Apple plans on leaving Intel architecture even for their PCs and laptops.

[bd139]

In one recent case, a single resistor was the cause of the problem, Apple quoted $750 for the repair (which was blindly, swap out the main board, toss out the old one). In another case a single crumb of food in the JTAG port caused the entire machine not to even boot. How is this good design?

Crumb in the back of your Fluke 87V will do the same. High Z stuff needs to be kept clean.

[Marco]

Looked for some benchmarks and found these Geekbench scores

There are some "small" differences between Geekbench microbenchmarks and more holistic benchmarks such as Tabletmark.

[Halcyon]

In one recent case, a single resistor was the cause of the problem, Apple quoted $750 for the repair (which was blindly, swap out the main board, toss out the old one). In another case a single crumb of food in the JTAG port caused the entire machine not to even boot. How is this good design?

Crumb in the back of your Fluke 87V will do the same. High Z stuff needs to be kept clean.

Understood. However Fluke 87V vs. a Macbook... Kind of a different league of product. I'm generalising here but I suspect that most people using a Macbook to watch "the Youtubes" wouldn't know what a Fluke was or how they are used.

An analogy I like to use: Apple products are for those who like drawing with crayons. Simple and easy to use (when they work) but that's about it.

[Cerebus]

In one recent case, a single resistor was the cause of the problem, Apple quoted $750 for the repair (which was blindly, swap out the main board, toss out the old one).

Name any one example of a manufacturer of consumer electronics that does component level repair of their products. They all do board level swaps. It's unfair to single Apple out for this criticism.

[PartialDischarge]

Apple products are for those who like drawing with crayons. Simple and easy to use (when they work) but that's about it.

Seriously Halcyon, we got the point long time ago that Apple is the root of evil, stupidity and awry engineering in the world, but please stop embarrassing yourself

[Nusa]

In one recent case, a single resistor was the cause of the problem, Apple quoted $750 for the repair (which was blindly, swap out the main board, toss out the old one).

Name any one example of a manufacturer of consumer electronics that does component level repair of their products. They all do board level swaps. It's unfair to single Apple out for this criticism.

And to be fair this is an efficient way to do warranty service. Many of them, including Apple, THEN do component level repair at a central location on boards deemed easy to repair...creating working boards for future swaps. Non-warranty service is where such a system no longer works well for customers, fee-wise, and gives third-party repair services an opportunity to make a few bucks.

[jazz]

There are some "small" differences between Geekbench microbenchmarks and more holistic benchmarks such as Tabletmark.

True, definitely a different picture there, and I'll admit that i didn't search too hard for different kinds of benchmarks. Even the CPU scores of the other benchmarks in your link look very different. I guess I was hoping for Geekbench to allow for a mostly CPU-centered comparison, to see how good their ARM cores are in relation to Intel CPUs, but now I feel like I don't know anything more than I did before.

[Horusaem]

Hmmm
It makes sense , swap from the expensive CPU to a Cheaper CPU but keep the price as it was
And to avoid Intel vs Meme You know who war I`ll enD here

[glarsson]

Makes sense to switch from a cpu manufacturer that is constantly late with new features and performance, to their own cpu where they controls the time plan and features.

[AlfBaz]

Makes sense to switch from a cpu manufacturer where everybody can get the data sheet and see the features and instruction set, to their own cpu where they control the back doors into your personal data that nobody will ever find.

Data mining is a veritable goldmine. Why then, use the same pick and shovel everyone else is using

My tinfoil hat contribution for the day 

[AlfBaz]

Seriously Halcyon...

To be honest, I find it refreshing to see there are people who refuse to drink the Koolaid

My tinfoil hat contribution for the day 

Maybe not

[bd139]

Seriously Halcyon...

To be honest, I find it refreshing to see there are people who refuse to drink the Koolaid

You realise some of us actually run companies off the kit and have hundreds of devices and are far more experienced than the cock wagglers.

In one recent case, a single resistor was the cause of the problem, Apple quoted $750 for the repair (which was blindly, swap out the main board, toss out the old one). In another case a single crumb of food in the JTAG port caused the entire machine not to even boot. How is this good design?

Crumb in the back of your Fluke 87V will do the same. High Z stuff needs to be kept clean.

