Author Topic: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!  (Read 11196 times)

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Offline tooki

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2018, 09:50:08 pm »
Office for Mac uses the Ribbon, too. (But it also retains the menu bar!! Kinda the beat of both worlds.) As a UX designer I’ve had heated arguments with colleagues about the Ribbon. I actually like it, and the UX research and testing behind it is really, really solid. (And the Ribbon guidelines — which are mandatory for any software developer who wishes to use it — are really well designed. They reduce the amount of unspecified behavior that has plagued windows software due to there being unlimited room for interpretation.)  I think that people that hate it mostly have it simply for being different from what they’re used to.


After being forced to use it for years, I still loathe the ribbon. If they simply offered the ability to turn it off and enable the traditional menu that would end virtually all of the controversy.
Of course it would. But it would also undo all the work that went into the Ribbon, and restore the problem that led to the Ribbon’s inception to begin with: the menus were overloaded! One of the biggest things Microsoft realized in customer feedback up through Office 2000-2003 was that most feature requests were for features they already had! In other words, the features were there but people couldn’t find them. The dynamic menus in Office 2000 (or was it 97? I forget.) proved to make things worse, not better. They realized that the standard menus just did not work for applications with the scope of Office, so they sought a better solution. And while it’s frustrating if you already memorized where things were before, the whole point of the Ribbon is that it provides a way to hold a LOT of controls in a more structured way, with more tangibly graphical elements to make it easier to do what you want. Remember, it’s not just about existing power users! It’s more about the 95% of users who aren’t power users, and who were having ongoing trouble finding things. Now they have less trouble.

If they were to try and return to menus, they’d be right back where they started. (FWIW, the menus in the Mac version basically remain unchanged from the pre-Ribbon version. Any new features are being added to the Ribbon only.)
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2018, 10:55:39 pm »
How would they be right back where they started? The ribbon is still there, it could even be on by default, but those of us for whom the old style menus work better would still have the option of using them instead. They seem hell bent on *forcing* users to adapt to them, rather than the sensible approach of adapting to the needs of the users.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2018, 10:59:50 pm »
Since other OSes really only use the second mouse button for contextual menus (if we ignore games and a few 3D design apps), I assume that contextual menus are really what you’re talking about. Mac OS has supported those since Mac OS 8, from 1997. They were triggered by a control-click, but you could just configure multibutton mouse software to issue a control-click from the right mouse button. In Mac OS X (initial non-beta release in 2001) has always opened contextual menus by default with a right click. All Apple mice since 2005 and all trackpads since 2008 have supported right clicking as well, though many people don’t realize this.

So in a nutshell, you have to be going back a long time to find a Mac without context menu support!!

Most of my Mac use has been on 68k and some early PPC systems running System 8 and earlier so I suppose that's going back a long way, but it was the first ~20 years of existence of the Mac where it had only a single button mouse. It wasn't until the USB Macs appeared that a multi-button mouse was even an option. 2005 is what I'd consider to be relatively recent, I only replaced the PC I built in 2005 with a new one I built about 2 years ago.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2018, 11:30:43 pm »
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How does it differentiate the apps? One app is always the foreground app

That's not what I meant. What I was after was how does the user know from the menu which app is the one with focus? Does the menu, for instance, carry the name of the app? If it's a 'standard' app with common menu, wouldn't they all look the same, so which of the several open (non-overlayed) windows would the user know it applied to?

As you can tell, I am not a Mac user. I'd like to give it a try but I can't afford one just to mess about with (and probably couldn't afford to get locked in the garden if I did like it).
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2018, 11:39:54 pm »
Well if you really wanted to try, you can run OSX in a virtual machine, or install it on certain PC hardware (Hackintosh), or if you did decide to buy a Mac and then didn't like it, you can run Windows on one bare metal just like any other PC.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2018, 11:57:20 pm »
Where would one acquire OSX? I tried following some links but wound up in a series of self-referencing zipped text files.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2018, 12:00:03 am »
I bought an original disc off ebay for a few bucks, it was a version or two behind the most current but fine for my purposes. I would guess various versions are floating around on torrent sites too but I haven't looked.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2018, 12:03:46 am »
How would they be right back where they started? The ribbon is still there, it could even be on by default, but those of us for whom the old style menus work better would still have the option of using them instead. They seem hell bent on *forcing* users to adapt to them, rather than the sensible approach of adapting to the needs of the users.
Right back where they started in having to find where to add new features to the already-bursting-at-the-seams menus.

