Author Topic: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries  (Read 27321 times)

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Online tooki

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #75 on: October 21, 2018, 12:16:13 pm »
I simply meant that only Apple being able to import genuine Apple-branded parts is anti-competitive
Right. But the question you actually asked was "doesn't this conflict with anti-monopoly laws?", and the answer to that is "no", because the laws are designed to protect a different aspect from this. There might be other laws it conflicts with, but at the moment, I doubt it, insofar as it is other laws (namely, intellectual property laws) that cause the anti-competitive situation on purpose.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 12:31:17 pm by tooki »
 

Online tooki

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2018, 12:29:38 pm »
That's not news, that's how things work. Spare parts cost a LOT extra, due to the far more complex logistics and completely different cost and labor structure of spare parts.
Who in sane mind replaces very expensive Mobo, CPU and RAM as a single part?  :palm: (again, each of those is removable). It's a freaking computer, 30 minute labor of computer technician doesn't cost several thousands of $.
First of all… dude, calm down a bit! Your entire post is full of rage! It's just a computer, and one you probably don't even own.

So as for how the parts are swapped: Who cares?!? As I explained, the normal situation with major Apple parts is that spare parts are sold on the basis of a swap. So if (totally random number here), Apple charges $1000 for the board swap itself, what difference does it make that the CPUs and RAM came with it? In the end, for the $1000, you end up with one working board, one set of CPUs, and the same RAM. You received one, and you sent one back. You do not end up with extra CPUs and RAM.

I literally do not understand why this matters. You aren't paying any more or less due to this.


Quote
discovered that service parts cost a LOT more than those parts do when sold as part of a finished product.
First Apple would not fix it at all because LCD could not be ordered. And again, why the hell they cannot replace motherboard separately and replace basically all internals when any other MFG can do this for an order of magnitude cheaper products.
Was the screen not offered as a service part at all, or was it just delayed?

As for the "why the hell…" thing: If the repair costs more than a new unit, why do it?!?

Also why in the hell they do not allow AASPs to keep components in stock?
They do allow it, they just make it prohibitively expensive. But honestly, I don't know why they do this, to me it makes no sense.

Quote
All of us here understand why it is that when we order 10 pieces of a component from Digi-Key, we are paying far more per piece than an electronics vendor who orders 10 million pieces directly from the manufacturer. It's the exact same thing with subassemblies of a computer. But Linus's business is getting clicks, and whining about Apple is a reliable way to do that.
Why basically anyone else do not have this issue while selling much wider range of products?
What? Uhhh, in ANY mass-produced product that can be repaired, the spare parts cost FAR more as spares than as a part of a finished product!! Whether it's a car, a TV, a kitchen mixer, a phone, a computer, a piece of furniture, clothing, or literally ANYTHING ELSE that is made up of individual parts, you WILL pay more (usually FAR more) per part when buying them as spares than you pay for that part when buying the finished product. This is not particular to Apple, it is literally a core principle in mass-produced products: making them in large amounts so you benefit from economies of scale. The economies of scale vanish when you have to create alternative, low-volume supply chains for spare parts, which must be individually packaged and sold.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 12:32:40 pm by tooki »
 

Offline petert

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2018, 12:51:04 pm »
People who say this is just hating on Apple should read this news:
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a3yadk/apple-sued-an-independent-iphone-repair-shop-owner-and-lost

Apple puts logos on every little part (including internal ones where it will never be seen by a user) to prevent anybody else from repairing their devices, playing the counterfeit card if they are bought used.
Knowing there are no other substitutes, this effectively prevents independent repair.

Apple also lobbies against the right to repair.

 
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Offline petert

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #78 on: October 21, 2018, 01:04:40 pm »
Unfortunately, the way the laws are written, in many countries, only the manufacturer (or their designated assignees) can import their products, regardless of provenance.

The concept you're referring to (that the manufacturer has no say, once they've sold it) is, in the United States, enshrined in law as the "first sale doctrine", and initially, I assumed this would apply. But apparently, it does NOT apply outside of USA, so if the sale occurred outside USA, then the US first sale doctrine cannot apply (SCOTUS ruled on this long ago and decided it cannot apply, as it would be extra-jurisdictional application of US law). And so then the aforementioned US Code section applies, regarding trademark.

