Any alternatives to PC engines? (Solved)

[sam1275]

Hi everyone, I want to find a fanless little computer, primary for build a firewall/router, I know the PC-engines solutions are the most popular, but it don't completely meet my needs. So here's what I want:

The system should be fanless.
CPU: At least 32-bit X86, not lower than the PC-engines AMD LX800.
RAM: Not lower than 256MB.
The motherboard better use DC input, not 20/24 pin ATX.
At least 4 Gigabit ports, really want 5.
Onboard devices have good Linux/BSD driver support.
Support VGA or DVI output.
Have USB port(s).
Must from a known good brand, no Chinese brands.
Shouldn't be too expensive, better keep below 150 dollars.

Could anyone help me? Thank you all.

Update: Thank you everyone so much! I didn't expect you guys are so helpful!
I think what Mr.jazz mentioned is a good news for me, I can use a mini-pcie to dual gigabit card to expand, example:
http://www.logicsupply.com/admpeidlb/
So this is a rescuer if I cannot find a motherboard with so many LAN ports.
Above example still expensive to me, if someone can find a cheaper while quality alternative, please tell me. Thanks.

Update 2: I found this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813153309
Seems great
That board have only 1 NIC...

Update 3: Thank you everyone! You provided many useful answers and I'm appreciate them.
I'm marking this thread as solved, and I'll do research more and decide one, and you're totally welcome to continue post in.

[wraper]

firewall/router

IMO what you want to use it for and price target contradicts with what you want it to be. Maybe get something what Mikrotik offers. They are not just usual routers you see in stores.
https://routerboard.com/products/group/17

[2N3055]

Listen to the wraper.

Mikrotik is awesome...

[sam1275]

firewall/router

IMO what you want to use it for and price target contradicts with what you want it to be. Maybe get something what Mikrotik offers. They are not just usual routers you see in stores.
https://routerboard.com/products/group/17

Thanks man, I'm using a Mikrotik right now
It is generally a awesome router, but I want DNSsec/DNSCrypt feature that it don't included. Plus, I wanted to play build a X86 router for a long time, last time I use a ancient enterprise firewall with 200MHZ pentium and 64 RAM to run monowall, but it just too limited, and... it usually need 5-30+ times power cycle to get boot successfully

[sam1275]

If you want a general purpose PC that is applicable to the task then you could look at solutions available in the mini-ITX form factors or something like an intel NUC board / system.
Not all will have enough NIC ports so you might need to use USB or PCIE type NIC devices for some of the ports.

Also although you asked for a small fanless system you asked for not insignificant processing power so one possible consideration might be to combine these functions with other functions that you may need from other server / appliance devices in the same location and then if you find that you'd need a couple or a few such servers for various purposes then it might make sense to run all of those functions as virtual appliances or containers within a single server PC to gain more functionality per cost and more functionality per Watt.

As I recall if you look at the typical router / firewall / gateway SW vendors many of those also recommend / offer hardware appliances based upon their SW, e.g. pfsense, untangle, clarkconnect, whatever.

And of course you can look at what mikrotik, ubuquiti, cisco, et. al. offer.

Thank you for reply.
I've looked at those boards, but they either don't have enough ports, or too expensive.
I tried to find USB-LAN adapters, but big-brands ones are very rare, and I even bought a Linksys one to test, is very expensive, and just not work for BSD/Linux. Not to mention USB are slower compare to onboard ones.
I do have a server in my house, but that's too noisy and I have to put it in the far balcony, I plan to stop using that at night...
And it's not so convenient to setup a virtual appliance as a router, I prefer a standalone one.
The PC-engines are pretty close, but they only have at most 3 ports, and no video output.

[dannyf]

I want to find a fanless little computer,

google HP-PLEX.

[Marco]

I'd ditch the fanless requirement and look for a second hand HP Microserver. These things sold for ridiculously low prices to begin with, so there's probably a few available on the cheap. The peak performance of x86 based solution is always nice to have.

[Marco]

Oh there's the WiTI board. An indiegogo campaign which actually delivered it seems (no experience with the hardware though).

[sam1275]

I understand.  I have used Atom based mini-ITX PCs for UNIX based network routers / appliances for many years but not in the most recent few years so I am not sure what the current price and features comparisons are like.
I suspect some options with enough NICs exist, but maybe as you said not suitable in cost or from preferable manufacturers or whatever, e.g. :
http://www.mini-box.com/M350-Jetway-NF9D-2550-multiple-ethernet

Now there is not so much difference between some micro-ATX, mini-ITX, and even smaller form factor PCs since you could find single board computers with fanless options and at least two or more Gb NICs in all of those board form factors.
For SBCs with proper PCI/PCIE slots in the past it was not a problem for me in the past to just add a low height dual port (or more if you need) NIC card for expansion but yes it is perhaps preferable for size to get more ports integrated in the motherboard.