Since other OSes really only use the second mouse button for contextual menus (if we ignore games and a few 3D design apps), I assume that contextual menus are really what you’re talking about. Mac OS has supported those since Mac OS 8, from 1997. They were triggered by a control-click, but you could just configure multibutton mouse software to issue a control-click from the right mouse button. In Mac OS X (initial non-beta release in 2001) has always opened contextual menus by default with a right click. All Apple mice since 2005 and all trackpads since 2008 have supported right clicking as well, though many people don’t realize this.

So in a nutshell, you have to be going back a long time to find a Mac without context menu support!!

Most of my Mac use has been on 68k and some early PPC systems running System 8 and earlier so I suppose that's going back a long way, but it was the first ~20 years of existence of the Mac where it had only a single button mouse. It wasn't until the USB Macs appeared that a multi-button mouse was even an option. 2005 is what I'd consider to be relatively recent, I only replaced the PC I built in 2005 with a new one I built about 2 years ago.
Well let's be fair — the Mac had 13 years (1984-1997) without context menu support, 21 years (1997-present) with context menu support in the software (17 thereof truly natively), and 13 years (2005-present) with two-button mice supplied standard.

Long before Apple provided support for context menus, third parties did (e.g. the wonderful FinderPop), and multibutton mice from third party vendors existed from very early on. (I got a 4-button Kensington mouse around 1995, but multibutton mice and trackballs existed for Mac long before that. This was, of course, an ADB mouse.)
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2018, 12:11:32 am »
Quote
How does it differentiate the apps? One app is always the foreground app

That's not what I meant. What I was after was how does the user know from the menu which app is the one with focus? Does the menu, for instance, carry the name of the app? If it's a 'standard' app with common menu, wouldn't they all look the same, so which of the several open (non-overlayed) windows would the user know it applied to?

As you can tell, I am not a Mac user. I'd like to give it a try but I can't afford one just to mess about with (and probably couldn't afford to get locked in the garden if I did like it).
Yes, the app name appears prominently — and in fact it's the menu containing standard commands to control the app (and not to documents, whose commands begin in the File menu). I've attached screenshots of what it looks like in a few apps. All the stuff on the right, as icons, is system-wide menus, of which I have far too many installed! :P

(The classic Mac OS only showed the app's 16px icon in the corner, which indeed could occasionally lead to confusion. It didn't help that, like in Windows to this day, the File menu contains both commands pertaining to files, like New, Open, and Print, as well as application-wide commands like Quit. Separating it into the application menu, with things like About, Preferences, and Quit, made a TON of sense!)
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2018, 12:13:21 am »
Right back where they started in having to find where to add new features to the already-bursting-at-the-seams menus.

But I don't need any more features, what compelling features have been added to spreadsheets and word processors in the last 20 years? I'm not bothered by clutter in the menus, in fact I absolutely hate "personalized" menus that try to guess what I want and hide everything else unless I click again. The menus are far higher density than the stupid ribbon which is a cluttered mess that takes up a huge chunk of precious vertical screen space.

I just fired up my trusty copy of MS Word 2003 and the longest menus stretch only about 1/3 of the way down the screen when active, they could easily double the number of items in each menu without running out of space and it would still be much quicker for me to find what I'm looking for. Instead there is a huge measure of arrogance them deciding what is best for the user instead of acknowledging that not everyone's mind works the same. They could have kept offering the traditional menus for the millions of users who strongly prefer them, but instead forced us to look at alternatives like OpenOffice if we are not fortunate enough to have a copy of Office 2003.

I HATE the ribbon, I've had more than a decade to "get used to it" and it still takes me twice as long to find anything and just generally frustrates me. It is vastly inferior for the way my mind works and to insist otherwise is pure arrogance.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2018, 12:51:18 am »
Right back where they started in having to find where to add new features to the already-bursting-at-the-seams menus.

