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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2017, 11:50:24 PM »
The risk of doing something you love is that if you end up working for a soul crushing hell hole then you will be left with nothing. This is one reason I jumped out of EE and into software. Three years working as tea boy grade work in a defence contractor was at risk of ruining something I loved.

You need something to look forward to after work as well. If you get home and the next thing you're looking forward to is work, then that's equally as broken.
Sure, and agreed. You don't necessarily need to do the thing you love at work, but you need to at least like the thing you do at work.
 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2017, 12:12:43 AM »
If you wake up in the morning and say "oh goody goody another day full of work, I can't wait", then  you are extraordinaily fortunate.  Even more so if you still do after a couple years of it.

Most of us, I think, want to work less.  If you were "independantly wealthy", what would you do, would you still do your job?  Few would.  I sure wouldn't.

One's self should not be defined by thier job, unfortunately in most society that seems to be the case - "nice to meet you, what do you do for a living?"

Maybe, just maybe, the coming AI storm will rectify that by way of massive reduction in employment and unavoidable restructure of how we regard it, painfully pehaps, but ultimately for the good, when eventualy there will be a time when that common phrase is "nice to meet you, what do you like to do?" the world having got past it's present obsession with employment.

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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2017, 12:35:57 AM »
I don't think you're quite reading what I wrote. I said that work should be a means to an end, but that this end shouldn't be purely monetary. That statement concedes that food needs to be put on the table. If the choice is between not eating and taking a dead end job, then the latter obviously makes you happier. It probably doesn't make you happy, though. Just less unhappy.

Also note that I never said that you should only take perfect jobs. Better yet, the worst jobs often teach you the most. That in turn doesn't mean you should seek them out. You should seek something out that makes you happy to at least some degree.
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2017, 12:50:49 AM »

As a knowledge worker, you're basically a brain prostitute.


Exactly!
You pay me, and I allow to be screwed.
But please......... do not ask me to pretend that I'm enjoying it.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2017, 12:59:57 AM »
Exactly!
You pay me, and I allow to be screwed.
But please......... do not ask me to pretend that I'm enjoying it.
Ghastly.
 

Offline michael.spivack.50

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I don't think you're quite reading what I wrote. I said that work should be a means to an end, but that this end shouldn't be purely monetary. That statement concedes that food needs to be put on the table. If the choice is between not eating and taking a dead end job, then the latter obviously makes you happier. It probably doesn't make you happy, though. Just less unhappy.

Also note that I never said that you should only take perfect jobs. Better yet, the worst jobs often teach you the most. That in turn doesn't mean you should seek them out. You should seek something out that makes you happy to at least some degree.


I think we are at the same level.  It bothers me to see folks give college and high school grads the advice that you should hold out for the best job and that if your not happy you should leave your job.   The grass is always greener on the other side and once you get there you’ll find a flaw of some sort that will drive you away again.   It’s a vicious circle and usually leads to a terrible work ethic as well as a broken resume.  If you’re switching employers every 2 years.  It’s not the job, it’s you.  As a hiring manager.  I like to see people who have longevity cause I know their not going to bolt when it gets tough.  Most millennials.  Just don’t seem to have the tenacity and wherewithal to gut it out.   I get that when your starting out as a teen  and 20’s there’s going to be movement, but at some point you gotta settle a bit.

I agree money isn’t everything and doesn’t bring you happiness.   Even people really don’t bring you happiness.  That comes from within.  Ultimately everything and everyone you know  will eventually let your expectations down.  It’s just best to not develop those expectations and realize shit happens.  You gotta roll with it.   


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Offline b_force

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2017, 02:58:27 AM »
I guess it's all about perspective.
In my opinion it's also not healthy and smart to stay at the same job for more than 10-15 years, unless you're happy/fine with it.
Depending on the size of the company it's even deadly to stay innovative with people sticking around for so long.

Btw, a lot of times people don't choose to switch employers that often.
Especially the last few years a lot of companies don't want to give any fixed contracts.
So it certainly doesn't say anything about the person, sometimes it's bad luck.
I have seen leaving enough very talented smart people, simply because companies can't effort a fixed contract.
(for the record in many countries you can't just fire someone)
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Offline Cerebus

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If you’re switching employers every 2 years.  It’s not the job, it’s you.

That is no longer true. It can be very hard for people to keep a job more than a few years because the companies are just nowhere near as stable as in the past. Only 3 out of the 11 companies that I have worked for over the last 40 years still exist, that figure gets much worse if you include companies that I've worked freelance for. Failing companies, and mergers and acquisitions followed by redundancy generating reorganisations often mean that the job doesn't exist for more than two or three years. These days you're very fortunate if you can find somewhere where it is physically possible to stay 4 years or more.
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Offline michael.spivack.50

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If you’re switching employers every 2 years.  It’s not the job, it’s you.