The only thing about going for SBCs with "unusually high" Gb NIC counts on the motherboard is that it limits your choice of SBCs, and maybe the ones that are left are too expensive or too limited in other ways compared to the cost of simply adding a NIC to a SBC with only 2 or whatever NIC ports integrated.

Also integrated NICs on some boards may not be capable of good bandwidth or hardware features and they may or may not be supported well by UNIX (though as far as I know most major model NICs seem to be pretty well supported by UNIX these days  at or relatively soon after they come out, there is not much new technology in Gbit Ethernet after all).
If you really care about high performance at full Gb/s media rates on all ports then I'd guess thay many options will not be suitable for you since various NICs may not support the bandwidth or features like good DMA, hardware packet checksum offloading, good filtering in HW, stable drivers, etc.

At worst some SBCs just implement multiple NIC ports by using one or two integrated NIC ICs and then putting a 4 port, 5 port, 8 port, whatever switch IC in front of the NIC which is not usually ideal (for low cost switches) if you do need the full bandwidth from every port simultaneously.

Then again for my past purposes I never required full media bandwidth for firewall edge router applications for personal use and therefore I could use a USB or other low performance NIC port for some/many of the ports because the utilization of those ports would be limited by other factors like the ISP link bandwidth or the bandwidth of an attached wireless router or whatever was connected to it.

Along the lines of what I have said therefore it could also be possible in some cases to combine the use of a SBC with fewer or low performance ports with an external switch to make the overall system more flexible.  Port expansion on the same LAN is of course an obvious option.  But if you use your switch to create different VLANS toward your router SBC when different physical switch output ports are configured to strip the VLAN tag on egress and insert one on ingress then one or two links between the switch and the router could potentially be expanded to route traffic between multiple otherwise isolated tagged switch ports. 

Anyway you might check smallnetbuilder or some such places for other SBC recommendations.  Or what I would do is to look at places like newegg and use the filtering criteria to select only motherboards with more than X GB NIC ports and then filter those by whatever like fanless, form factor, cost, etc. and see what is readily available matching the general criteria then UNIX support could be investigated for the attractive possibilities.



   

Thank you for reply.
I've looked at those boards, but they either don't have enough ports, or too expensive.
I tried to find USB-LAN adapters, but big-brands ones are very rare, and I even bought a Linksys one to test, is very expensive, and just not work for BSD/Linux. Not to mention USB are slower compare to onboard ones.
I do have a server in my house, but that's too noisy and I have to put it in the far balcony, I plan to stop using that at night...
And it's not so convenient to setup a virtual appliance as a router, I prefer a standalone one.
The PC-engines are pretty close, but they only have at most 3 ports, and no video output.

Thank you very much!
That Jetway is a good except the price...
In fact I don't need very powerful gigabit ports, the ISP is only about 60Mbps and I don't always transfer large things among Lan. The reason I want Gigabit is many device I connect to is Gigabit, and I think better not to waste that. I don't want to use USB-LAN is not really because the speed, they are just too rare and expensive, and bad Unix support, besides, tons of people are against USB-LAN on a proper router because the overhead and unstable. They even against USB-wireless, but I think I have to use a USB wireless anyway because many mini PCs just don't have PCIs.

[sam1275]

I'd ditch the fanless requirement and look for a second hand HP Microserver. These things sold for ridiculously low prices to begin with, so there's probably a few available on the cheap. The peak performance of x86 based solution is always nice to have.

Thank you!
Unfortunately fanless is a must to me, I have a TYAN server and I know how it sounds I'm wearing 3M noise-resist earpiece every night sleeping, seriously.

Oh there's the WiTI board. An indiegogo campaign which actually delivered it seems (no experience with the hardware though).

That one seems to be a OpenWRT dev board, which is not X86.
Thank you anyway.

[helius]

If you like the PC-Engines ALIX APU1 but really need graphics (for a router??) the fit-PC3 is pretty much the same. It's close to your price spec too, but without any memory or storage. http://www.fit-pc.com/web/purchasing/order-all/

[Marco]

Unfortunately fanless is a must to me, I have a TYAN server and I know how it sounds I'm wearing 3M noise-resist earpiece every night sleeping, seriously.

HP Microserver is not a rackmount format, it's going to be more like a quiet desktop PC. That said, why does it have to be near you?

When I was in a student apartment I had my server in the hot water boiler closet (I just cut up the standard network cabling to my room to plug it in). Currently my main computer is also in a closet with 10 meter cables to my desk.

