted to work in. It was just a waiting game. I was not doing anything wrong.

It could go either way. I see it like fishing.

[sean0118]

I've had two interviews recently, should hear back within the next week. The suspense....   

Ok, both of these resulted in job offers within 48 hours of each other. The one I accepted is Government and non-military, that's all I'm saying.   

After 8 months looking for work it feels good to now have an exciting job lined up. I also want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. 

[tggzzz]

Congratulations, good luck, have fun, and start planning your next step (whatever that might be!)