Author Topic: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries  (Read 27310 times)

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Online ZuccaTopic starter

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Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« on: October 19, 2018, 08:44:48 pm »


Do not know how it will end up... but it got my 100% attention.
From what I know I tend to stay at Louis Rossmann side...

#righttorepair
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 08:48:35 pm by zucca »
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Online Bud

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2018, 08:56:22 pm »
Time to register Right to Repair (RTR) party and go to next elections.
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Offline tooki

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2018, 08:57:50 pm »
I didn't watch the video (Rossmann just gets on my nerves TBH), but I did read the letter he received. As far as I'm concerned, as long as there's evidence that the items with Apple logos on them are genuine Apple parts, then Apple should have no legal basis on which to block the import. But it seems that on this specific issue (of whether a company can bar gray-market imports of products manufactured abroad), US law is somewhere between "undefined" and "leaning towards the side of the trademark holder".  :-\ I suspect that, from a legal standpoint, this is not a "right-to-repair" question, but one of gray-market imports in general.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2018, 09:15:23 pm »
I didn't watch the video (Rossmann just gets on my nerves TBH), but I did read the letter he received. As far as I'm concerned, as long as there's evidence that the items with Apple logos on them are genuine Apple parts, then Apple should have no legal basis on which to block the import. But it seems that on this specific issue (of whether a company can bar gray-market imports of products manufactured abroad), US law is somewhere between "undefined" and "leaning towards the side of the trademark holder".  :-\ I suspect that, from a legal standpoint, this is not a "right-to-repair" question, but one of gray-market imports in general.
There used to be regular pictures in newspapers and news magazines of bulldozers running over boxes of fake Rolex watches and similar counterfeit merchandise at the ports of entry.  As far as I know, the copyright holder CAN get legal permission to seize and destroy counterfeits bearing their trademark, but it is entirely up to the trademark owner to know when the counterfeits are coming in and direct customs agents to hold the shipment and wait for the trademark owner to get a court order.

Anybody who is importing shady trademarked merchandise should be VERY cautious about it, and it is almost certain that if you buy Apple-trademarked bare batteries from China, they are either stolen or counterfeit.

Jon
 

Offline TK

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2018, 09:19:43 pm »
This has nothing to do with Right to Repair.  You cannot import trademarked products without the written consent of the trademark owner, plain and simple.  Fluke did something similar with some yellow and black meters (apparently they own the yellow black multimeter design trademark), so it is not only apple.  Any company must protect themselves from this kind of activity.
 
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Offline TK

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2018, 09:21:16 pm »
@OP, I suggest you edit the Subject of this title because you are making a false accusation and you can get into trouble
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2018, 09:40:37 pm »
This has nothing to do with Right to Repair.  You cannot import trademarked products without the written consent of the trademark owner, plain and simple.

   Exactly.

    It's real simple Louis, buy Chinese batteries that aren't marked as "Apple" batteries.  Generic labeled batteries work just as well as the brand-labeled ones.  If unmarked ones aren't available you could even have your Chinese supplier scrape the fake Apple label off before sending them. 

    Or where you planning on re-selling them to unsuspecting customers as a genuine Apple product???  Since I doubt that you needed fifty battery packs for your own use.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2018, 09:41:19 pm »
This has nothing to do with Right to Repair.  You cannot import trademarked products without the written consent of the trademark owner, plain and simple.
Please quote a law which says that. I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist because it goes straight against the principles of a free market. For example: think about buying a Keysight scope from Ebay and import it to a different country ? ? ? ? it just doesn't make sense to have such a law. Also if such a law existed then Apple would have referred to that and not lied about the batteries being fakes. Unfortunately the US isn't the only country where the customs department functions as an extension to big companies.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2018, 09:51:32 pm »
My guess is that crApple told the customs people that because they refuse to sell the batteries, anything that comes in must be fake, despite it being quite possible that they are genuine second-hand ones.

Apparently the Chinese suppliers normally remove the Apple marks but forgot in this case.

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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2018, 10:17:26 pm »
My guess is that crApple told the customs people that because they refuse to sell the batteries, anything that comes in must be fake,

   Unfortunately, that's Apple's prerogative, the same as it's the prerogative of any company that owns a trademark and that marks it on their parts.  If you don't like then don't buy their product.   Personally I don't like companies that don't allow their products to be repaired and that don't supply at least some service information so I don't buy their products.  It's why I own an old Miller 180 SD welder and a Miller Synchrowave 300 welder instead of a cheap Chinese welder or any of the newer inverter welders. And no, I don't own any Apple product because of their closed architecture/technology and I haven't since I sold my Apple Lisas many years ago.