But I don't need any more features, what compelling features have been added to spreadsheets and word processors in the last 20 years?
Actually, try using Office 97 and then come back to comment. You'll find tons of little things missing — it feels like death by 1000 paper cuts.

And regardless, just because you don't feel you need any new features doesn't mean that nobody does! Harsh truth, man: Microsoft isn't designing Office for you. It's designing it for everyone, and that means some compromises. One could argue (quite convincingly, frankly) that trying to be everything to everyone is a bad thing, but let's face it, the overwhelming majority of document creation is done in Microsoft Office (and much of the balance is done in open-source apps that are shitty clones of MS Office). As such, it has to be usable by novices (who make up a huge percentage of the user base), yet also contain tons of very niche features for power users and business workflows.

In doing the research for Office 2007, MS collected millions upon millions of user data reports ("telemetry") from Office 2003 users who participated in the telemetry program, which gave them info on which features were used, in what order, and how (menu, toolbar, etc.). They learned tons of useful stuff from that, and one interesting nugget is that just as they expected, about 20% of features got used 80% of the time — but that contrary to their expectations, among the remaining 80% of features that get used 20% of the time, there were no clear "winners". (They'd hoped to jettison rarely used features, but nothing stood out as particularly unused.) The upshot is that even the features that any given user thinks are useless fluff are in fact regularly used, when all users are taken as a whole.

I'm not bothered by clutter in the menus
But most users are. They have trouble finding what they need.

in fact I absolutely hate "personalized" menus that try to guess what I want and hide everything else unless I click again.
Everyone hated the personalized "smart" menus, which is why they only stuck around for one or two versions of Office.

The menus are far higher density than the stupid ribbon which is a cluttered mess that takes up a huge chunk of precious vertical screen space.
It takes up less space than the menu bar and the toolbars that most users kept around. Remember that you can double-click the Ribbon tabs to collapse it, at which point it's basically a menu bar. In that state, it uses no more space than the traditional window title bar and menu bar together.

I just fired up my trusty copy of MS Word 2003 and the longest menus stretch only about 1/3 of the way down the screen when active,
Average screen sizes have grown a lot since 2003. Back then, less than half of users had 1024x768 or higher, meaning that over half were on 800x600 or 640x480!! So you'd very easily be running into long menus that had to scroll, and many users have trouble with that.

they could easily double the number of items in each menu without running out of space
But ultimately, it's not about space, it's about being able to find things. Real users were consistently having trouble finding things. And despite individual reports like yours, the user research showed that on average, users have less trouble finding things in the Ribbon. To a large extent, this has nothing to do with whether the commands are housed in menus or toolbars (the Ribbon being, in essence, a glorified toolbar), but rather how the commands are grouped.

In Office, the menu commands had accreted over 20 years, and their groupings were often really haphazard. So when they did develop the Ribbon, it was to a large extent merely about re-grouping commands into better groupings. In all likelihood, it is this change, and not the visual presentation, that bothers you more. (The groupings in the Ribbon are designed for efficiency in command chains, that is, putting commands that are frequently used in sequence onto the same tabs.)

and it would still be much quicker for me to find what I'm looking for. Instead there is a huge measure of arrogance them deciding what is best for the user instead of acknowledging that not everyone's mind works the same.
It's not arrogance when it's founded in really solid user research. I'm not even a fan of MS (I'm a Mac guy!), but as a UX professional, there is nothing to fault in MS's methodology in the Ribbon.

Is it not arrogant of you to expect that MS bow to your needs, even in light of evidence that most users benefit from the newer system?

They could have kept offering the traditional menus for the millions of users who strongly prefer them
Again, the menus had long ceased being effective. But regardless, developing two user interfaces in parallel is, well, dumb. That's already what menus+toolbars were, and part of the goal of the Ribbon was to unify, rather than to further replicate.

but instead forced us to look at alternatives like OpenOffice if we are not fortunate enough to have a copy of Office 2003.

I HATE the ribbon
I hadn't noticed! :P

I've had more than a decade to "get used to it" and it still takes me twice as long to find anything and just generally frustrates me.
You aren't alone in feeling like this. I've met a few (very few, but non-zero) who feel this strongly about it. However, the goal of the Ribbon wasn't to make it better for you specifically, but to make it better for most users, and it succeeded at that.