I don't like this situation, but legally it's fairly clear. :/
Doesn't this conflict with anti-monopoly law ?
I don't think so, in that anti-monopoly (antitrust) laws are designed to address an industry. Apple clearly does not hold a monopoly in any major industry they operate in (having a minority market share in personal computers, mobile phones, set-top boxes, media streaming, etc). Other vendors sell such items as well, so there's no monopoly issue here. Microsoft ran into issues with antitrust laws in the 90s when Windows and IE each held >90% market share, and it was successfully argued that Microsoft had accomplished that through anticompetitive measures like requiring PC vendors to buy a Windows license for every single PC they sold, even if the customer actually wanted an alternative OS like OS/2, OpenStep, or another UNIX variant.
The repair market is another one than selling new units.

If only Apple can supply spare parts, this could well be considered a monopoly. It's the same with car repair, where at least in the EU, it has been ruled illegal to force customers to only go to mechanics officially selected by the manufacturers. They try to get around that with a lot of tricks, such as making it hard to get spare parts or make them incompatible, but the intent of the law makers are clear, and there are constantly new cases that deal with these tactics.
 

Offline Terrius

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #79 on: October 21, 2018, 01:08:00 pm »
Quote
discovered that service parts cost a LOT more than those parts do when sold as part of a finished product.
First Apple would not fix it at all because LCD could not be ordered. And again, why the hell they cannot replace motherboard separately and replace basically all internals when any other MFG can do this for an order of magnitude cheaper products.
Was the screen not offered as a service part at all, or was it just delayed?

The screen was not offered at all. Apple held the device for a period of time after agreeing to service it and then outright refused all support. This is what caused Linus' initial outrage.

As for the "why the hell…" thing: If the repair costs more than a new unit, why do it?!?

It doesn't, the Apple OEM components (replacing everything) would still cost less than a new unit.

Also why in the hell they do not allow AASPs to keep components in stock?
They do allow it, they just make it prohibitively expensive. But honestly, I don't know why they do this, to me it makes no sense.

They do this to control the supply chain and prevent third party access to "Apple authorized" components.

Quote
All of us here understand why it is that when we order 10 pieces of a component from Digi-Key, we are paying far more per piece than an electronics vendor who orders 10 million pieces directly from the manufacturer. It's the exact same thing with subassemblies of a computer. But Linus's business is getting clicks, and whining about Apple is a reliable way to do that.
Why basically anyone else do not have this issue while selling much wider range of products?
What? Uhhh, in ANY mass-produced product that can be repaired, the spare parts cost FAR more as spares than as a part of a finished product!! Whether it's a car, a TV, a kitchen mixer, a phone, a computer, a piece of furniture, clothing, or literally ANYTHING ELSE that is made up of individual parts, you WILL pay more (usually FAR more) per part when buying them as spares than you pay for that part when buying the finished product. This is not particular to Apple, it is literally a core principle in mass-produced products: making them in large amounts so you benefit from economies of scale. The economies of scale vanish when you have to create alternative, low-volume supply chains for spare parts, which must be individually packaged and sold.

This is only accurate if you are comparing Third Party pricing for the spare parts. First Party pricing costs little more than the original assembly of the unit (there are added shipping costs for parts).

There seems to be a misconception that Apple is selling these devices for less than it costs them to make. Apple doesn't pull Sony/Microsoft console moves with their devices (Xboxs and Playstations are sold at a loss but make back their money via game liscensing). Apple makes a large margin off every device and the actual device cost for them is far lower than the sticker price consumers end up paying. There is no possible way that even with replacing every single component it would "cost more to repair than buy a new device". The reason they push for a "it is too broken you need to buy new" is that they make far more money from that than they would the repair service. This is why Right to Repair is so important.
 
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Offline TK

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #80 on: October 21, 2018, 01:18:31 pm »
Apple puts logos on every little part (including internal ones where it will never be seen by a user) to prevent anybody else from repairing their devices, playing the counterfeit card if they are bought used.
Knowing there are no other substitutes, this effectively prevents independent repair.
This was common practice with all the manufacturers that can afford volume production, HP used to have all the ICs used in test equipment labeled with HP part number, every single one of them, including common TTL, ECL, OpAmp, etc.
 

Offline MT

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #81 on: October 21, 2018, 01:24:42 pm »
Unfortunately, the way the laws are written, in many countries, only the manufacturer (or their designated assignees) can import their products, regardless of provenance.

The concept you're referring to (that the manufacturer has no say, once they've sold it) is, in the United States, enshrined in law as the "first sale doctrine", and initially, I assumed this would apply. But apparently, it does NOT apply outside of USA, so if the sale occurred outside USA, then the US first sale doctrine cannot apply (SCOTUS ruled on this long ago and decided it cannot apply, as it would be extra-jurisdictional application of US law). And so then the aforementioned US Code section applies, regarding trademark.

