An old subject - high end audio cables

[Leo Bodnar]

Talking about scam that costs money and human lives...

Maybe few know that UK company sold explosive detection equipment consisting of a plastic handle with a swinging antenna from a radio, a piece of BNC terminated cable and holder for plastic cards at a price of $40,000 per set.
There are no active components in this device (and no passive either) which designers say is good because it makes it cheap to run.
Plastic cards are just that - piece of plastic with explosive type written on it and a sticker with a passive anti-theft ID tag (probably from the nearest supermarket.)  

Looks like New Labour UK became a breeding ground for all sort of scum calling themselves "inventors."



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8471187.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245377/Bomb-detection-firm-director-arrested-fraud-claims-devices-sent-Iraq-useless.html

[saturation]

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/1229-barnum-underestimated-the-birthrate-of-suckers.html

More fodder for Randi:

http://www.stereophile.com/writer/119?page=3

[saturation]

Apparently its sold in many forms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651

The devices home page:

http://www.ade651.co.uk/index.html

Training video:




The device up close:



Looks like a project easy to build from Jameco parts ... the hard part is the product 'literature' ...

Talking about scam that costs money and human lives...

Maybe few know that UK company sold explosive detection equipment consisting of a plastic handle with a swinging antenna from a radio, a pice of BNC terminated cable and holder for plastic cards at a price of $40,000 per set.
There are no active components in this device (and no passive either) which designers say is good because it makes it cheap to run.
Plastic cards are just that - piece of plastic with explosive type written on it and a sticker with a passive anti-theft ID tag (probably from the nearest supermarket.) 

Looks like New Labour UK became a breeding ground for all sort of scum calling themselves "inventors."



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8471187.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245377/Bomb-detection-firm-director-arrested-fraud-claims-devices-sent-Iraq-useless.html

[the_raptor]

From the FAQ for the ADE651.

Electrostatic electricity is very much misunderstood. The ADE does require power in order to operate. It requires a very high level of electric current but without amperage.

$40,000 is TOO LITTLE to pay for a device that can utilise amp-less current! Think of the possibilities, cities powered by nothing but rubbing a balloon on some felt!

P.S. They conflate electrical current and static electricity. Which should set off the BS detector in even those with only a high school knowledge of electricity.

P.P.S The bit I like best is that their excuse for when the operator finds nothing is that actually the device is TOO sensitive and can't distinguish between a micro-scopic amount and a bomb. Which precisely would make it absolutely worthless in Iraq/Afghanistan which must have a fine powder of explosives over everything.

[deephaven]

I've always wondered about these devices http://www.eastmidlandswater.com/Details.asp?ProductID=49 Are they more BS or do they actually work?

[david77]

Bit OT:
Some say the do, some say they don't.

We had a lime scale remover fitted in our water mains for >20 years that seemed to do nothing at all, still had to clean the taps every few weeks. But it had a pushbutton and a small meter on top that showed it was working, at least according to the manual. When the piping was modernised I cracked the case and found a length of standard 1,5" steel pipe, a lithium battery, a resistor and the meter - not that that surprised me  . The unit was fitted by the previous house owner.

Now we have one that actually seems to work. It's basically the same as the small one in the link above but a more sophisticated design. The lime doesn't clog up the little sieves (what do you call them in english?) in the taps anymore and I was told it's now easier to clean off too.

[Zero999]

I've always wondered about these devices http://www.eastmidlandswater.com/Details.asp?ProductID=49 Are they more BS or do they actually work?

Me too. I suspect, if they did work the water company would simply installing them.

[Bored@Work]

I've always wondered about these devices http://www.eastmidlandswater.com/Details.asp?ProductID=49 Are they more BS or do they actually work?

The modern version of an old scam. Decades ago scammers sold simple magnets.

[Leo Bodnar]

The modern version of an old scam. Decades ago scammers sold simple magnets.

Nice categorical counter-statement that must obviously be based on experimental research?
Can you conclusively prove they do not work?  

I have theoretical physics degree but I'd be hard pressed to analyse the behaviour of colloid and very complex electrolyte flowing through permanent or fluctuating magnetic field especially when chemical reaction is involved.  Amount of scale is so minute that I won't be surprised that there is some effect.

[Zero999]

I know Wikipedia isn't 100% reliable but it seems to suggest there's no evidence to support it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_water_treatment

As per my statement above, if it really worked then why don't the water companies use it? Why don't house hold appliances (boilers, kettles, washing machines etc.) have built-in magnetic descaling units?