It is vastly inferior for the way my mind works and to insist otherwise is pure arrogance.
It would be arrogant for anyone to suggest how your mind needs to work — and nobody has in any way.

All you need to understand is that it's not a custom product for you, it's a mass-market product that has to work well for most people.
 

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2018, 01:15:26 am »
Mac os isn't for me, but plenty of people seem to like it.
if it runs the software you want to run then it's a viable OS choice I suppose.

One thing though - as well as being specifically not licensed for use in a VM, it seems like it's deliberately hobbled to NOT WORK on a VM. That is, Apple seems to expend some energy writing their software to fail in a virtualbox VM. So to even have a n OSX machine running in virtualbox you end up with constant issues with update compatibility and general system robustness and stability.. so really, you are not going to have the same experience as if you run it on apple hardware.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2018, 01:22:59 am »
Mac os isn't for me, but plenty of people seem to like it.
if it runs the software you want to run then it's a viable OS choice I suppose.
That's one of the things I LOVE about Mac OS X: it has all the key commercial software (MS Office, Adobe, etc.) and the entire world of open source software from the UNIX/Linux world. And the quality of Mac software tends to be really good. (In contrast, on Windows, there are invariably 100 different programs to do the same thing, but only 1 or 2 of those are any good. So the actual number of good apps for a given task on Mac vs. Windows tends to be really similar.) Open source is hit or miss, but it fills a lot of gaps!

One thing though - as well as being specifically not licensed for use in a VM, it seems like it's deliberately hobbled to NOT WORK on a VM. That is, Apple seems to expend some energy writing their software to fail in a virtualbox VM. So to even have a n OSX machine running in virtualbox you end up with constant issues with update compatibility and general system robustness and stability.. so really, you are not going to have the same experience as if you run it on apple hardware.
Weeeeellll… not exactly. As of 10.7 (i.e. around 6 years ago), the EULA does allow Mac OS X to run inside VMs, and commercial VMs, like VMware, do support it, with one caveat: only when running on a Mac as a host. (That's what the EULA allows for, and the commercial VM vendors enforce it.)

If it's failing in VirtualBox, it's probably because VirtualBox is crap. I can't tell you how much trouble I've had with customers using VirtualBox for a Windows or Linux VM, in stark contrast to VMware or Parallels, both of which work extremely well. You get what you pay for…
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 01:27:17 am by tooki »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2018, 01:32:10 am »
Dude, I'm not going to quote that huge wall of text, but arrogance, arrogance, arrogance. You make all kinds of claims, but cite no sources. Studies I read showed users being sharply divided between preference of ribbon vs traditional menus, yet you act as though there is some massive overwhelming unequivocal preference for ribbons. You talk as though I'm some kind of crazy one-off anomaly demanding a custom product just for me, when in fact there is enough backlash against the ribbon to have spawned quite popular aftermarket addons to support sensible menus. Office 97? Who said anything about Office 97 until you brought it up? That's called a straw man argument. What new features do you use that aren't in Office 2003? Please list the features that are in the ribbon that would not fit in the traditional menus because I can't for the life of me find anything that wouldn't be trivial to put there.

Compromises, yes, "You will take the ribbon and you will like it because WE said so!" Yeah, that sounds like a compromise to me. Compromise would be continuing to include the standard menu as an option, like they did on the Mac version. They already had to do the work to find places for all these new features so why couldn't they compromise and continue to provide the original option for the ~40-50% of users who prefer it? If it is SOOOOOOOOO hard to do this then how did the aftermarket menu addon manage this impossible task? If the ribbon is so vastly superior then why do they have to FORCE it on users rather than offering a choice? I mean yeah, it's SO hugely impossible to pack anything in a sensible menu that an aftermarket program came out within a short time to do just that.