I don't like this situation, but legally it's fairly clear. :/

So local USA recycling center can export its electronic APPLE trash to African/China recycle centers while Luis are denied to import back the same trash?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 01:27:36 pm by MT »
 

Offline petert

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #82 on: October 21, 2018, 01:38:32 pm »
Apple puts logos on every little part (including internal ones where it will never be seen by a user) to prevent anybody else from repairing their devices, playing the counterfeit card if they are bought used.
Knowing there are no other substitutes, this effectively prevents independent repair.
This was common practice with all the manufacturers that can afford volume production, HP used to have all the ICs used in test equipment labeled with HP part number, every single one of them, including common TTL, ECL, OpAmp, etc.
You can't compare that. HP sold many ICs separately, so they had an interest to protect them against being counterfeit. Additionally, there are/were many alternatives for those items from other manufacturers. Many of the Apple items are made only by Apple (at least in a compatible form) and only available in complete products.
That they sue a repair shop that explicitly does not try to brand it as Apple original, makes pretty clear that they try to control their market.
Quote
PCKompaniet has never removed the coverup of the Apple logo on the screens that have been imported and has no interest in doing so. PCKompaniet does not pretend or market itself as Apple authorized and does not give any indication that the repair comes with an Apple warranty.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 01:41:24 pm by petert »
 

Offline petert

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #83 on: October 21, 2018, 01:50:22 pm »
This has nothing to do with Right to Repair.  You cannot import trademarked products without the written consent of the trademark owner, plain and simple.

   Exactly.

    It's real simple Louis, buy Chinese batteries that aren't marked as "Apple" batteries.  Generic labeled batteries work just as well as the brand-labeled ones.  If unmarked ones aren't available you could even have your Chinese supplier scrape the fake Apple label off before sending them. 

    Or where you planning on re-selling them to unsuspecting customers as a genuine Apple product???  Since I doubt that you needed fifty battery packs for your own use.
Apples sues even when the logos are covered up, and nothing about original parts or warranty is even marketed or implied. They lost their case, but their intent is obvious. I don't get why people defend this, or try to criminalize perfectly normal behavior of repair shops.

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a3yadk/apple-sued-an-independent-iphone-repair-shop-owner-and-lost
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 01:51:56 pm by petert »
 

Online wraper

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #84 on: October 21, 2018, 02:15:55 pm »
Quote
All of us here understand why it is that when we order 10 pieces of a component from Digi-Key, we are paying far more per piece than an electronics vendor who orders 10 million pieces directly from the manufacturer. It's the exact same thing with subassemblies of a computer. But Linus's business is getting clicks, and whining about Apple is a reliable way to do that.
Why basically anyone else do not have this issue while selling much wider range of products?
What? Uhhh, in ANY mass-produced product that can be repaired, the spare parts cost FAR more as spares than as a part of a finished product!! Whether it's a car, a TV, a kitchen mixer, a phone, a computer, a piece of furniture, clothing, or literally ANYTHING ELSE that is made up of individual parts, you WILL pay more (usually FAR more) per part when buying them as spares than you pay for that part when buying the finished product. This is not particular to Apple, it is literally a core principle in mass-produced products: making them in large amounts so you benefit from economies of scale. The economies of scale vanish when you have to create alternative, low-volume supply chains for spare parts, which must be individually packaged and sold.
Anyone else is able to establish spare part stock of much cheaper parts than these, with more than an order of magnitude more different parts. Offering $2000+ mobo swap with returning your original CPU and RAM to apple in insane. They need to carry each variation of mobo/CPU/RAM config so likely there are even more part numbers to carry in stock. And in case warranty sticker on the mobo was damaged -> fuck you our dear customer, no repair for you.

In the not so distant past I myself worked in manufacturer authorized service center. We were authorized by apple (I repaired other brand) as well in the last years I worked there, and they were a special snowflake among all others. Basically preventing doing actual repair.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 02:19:48 pm by wraper »
 

Offline MT

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #85 on: October 21, 2018, 02:17:19 pm »
People who say this is just hating on Apple should read this news:
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a3yadk/apple-sued-an-independent-iphone-repair-shop-owner-and-lost

Apple puts logos on every little part (including internal ones where it will never be seen by a user) to prevent anybody else from repairing their devices, playing the counterfeit card if they are bought used. Knowing there are no other substitutes, this effectively prevents independent repair.  Apple also lobbies against the right to repair.
Interesting case!
If the Chinese refurbisher/manufacturer just said on the batt/screen package; this is not a APPLE product just a third part replacement battery for this and this Apple product (Logo scraped off in case of refurbishments), everything would
be fine and APPLE could not do a damned thing i suppose.
 