[Bored@Work]

No, you explain to me why it is supposed to work.

You tell me why a magnetic field permanently separates ions of salts molecules dissolved  in water, i.e. why it affects salts that don't exist as salts in the solution any more. You tell me what magic chemical reaction is caused by the magnetic field. Why the separation happens at all, and why it is permanent after the water passes a few centimeter through a magnetic field. And you tell me why the earth magnetic field doesn't have a similar effect. And you tell me why no such effects are, for example observed in power stations where water is used for coolingor even driving the turbines and high magnetic fields exist. Or in any other combination of a magnetic field and water. E.g. why the earth magnetic field doesn't "clean" all oceans. And you show me the serious scientific studies proving why it happens only at home with some magnets on your water pipe.

The scam is going on for decades. I first saw it in the 80th. If you want to make me a believer show me the prove.

[Leo Bodnar]

No, you explain to me why it is supposed to work.

I have not made unbacked unconditional statements.  I am past my teens so I expect things in the world to be more complicated then they seem.

Let's look at your arguments for the sake of argument.

You tell me why a magnetic field permanently separates ions of salts molecules dissolved  in water, i.e. why it affects salts that don't exist as salts in the solution any more. You tell me what magic chemical reaction is caused by the magnetic field.

Tap water is complicated electrolyte (=conductor.)  Conductor moving through magnetic filed causes electric potential to form and subsequently electric current to flow through it.

Why the separation happens at all, and why it is permanent after the water passes a few centimeter through a magnetic field. And you tell me why the earth magnetic field doesn't have a similar effect.

Separation of what?  Scale is formed by Ca ions forming salts that have very low dissolving threshold.  Because Earth's magnetic field is very weak?  Why heating water up descales it?  Scam?

And you tell me why no such effects are, for example observed in power stations where water is used for coolingor even driving the turbines and high magnetic fields exist.

There is no magnetic field in turbines.

Or in any other combination of a magnetic field and water. E.g. why the earth magnetic field doesn't "clean" all oceans. And you show me the serious scientific studies proving why it happens only at home with some magnets on your water pipe.

I have not made the statement that these descalers work.  Why do I have to prove it?

The scam is going on for decades. I first saw it in the 80th. If you want to make me a believer show me the prove.

I have seen it in 70's.  What does it prove?  I don't want to make you a believer but I assume that if a grown-up makes a statement then they should either back up with reliable facts or be considered a zealot.

[Sionyn]

there has to be some fun to be had out of this

[ndictu]

No, you explain to me why it is supposed to work.

I have not made unbacked unconditional statements.  I am past my teens so I expect things in the world to be more complicated then they seem.

Time for the teapot argument: The burden is on you to prove something works, not everyone else to prove it doesn't.

And if you don't agree, I claim I can make a device, very similar to the limescale one, that when fitted on piping will turn water into pure molten gold. Wanna buy one?

[Leo Bodnar]

The burden is on you to prove something works, not everyone else to prove it doesn't.

Oh, really?  I don't know if it does and did not say that so how can I prove it does?!

I did not know that logical statement NOT A is true by default until someone proves otherwise.  Whatever A is.

[the_raptor]

I did not know that logical statement NOT A is true by default until someone proves otherwise.  Whatever A is.

It has nothing to do with formal logic. It is a rule of thumb like Occam's Razor.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Now we have one that actually seems to work. It's basically the same as the small one in the link above but a more sophisticated design. The lime doesn't clog up the little sieves (what do you call them in english?) in the taps anymore and I was told it's now easier to clean off too.

Is the one that you have shaped as round ring , closed on one square box at the ground level ?

[Leo Bodnar]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Thank you for agreeing with me!

[Simon]

Talking about scam that costs money and human lives...

Maybe few know that UK company sold explosive detection equipment consisting of a plastic handle with a swinging antenna from a radio, a piece of BNC terminated cable and holder for plastic cards at a price of $40,000 per set.
There are no active components in this device (and no passive either) which designers say is good because it makes it cheap to run.
Plastic cards are just that - piece of plastic with explosive type written on it and a sticker with a passive anti-theft ID tag (probably from the nearest supermarket.)  

Looks like New Labour UK became a breeding ground for all sort of scum calling themselves "inventors."



