Agilent versus Fluke Multimeters

[saturation]

I was researching data on my new Agilent DMM, I came across many instances of advertising and papers indirectly or directly mentioning each other.  Some we've seen before.  Some are webpages or pdf files, often its not google indexed.  

I'll use this thread to collect them all in one location.  Please feel free to add your own or comment.
Mostly tongue in cheek since they are both good instruments, but it makes for interesting viewing.

http://cp.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/secure/U1270_600x400_v3A.swf


https://www.youtube.com/embed/Meknjf4qSGI

[PetrosA]

I've seen both those ads while digging, too. It was interesting to watch them again. It's obvious from the Agilent ad that they're interested in taking on Fluke in a big way, while in the Fluke ad it's all about defending their position against all the brands out there, high end or not. I don't think either ad is particularly well done and of the two, the Fluke ad leaves a yuckier taste in my mouth (I don't like comparison ads, but at least the Agilent ad is based on merits, not mud slinging), but I guess they're both targeted at relatively narrow audiences who should have some clue about what they're watching.

Anyway, the DMM market is changing fast and I suspect Fluke knows it might lose it's top dog status. It should be interesting to watch the developments over the next few years.

[saturation]

Yes, I think they see it friendly competition nevertheless, from their perspective.  I say that because many Agilent DMM or bench meter calibration and service manuals from Agilent, the equipment to service Agilent equipment often lists many, if not all, Fluke equipment.   Likewise, for Fluke, recommends Agilent equipment too.

In another vein, the Agilent oscilloscope white papers specifically compare flaws in Tektronix, and Tek likewise has similar papers too.

[zaoka]

If I remember right fluke 87v needs to be calibrated once in its lifetime while Agilent every year... ??

[Alex]

People using an 'outdated' DMM just proves how good and convenient it is, Agilent.

The $500 U1272A is packed with features (According to the add) that the Fluke 87V user could not care less. Easy fuse access? Do you blow the fuse on purpose regularly? Stray voltage reduction? Do you often do power line industrial measurements with the 87V?

This is just a lame attempt from Agilent to associate Fluke, as in the brand, with outdated DMMs based on the fact that they have been #1 for long.
The Fluke ad is also lame as it presents no facts; clearly an add for Fluke fanboys. Fluke knows they have developed strong customer loyalty and can just call on that.

Fluke has much stronger links with industry with their products, so my bet is on Fluke staying #1 for years and years to come.

[Zad]

Given the design problems with my Fluke 233 and (more to the point) Fluke's marketing-style reply that was devoid of any help or willingness to change things, I don't think my next meter will be Fluke.

[gobblegobble]

If I remember right fluke 87v needs to be calibrated once in its lifetime while Agilent every year... ??

It ain't so! Agilent comes from a lab measuring equipment background which is probably the reason why they're playing it safe and recommending one year.

Stray voltage reduction? Do you often do power line industrial measurements with the 87V?

I take it as you're not an electrician?
Might want to ask one about the stray voltages, but I'm betting money on whoever you ask from has a good change he's happily using his wiggy exactly because of that.
For what it's worth, Fluke has that feature on quite a few of their own models as well.


As far as the ads themselves go, it's interesting to notice Agilent seems to go directly at Fluke, while Fluke's ad leaves some leevay on interpretation: are they referring to Agilent not designing their models on all of their own (they bought Escort after all and based their meters on those) or do they refer to rebranding some brands like Craftsman does (as majority of theirs is identical to Extech's models and only the case coloring and model name differs)?

While Agilent (HP) isn't old and experienced in handheld multimeters they have more than enough of that on lab equipment and definitely have the muscle as a large company to pull off what they're trying to do.

[Excavatoree]

My highly subjective impression is that the Fluke meters seem more "solid" and "professional" than the Aglient.    

I love the OLED display model, but if I could afford only one meter, that wouldn't be it - in fact, I wouldn't own one at all if it weren't for Grainger's sale.