Understood. However Fluke 87V vs. a Macbook... Kind of a different league of product. I'm generalising here but I suspect that most people using a Macbook to watch "the Youtubes" wouldn't know what a Fluke was or how they are used.

An analogy I like to use: Apple products are for those who like drawing with crayons. Simple and easy to use (when they work) but that's about it.

Yep. And when we're not paining with the crayons, we're being part of the security community, computer scientists, Google employees, hardware engineers and finance sector etc.

It's just a Unix machine ffs.

 

[rsjsouza]

My experience with ARM embedded Linux systems goes a while back and I can confirm what others have said: ARM has been focusing for years in the power efficiency region of the spectrum and only somewhat recently (ARMv8-A 64-bit) started implementing some of the long existing features of its Intel brethren such as out of order execution, superscalar pipeline and branch prediction, which can be power hungry. Although some seem to scale well (low 2GHz for quad core and hi 2GHz for dual core), I couldn't yet see a physical device implementation of these cores exclusively for high end computing with advanced memory controllers (anything other than LPDDR3/4), larger than 64-bit memory buses and gobs of L3 cache.

The road is long but not impossible. However, at this time Intel and AMD still have many years (decades?) ahead in expertise.

[AlfBaz]

You realise some of us actually run companies off the kit and have hundreds of devices and are far more experienced than the cock wagglers.

Must be something of a cultural divide between poms and ausies, because bragging about running companies and having hundreds if things is, in Oz at least, the very definition of flopping it out and swinging it round

[Mr. Scram]

Must be something of a cultural divide between poms and ausies, because bragging about running companies and having hundreds if things is, in Oz at least, the very definition of flopping it out and swinging it round

The difference is being full of hot air or having a lot of useful and relevant experience. Who knows about the practical useability and reliability of a product? Someone with experience with a large sample group. The internet is full of people who huff and puff and base themselves on how loudly their cat purrs and how much traffic there was this morning.

[edy]

I'm going through that exact mindset at the moment with Microsoft Windows. I refuse to use anything beyond Windows 7 because quite frankly, it's utter rubbish. In the coming years, I'm converting my entire workflow and everything I do from Windows to Linux and it's not easy.

It's not easy, you are right. I did this about 1.5 years ago and managed to completely transition to Ubuntu with all my machines and have never looked back. I say I can do 99% of what I need on Linux, using a lot of very good free apps. LibreOffice is a great MS Office replacement, and there are lots of desktop publishing and photo apps (Krita, Scribus, GIMP, Pinta to name a few), tons of audio/video editing apps (SoundForge, KDenLive, HandBrake, etc), programming stuff, even some "must have" Windows programs will run under WINE directly.... but just for kicks I also installed VirtualBox to run WinXP Mode, Windows 10, Mac OS High Sierra and Android for PC... so apps think they are running on the native OS directly (virtualized) and work perfectly if WINE can't handle them.



Regarding Apple, they don't need to abandon Intel to make their machines more difficult to upgrade/emulate/copy/secure. It's not like there is a huge number of Hackintoshes around or people dual-booting Windows on their Intel Mac. It must be that they can churn out more profit spinning their own chip, as they do with the iPhone/iPad line. They may see these all "converging" in the future as the power in phones/tablets/PC's increases. Also, Apple only makes a small profit from their PC business... most of their profit is from iPhone and iPad sales. Just look here:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/382260/segments-share-revenue-of-apple/

If anything, their PC business as a percentage of their overall profit is small and diminishing. This cannot be to "lock in" more people, that's already happened a long time ago, or to punish Intel (thinking they are a major competitor - given Samsung makes a lot of the screens for Apple also). I think Apple has some proprietary features they want to integrate and perhaps converge through their entire product line at the chip level for maximum performance and they feel it would be best to spin their own chips just like they do for the iPad and iPhone, and perhaps shave a few dollars off the BOM too (although I can't see this small gain in profit being a reason).

Oh yeah... and here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-02/apple-is-said-to-plan-move-from-intel-to-own-mac-chips-from-2020

... and I quote ....

