Apple repair woes - USB port $740

[Howardlong]

So it happened.

I've had a Macbook 12" Retina 2017 laptop, the cyclops version with a single USB-C port for charge/USB/display.

About ten days or so ago, it stopped recognising USB 2.0 devices, including iPhone and old USB thumb drives. USB 3.0 devices are fine, and it still charges.

I had a look on the USB 2.0 D+ and D- lines on the USB-C connector and they appear to be diode clamped to 0.7V max, so when I apply the standard 1.5k pullup to 3.3V D+ or D- for device detection, rather than reaching the expected ~3V, they stubbornly sit at 0.7V.

So I took it to the Apple store to see how they'd deal with it. To cut a long story short, after figuring out that a $125 internal flatflex cable didn't fix it, they want $740 for a new logic board. Now I am not surprised about that, because I didn't expect the cable to be the problem bearing in mind my own diagnostics, and neither did I expect them do a component level repair.

What I did find surprising, and worrying, is that if they did do the logic board repair, I wouldn't be getting the old board back, which contains the soldered in SSD, and, of course, all my data. They do not offer a way to get the logic board back. As far as I could tell, the board goes back to Apple, where they do a component level repair, and they then re-sell it, with my data on it, presumably with a reformat and new OS install for what that's worth.

So I'm going to get it back and find a third party in the UK who'll either (a) replace the board and let me have the old one back or (b) do a component level repair. Any suggestions?

[Brumby]

If you can hop over to New York ... I know a guy.   

[Howardlong]

If you can hop over to New York ... I know a guy.   

*cough* I'm sure you do!

a third party in the UK

[Howardlong]

If I had the schematics and layout, I'd be well up for doing it myself, soldering this stuff certainly isn't a problem for me, although I do draw the line at re-balling BGAs.

[Dave]

Louis runs a repair forum. I'm sure you'd find Brits there that do the same line of work.

[MrMobodies]

I knew it was going to be Louis Rossmann, the right to repair activist but I didn't know about the forum and the schematics there.

That'll show Apple.

[Howardlong]

Louis runs a repair forum.

Indeed he does, for a price.

[Howardlong]

I knew it was going to be Louis Rossmann, the right to repair activist but I didn't know about the forum and the schematics there.

That'll show Apple.

I'm not sure you'll find any schematics there.

[MrMobodies]

I mean't from the videos.

See attachment.
I thought that was the schematic.

Edit:
Oops cannot find videos of schematics for 12inch macbook boards on there.
Sorry about that.

[tooki]

What I did find surprising, and worrying, is that if they did do the logic board repair, I wouldn't be getting the old board back, which contains the soldered in SSD, and, of course, all my data. They do not offer a way to get the logic board back. As far as I could tell, the board goes back to Apple, where they do a component level repair, and they then re-sell it, with my data on it, presumably with a reformat and new OS install for what that's worth.

FWIW, Apple will do a proper wipe. They do not want ANY chance of customer data getting shared. (I expect they do this with special software that erases it at the SSD controller level.)

Another option for you is to enable FileVault encryption now, and if you're really paranoid, duplicate enough files to fill the disk. (You can then delete them.) Make sure your Time Machine backup is updated (indeed, just do these steps: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201065 ), then boot from the recovery partition and quick reformat the disk (no need to fill with zeros or data). This will leave behind only unrecoverable encrypted data for which the decryption key no longer exists.

[bd139]

Three options here:

1. Firstly it's warranty. Go in explicitly and tell them you want to make a claim under CRA 2015. They don't argue but you have to explicitly state the terms you want the repair done under. I've walked away with new gear due to this. Go in a main Apple store for this such as Westfield etc as well. Redneck ones without repair centres are crap. Apple stuff has 6 years warranty under UK law.

2. Charge back the original purchase with your CC company after telling them they refuse to fix it under warranty terms.

3. Moneyclaim the whole purchase price back.

Don't fuck around. That should be a warranty repair!

Edit: Also if you go into Apple Store for a repair, make sure you erase the disk with Disk Utility before you go. Says so on the booking forms usually.

[Howardlong]

I called around three UK operators who said they did component level repairs but I didn't get a very warm feeling with any of them, there were a number of different excuses given. These cyclops Macbooks with the single USB port have a tiny logic board, the board area is not a million miles from a Raspberry Pi, and the parts are crammed on there. It seems nobody likes repairing these, including Louis Rossmann.