Quote
despite it being quite possible that they are genuine second-hand ones.

   Show me where Louis states that they ARE second hand ones.

    I think Customs is capable of figuring out whether the items are new and are counterfeit or are old and used.  If Louis thinks the parts are genuine, either old or new, used or not, he can certainly take his case to court and present his evidence.
 

Offline TK

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2018, 10:17:51 pm »
This has nothing to do with Right to Repair.  You cannot import trademarked products without the written consent of the trademark owner, plain and simple.
Please quote a law which says that. I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist because it goes straight against the principles of a free market. For example: think about buying a Keysight scope from Ebay and import it to a different country ? ? ? ? it just doesn't make sense to have such a law. Also if such a law existed then Apple would have referred to that and not lied about the batteries being fakes. Unfortunately the US isn't the only country where the customs department functions as an extension to big companies.
Free market is an economic concept, there is no such thing as free market (as in free speech) in the real world.  Free market does not mean anyone can sell or trade anything that they want, just imagine what would happen to drugs, guns, etc.  Keysight can track the authenticity of the item with the serial number.  If the apple batteries can be traced to be original, I am sure Louis can get them from customs.  Any trademark law protects companies from this type of situation.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2018, 10:31:47 pm »
    I think Customs is capable of figuring out whether the items are new and are counterfeit or are old and used.
Unlikely - they probably consult the trademark holder, who will tell them whatever is in their best interests.
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Offline tooki

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2018, 10:39:35 pm »
My guess is that crApple told the customs people that because they refuse to sell the batteries, anything that comes in must be fake, despite it being quite possible that they are genuine second-hand ones.
Well, "we stopped making these years ago and our supply chain ran dry ages ago, so if they are new and have our branding, they must be fake" is a fairly credible argument. I don't think it's terribly likely that there are many used batteries around that are in such good condition that they could pass for new. (Remember, "vintage" is Apple's status for machines that have been discontinued for 5-7 years. So any NOS batteries are likely to be somewhat old, too.)

Apple, like any other trademark holder, must diligently protect its trademarks against counterfeiting, or else they risk losing the trademark if a pattern of non-enforcement stands for long enough. (Disclaimer: IANAL and that's basically a summary of the summaries I found while researching this reply.) IIRC, it's the same reason why Fluke insisted on not allowing those Sparkfun meters into USA, even though Fluke freely admitted they didn't like having to be so hard about it.

So with that said, I think the real question is whether they're actually genuine Apple products or not. If they're fake, then yeah, they should be seized. (I have no issue with third-party parts, they just need to be labeled honestly.) If they are genuine, whether new old stock or used, then I think they should be allowed in regardless of Apple's opinions on the matter.

Where Rossman really has a point (made in the prior video, his rant while biking) is this: Does an item that was originally genuine, but which has been repaired using third-party components, cease to be a genuine article? Because in that video, he talked about screens being seized that were original Apple screens, but which had been repaired (cracked front glass replacement) in China. So no, the part isn't 100% original any more, but it mostly is, and the third-party part is not one where the OEM is of much significance. Replacing Apple glass with aftermarket glass doesn't make the remaining parts (such as the flex cable with its Apple logo) any less genuine. Nobody would argue that, say, an iMac whose original hard drive was replaced with a third-party hard drive is any less an Apple product now than before, and I think similar logic should apply to all parts. (In the interest of honesty, I would support rules requiring a disclaimer to the effect of "This item has been repaired using third-party replacement parts.") Yet apparently, those parts have been seized for bearing an Apple logo — a logo which was applied by Apple itself.


One final thought: I do not buy Rossmann's claim of convenient timing. 1) His prior rant about this was before the CBC piece aired, and 2) I don't think that a trademark holder can tell Customs to target a specific entity, not in this way. AFAIK, a trademark holder basically tells Customs to watch for certain types of fakes, and then Customs decides what shipments to inspect. In other words, I wonder to what extent Customs itself is making mistakes in identifying fake items. (And of course, Apple isn't going to go out of its way to prove the authenticity…)
 
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Offline TK

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2018, 01:01:38 am »
One final thought: I do not buy Rossmann's claim of convenient timing. 1) His prior rant about this was before the CBC piece aired, and 2) I don't think that a trademark holder can tell Customs to target a specific entity, not in this way. AFAIK, a trademark holder basically tells Customs to watch for certain types of fakes, and then Customs decides what shipments to inspect. In other words, I wonder to what extent Customs itself is making mistakes in identifying fake items. (And of course, Apple isn't going to go out of its way to prove the authenticity…)
I agree 100%, I don't think US customs (or any government agency) can act so quickly.
 