Online tooki

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #86 on: October 21, 2018, 02:21:43 pm »
The screen was not offered at all. Apple held the device for a period of time after agreeing to service it and then outright refused all support. This is what caused Linus' initial outrage.
OK, without really wanting to get into all the details of the Linus debacle, since I think he's a clickbait prick with questionable ethics, but I checked a few different summaries of what happened, and the gist of it is this:

1. Apple releases iMac Pro
2. Linus cracks the screen, and in investigating that, also breaks the logic board and PSU. This voids the warranty.
3. Linus goes to Apple to request repair and gets an estimate which is already at the cost of a whole new unit. (So the prices for repairs are already established.)
4. It turns out Apple has not yet, at that point, made all of the module-level parts available yet. (Presumably, warranty repairs at this point would be fulfilled by simply replacing the whole unit, which could be refurbished at a later date.)
5. Apple informs Linus that they can't perform out of warranty repairs at this time.
6. Linus makes video, since Apple-hating gets clicks.
7. Profit!

The situation does raise the question of how Apple would handle accidental damage cases at that time. Presumably, for sensible repairs (i.e. ones that don't approach or exceed the cost of a new machine), they'd do what they've done in the past, and simply offered a whole machine swap for the price of just the repair that is needed.

They didn't want to do that with Linus's machine because the damage was too extensive, and it was entirely self-inflicted damage. The machine's warranty was voided, and they were under no obligation to perform that repair, even if he was willing to pay.

I don't blame them. If someone showed up with a box of parts (as apparently was essentially what they did) and said "how much to fix this" I'd probably tell them to go away, too.

As for the "why the hell…" thing: If the repair costs more than a new unit, why do it?!?

It doesn't, the Apple OEM components (replacing everything) would still cost less than a new unit.
|O The cost of providing a customer a finished machine is FAR lower than that of essentially shipping it piecemeal and assembling it in the store. Do you not understand that spare parts DO NOT cost the same? They must be packaged individually, warehoused individually, orders collected and shipped, and then the returned parts must be diagnosed, repaired if necessary, retested, packaged, and warehoused to prepare them to re-enter the parts inventory? All of that is COST which must be added onto the cost of the part itself.

And that's before even considering the labor to order and install the replacement parts, take the old ones and ship them back, plus the labor to interact with the customer, store overhead, etc. It all costs money.

Also why in the hell they do not allow AASPs to keep components in stock?
They do allow it, they just make it prohibitively expensive. But honestly, I don't know why they do this, to me it makes no sense.
They do this to control the supply chain and prevent third party access to "Apple authorized" components.
Yes, but AASPs aren't allowed to sell spare parts anyway. They're only allowed to sell them as part of a repair.

What? Uhhh, in ANY mass-produced product that can be repaired, the spare parts cost FAR more as spares than as a part of a finished product!! Whether it's a car, a TV, a kitchen mixer, a phone, a computer, a piece of furniture, clothing, or literally ANYTHING ELSE that is made up of individual parts, you WILL pay more (usually FAR more) per part when buying them as spares than you pay for that part when buying the finished product. This is not particular to Apple, it is literally a core principle in mass-produced products: making them in large amounts so you benefit from economies of scale. The economies of scale vanish when you have to create alternative, low-volume supply chains for spare parts, which must be individually packaged and sold.
This is only accurate if you are comparing Third Party pricing for the spare parts.
Completely untrue, read on:

First Party pricing costs little more than the original assembly of the unit (there are added shipping costs for parts).
No. You are confusing the cost of the part in mass production vs. the cost of a part as a spare part. When a company (say, Apple) orders 500,000 modules at $10 each from a supplier, they're bulk-shipped, directly to the factory that will integrate them into a finished product. The bulk-packed modules enter the assembly line and are installed into products, combined with all the other parts that constitute the product. The finished products are packaged and shipped. (Apple keeps a very lean supply chain, so finished goods do not sit around at the factory for more than a day or so, but even parts are only around for a few days before being built into a product.)