That is no longer true. It can be very hard for people to keep a job more than a few years because the companies are just nowhere near as stable as in the past. Only 3 out of the 11 companies that I have worked for over the last 40 years still exist, that figure gets much worse if you include companies that I've worked freelance for. Failing companies, and mergers and acquisitions followed by redundancy generating reorganisations often mean that the job doesn't exist for more than two or three years. These days you're very fortunate if you can find somewhere where it is physically possible to stay 4 years or more.


Maybe I’m the outlier.  Myself and 7 others in my position have survived for 20+ years.  Granted our respective original employers have changed due to acquisitions and mergers but we have all stayed put  doing the same duties which always expand supporting the same customers through different contracts.  I agree there’s no such thing as permanent contracts especially when dealing with government entities.   I was given at least 5 opportunities to change companies, earn ridiculous amounts of money and even work directly for the federal government.   It just didn’t feel right to stab my employer in the back like that and leave.    I guess I have an unhealthy amount of loyalty.   


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Offline R005T3r

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2017, 05:48:07 AM »
I'd cut the ropes and say: " I have no answer to this question"...

By the way, I'm studying engegneering, so I guess I'd be graduating, if everthing goes as expected.
 

Offline coppice

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Maybe I’m the outlier.  Myself and 7 others in my position have survived for 20+ years.  Granted our respective original employers have changed due to acquisitions and mergers but we have all stayed put  doing the same duties which always expand supporting the same customers through different contracts.  I agree there’s no such thing as permanent contracts especially when dealing with government entities.
Most companies who have continued for decades have seen huge swings in what they do. If you have have been supporting the same customers for 20 years I think you must either be in low grade maintenance work, or an outlier.
I was given at least 5 opportunities to change companies, earn ridiculous amounts of money and even work directly for the federal government.   It just didn’t feel right to stab my employer in the back like that and leave.    I guess I have an unhealthy amount of loyalty.   
How is changing jobs stabbing your employer in the back? Running away at a critical point in a short deadline project might be considered stabbing them in the back, but simply going where the opportunities take you is EXACTLY what any employer is also doing.
 

Offline vealmike

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2017, 09:36:06 PM »
It's a no win question, you can't answer it directly without looking bad. May as well call them out on that & pass that monkey straight back to them.

"Where will I be in five years? Respectfully, that's a tricky question to answer. If I tell you I want to be running the company, you might think I'm over ambitious and will leave this role quickly. If I tell you I'm quite happy to be still doing this job, you might think that I have no interest in self progression. Neither of these are true, I'm somewhere in the middle.

What do you think that the ideal candidate for this job will be doing in five years time?"
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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I think we are at the same level.  It bothers me to see folks give college and high school grads the advice that you should hold out for the best job and that if your not happy you should leave your job.   The grass is always greener on the other side and once you get there you’ll find a flaw of some sort that will drive you away again.   It’s a vicious circle and usually leads to a terrible work ethic as well as a broken resume.  If you’re switching employers every 2 years.  It’s not the job, it’s you.  As a hiring manager.  I like to see people who have longevity cause I know their not going to bolt when it gets tough.  Most millennials.  Just don’t seem to have the tenacity and wherewithal to gut it out.   I get that when your starting out as a teen  and 20’s there’s going to be movement, but at some point you gotta settle a bit.

I agree money isn’t everything and doesn’t bring you happiness.   Even people really don’t bring you happiness.  That comes from within.  Ultimately everything and everyone you know  will eventually let your expectations down.  It’s just best to not develop those expectations and realize shit happens.  You gotta roll with it.   

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I think these supposed millenials get a lot of undeserverd flak. They are a product of the world they grew up in. Research also indicates that they work differently in some areas thanks to these different circumstances, but aren't less competent or hard working. Horses for courses and all that, and if you manage to incorporate their strengths into your work process, your company will benefit. If you try to fit everyone in the same mould, expect should expect problems. You probably deserve them too.

Personally I feel there's a profound difference between thoughing something out and staying in a job that doesn't make you happy. I would leave a job because I'm not challenged or things are too easy. Both make me unhappy. I would not quickly quit a job because it's too hard. That's just a challenge to tackle. The same goes for loyalty. That's very explicitly a two way street, but research indicates that most employees take their relationship much more personal than employers. To most, you're just an asset. If so, you breed zero loyalty.