If I could have only one meter, for my use, I would choose a used 189 or 187.  (or the strangely named 87-IV)  More resolution* than the 87-5, which is advertised as an "industrial meter," despite being very useful as a "go to" all purpose electronics meter - as Dave will testify.  Also, the dual display comes in handy.  (Yes, the Agilent has that, too)

If I had two meters, they would be a 87-V and a 189.  For three, I'd add a 287 or 289, and maybe a used 70 series or 27 type for a "knock around, throw it in the back of the truck" meter.  

Your decisions may be different, but my point is Fluke has the variety, as well as the support and longevity.  I don't see a 10 year old Agilent being a viable option - but I have 20 and almost 30 year old Fluke meters that I'd trust in a second.   Many are available for a song used, and they keep their calibrations.  Yes, you have to weed out the obviously wrecked ones, but I've bought hideous, beat-up Flukes that are still accurate to specs.   I don't get the impression that these Agilents can take it as well.

As Kiriakos has said, however, time will tell.  I may be proven wrong.  


(* 87-5 6000 count in standard mode, 20000 count in slower, hi-res mode.   18x - 50,000 count.  Yes, I know that's not much difference and as I explained, this is my preference only.  I can't and won't argue with anyone that says the 87-5 is a better choice.)

If I had 153+ meters, I'd have several 27's, a few 10 series, a few 70-III, a couple of 179s, maybe a 112, several 70 series, a few 80 series, three 18x meters, two 287, and maybe an LCD and OLED Agilent.

[saturation]

I posted this on another thread but should be of interest to those reading comments here, if you want it quickest, see just the video:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=2912.msg40784#msg40784

OTAH, the Fluke 87v does suffer from GSM RF interference at equally close range.  However, the static or possibly RF being picked up by the 1252a is far more sensitive as it requires only my fingers to cause reading fluctuations.

Here's another video comparing a number of series I, 3, and V Flukes. 



For the executive summary jump to the last 30 seconds.

[retiredcaps]

If I had 153+ meters,

I saw your staircase Fluke photo and now see this post.  I'm just curious, are you collector of multimeters?  Or do you have use for all of them in some professional type of work?

[Excavatoree]

If I had 153+ meters,

I saw your staircase Fluke photo and now see this post.  I'm just curious, are you collector of multimeters?  Or do you have use for all of them in some professional type of work?

Yes and Yes.   I do use meters at work, for homeowner type tasks, and my electronics hobby,  but these uses don't require the ridiculous number of meters I've collected.   Most of them were purchased on e-bay at "steal it" prices.   The two Agilent meters I got from Grainger are the only new meters I've ever purchased.

I think I'm a bit unfairly biased toward the Fluke, because I haven't used my Agilent meters yet.   My opinions above are based on only first impressions of the Agilent, while I've known and used Fluke meters for over 20 years.

[saturation]

Excavatoree has an extremely well received and written buyers guide covering the different Fluke 80 series and possibly more.  Its on eBay.  

Excavatoree, you should somehow make your avatar/user icon capture some of that staircase photo of your meters, I know of nothing that can match it within the entire Internet.

If I had 153+ meters,

I saw your staircase Fluke photo and now see this post.  I'm just curious, are you collector of multimeters?  Or do you have use for all of them in some professional type of work?

Yes and Yes.   I do use meters at work, for homeowner type tasks, and my electronics hobby,  but these uses don't require the ridiculous number of meters I've collected.   Most of them were purchased on e-bay at "steal it" prices.   The two Agilent meters I got from Grainger are the only new meters I've ever purchased.

I think I'm a bit unfairly biased toward the Fluke, because I haven't used my Agilent meters yet.   My opinions above are based on only first impressions of the Agilent, while I've known and used Fluke meters for over 20 years.

[Ernie Milko]

Touching on what Excavatoree says; I think Agilent are comparing their meter with a Fluke of inferior spec.
It would appear that their meter is aimed as a direct competitor for the Fluke 87/89IV, 187/189 range, which are now (sadly) discontinued.
These are all higher spec meters than the 87V. Presumably, they can't compare it with the 287/289, as that range is out of the Agilent meter's league.

As a point of interest, my 1978 Fluke 8020A still works perfectly, and agrees with my newer Flukes.