Now, suppose Apple diverts 10% of those modules for spare parts. Now, each of those modules must be transferred from bulk packaging to spare parts packaging, such as an individual box. Each box is labeled. Then they must sit in a warehouse somewhere (because you don't know how many spares will be needed), for up to the 7 years required by some jurisdictions. Then, when ordered, it must be prepared for shipment, including order picking (handling) and shipped. All of that takes labor. All of this costs money. A lot of money. So now, that $10 part may have had another $30 in costs added to it, and that's before making a cent of profit on the sale of that part.  Now imagine doing the same thing for every single part in the product. It's a TON of added cost. (And yes, companies do add profit margins onto spare parts, and that's not unreasonable.)

Another approach would be to place separate spare parts orders from the supplier, with them already pre-packaged. So maybe it'd be $15 per module instead of $10. But the warehousing and logistics are still going to add on a lot and you'll end up with perhaps $25 total cost instead of $30.

There seems to be a misconception that Apple is selling these devices for less than it costs them to make. Apple doesn't pull Sony/Microsoft console moves with their devices (Xboxs and Playstations are sold at a loss but make back their money via game liscensing). Apple makes a large margin off every device and the actual device cost for them is far lower than the sticker price consumers end up paying.
Exactly nobody is saying that. What you don't understand is the difference between a part and a spare part. They have radically different cost structures.

There is no possible way that even with replacing every single component it would "cost more to repair than buy a new device". The reason they push for a "it is too broken you need to buy new" is that they make far more money from that than they would the repair service. This is why Right to Repair is so important.
Humor me: choose a current car model you like. Any brand. Get a service manual for it. Compile a complete list of all the parts you need to build that car. Now go to the dealer's spare parts counter and get an estimate for that list of parts. You'll find that it exceeds the cost of buying the finished car, many times over. And that's before you even spent dozens of hours assembling it.

It's the same with any mass-produced product. You're getting a massive savings buying the finished good versus a complete set of spare parts.

This is, by the way, precisely why cars get stolen: they are worth FAR more as parts than it is as assembled cars, even when already used. This is absolutely true of Apple gadgets, too, so I'm sure that some units are purchased simply to be parted out for repairs.
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #87 on: October 21, 2018, 02:32:32 pm »
Humor me: choose a current car model you like. Any brand. Get a service manual for it. Compile a complete list of all the parts you need to build that car. Now go to the dealer's spare parts counter and get an estimate for that list of parts. You'll find that it exceeds the cost of buying the finished car, many times over. And that's before you even spent dozens of hours assembling it.

It's the same with any mass-produced product. You're getting a massive savings buying the finished good versus a complete set of spare parts.

This is, by the way, precisely why cars get stolen: they are worth FAR more as parts than it is as assembled cars, even when already used. This is absolutely true of Apple gadgets, too, so I'm sure that some units are purchased simply to be parted out for repairs.
No humor there. Other manufacturer components are expensive but they don't ship them in such bundles to make repair even remotely not viable. Other manufacturers don't help doing 3rd party repairs but do not proactively prevent them either, and even if they do, not to this surreal extent. Servicing car comparison is irrelevant, it takes much more time to begin with. Motherboard swap is not something you'll spend several hours to do. FYI, for 2 of such MACs you can buy a brand new car, with a lot more parts to replace.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 02:36:03 pm by wraper »
 

Offline madires

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #88 on: October 21, 2018, 02:48:44 pm »
There's more hypocrisy: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphones-macbooks. Very green and eco-friendly, isn't it? >:D Independent repair shops would love to buy the old hardware for getting spare parts. No need to buy parts from dubious sources anymore. But large companies always try to gain full control of the complete life cycle of their products. The customer doesn't buy a product which he will own, he licenses only the usage for an unspecified time. :--
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #89 on: October 21, 2018, 03:03:45 pm »
Unfortunately, the way the laws are written, in many countries, only the manufacturer (or their designated assignees) can import their products, regardless of provenance.

The concept you're referring to (that the manufacturer has no say, once they've sold it) is, in the United States, enshrined in law as the "first sale doctrine", and initially, I assumed this would apply. But apparently, it does NOT apply outside of USA, so if the sale occurred outside USA, then the US first sale doctrine cannot apply (SCOTUS ruled on this long ago and decided it cannot apply, as it would be extra-jurisdictional application of US law). And so then the aforementioned US Code section applies, regarding trademark.