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8471187.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245377/Bomb-detection-firm-director-arrested-fraud-claims-devices-sent-Iraq-useless.html

the man should be hung. But really I marvell at government stupidity, who the hell elected those assholes ?

Right I'm off to make a bomb diviner - anyone want to buy it ? - thought not, Suppose i'll have to give the MOD a try

[Trigger]

I've always wondered about these devices http://www.eastmidlandswater.com/Details.asp?ProductID=49 Are they more BS or do they actually work?

Limescale?  I find the claims to be questionable but one could easily replicate the system with a 555 timer and some wire wrapped around a pipe since they give you the frequency.

I found a patent on it, but then again that doesn't mean it works. http://www.google.com/patents?id=gigoAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA12&dq=RF+limescale&hl=en&ei=Q7HpTfaVEtGjtgfcsPCXAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Here is a good one along the lines of the OP http://www.etsy.com/listing/63220540/electromagnetic-radiationpollution

If it neutralizes RF waves then I have a new RF jamming system I'd love to sell to the military  

[bartek]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Thank you for agreeing with me!

Trolling?

The burden is on you to prove something works, not everyone else to prove it doesn't.

Oh, really?  I don't know if it does and did not say that so how can I prove it does?!

I did not know that logical statement NOT A is true by default until someone proves otherwise.  Whatever A is.

As others have stated the burden of proof is always on the person making the big claim. No one can prove that vampires don't exist, so should you live your life as if they do? If yes, then what about the infinite amount of other claims to be made (unicorns/healing crystals/power wrist bands/purifying magnets etc.)

You have to be skeptical or else you will be a sucker! Surely they tought you this during your science degree?

[bartek]

I guess you can't blame people for buying into this stuff, its in our nature.

Just take a look at the anti-vaccine movement...

[deephaven]

I've always wondered about these devices http://www.eastmidlandswater.com/Details.asp?ProductID=49 Are they more BS or do they actually work?

Me too. I suspect, if they did work the water company would simply installing them.

But what amazes me is that these are large water companies selling these devices, not some bloke on a street corner. If they are making false claims, they should be held responsible.

[Zero999]

The burden is on you to prove something works, not everyone else to prove it doesn't.

Oh, really?  I don't know if it does and did not say that so how can I prove it does?!

I did not know that logical statement NOT A is true by default until someone proves otherwise.  Whatever A is.

As others have stated the burden of proof is always on the person making the big claim. No one can prove that vampires don't exist, so should you live your life as if they do? If yes, then what about the infinite amount of other claims to be made (unicorns/healing crystals/power wrist bands/purifying magnets etc.)

I can see Leo's point but it doesn't make it right.

Paul makes a claim about his product.

Pete says it doesn't work because no one's proved it works.

Pete might be wrong, just because no one's proved it works, it doesn't mean it doesn't but as Paul wants money for his product, he shoulders the burden of proof.

A similar debate occurs between atheists and believers.

Atheist: "I don't believe in God because there's no proof God exists! All you have is blind faith God does exist."
Believer: "You can't prove that God doesn't exist. All you have is blind faith God doesn't exist."

All I can say here is that there's no proof the de-scaler works so you'd have to be an idiot to buy it. I can't say for sure it doesn't work but it seems implausible.

[deephaven]

The burden is on you to prove something works, not everyone else to prove it doesn't.

Oh, really?  I don't know if it does and did not say that so how can I prove it does?!

I did not know that logical statement NOT A is true by default until someone proves otherwise.  Whatever A is.

As others have stated the burden of proof is always on the person making the big claim. No one can prove that vampires don't exist, so should you live your life as if they do? If yes, then what about the infinite amount of other claims to be made (unicorns/healing crystals/power wrist bands/purifying magnets etc.)

I can see Leo's point but it doesn't make it right.

Paul makes a claim about his product.

Pete says it doesn't work because no one's proved it works.

Pete might be wrong, just because no one's proved it works, it doesn't mean it doesn't but as Paul wants money for his product, he shoulders the burden of proof.

A similar debate occurs between atheists and believers.

Atheist: "I don't believe in God because there's no proof God exists! All you have is blind faith God does exist."
Believer: "You can't prove that God doesn't exist. All you have is blind faith God doesn't exist."

All I can say here is that there's no proof the de-scaler works so you'd have to be an idiot to buy it. I can't say for sure it doesn't work but it seems implausible.

It ought to possible to set up an experiment to prove whether or not the device works. An experiment to prove the existance or otherwise of God might be a bit more tricky!