[PetrosA]

Just a few thoughts

My U1272A lists for $370, not $500.

It's not stray voltage, but phantom voltage, and you don't need industrial settings to run into it. Any three way switch using a three wire cable will have phantom voltage that high impedance meters will read, but isn't really there (a high impedance meter will read from 25V-70V of induced voltage in a 120V system on a dead, ungrounded wire that may lead the user to suspect line problems).

Fluke's ad was definitely aimed at electricians and other "high voltage" types. The rebranded meters they're referring to are Ideal, Greenlee and Klein which are all sold by companies whose primary trade is in tools, not test equipment but which are the brands most often seen in electrical supply houses and box stores. This trend has even reached high end, specialty tool companies like Weidmuller et al.

Durability is a design decision. There's nothing inherently "Fluke" about a well built meter but they have been doing it for some time now. Agilent, Gossen Metrawatt, Hioki and others are all big boys in the DMM world along with Fluke. Even my 23 year old RCC 350 is still working, but that doesn't mean that I would use it at work.

There are certain limitations in Fluke meters that influenced my decision to go with Agilent, namely that many of the Flukes only read up to 1000 Hz AC which makes them useless in troubleshooting many electronic transformer issues, and most of the 33x series of clamp meters have a ridiculously low resistance range (so does my U1211A, but the U1213A has a great range for $100 more). The remote screen versions of DMM and clamp meters by Fluke are just a gimmick for me, although I know that there are industrial situations where the newest arc flash regulations make them useful. I've also checked out the iFlex clamp meter and honestly, it seemed like junk - the iFlex probe fell out of the meter on its own...

No one can convince me that it's a bad thing for there to be more players at the serious end of the DMM/clamp meter market.

[Mambo]

The reason Fluke calibrators are mentioned (such as a 5520A) is because Fluke "Own" the Electrical Calibration marketplace. They really only have 2 other companies worldwide they compete with in that area. All meters require Verification (check of calibration, no adjustment needed) then some need a re-calibration, and you check it as often as you need. Most are recommended on a annual basis, but that will vary depending upon how critical the nature of the measurement is.

Some people deem they don't need it checked at all, and it many instances that's fine too. It depends upon who's depending on the outcome

Agilent have improved their DMM's in recent times, but it will be along time before they enjoy anything like the marketshare Fluke have here in Australia or in the US.

Fluke are dominant in Australia, US, Canada & South America
Metrix are dominant in many parts of Europe

Agilent have never had a name for Electrical products, as their domain is Electronic equipment and they are fantasic in that area. I good example IMO is how Agilent release handheld LCR meters quite recently, but now are discontiued. Lasted all about a year 

http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-34196.920242.00&cc=AU&lc=eng]
[url]http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-34196.920242.00&cc=AU&lc=eng[/url]

[Kiriakos-GR]

The Agilen presentation (promo). looks totally lame to me .

They did it, so to influence the ones who had never touch one 87V or similar. 

Also the point of freshness = modern ... come on ,  we do not speak here for skirts of girls, and fashion . 

Agilen its too fresh in the market with not past .
They can not sell their successful past , because they do not have any ..

[saturation]

Here's a new one found, the sales strategy flyer to the vendors on how to pitch Agilent over Fluke, specifically the 87V market.  It reads like it was not meant for the public, but its clear to see who the primary competition is.

In case the link is taken down, I've also uploaded a copy of the pdf.

http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/125000-149999/128025-da-01-en-AGILENT_U1272A_DMM_30000_COUNTS.pdf

[saturation]

General comments on other posts:

Calibration: its common practice to recommend annual calibration, but that really means performance checks to insure its still in spec.  Many good quality DMMs often hold accuracy for decades, but the younger and more sensitive a meter is, the more likely it may drift in the uV range.

@Excavortee's opinion comes well qualified, just look at his staircase.

For historical reasons, Agilent didn't have a DMM line until the last decade, and the HP line DMM were most like Fluke 70 series clones; they are good meters but for the money it couldn't compete as its priced similarly, thus HP too, ceased the DMM line after that series.  Shows how dominant Fluke has been.