I don't like this situation, but legally it's fairly clear. :/
Have you seen the summary of the process of seizing goods and link to a page by a trademark law firm I posted before? Combined with the fact that we're not seeing the prohibiting of grey imports on a large scale, it doesn't appear that companies do have this power. Luckily so I'd say, but how I feel about it isn't entirely relevant to how things actually work.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #90 on: October 21, 2018, 03:04:38 pm »
As posted before: according to a page written by a law firm specializing in US trademark law it turns out that the procedure for seizing goods is well defined and has a couple of steps. A summary would be below.

*Customs suspects counterfeit goods and seizes them and notifies the importer. The importer has 30 days to deny the counterfeit nature of the goods or otherwise loses them.
*Customs then proceeds to inform the copyright owner that the goods will be released to the importer after 30 days and  provides a sample of the goods to the copyright holder. The copyright owner then has to both file a demand for the exclusion and pay a bond that will cover any losses the importer may suffer when the goods turn out not to infringe copyright.
*Both parties then have an additional 30 days for discovery and submission of legal briefs.  The burden of proof is on the party claiming that importation contains piratical goods.
*The Commissioner of Customs will receive the evidence and decide whether trademark has been infringed.

Note the third point, which is copied verbatim from the article linked. It appears that it is indeed Apple upon whom the burden of proof rests.

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=22d97bbe-887c-4740-9af5-0b6e9e75a961
 

Offline MT

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #91 on: October 21, 2018, 03:07:57 pm »
Humor me: choose a current car model you like. Any brand. Get a service manual for it. Compile a complete list of all the parts you need to build that car. Now go to the dealer's spare parts counter and get an estimate for that list of parts. You'll find that it exceeds the cost of buying the finished car, many times over. And that's before you even spent dozens of hours assembling it.

It's the same with any mass-produced product. You're getting a massive savings buying the finished good versus a complete set of spare parts.

This is, by the way, precisely why cars get stolen: they are worth FAR more as parts than it is as assembled cars, even when already used. This is absolutely true of Apple gadgets, too, so I'm sure that some units are purchased simply to be parted out for repairs.
Humor everyone:
How many third party car repair shops have been sued by the original car manufacturer?.......for repair works related to trademark breach i guess zero!? The car thats get stolen for parts is not average Joe car Nissan Micra those Baltic , Polish (not so much anymore) Russian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Albanian, thief clans goes only after very specific cars, at least here they do, less specific they are stolen assembled. Nissan Micras not stolen at all, so "any brand" is not stolen for parts or assembled. BMW and Apple can be said to be specific brands.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 03:35:11 pm by MT »
 

Online tooki

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #92 on: October 21, 2018, 04:28:00 pm »
No humor there. Other manufacturer components are expensive but they don't ship them in such bundles to make repair even remotely not viable. Other manufacturers don't help doing 3rd party repairs but do not proactively prevent them either, and even if they do, not to this surreal extent. Servicing car comparison is irrelevant, it takes much more time to begin with. Motherboard swap is not something you'll spend several hours to do. FYI, for 2 of such MACs you can buy a brand new car, with a lot more parts to replace.
:palm:

Actually, diagnosing computer problems can be extremely time-consuming. Several hours is absolutely a realistic amount of time for diagnosing many problems. And many car companies ARE only selling larger and larger modules and fewer individual components, so the trend in both industries is exactly the same. I'd say the car and computer industries are far more alike than they are different, in this regard.

Humor everyone:
How many third party car repair shops have been sued by the original car manufacturer?.......for repair works related to trademark breach i guess zero!?
I'm not aware of any cases involving repair shops as such, but there are ample cases involving parts vendors: http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2018/09/19/oem-trademarks-aftermarket-exploring-boundaries/id=101163/

Those are very similar to the case here. (Though trademark has nothing to do with my point about the cost of spare parts vs cost of the total vehicle… And don't ignore that I have said here repeatedly that I do not believe that companies should be allowed to block imports of genuine parts!!!)


The car thats get stolen for parts is not average Joe car Nissan Micra those Baltic , Polish (not so much anymore) Russian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Albanian, thief clans goes only after very specific cars, at least here they do, less specific they are stolen assembled. Nissan Micras not stolen at all, so "any brand" is not stolen for parts or assembled. BMW and Apple can be said to be specific brands.
Bullshit. You are confusing theft for resale of the whole car vs. theft for parting out.

The cars that are stolen for resale as a whole car are indeed special models.