I got hold of the schematics for the 2016 version 820-00244 (mine is a 2017 version 820-00687 for which I haven't yet found a schematic). If they are similar I'm pretty sure it's U3100 CD3215A which is USB-C controller, including a mux for top/bottom handling the reversible connector USB 2.0 connections among other things.

I understand that there are different revision of these chips, they are made by TI, possibly a derivative of TPS65986. There are warnings around about using the wrong revision of this part, so I'm reluctant to have a go at this without the right schematics and part.

[tooki]

1. Firstly it's warranty. Go in explicitly and tell them you want to make a claim under CRA 2015. They don't argue but you have to explicitly state the terms you want the repair done under. I've walked away with new gear due to this. Go in a main Apple store for this such as Westfield etc as well. Redneck ones without repair centres are crap. Apple stuff has 6 years warranty under UK law.

FYI, every single Apple Store has a back-of-house repair room (none do component-level, of course). Apple experimented with sales-only mini stores years ago, but those were all replaced with full stores long ago.

Authorized resellers are of course a totally different matter. Some of them are service providers, and some are not.

Edit: Also if you go into Apple Store for a repair, make sure you erase the disk with Disk Utility before you go. Says so on the booking forms usually.

Apple's retail T&C (US, UK) state:

Apple understands that your data may be valuable to you. Data loss during service is always a possibility, and in some cases, data may be unrecoverable, erased, or reformatted during service. For this reason, it is your sole responsibility to back up all existing data, software, and/or programs from your product, and to decide whether to erase any such data from your product, prior to receiving service. Apple is not responsible for loss, recovery, or compromise of data, software or programs, or loss of use of your product or other equipment arising out of the services provided by Apple. You represent that your product does not contain any illegal files or data.

You acknowledge that your device may be sent out by common carrier to be serviced by an external service provider. For this reason, it's recommended that you back up your device and wipe it, prior to submission for service.

(Emphasis mine)

The warranty T&C may vary slightly, but it'll be similar, if not identical.

[Howardlong]

The backing up of data is a given, of course I'd already done that.

My point is around the protection of your data when it leaves you, especially now that the SSD is soldered to the board.

I seriously doubt many people think about this additional data leakage implication once your board is replaced. I'd assumed (incorrectly) that it'd be a simple matter of asking for your old board back so it could be disposed of in line with your own (or your company's) security policy. It's very common for companies to use specialist third parties to do the data destruction work if they don't do it themselves.

You acknowledge that your device may be sent out by common carrier to be serviced by an external service provider. For this reason, it's recommended that you back up your device and wipe it, prior to submission for service.

I seriously doubt many people do this. In addition I can imagine that most service centres would prefer that you didn't if they're to try to diagnose faults! I set up Apple with a new account, although the initial assumption was that I was going to give them my credentials (er, no).

If Apple do do this "repair", I'll be in back in there wiping the drive clean first, and to be fair they have offered me that option. However, whether I can spend another half an hour in a shop where I'm 20+ years older than everyone else remains to be seen!

[Howardlong]

Just to add, for about the same price as the USB port replacement I picked up a 2nd hand Dell XPS 13 with a better display, processor, RAM etc etc. It was cheap because it had a French keyboard. One $35 UK replacement keyboard later, and ~50 screws later with the service manual. All standard cross head screws. I also upgraded the SSD while I was at it. When it comes to repairability, the Dell scores orders of magnitude better than the Apple.

Soldering storage to the motherboard is just a disaster, I was never keen based purely on the lack of upgrade path, but it also adds an additional dimension from a data security perspective.

[tooki]

My point is around the protection of your data when it leaves you, especially now that the SSD is soldered to the board.

I seriously doubt many people think about this additional data leakage implication once your board is replaced. I'd assumed (incorrectly) that it'd be a simple matter of asking for your old board back so it could be disposed of in line with your own (or your company's) security policy. It's very common for companies to use specialist third parties to do the data destruction work if they don't do it themselves.

Logic boards are not scrapped, they're sent back for diagnostics and rework, and become refurbished parts for future repairs. (Some things, like keyboards, are simply recycled.) Apple itself will not sell you a spare part like a logic board, and the prices for authorized service providers are also such that without a swap, the part is made prohibitively expensive.

You acknowledge that your device may be sent out by common carrier to be serviced by an external service provider. For this reason, it's recommended that you back up your device and wipe it, prior to submission for service.

I seriously doubt many people do this.

Having worked at both Apple stores and Apple authorized service providers, I assure you, many people do.