@PetrosA: I just finished a performance test of the 1252a vs the Fluke 87V, and the 1252a does have superior Vac accuracy, compared to a calibrated HP 3456a.  It also has a higher limit on frequency counter, FWIW.  All other critical areas, Vdc, ohms, etc., they are equal.  The models differ mostly in their approach to ergonomics and Agilent specific conveniences; data logging, dual readouts, true 50,000 count, etc.,

@Mambo: yes, the 5520A is so versatile, its stolen the DMM calibration market.

@Kiariakos: if Agilent sold 127x line far less than Fluke 87v street price, about $300, I bet they'd quickly steal away market share and build a reputation.  Once established, they can bring prices back up 

[gobblegobble]

Well, I'm checking the flyer as of now and it reads...

For internal use only — by Agilent and our distributor

I think it's safe to assume it reads exactly what it means.

[PetrosA]

@saturation: I agree completely about the price. ~$300 would be a better introductory price until they prove themselves.

[saturation]

Yes, but if it were even lower, at near their cost which I estimate is $100-150 for a $400 meter, which they can sell direct from a website, they can sell a bunch of any new device, for a limited time only, on a first-come-first-serve basis, and see how many takers they get.  Once this 'test' batch is sold, the prices go to the old price, but now they have 100,200 etc., sold with that many users who can give it word-or-mouth review. 

I got the idea from the Grainger.com deal, those Agilent meters just flew out of their stock.
 

@saturation: I agree completely about the price. ~$300 would be a better introductory price until they prove themselves.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Well S. after your message here  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=3232.msg43310#msg43310

( interesting new event, I got contacted by Agilent and they are sending me a fully decked u1272a)

You are totally silent .

I would be interested to read an brief description of your plans, about it .  

[Kiriakos-GR]

I took the time and read, all the detailed specs and functions of the Agilent U1272A ( User’s Guide 160 pages ).

Well by compering just specifications on paper .
By my opinion the only technical advancement are that at 30.000 counts ,
the Agilent manages to maintain the high tolerances that Fluke haves with the 20.000 counts.

Another detail from the ( on paper specifications) are that the Agilent it looks to get higher in Frequency,
but with large tolerance in error by % . ( 3% )

Also there is no information at all , about the sampling rate at Min/Max/Average on the Agilent.

Well by just comparing  the specifications on paper , the eyes who are not trained enough,
they will say that the Agilent is better , by having in mind just the numbers.

About the sales strategy paper ( posted above )
Yes this is more close to reality , and I am speaking about the picture ( over all product positioning) .

And so I agree with the Agilent sales department view, about the over all product positioning map.
And I still support my primary comment about the lame point of view,
of the marketing department of Agilent. ( Video comparison with the 87V )

If I deserve to have an public opinion as consumer , this is it.
 
When my U1272A arrives in about a week or a bit more,
I would had more to say about it :
easy to use / general impression / measurements .
  

  

[saturation]

Hi K,

Just returned from a long trip without any Internet so getting caught up.  

My procedures for testing are :

Performance test; similar to what's in the service manual of the 1272, but I'll use Fluke 87V's test since its the main competition; Fluke uses lower test voltages and resistances for its performance test.
Usability test: akin to what Dave does
Field test: longest, about 6 months of use as I travel outdoor a lot and troubleshoot DC powered devices in jungle, ocean, and sandy environments, and now that we are in summer, the heat will stress test this meter very well.
Software and USB interface test.

author=Kiriakos-GR link=topic=3061.msg43786#msg43786 date=1304261522]
Well S. after your message here  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=3232.msg43310#msg43310

( interesting new event, I got contacted by Agilent and they are sending me a fully decked u1272a)

You are totally silent .

I would be interested to read an brief description of your plans, about it .  

[Kiriakos-GR]

Hi S.

Its nice having you back ..   ( safely returned )

Your Field test, sounds interesting , and it is totally different from my ,
Dave also got this DMM on his hands .

And so , soon enough, three people are going to do their homework about the U1272A,
three totally different between them professionals .  

This sounds all ready tremendously interesting , and it is .