The cars that get stolen the most are stolen for parts, and it's the same cars that are the most popular, because they then also get into the most accidents and thus need the most parts. (And of course, the most popular cars are also the most plentiful!) The most-stolen sedan in USA is the Toyota Camry, which is also the best-selling sedan. This is no coincidence.

https://autoweek.com/article/car-news/sum-parts-greater-whole-car-thieves explains:
Quote
The top 14 most replaced parts on the second most stolen vehicle in the U.S., the 2016 Nissan Altima, amount to $14,236, excluding labor, according to NICB. Given the $20,000 price of a 2016 Altima on the used market, it's easy to see how it's much easier for criminals to deal in parts alone.
$14K just for the 14 most replaced parts. Never mind all the remaining parts!


Could this be different by country? Of course. But the same market forces apply. Auto parts are an incredibly lucrative crime to be in, no matter where you are.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #93 on: October 21, 2018, 05:19:40 pm »
No humor there. Other manufacturer components are expensive but they don't ship them in such bundles to make repair even remotely not viable. Other manufacturers don't help doing 3rd party repairs but do not proactively prevent them either, and even if they do, not to this surreal extent. Servicing car comparison is irrelevant, it takes much more time to begin with. Motherboard swap is not something you'll spend several hours to do. FYI, for 2 of such MACs you can buy a brand new car, with a lot more parts to replace.
:palm:

Actually, diagnosing computer problems can be extremely time-consuming. Several hours is absolutely a realistic amount of time for diagnosing many problems. And many car companies ARE only selling larger and larger modules and fewer individual components, so the trend in both industries is exactly the same. I'd say the car and computer industries are far more alike than they are different, in this regard.
Then please explain how Louis can make a living from doing component level repairs while being located in one of the most expensive areas you could find. Are apple technicians not able to distinguish their head from their ass so dumb they cannot figure out if it's either motherboard, RAM or CPU is faulty in a reasonable amount of time? FYI computer tecnichians are usually paid <15$/h, even in expensive areas. If they replace $1000 mobo for $2000 and spend a whole day doing that on single computer, they still would be profitable. No, they are supposed to be so dumb (according to apple) they are only able replace mobo/RAM/CPU altogether  :palm:.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 05:27:11 pm by wraper »
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #94 on: October 21, 2018, 05:37:00 pm »
About doing component level repairs on consumer devices.... a couple of months ago I was in a small shop which is apparantly the official service center for Samsung. I noticed they had a whole bunch of SMT rework gear in a neatly organised lab. So even in a country with high labour costs it makes sense to do component level repairs on smartphones.
Also I disagree about time needed for diagnosis. I have some repair department experience myself and you quickly learn what the common defects are. The first diagnosis of a new device / unknown fault may take long but subsequent devices with the same symptoms are repaired quickly.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #95 on: October 21, 2018, 05:39:28 pm »
It's not realistic to expect every tech to be as skilled as Louis, he's clearly an expert in this particular area.

All of the current Apple products have the CPU, RAM and storage soldered to the motherboard, so of course they will be replaced as a unit by the standard field techs. This is the primary reason though that Apple won't get my money for a computer. I rather like the Macbook Pro I have as a work laptop but I would never spend my own money on a computer that is not upgradeable.
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #96 on: October 21, 2018, 05:44:33 pm »
It's not realistic to expect every tech to be as skilled as Louis, he's clearly an expert in this particular area.
Perhaps, but Louis appears to be able to teach repair techniques to a wide variety of ordinary citizens without any formal electronics training, from primary-school kids to bored grandmothers.  Louis himself has no formal technical education, IIRC.
 

Online tooki

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #97 on: October 21, 2018, 06:00:16 pm »
No humor there. Other manufacturer components are expensive but they don't ship them in such bundles to make repair even remotely not viable. Other manufacturers don't help doing 3rd party repairs but do not proactively prevent them either, and even if they do, not to this surreal extent. Servicing car comparison is irrelevant, it takes much more time to begin with. Motherboard swap is not something you'll spend several hours to do. FYI, for 2 of such MACs you can buy a brand new car, with a lot more parts to replace.
:palm:

Actually, diagnosing computer problems can be extremely time-consuming. Several hours is absolutely a realistic amount of time for diagnosing many problems. And many car companies ARE only selling larger and larger modules and fewer individual components, so the trend in both industries is exactly the same. I'd say the car and computer industries are far more alike than they are different, in this regard.
Then please explain how How Louis can make a living from doing component level repairs. Are apple technicians not able to distinguish their head from their ass so dumb they cannot figure out if it's either motherboard, RAM or CPU is faulty in a reasonable amount of time? FYI computer tecnichians are usually paid <15$/h, even in expensive areas. If they replace $1000 mobo for $2000 and spend a whole day doing that on single computer, they still would be profitable.
Sheesh, way to latch onto probably the least important part of my entire reply above, and then come back with a completely non-seguitur response!