In addition I can imagine that most service centres would prefer that you didn't if they're to try to diagnose faults! I set up Apple with a new account, although the initial assumption was that I was going to give them my credentials (er, no).

People vary wildly in their sensitivity to privacy. Most are totally OK with giving their password, others aren't, in which case alternatives are found. Whether a system password is needed depends on the fault. For many, there's no need, as the techs can just boot from USB or whatever. (And usually that's what you'd do anyway, since it makes diagnosis easier.) Only for account-specific software weirdness is access to a specific account necessary.

If Apple do do this "repair", I'll be in back in there wiping the drive clean first, and to be fair they have offered me that option. However, whether I can spend another half an hour in a shop where I'm 20+ years older than everyone else remains to be seen!

Don't feel like that! Heck, a decade+ ago when I worked at the fruit stand, we had many customers in their 70s (and a few beyond) who came in weekly for classes. We had retiree who worked there, too. So unless you're over a hundred, you're well within the normal range of customers!

[bd139]

Just remember if you’re 20 years older than everyone else in there you’re probably the only one that can afford the stuff 

[Howardlong]

Logic boards are not scrapped, they're sent back for diagnostics and rework, and become refurbished parts for future repairs.

Indeed, that is also my understanding, although they're hardly forthcoming about that or the implications.

I seriously doubt many people do this.

Having worked at both Apple stores and Apple authorized service providers, I assure you, many people do.

Hmm...

Most are totally OK with giving their password

So which is it? I said most people don't wipe the drive, you apparently contradicted that by saying said many do, then said most people are OK with giving their password. ;-) Seriously though, I agree with you, people do have widely different ways of dealing with data security.

My point is that I will be even less likely to consider buying a machine with soldered in storage than I was previously. Add to that that the single point of failure port, it doesn't bode well.

I originally bought that Mac because of its form factor: a proper laptop, very light weight, and handy for the rare occasions I need OS X for development: I run most of the Macs here natively in Windows, but the half dozen or so others I have here all have replaceable storage. Microsoft's Surface range are an option, and there are three here, but I really don't like the flip stand on the light weight versions, they're difficult to use on your lap which is a frequent use case for me when travelling. So far this Dell 2-in-1 XPS 13 seems to be a surprisingly good compromise with the added benefit of content consumption mode.

[Howardlong]

Just remember if you’re 20 years older than everyone else in there you’re probably the only one that can afford the stuff 

It was pretty interesting seeing the devices coming in, the vast majority were six or seven year old Macbooks. This is a recent problem for manufacturers, there isn't quite the need for a hardware refresh every two or three years as there once was.

I still regularly use one of the original Macbook Pro retinas from summer 2012, I bought it fully loaded, 750GB SSD, 16GB RAM and an i7-3820QM, and have upgraded the SSD twice, now at 2TB. For development purposes it's been superb, and it's been 100% reliable (touch wood!). Only in the past year have there been significant benefits in the latest version in particular a 32GB RAM option and 4TB SSD, at a horrendous price, and of course, soldered in, with no after market upgrade paths.

Unless you're tied to OS X or do IOS development, Apple just isn't a compelling option anymore.

[nick_d]

Firstly, much as I agree with right-to-repair, realistically only the manufacturer can do the repair economically. I learned this to my cost when I bought a AUD1500 Bosch dishwasher that had an annoying intermittent fault, it wasn't a show stopper so I accidentally let the warranty run out, after that the fault got worse and the machine couldn't be used. I stubbornly persisted past the point of madness in trying to diagnose and fix this machine. Bought new pumps, sensors, logic board even... no progress. I think it was actually a design flaw but anyway. They kept offering to repair it under their own terms at a high price and I kept saying no. I was very disgruntled with the entire experience.

Since the repair will always be a similar price to buying a new machine, you only really have two options (1) get the extended warranty and (2) get the cheapest machine you can. Much as it was dumb of me to buy this AUD1500 name brand Bosch lemon when an AUD750 local bramd machine would have been just as functional, it was dumb of you to buy the Apple (another lesson I learned after dropping AUD4k or so on my first and only Apple system, a Powerbook G4 that had many issues).

Always get the extended warranty except on cheap throwaway items -- my next laptop will be an AUD350 Celeron 3150 or similar as I don't need compute.

cheers, Nick

[bd139]

Just remember if you’re 20 years older than everyone else in there you’re probably the only one that can afford the stuff 

It was pretty interesting seeing the devices coming in, the vast majority were six or seven year old Macbooks. This is a recent problem for manufacturers, there isn't quite the need for a hardware refresh every two or three years as there once was.