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Offline alpher

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2018, 02:25:12 am »
One final thought: I do not buy Rossmann's claim of convenient timing. 1) His prior rant about this was before the CBC piece aired, and 2) I don't think that a trademark holder can tell Customs to target a specific entity, not in this way. AFAIK, a trademark holder basically tells Customs to watch for certain types of fakes, and then Customs decides what shipments to inspect. In other words, I wonder to what extent Customs itself is making mistakes in identifying fake items. (And of course, Apple isn't going to go out of its way to prove the authenticity…)
I agree 100%, I don't think US customs (or any government agency) can act so quickly.
Not sure about US, but let me tell you about canadian customs, not only they will act on the slightest "hint" ,they will hold your shipment for a minimum a couple of weeks, then you will have to pay an inspection fee (no matter if they find your shipment to be perfectly legal) of a few thousand $, and only then release your shipment further.
So if your "competition" knows in advance of your deal it can kill it right there.
So if your margins are small, better keep it to yourself, certainly dont post it on youtube.
It's hard enough to deal with the government, let alone apple lawyers.


 

Offline cdev

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2018, 02:34:08 am »
Its all about buying rights to territory. If MegaDeafCorp buys the right to your country's market (and you) they have the right to prevent any government allowing any circumvention of their property rights.

Suppose they bought a right to a hot new cancer drug and you had cancer, went around the law and bought it from India, saving yourself a million dollars. Where does that leave them?

This has nothing to do with Right to Repair.  You cannot import trademarked products without the written consent of the trademark owner, plain and simple.
Please quote a law which says that. I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist because it goes straight against the principles of a free market. For example: think about buying a Keysight scope from Ebay and import it to a different country ? ? ? ? it just doesn't make sense to have such a law. Also if such a law existed then Apple would have referred to that and not lied about the batteries being fakes. Unfortunately the US isn't the only country where the customs department functions as an extension to big companies.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2018, 10:15:04 am »
Its all about buying rights to territory. If MegaDeafCorp buys the right to your country's market (and you) they have the right to prevent any government allowing any circumvention of their property rights.

Suppose they bought a right to a hot new cancer drug and you had cancer, went around the law and bought it from India, saving yourself a million dollars. Where does that leave them?
Empty handed because such deals are unenforceable. Some big companies try to do that by denying customer service on products brought outside the country but there is no legal way to stop it. Also companies like to spread FUD about buying abroad being illegal but it isn't (again: which is why Apple is playing the counterfeit card).

What you describe is happening on a large scale already and saving people a lot of money on medicines.

PS: I'm writing about non-counterfeit items here.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 10:17:18 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2018, 02:09:22 pm »
Just remember Rossman makes a lot of YouTube revenue shitting on the company.

Not suggesting they are an angelic company by any means (name one that is!) but the point here is that Apple isn’t doing anything wrong here. Louis imported grey market products that had Apple logos on, refurbished or new or whatever. That’s a risk and it didn’t play out well. He clearly doesn’t understand the market or risk and is spinning it.

This is the same as literally any import scenarios where a brand is involved.

Fans are lapping it up though. Hate is easy to sell.
 
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Offline TK

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2018, 02:26:38 pm »
And the Canadian TV program Rossmann mentions at the beginning, it looks fishy to me.  It is certain that apple genius bar just run a software diagnostics to reach the repair cost conclusion, I am sure they did not open the macbook and checked all the possible hardware failures.  Rossmann finds a display cable PIN that is BENT, repairs it and the macbook comes back to life... the display error was already there when the TV crew brings the macbook to the apple store, so somebody opened the macbook before and they voluntarily or involuntarily BENT the display pin.  It sounds to me that somebody CREATED the situation to show an extreme case of "THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS" quoted by apple VS "ONE BENT PIN ON THE DISPLAY CABLE" that was fixed within 5 minutes by Rossmann...  It looks suspicious to me.  When Rossmann fixes macbooks by looking at the schematics and swapping chips, that is credible... a BENT display pin and he goes directly to it as soon as he opens the macbook?????

The video here:
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 02:30:08 pm by TK »
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2018, 02:35:38 pm »
Quote
a BENT display pin and he goes directly to it as soon as he opens the macbook?????