Another thing to note is that the market has changed. It used to be common to work 10 or 20 years for the same boss. Now, that's becoming ever rarer, but that's as much caused by employers as it is by employees.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2017, 09:38:56 PM »
It's a no win question, you can't answer it directly without looking bad. May as well call them out on that & pass that monkey straight back to them.

"Where will I be in five years? Respectfully, that's a tricky question to answer. If I tell you I want to be running the company, you might think I'm over ambitious and will leave this role quickly. If I tell you I'm quite happy to be still doing this job, you might think that I have no interest in self progression. Neither of these are true, I'm somewhere in the middle.

What do you think that the ideal candidate for this job will be doing in five years time?"
In the interviews I've done, saying you're in the middle quickly gets you discarded. It's a middle of the road taking no responsibilities answer. Say what you mean and people will like it, or not. But don't take the safe road.
 

Offline vealmike

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2017, 09:49:35 PM »
That may be a country specific thing. In the UK, there's a very fine line between coming across as much better than average and bragging, but I do take your point.

It's a crap question. The interviewer's job is to help you show your very best side and to keep you honest. It's pointless for them to ask a question to which you can only give an answer they'll find disagreeable.

Delete the sentence about being somewhere between the two if you like, but I maintain that this one should be diplomatically batted back across the table.
 

Offline michael.spivack.50

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Maybe I’m the outlier.  Myself and 7 others in my position have survived for 20+ years.  Granted our respective original employers have changed due to acquisitions and mergers but we have all stayed put  doing the same duties which always expand supporting the same customers through different contracts.  I agree there’s no such thing as permanent contracts especially when dealing with government entities.
Most companies who have continued for decades have seen huge swings in what they do. If you have have been supporting the same customers for 20 years I think you must either be in low grade maintenance work, or an outlier.

It might be considered low grade.  Buts it’s not always the same customers.  Contractors come and go but the federal government entity always stays the same.  That happens when you live in the US’s Nations capital.  I don’t thinks it’s to low grade.  It’s supercomputers, mainframes, storage, and tape libraries.   I have one customer (navy) in which they have owned our products for longer then I’ve been employed and actually have a system that has been up and running for 23 years.  They’ve only taken the same down a handful of times during power outages to clean it.  They say the can count on two hands how many times it’s been down and pay an exorbitant contract fee to keep it covered.  You may say why would anyone keep an antiquated system like that running.  It’s because they have to.  The platform is still maintained operationally and some ships only come into dry dock for upgrades almost never.   


I was given at least 5 opportunities to change companies, earn ridiculous amounts of money and even work directly for the federal government.   It just didn’t feel right to stab my employer in the back like that and leave.    I guess I have an unhealthy amount of loyalty.   

How is changing jobs stabbing your employer in the back? Running away at a critical point in a short deadline project might be considered stabbing them in the back, but simply going where the opportunities take you is EXACTLY what any employer is also doing.

It’s a very expensive feat to keep someone’s clearance maintained and keep them trained on ever evolving products that a company constantly releases over the years.   I travel twice a year to do hands on training for new products.  Sometimes it’s overseas.  Not to mentioned in the past 5 years along my company has bought three other companies in which we’ve had to take in their products and learn how to support them.  I guess it comes down to the type of profession you are doing.  I can understand if you have a marketable skill and feel like your position is dead end.  I may have a decent marketable skill by being analytical and able to troubleshoot well.  I’ve just not really felt unappreciated or underutilized.   



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Offline b_force

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2017, 10:25:03 PM »
It's a no win question, you can't answer it directly without looking bad.
That's actually with most questions.
For the same reason I don't believe in 'what are your good/strong points and what are your bad points?'
It's extremely subjective, and what is something positive for someone, can be negative for someone else.
So that's always my direct answer that that question.

The good and nice companies I did interviews with, also admit they just use these questions to just start somewhere.
Unfortunately some other companies take it way to serious and strict.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2017, 10:31:37 PM »
That may be a country specific thing. In the UK, there's a very fine line between coming across as much better than average and bragging, but I do take your point.

It's a crap question. The interviewer's job is to help you show your very best side and to keep you honest. It's pointless for them to ask a question to which you can only give an answer they'll find disagreeable.

Delete the sentence about being somewhere between the two if you like, but I maintain that this one should be diplomatically batted back across the table.
I disagree that it's a question which cannot be answered correctly. Not to mention that correct implies there is a right answer, while an interview is also about just getting to know each other.