Apple working on software platform to merge iPad, Mac apps

The initiative, code named Kalamata, is still in the early developmental stages, but comes as part of a larger strategy to make all of Apple’s devices -- including Macs, iPhones, and iPads -- work more similarly and seamlessly together, said the people, who asked not to be identified discussing private information. The project, which executives have approved, will likely result in a multi-step transition.
.
.
.
As part of the larger initiative to make Macs work more like iPhones, Apple is working on a new software platform, internally dubbed Marzipan, for release as early as this year that would allow users to run iPhone and iPad apps on Macs, Bloomberg News reported last year.

[Halcyon]

Apple products are for those who like drawing with crayons. Simple and easy to use (when they work) but that's about it.

Seriously Halcyon, we got the point long time ago that Apple is the root of evil, stupidity and awry engineering in the world, but please stop embarrassing yourself

Touched a nerve did I? I was simply expanding on some of the comments in this thread. You don't have to agree with them (or even read them). I'm not at all embarrassed and stand by my comments. Nothing I've said here are things I haven't said before and if/when Apple change their attitude back to the way it used to be, I'll continue to think the way I do. Also, the things I've pointed out here are things I hear time and time again from users, so it's not just me.

I get that humour doesn't easily translate from text back into real-life, so don't take my tongue-in-cheek comments literally.

It seems those that take a critical view on Apple (or any other manufacturer) are labelled as "Apple bashing" or a "hater", "troll" etc... once the counter-arguments have run out. I've used PCs/Microsoft products since I was a child. I hate what Microsoft are doing to Windows, but I'll gladly throw my hand up and say it in a room full of professionals like myself. I have no shame in admitting that the Operating System I've grown up with, learned inside-out, back-to-front is now a steaming pile of crap.

[Bassman59]

An analogy I like to use: Apple products are for those who like drawing with crayons. Simple and easy to use (when they work) but that's about it.

Except that your analogy is demonstrably false, and also reveals more about you than about those who buy Apple's products.

[Bassman59]

Yep. And when we're not paining with the crayons, we're being part of the security community, computer scientists, Google employees, hardware engineers and finance sector etc.

It's just a Unix machine ffs.

It's a Unix machine which has had a consistent user interface going back decades, unlike Linux, which has so many GUI options it's impossible to keep up.

[Mr. Scram]

It's not easy, you are right. I did this about 1.5 years ago and managed to completely transition to Ubuntu with all my machines and have never looked back. I say I can do 99% of what I need on Linux, using a lot of very good free apps. LibreOffice is a great MS Office replacement, and there are lots of desktop publishing and photo apps (Krita, Scribus, GIMP, Pinta to name a few), tons of audio/video editing apps (SoundForge, KDenLive, HandBrake, etc), programming stuff, even some "must have" Windows programs will run under WINE directly.... but just for kicks I also installed VirtualBox to run WinXP Mode, Windows 10, Mac OS High Sierra and Android for PC... so apps think they are running on the native OS directly (virtualized) and work perfectly if WINE can't handle them.



Regarding Apple, they don't need to abandon Intel to make their machines more difficult to upgrade/emulate/copy/secure. It's not like there is a huge number of Hackintoshes around or people dual-booting Windows on their Intel Mac. It must be that they can churn out more profit spinning their own chip, as they do with the iPhone/iPad line. They may see these all "converging" in the future as the power in phones/tablets/PC's increases. Also, Apple only makes a small profit from their PC business... most of their profit is from iPhone and iPad sales. Just look here:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/382260/segments-share-revenue-of-apple/

If anything, their PC business as a percentage of their overall profit is small and diminishing. This cannot be to "lock in" more people, that's already happened a long time ago, or to punish Intel (thinking they are a major competitor - given Samsung makes a lot of the screens for Apple also). I think Apple has some proprietary features they want to integrate and perhaps converge through their entire product line at the chip level for maximum performance and they feel it would be best to spin their own chips just like they do for the iPad and iPhone, and perhaps shave a few dollars off the BOM too (although I can't see this small gain in profit being a reason).

Oh yeah... and here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-02/apple-is-said-to-plan-move-from-intel-to-own-mac-chips-from-2020

... and I quote ....