It's almost as if he's done this for years and knows what to look for. ::)
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2018, 03:34:04 pm »
This has nothing to do with Right to Repair.  You cannot import trademarked products without the written consent of the trademark owner, plain and simple.
Please quote a law which says that. I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist because it goes straight against the principles of a free market. For example: think about buying a Keysight scope from Ebay and import it to a different country ? ? ? ? it just doesn't make sense to have such a law. Also if such a law existed then Apple would have referred to that and not lied about the batteries being fakes. Unfortunately the US isn't the only country where the customs department functions as an extension to big companies.

The applicable section of USC is given in the letter.  I'm not going to look it up but, rest assured, there is a law!
And they're fake unless Apple says they're real, that is, you buy them from Apple.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2018, 04:13:23 pm »
This has nothing to do with Right to Repair.  You cannot import trademarked products without the written consent of the trademark owner, plain and simple.
Please quote a law which says that. I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist because it goes straight against the principles of a free market. For example: think about buying a Keysight scope from Ebay and import it to a different country ? ? ? ? it just doesn't make sense to have such a law. Also if such a law existed then Apple would have referred to that and not lied about the batteries being fakes. Unfortunately the US isn't the only country where the customs department functions as an extension to big companies.
The applicable section of USC is given in the letter.  I'm not going to look it up but, rest assured, there is a law!
And they're fake unless Apple says they're real, that is, you buy them from Apple.
You just fell for the FUD companies are spreading!  :palm:
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2018, 04:31:08 pm »
Quote
a BENT display pin and he goes directly to it as soon as he opens the macbook?????
It's almost as if he's done this for years and knows what to look for. ::)

Yes the screen connector is the first thing you'd check if the screen is failing, but a pin can't bend itself, somebody has had to bend it...
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 04:52:53 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline janoc

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2018, 04:43:46 pm »
I really don't get what the fuss is about - when someone imports a container load of shoes with Adidas or Nike logos on them or yellow & blue soldering stations with Hakko's logo, they will also get seized as counterfeit.

That's not only in the US, this works very much the same in Europe like this too. That's the entire purpose of having a trademark registered - preventing others from using that mark to sell items that look like the ones made by you (and potentially profit from your reputation).

That the battery was once Apple made and had an Apple logo on it doesn't mean it is OK to have it torn apart somewhere in China, have the guts replaced with who knows what and import it back looking as a genuine Apple article, logos and all. All the repair and stifling competition stuff aside, Apple would be foolish to not act on this because if the battery blows up, it would be their reputation at stake given that it was an "Apple" battery that has gone bang.

That Louis and a lot of other people don't get this and don't understand the law is really not Apple's problem. All he had to do was to ask the refurbisher/seller to remove the Apple markings. But controversy sells.

You just fell for the FUD companies are spreading!  :palm:

No, it is sadly you who has no clue what you are talking about. Try to import such goods to Netherlands and you will see what your customs will do with it. FYI:

https://www.government.nl/topics/export-import-and-customs/counterfeit-seizures

« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 04:49:13 pm by janoc »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2018, 04:51:22 pm »
This has nothing to do with Right to Repair.  You cannot import trademarked products without the written consent of the trademark owner, plain and simple.
Please quote a law which says that. I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist because it goes straight against the principles of a free market. For example: think about buying a Keysight scope from Ebay and import it to a different country ? ? ? ? it just doesn't make sense to have such a law. Also if such a law existed then Apple would have referred to that and not lied about the batteries being fakes. Unfortunately the US isn't the only country where the customs department functions as an extension to big companies.
The applicable section of USC is given in the letter.  I'm not going to look it up but, rest assured, there is a law!
And they're fake unless Apple says they're real, that is, you buy them from Apple.
You just fell for the FUD companies are spreading!  :palm:



Have you read the 19 USC 1526 section?  Well here it is!

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/19/1526

Quote
(a) Importation prohibited
Except as provided in subsection (d) of this section, it shall be unlawful to import into the United States any merchandise of foreign manufacture if such merchandise, or the label, sign, print, package, wrapper, or receptacle, bears a trademark owned by a citizen of, or by a corporation or association created or organized within, the United States, and registered in the Patent and Trademark Office by a person domiciled in the United States, under the provisions of sections 81 to 109 of title 15, and if a copy of the certificate of registration of such trademark is filed with the Secretary of the Treasury, in the manner provided in section 106 of said title 15, unless written consent of the owner of such trademark is produced at the time of making entry.

(b) Seizure and forfeiture
Any such merchandise imported into the United States in violation of the provisions of this section shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture for violation of the customs laws.

...

So, yes the IS a law that precludes importing goods that violate trademarks.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 04:53:32 pm by rstofer »
 
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