I still regularly use one of the original Macbook Pro retinas from summer 2012, I bought it fully loaded, 750GB SSD, 16GB RAM and an i7-3820QM, and have upgraded the SSD twice, now at 2TB. For development purposes it's been superb, and it's been 100% reliable (touch wood!). Only in the past year have there been significant benefits in the latest version in particular a 32GB RAM option and 4TB SSD, at a horrendous price, and of course, soldered in, with no after market upgrade paths.

Unless you're tied to OS X or do IOS development, Apple just isn't a compelling option anymore.

Totally agree.

As stated in another thread, I was using a fully stacked 2013 15" rMBP until recently, which was on its last legs because it was physically worn out. It was mostly used as a terminal for AWS, so I decided to go ultimate portable and buy a new stacked 13" 2018 MBA. That went back within 3 weeks because the keyboard started to hose itself (duplicate keypresses making it unusable). They couldn't even get that keyboard right on the second try.

Now using an extensively modified Lenovo T440/450 hybrid frankenpad that cost 1/4 of the capital of the MBA and is the same spec (FHD IPS screen is slightly worse than the retina ones but good enough)

I'll probably stick with iOS on my phone until the end of time though. No reason to use anything else (yet).

[Psi]

Firstly, much as I agree with right-to-repair, realistically only the manufacturer can do the repair economically.

They could do it economically, but they wont unless forced to by laws or ethics. Doing it economically is just not cost effective for them.
To little profit vs the percentage chance the person will just buy a new one.

3rd party repair removes that last point.

For Apple to do a repair we would consider economical they would actually lose money.

The bigger a company is the more wastage man hours there are per worker, and the more ongoing expenses to be paid.
For a huge international company to repair a product and break even on their costs incurred they would have to charge significantly more than a small 10 person business. Who in turn must charge more than a single person working from home.

That's one of the reasons i think easy home manufacturing technology is going to dethrone big companies in the future.
And the reason we are starting to see more laws pushed through that generate lots of red tape to prevent/discourage small home business. Things like expensive certification required to sell products.

[Howardlong]

I'll probably stick with iOS on my phone until the end of time though. No reason to use anything else (yet).

I still find myself fighting IOS in particular getting files in and out of it.

Three iPhone 6 Plus my and the missus have had all suffered touch IC disease. iPhone 6s Plus a far better option in that respect, and keeps a 3.5mm jack.

A couple of months ago I made the mistake of "upgrading" from an iPhone 6s Plus to an Xs Max. It's the same physical size as the iPhone 6s Plus. Lacking the home button and fingerprint recognition in lieu of gestures and face recognition is very much a retrograde step. The face ID  is very unreliable, and the new gestures are prone to fail. When using ApplePay, you need to double press the power button and hope that face ID works, which it often doesn't so you need to supply your passcode. How is this progress?

True, the 4k60p video looks gorgeous, but getting the video files off the device in native h.265 format without the OS doing a lengthy transcoding first needs a third party solution as far as I can tell.

[bd139]

The trick with iOS is to use GoodReader for files and VLC for video. I don't transcode the videos off it. Just archive them as they are. No idea what format.

I had a smaller 6s. No problems with that. There was a very slightly light patch on the display which I got swapped out at xmas. They gave me a new handset after they failed to fix it. So that went to my eldest. SWMBO also has a 6s which is going strong.

Currently using an XR. Face ID works all the time for me, sunglasses on or off. The only problem with Apple Pay is that I've had problems with TFL entry gates on tube stations sometimes resulting in incomplete journeys. Works everywhere else including busses fine. Everything else works perfectly. Camera on it is a big step up from the 6s - works very well in low light.

Lack of 3.5mm jack turned out not to be a problem as the thing lasts forever on battery. I can get 2-3 days out of it (!)

[Howardlong]

FWIW, Apple will do a proper wipe. They do not want ANY chance of customer data getting shared. (I expect they do this with special software that erases it at the SSD controller level.)

Another option for you is to enable FileVault encryption now, and if you're really paranoid, duplicate enough files to fill the disk. (You can then delete them.) Make sure your Time Machine backup is updated (indeed, just do these steps: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201065 ), then boot from the recovery partition and quick reformat the disk (no need to fill with zeros or data). This will leave behind only unrecoverable encrypted data for which the decryption key no longer exists.

There is a secure erase option in the disk utility to overwrite partitions... but, of course, Apple removed it for SSDs.