[System Error Message]

before you go off buying, while mikrotik is nice it is dependent on the architecture. You should see the block diagram before you buy because the configuration of the ports and switch chip affect your use and throughput. The CPU is the most important for throughput. I myself use a mikrotik CCR1036 that i modified (more details on snbforums). Mikrotik does have routerOS that is for x86 too.

There are other routers that are capable or even better. You can use an OS on x86 that is focused like pfsense or you can build one from scratch from installing a linux/unix OS and installing all the software and configuring everything. There are also UTMs as well you should give a try.

It really depends what you want, whether you want to learn and try things or just install packages and features that do what you want.

[rob77]

try something like this:
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5631#ov
it's small mini-ITX and it's fanless

it has 2 gig ethernets onboard - you can connect it to a 802.11q capable switch and split up those nics to as many as you wish via that switch

and it has serial ports ! you can have a serial console !

[sam1275]

Unfortunately fanless is a must to me, I have a TYAN server and I know how it sounds I'm wearing 3M noise-resist earpiece every night sleeping, seriously.

HP Microserver is not a rackmount format, it's going to be more like a quiet desktop PC. That said, why does it have to be near you?

When I was in a student apartment I had my server in the hot water boiler closet (I just cut up the standard network cabling to my room to plug it in). Currently my main computer is also in a closet with 10 meter cables to my desk.

Thank you, I currently live with other people and the "network center" is at my room, together with a UPS, I also don't want to put those to other room.

[sam1275]

before you go off buying, while mikrotik is nice it is dependent on the architecture. You should see the block diagram before you buy because the configuration of the ports and switch chip affect your use and throughput. The CPU is the most important for throughput. I myself use a mikrotik CCR1036 that i modified (more details on snbforums). Mikrotik does have routerOS that is for x86 too.

There are other routers that are capable or even better. You can use an OS on x86 that is focused like pfsense or you can build one from scratch from installing a linux/unix OS and installing all the software and configuring everything. There are also UTMs as well you should give a try.

It really depends what you want, whether you want to learn and try things or just install packages and features that do what you want.

Thank you, as I said, I'm currently using a Mikrotik and it is good, however I just want to try to build a even more crazy one... For fun?
Yes I already researched many firewall and UTM OSes, just wait to try them out!

[sam1275]

Must from a known good brand, no Chinese brands.
Shouldn't be too expensive, better keep below 150 dollars.

They don't mix. Last time I saw a Dell industrial gateway PC being sold on Mouser for $800+.
Why you insist on known good brands? Why startup brands such as Udoo, Up-board or LattePanda won't work for you?

If you insist on a big brand, maybe RPi or Intel Edison will be your only choices. If you can stretch your budget, an E3815 NUC or an Intel Joule can also be a good idea.
FYI, my private network system (SAMBA, HTTP, FTP, compiler suite, virtual USB, firewall, VPN, database and BLE gateway) is based on an i5 NUC plus my home made DC UPS.

Thank you.
Although it is not going to be used in a large/mission critical area, I still want it to be very stable, so I think it's better to use a known good brands one.
An NUC usually not having enough ports for me, I don't want another switch

[sam1275]

If you like the PC-Engines ALIX APU1 but really need graphics (for a router??) the fit-PC3 is pretty much the same. It's close to your price spec too, but without any memory or storage. http://www.fit-pc.com/web/purchasing/order-all/

Thank you, graphics is not a must for a router, but I think it's better to have one in case to diagnostic, or initially install some distros that won't install without a monitor.
I've already saw those before, but they are out of my budget

[sam1275]

try something like this:
http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5631#ov
it's small mini-ITX and it's fanless

it has 2 gig ethernets onboard - you can connect it to a 802.11q capable switch and split up those nics to as many as you wish via that switch

and it has serial ports ! you can have a serial console !

Thank you, but I really don't want a standalone switch.

[jazz]

My take on it would be to just get some ITX board with a low power CPU and plug a quad-port GBit NIC into the PCIe slot. Those quad NICs typically need an x4 PCIe slot and low profile versions are available, you may have to get a used one though to stay within your price range.
Since all of this is pretty much standard hardware, you're also less likely to run into any driver issues etc.

You could also get 5 GBit ports on a PC-Engines APU board by getting a dual-port GBit MiniPCIe card (such cards actually exist, though they're kinda rare). The APU boards don't have graphics though, and it would also be harder to meet your price target.

[sam1275]

My take on it would be to just get some ITX board with a low power CPU and plug a quad-port GBit NIC into the PCIe slot. Those quad NICs typically need an x4 PCIe slot and low profile versions are available, you may have to get a used one though to stay within your price range.
Since all of this is pretty much standard hardware, you're also less likely to run into any driver issues etc.