You said that computers are quicker to fix than cars. I'm saying that's not always the case. That's it. (You say you worked in IT repair, but honestly, if you don't know that SOME failures take unusually long to diagnose, and how and why this is the case, I don't believe you.)

As for pay, computer techs and car mechanics earn similar hourly wages (though IT varies wildly depending on the employer), and they both charge similar rates. Note that the hourly wages and the hourly rates are worlds apart. In USA, for example, a common hourly rate for competent computer and auto repairs is about $100/h.

As for how Rossmann prices things, let's assume Rossmann charges that, and bases his per-job prices around that. He says many repairs are around $300. He's very experienced at the types of repairs he specializes in, so he'll be able to do most of them very quickly, making him a surplus at the promised price. The handful of cases that take longer are subsidized by the many more that are done quickly.

Apple has a totally different business model. They are in expensive, high-traffic, high-rent locations, and the bulk of their work is warranty repair. As such, they want to reduce labor cost in those expensive high-rent locations as much as possible. This means getting repairs done fast, and that's done by NOT doing component-level repairs! If you have an out-of-warranty repair, then going to Apple directly is often not the cheapest option. And that's OK!

By doing basically module-level repairs in the store, they minimize the overhead of the high-rent location. Then they can do the component-level repair offsite at a repair depot in a lower-overhead location, with people with a different set of skills and tools.

No, they are supposed to be so dumb (according to apple) they need to replace mobo/RAM/CPU altogether  :palm:.
Let. It. Go. It only matters if you're buying the part and not returning the used one. It's got nothing to do with intelligence of the staff, it has do to with logistics and business decisions.

Also I disagree about time needed for diagnosis. I have some repair department experience myself and you quickly learn what the common defects are. The first diagnosis of a new device / unknown fault may take long but subsequent devices with the same symptoms are repaired quickly.
If you actually have repair department experience, then you also know that SOME failures take a long time to diagnose. I NEVER said that ALL diagnostics take that long!!!   |O
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 06:02:17 pm by tooki »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #98 on: October 21, 2018, 06:05:52 pm »
Spot on.

Mantra is if you’re doing repairs charge by the hour not for the job.

Despite what people want and that’s fair, we live in a society where FRU replacement is so cheap it’s not worth replacing it. Humans are expensive and repairs are risky (another problem with board level repair). My iPhone 6s had a white patch on the screen. walked into Apple store and they just gave me a new handset.  :-//

Today is about insurance.

If your machine packs in Apple replace it. I’ve thrown tens of machines and iOS devices through them with no trouble or questions asked.

If you break it, you’re an idiot if (a) it’s not insured or (b) you can’t afford to replace it.

Louis fixes idiots hardware.

If you have a warranty problem, argue for better consumer protection legislation. Ours is good in Europe.

Incidentally I spent a long time moonlighting repairing Apple kit and it’s not worth it.

Edit: also I’m only a proponent of board level repair for data recovery. Once a board is repaired on hardware of that class it will fail again if it even works reliably and is tainted. Get your data off (even better back it up to start with) and get new hardware in. I’ve seen repairs done like that which fail a couple of weeks down the line.

And yes I have been that idiot. I have blown up a 2010 MBP. I poured a drink on the table and it sucked it up with capillary action and blew it up. This burned £1800 at the time instantly as I had no insurance coverage. Straight in the trash. I bought a 2011 MBP that cost me £3k right after that. You see where I’m going. The purchase price isn’t the end of it.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 06:33:29 pm by bd139 »
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Apple & Customs STOLE Louis Rossmann batteries
« Reply #99 on: October 21, 2018, 06:31:20 pm »
It's not realistic to expect every tech to be as skilled as Louis, he's clearly an expert in this particular area.
Perhaps, but Louis appears to be able to teach repair techniques to a wide variety of ordinary citizens without any formal electronics training, from primary-school kids to bored grandmothers.  Louis himself has no formal technical education, IIRC.

There have been gifted people throughout history who have excelled in one discipline or another despite a lack of formal education, that doesn't mean anybody can be expected to perform on their level. On the flip side, I've met plenty of people who had loads of formal education yet still weren't very good at doing the things they should know a lot about. Some people just get it, others don't. Education rarely hurts but someone who is passionate can self teach and become quite good at what they do.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 07:12:31 pm by james_s »
 
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