Some companies value employee growth a lot, and reward ambition with tough jobs that provide a way up to a better position. In those cases, an ambitous answer will score you points. It's also not a horrible thing to be honest to each other. I've seen companies tell people it needs them in position X for at least Y period. That way it's clear that you're expected to fulfil a position. After that, you're free to pursue your ambitions and if you did your job well, that will likely be facilitated by the company.

Of course, the UK's stiff upper lip is well known around the world ;)
 

Offline michael.spivack.50

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I think we are at the same level.  It bothers me to see folks give college and high school grads the advice that you should hold out for the best job and that if your not happy you should leave your job.   The grass is always greener on the other side and once you get there you’ll find a flaw of some sort that will drive you away again.   It’s a vicious circle and usually leads to a terrible work ethic as well as a broken resume.  If you’re switching employers every 2 years.  It’s not the job, it’s you.  As a hiring manager.  I like to see people who have longevity cause I know their not going to bolt when it gets tough.  Most millennials.  Just don’t seem to have the tenacity and wherewithal to gut it out.   I get that when your starting out as a teen  and 20’s there’s going to be movement, but at some point you gotta settle a bit.

I agree money isn’t everything and doesn’t bring you happiness.   Even people really don’t bring you happiness.  That comes from within.  Ultimately everything and everyone you know  will eventually let your expectations down.  It’s just best to not develop those expectations and realize shit happens.  You gotta roll with it.   

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I think these supposed millenials get a lot of undeserverd flak. They are a product of the world they grew up in. Research also indicates that they work differently in some areas thanks to these different circumstances, but aren't less competent or hard working. Horses for courses and all that, and if you manage to incorporate their strengths into your work process, your company will benefit. If you try to fit everyone in the same mould, expect should expect problems. You probably deserve them too.

Some of it is deserved but I agree they are a product of raising and life experiences.   But sometimes you gotta grow up and take responsibility for your choices.   About 10 years ago I hired a team of 15 engineers to do maintenance on three datacenters filled with our products.  These are entry level positions.  I got about three college graduates with computer science degrees, 4 former marines with some technical experience, and the rest were from a local technical/vocational school.   We have to pretty much trained them all.  About 10 to 12 two week classes all over the nation on varied products we were supporting.  It was a 5 year contract.  Everything is well documented with procedures.   It was very clear these were entry level positions.  A great deal of money was spent getting these folks up to speed on the various products and much of it is specialized.  They good performers out of the entire crew of course were the marines.   They didn’t feel the work was below them, had surprising analytical skills to overcome the more difficult troubleshooting scenarios that they encountered and didn’t question the bullshit work.   I got similar performance out of the vocational and tech school grads.   But the computer science grades.   For some reason felt the entry level position was beneath them.  Wanted to reinvent the wheel, and really seemed to lack initiative in any area unless it was for personal gain not the customers.  Left a very bad taste in my mouth.  Now I really look hard at people with no experience and definitely no degree.   

It’s nots like the work wasn’t challenging.  There were plenty of opportunities to challenge oneself.   They could have done a great deal to automate the mundane tasks they had to do and at least once a day there were troubleshooting opportunities in which they could have really dived into the inner workings of how systems work and how to troubleshoot them.   

[/quote] Personally I feel there's a profound difference between thoughing something out and staying in a job that doesn't make you happy. I would leave a job because I'm not challenged or things are too easy. Both make me unhappy. I would not quickly quit a job because it's too hard. That's just a challenge to tackle. The same goes for loyalty. That's very explicitly a two way street, but research indicates that most employees take their relationship much more personal than employers. To most, you're just an asset. If so, you breed zero loyalty. [/quote]

I’m of a different mindset.  I don’t think anyone else or anything else is responsible for your happiness.  Only you are responsible for your happiness.  Happiness in my mind is self created.  It’s a choice.   If you choose to be happy, you’ll be happy.  If you don’t you won’t.   I try not to let anyone else or anything else get control or own me or my emotions like that.   It’s what my father always taught me and it’s what I pass along to my children.  It makes life so much more rewarding.   Not to mention that mindset helps you not be letdown when you don’t get what you want.   Of course there’s shit that happens that’s egregious. Death, accidents, mean people.   It’s healthy to have those feelings and express them.  But not in an unhealthy manner.   You have to move on eventually.   