You could also get 5 GBit ports on a PC-Engines APU board by getting a dual-port GBit MiniPCIe card (such cards actually exist, though they're kinda rare). The APU boards don't have graphics though, and it would also be harder to meet your price target.

Wow this is really helpful
I quickly found Jetway JADMPEIDLA/B that seems good, although a bit expensive.
So I can add 2 Gigabit port to any board with mini-PCIe, great!
Thank you so much.

[David Hess]

AMD AM1 processor - $30
Asus AM1M-A motherboard - $38
ECC or non-ECC memory
Pair of dual port PCIe ethernet cards - $25 to $50 each

All standard parts makes this easy to maintain.  Passive heat sink can be used with an AM1 processor.  ECC memory is supported for long term operation if desired.  Used network cards and a spare case and power supply can be used to lower cost.

[jazz]

By the way, maybe the Banana Pi Router might also interesting to you: http://www.banana-pi.org/r1.html
It meets most of your needs, but it's ARM. OS choice would be limited to some flavors of Linux it seems.

[rdl]

The HP Microservers that were mentioned are nice little computers. The Gen 7s were very popular and could be found new for under $250. Unfortunately, HP realized what a good thing they had and quickly came out with Gen 8 versions. Which were only slightly better, much uglier and a whole lot more expensive.

A used N36L/N40L/N54L machine in good condition still sells for about what it cost new. You might look on ebay for just a motherboard. I've seen them for $100-$150.  They have two PCIe slots, two DIMM slots and an AMD 64 bit processor soldered on. One thing to note, the faster SATA II connector needs a mini-SAS 4 to 1 cable, which could be a problem. There is a single SATA I, a couple of eSATA and a bunch of USB 2.0 ports, including one directly on the motherboard (good for running some OS from).

I don't know that one would be good for what you want, but they make fantastic FreeNAS machines.

[mariush]

You can easily do that with desktop components.

Motherboard + CPU  + Integrated video (cpu soldered on motherboard) , passively cooled :

$55 : ASRock QC5000M AMD FT3 Kabini A4-5000 Quad-Core APU SOC Micro ATX Motherboard/CPU Combo http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157616&ignorebbr=1  (almost 2x raw peformance of the one below but that one's Intel)
$55 : ASRock D1800M Intel Dual-Core Celeron Processor J1800 Micro ATX Motherboard/CPU/VGA Combo  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157514&ignorebbr=1

or buy separately

Motherboards:
$30 : ASRock AM1B-M AM1 : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157489&ignorebbr=1
$35 : GIGABYTE GA-AM1M-S2H AM1 : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128696&ignorebbr=1

or you can go with a mITX motherboard that has the added benefit of a DC In connector, which allows you to use a regular 19v laptop adapter brick, passive. 
(note though it has only one pci-e slot so you'd only be able to add one extra card, see below)

$48 : ASRock AM1H-ITX AM1 : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157491&ignorebbr=1

CPUs (maybe cheaper on Amazon or somewhere else, newegg was just easy to use):

$32 : AMD 2650 kabini dual core 1.4 ghz : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA1UH3ZW2894
$38 : AMD 3850 kabini quad core 1.3 ghz : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113366&ignorebbr=1
$43 : AMD 5350 quad core 2.05 ghz http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819113364&ignorebbr=1

Optional (passive heatsink):

$11 : Arctic Alpine M1 Passive Cooling Fan ACALP00005A : https://www.amazon.com/Arctic-Alpine-Passive-Cooling-ACALP00005A/dp/B00U8PUNH2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477266281&sr=8-1&keywords=am1+passive+heatsink

Memory :  as much as you want, plain DDR3 up to 16 GB or 32 GB depending on motherboard . AM1 cpus are single channel so no benefit from using 2 memory sticks

$13 : Kingston 2 GB 1600 Mhz http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820239850&ignorebbr=1

NIC :

Motherboards have built in 1gbps network card  Realtek 8111GR is the most common chip used.
Both suggested motherboards have a pci-e x16 slot (electrically x4) and some  have one or two pci-e x1 slots.

So you could make a system with a 55$ mb/cpu/vga combo + $13 ram stick and some power supply that will use so little power it would never start its fan.

You can buy a quality intel quad port gigabit network card from ebay for less than 50$, here's just an example. Here's another one
If you want, you can buy an additional gigabit intel card on pci-e x1 slot if you prefer to have 5 gigabit ports all intel for whatever better performance you want

If you want low profile, you can also buy pci-e riser cables for a few dollars each.

And it's doable, could be done for less than 100$ if you're in US and you're lucky on ebay.