Apple working on software platform to merge iPad, Mac apps

The initiative, code named Kalamata, is still in the early developmental stages, but comes as part of a larger strategy to make all of Apple’s devices -- including Macs, iPhones, and iPads -- work more similarly and seamlessly together, said the people, who asked not to be identified discussing private information. The project, which executives have approved, will likely result in a multi-step transition.
.
.
.
As part of the larger initiative to make Macs work more like iPhones, Apple is working on a new software platform, internally dubbed Marzipan, for release as early as this year that would allow users to run iPhone and iPad apps on Macs, Bloomberg News reported last year.

It looks like Apple and Microsoft are basically trying to do the same thing. Microsoft is trying to unify traditional desktop with mobile computing by making the desktop mobile compatible, while Apple is trying to the same by making the desktop more mobile compatible. Both make sense, looking at where the companies come from. Microsoft is the alpha and omega on the desktop and has a feeble or even non-existent grip on the mobile market, and expands from there. Meanwhile, Apple's profits have consistently shifted from desktop to mobile devices, with their interest desktop devices slowly fading away. It only makes sense to absorb the suffering platform into the successful one.

Considering Microsoft has a partnership with Qualcomm and is already releasing samples to the press, I'd say they have a decent head start. If these two players decide this is going to be the next thing it's quite likely to happen. Now if only they would the cloud thing go and focus on this.

[Marco]

I wonder what Intel will make of all this though. If both Microsoft and Apple are treacherous partners, isn't it about time they find some decent OS competition to sell their processors to consumers?

I like Linux and all, I'm running it now, but other than as a component in Chromebooks I'd not dare to recommend it to any of the normies I know ... and with the Facebook drama it's only a matter of time before Google faces backlash too. A version of Ubuntu with the same level of polish and QA as Chromebooks and an appstore with quality control and modern sandboxing technology would be nice. Intel might want to spend some money and make it a reality.

[Brumby]

I have a very limited exposure to Apple products - but that experience was not comfortable.

At one stage I was looking to do some website development and I thought "What mobile platform should I consider?"  At the time, Apple seemed prominent, so when I came up for a new phone, I went with an iPhone 4.  It was the cheapest option on a plan with Optus at the time.

While I found the device functional, what I did NOT like was having to install iTunes just to activate the bloody thing.  That piece of software just stepped in and took control of a whole series of functionality that I simply did not need and did not want.  Took me a while to tame it and work around it - but that was something I should not have had to deal with.

It was a grand day when I moved back to an Android device.  I just fitted the SIM card and turned it on.


The Apple tech may have been OK - but I object to being wrapped up in a straight jacket and led around by the nose.

/rant

[David Hess]

An ARM core with performance comparable to x86 will not be power competitive with existing lower power ARM cores so a separate design will be required.  Is the MacOS laptop and desktop market large enough to make that economical especially considering that it means excluding high performance x86 software?  This problem is why Apple dropped 68k for PowerPC and then PowerPC for x86.

They way Apple has allowed the Macintosh line of systems to languish over the past few years does not bode well for the economics of designing a high performance ARM core for them.

[Mr. Scram]

I have a very limited exposure to Apple products - but that experience was not comfortable.

At one stage I was looking to do some website development and I thought "What mobile platform should I consider?"  At the time, Apple seemed prominent, so when I came up for a new phone, I went with an iPhone 4.  It was the cheapest option on a plan with Optus at the time.

While I found the device functional, what I did NOT like was having to install iTunes just to activate the bloody thing.  That piece of software just stepped in and took control of a whole series of functionality that I simply did not need and did not want.  Took me a while to tame it and work around it - but that was something I should not have had to deal with.

It was a grand day when I moved back to an Android device.  I just fitted the SIM card and turned it on.


The Apple tech may have been OK - but I object to being wrapped up in a straight jacket and led around by the nose.

/rant

Yes, itunes was horrible for a long time. I don't think that's required any more, though.

[Halcyon]

Except that your analogy is demonstrably false, and also reveals more about you than about those who buy Apple's products.

Indeed it does. I accept the compliment.

The Apple tech may have been OK - but I object to being wrapped up in a straight jacket and led around by the nose.

I think iTunes is still required to perform some basic tasks, like copying files to/from the handset and creating backups.