[/quote] Another thing to note is that the market has changed. It used to be common to work 10 or 20 years for the same boss. Now, that's becoming ever rarer, but that's as much caused by employers as it is by employees.
[/quote]

I know.  I’ve had 5 different supervisors since I started with this career at my company.   One who passed away 3 years ago.  I don’t see how it’s caused by employers.   Aren’t people responsible for their own decisions.   I can understand changes in benefits, salary, and layoffs.   I’ve always been of the mindset to bust my rear to make myself irreplaceable.   It means doing anything when asked, learning whatever you can to better yourself and add value.   It’s kept me out of layoffs.   I guess I’m just from a different period. 



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Offline Mr. Scram

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How can people be responsible for their own decisions if these decisions are made for them? You should realize that different countries have very different legal frameworks, which have profound implications for employers and employees. Job stability can be very different in different countries. This means that letting people go is sometimes financially beneficial to the company, which happens with complete irrespect of their performance. Obviously, the less secure your job or the entire job market is, the more likely it is you take opportunities to improve the situation for yourself. Like you say, you're responsible for yourself and making yourself happy.

Choosing to be happy sounds passive. I don't think I'd like an employee who doesn't strive to improve things for himself and others much.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 11:02:06 PM by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline michael.spivack.50

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I think we’re not going to agree on this concept.  And that’s ok.  I’m just speaking from my own perspective.  There’s no possible way we are going to agree on everything.   These are just my own personal observations and experiences.  But what you queried below does leave me with some confusion.  As I’m sure my reply might have done the same to you. 


[/quote]
How can people be responsible for their own decisions if these decisions are made for them? [/quote]

Is this English?  I don’t think anyone else is responsible for my own decisions.  I make them myself no one makes them for me.   Maybe you were trying to say something else.  I’m not sure.


[/quote] You should realize that different countries have very different legal frameworks, which have profound implications for employers and employees. [/quote].

Oh I definitely accept that not just countries but even in the US different states have different legal frameworks that govern how employers and employees interact and and conduct work.   I think I am mainly focusing on free Democratic societies in which people for the most part have a choice in their employment decisions.  For the most part I don’t think anyone is forced to work in a field or profession .

[/quote] Job stability can be very different in different countries. This means that letting people go is sometimes financially beneficial to the company, which happens with complete irrespect of their performance. Obviously, the less secure your job or the entire job market is, the more likely it is you take opportunities to improve the situation for yourself. Like you say, you're responsible for yourself and making yourself happy. [/quote]

Absolutely.  It’s a large motivating factor of why I’ve stayed where I am for so long.  I got laid off about 2 years after I got my first job in the military.  It occurred to me then as much as it does now that I had to change what I was doing to make it darn near impossible for an employer to want to lay me off.   Layoffs don’t happen in a vacuum.  There is a deliberate decision process that happens with active input from supervisors and other employees not impacted.    I’m sure there’s times where it’s unavoidable.  I don’t think that’s all the time.  Usually that occurs when it’s much more catastrophic like a company is going bankrupt or under an acquisition or merger. 

[/quote] Choosing to be happy sounds passive. I don't think I'd like an employee who doesn't strive to improve things for himself and others much.
[/quote]

Actually choosing to be happy or mad or sad is the most active decision a human can do.  Allowing others or things to influence your feelings is very passive. 

Of course striving to make things better is in my mind would be a decision and a positive one.  But who do you think is more likely to strive to make positive change.   Someone who sits around and complains or someone who identifies the problem and becomes the change. 


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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2017, 11:53:11 PM »
Yes, it is English. I've sent you a message, because I don't want to broadcast the specifics on the forums.
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2017, 12:50:10 AM »
Well 5 years is 260*7+6 or 260*7+7 days. So if the interview is on Monday, you can tell them, that you will be at home, enjoying the weekend.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2017, 01:11:22 AM »
Well 5 years is 260*7+6 or 260*7+7 days. So if the interview is on Monday, you can tell them, that you will be at home, enjoying the weekend.
I think they'll both be somewhat worried and impressed if you do that off the top of your head.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Answer for "where do you see yourself in 5 years"( interview question?
« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2017, 09:15:16 PM »
What will I be doing in five years time? I have an engineering friend who would answer that perfectly. He is an Oz who permanently lives in the US in the US who works on 5 year plans over the last 40 years. My friend has done extraordinarily well in life - business, financially, family etc.

18 year old Jesse Martin was an Oz who circumnavigated the world in 1999. He almost died off the coast of Perth in a wild storm as he was nearing the end of his voyage. When interviewed he said something along the lines of, "If I died, that won't be a tragedy because I died loving what I was doing, living my dream. A tragedy is someone who is near the end of their life and looks back and says, 'If only...'" It is a bit cliche. But there is some truth to it.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 10:14:46 PM by VK3DRB »
 
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