Actually I see what you mean now, as if you do touch a "hot" from an isolated source you won't get a shock anyway so what a GFCI would normally protect you from won't do anything in this case. But when I tested I did get the isolated ungrounded GFCI to trip in some situations but guess those would be hard to replicate in a device test setup.
I would have figured that you'd still want to tie the isolated "neutral" to isolated "ground" though to follow mains convention. Wouldn't it still be considered isolated as it's not referencing earth ground? At least that's what I was thinking of doing for the isolated AC PSU I will be building, so that the output outlets work exactly the same as a household setup just that they are isolated. In my case the transformer has a centre tap so probably set it up like a split phase system. If I plug a piece of equipment into it that has a fault where it's using the ground as a return path it should in theory trip the GFCI indicating there is something wrong with that device being tested though I have to test that now as maybe I'm wrong...
Hi RS,
Nooooooooooooo. no neutral to ground bond at the output... no no no....
You need to consider things in more detail.
If you produce electricity, there is a current flowing from one point to another. If you have a pterol driven generator - for example - and it is not connected to earth in any way, and is sat on a rubber mat (in case the neutral is conencted to the chassis) then you have an electricity producing device. this is a completely independent source of energy to any other electricity souce. (current source) and not conencted in any way. That is the key - it is completely independent.
Another example. Sit 2 batteries on the desk, one 12v and one 6V. nothing connecting them together. Now connect an led or bulb or your DVM on V between positive on one battery and negative on the other (or any terminal on one to any terminal on the other. Will the led light or the bulb light ?. (Clue -
- no it will not. Will there be any reading on the voltmeter - no there will not. Why ? becuase there is no circuit - no current can flow. Each battery is a power source, but each battery is completely independent of each other. They are completely ISOLATED energy sources.
Now, connect the negatives together. Then use the bulb or voltmeter, will the bulb light ? will there be a reading on the voltmenter ?.
Yes, in both cases. - there is now a PD of 6v (due to one battery being 12v and the other 6v) between the two positive terminals on the batteries as the negatives form a 'common' point. - the 6V will be negative or positive on your meter depending which way it is connected to the positive terminals. - the circuits are no longer ISOLATED.
If you do the same with 2 x 12v batteries then no PD is present across the postives with the negatives connected together.
Ok. when you use an isolation transformer, there is no PHYSICAL connection between the primary and the seconday. The current is induced in the secondary as an INDEPENDENT source of power. - INDEPENDENT is the key - it has no physical connection or reference to the input. Like the batteries - unless you have a common reference / connection - then no current can or will flow beween the two.
As I said before, in a normal mains supply, the Neutral is connected by tying it to ground EARTH at the substation or the house. If forms a reference point. There would be no such thing as 'Neutral' at all unless the power company did this.
As neutral is tied to ground, current can flow between L and N and also L and E.
Now, take our transformer output - we have two terminals, they are NOT live and Neutral !. They are not 'referenced' to anything. It is impossible for current to flow between either terminal and Ground. Ground / the earth is not a source or sink of electricity. It is only that the N is tied to ground as to make it a common reference point.
Our tranformer has a full independent output that is NOT connected to L N or E.
No matter what you touch on the output, no current can flow to the input side L N or E. Not possible. - like the two batteries sat on the desk not connected to each other. the can be no current flow from one terminal on one battery to any terminal on the other battery.
Earth electrical Ground is not some magical connection that exists for all electrical sources. It is CREATED by the power company - it does not exist in nature before this - It is man made. - out TXFMR output does not have this hence no current can flow to ground in any circumstances. Current can ONLY flow between the two out terminals of the transformer. THIS IS WHAT WE WANT. We want an ISOLATED output.
IF you connect one of the terminals to ground (to create a 'Neutral') - as neither output terminal IS a 'Neutral' before you do this- (Neutral is a concept until it is created.) then you have completely removed ALL isolation. The output now is referenced to INPUT Neutral / and therefore Ground(E). there is NOW a path from L to Ground - just the same as without isolation and therefore completely useless.
---------------------------------
The isolated output is NOT and should no be referenced to input Neutral or Earth. It should have no possible current path to earth, we do not want any current path to earth.
---------------------------------
as for the RCD on the input in a house without a ground....
In simple terms, it is possible for an rcd on your input to trip without a house ground due to the neutral ground tie at the substation. (it will usually need more current than normal and be hit and miss unless specified accordingly)
---------------------------------
on another note -
IN the UK, electrical connections are keyed at the socket - as in Canada I believe , and the states. so you should (unless you have a wiring fault) always have a known L on the plug lead to equipment and a known N.
I do not know if you are aware of this, but in most of Europe (I am in Portugal at the moment) the plug can be connected to the electrical socket either way around. Earth is always in the same place, L and N is not !. that is perfectly normal here. A lot of techies from the UK and our colonial cousins scratch their heads here..... what is it Dave says - a 'trap for young players' lol
That is how it is - it is perfectly normal and safe.. but that is another topic really... But, hopefully it will give you food for thought that, even at a plug socket and connecting lead to the equipment, the concept of a /neutral/ (if needed) has to be created - in our case - at the equipment. - not at the socket. However, the consumer unit DOES have a Neutral - and E bond - it just does not carry through to the equipment.
It makes one sit and think when you look at it.
All good fun.