The level of arrogance is astounding.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2018, 01:32:56 am »
Dude, I'm not going to quote that huge wall of text, but arrogance, arrogance, arrogance. Apple themselves would be hard pressed to match that level of hubris. You make all kinds of claims, but cite no sources. Studies I read showed users being sharply divided between preference of ribbon vs traditional menus, yet you act as though there is some massive overwhelming unequivocal preference for ribbons. You talk as though I'm some kind of crazy one-off anomaly demanding a custom product just for me, when in fact there is enough backlash against the ribbon to have spawned quite popular aftermarket addons to support sensible menus. Office 97? Who said anything about Office 97 until you brought it up? That's called a straw man argument. What new features do you use that aren't in Office 2003? Please list the features that are in the ribbon that would not fit in the traditional menus because I can't for the life of me find anything that wouldn't be trivial to put there.

Compromises, yes, "You will take the ribbon and you will like it because WE said so!" Yeah, that sounds like a compromise to me. Compromise would be continuing to include the standard menu as an option, like they did on the Mac version. They already had to do the work to find places for all these new features so why couldn't they compromise and continue to provide the original option for the ~40-50% of users who prefer it? If it is SOOOOOOOOO hard to do this then how did the aftermarket menu addon manage this impossible task? If the ribbon is so vastly superior then why do they have to FORCE it on users rather than offering a choice? I mean yeah, it's SO hugely impossible to pack anything in a sensible menu that an aftermarket program came out within a short time to do just that.

The level of arrogance is astounding.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2018, 01:47:10 am »
Dude, I'm not going to quote that huge wall of text, but arrogance, arrogance, arrogance. You make all kinds of claims, but cite no sources.
The source is actually the tons and tons of stuff Microsoft posted at the time, and presented in videos, about the Ribbon design process. (As a UX professional, I found it absolutely fascinating.) I can dig it up if you actually have any intention of reviewing it in earnest. Otherwise I won't bother.

Studies I read showed users being sharply divided between preference of ribbon vs traditional menus, yet you act as though there is some massive overwhelming unequivocal preference for ribbons.
Not preference, but rather task performance.

You talk as though I'm some kind of crazy one-off anomaly demanding a custom product just for me, when in fact there is enough backlash against the ribbon to have spawned quite popular aftermarket addons to support sensible menus.
I already said you're not alone. I even said I know that your level of hatred (namely, "extreme") is something I've encountered before. It doesn't make you a majority, though.

Office 97? Who said anything about Office 97 until you brought it up?
You did. You asked, and I quote: "what compelling features have been added to spreadsheets and word processors in the last 20 years?"

20 years ago, Office 97 was the current version.

That's called a straw man argument.
:-DD

What new features do you use that aren't in Office 2003? Please list the features that are in the ribbon that would not fit in the traditional menus because I can't for the life of me find anything that wouldn't be trivial to put there.
I've been civil and stuck to rational argument this entire time. Can you please do the same?

I honestly couldn't tell you off the top of my head what new features were added when, it's been too long. But I know that when I've had to go back and use Office 2003, I have run into various missing features.

Compromises, yes, "You will take the ribbon and you will like it because WE said so!" Yeah, that sounds like a compromise to me.
You're bitter. I get it. But the point is that on the whole, the Ribbon performs well. That is testable, and it was tested extensively.

Compromise would be continuing to include the standard menu as an option, like they did on the Mac version. They already had to do the work to find places for all these new features
As I already said, the menus on the Mac version are essentially frozen. New features have not been added to them.

so why couldn't they compromise and continue to provide the original option for the ~40-50% of users who prefer it?
I doubt that anywhere near that many people care either way. Sources for your claim?

If it is SOOOOOOOOO hard to do this then how did the aftermarket menu addon manage this impossible task?
Nobody said it was impossible. Just that it's wasted effort.

If the ribbon is so vastly superior then why do they have to FORCE it on users rather than offering a choice?
Because excessive choice is bad in a user interface. It's multiple interfaces to support, both from a technical and user support standpoint. There's a saying in usability: "every [preference setting] is a decision you refused to make". Obviously, some settings are needed. But often it's because the designers or engineers refused to make a decision and instead pawned off that effort onto the user.

I mean yeah, it's SO hugely impossible to pack anything in a sensible menu that an aftermarket program came out within a short time to do just that.

The level of arrogance is astounding.
No, it's Microsoft finally learning to a) do good usability research and design testing, b) make decisions, and c) follow through with them, instead of trying to please everybody.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 01:51:17 am by tooki »
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2018, 04:11:27 am »
I mean yeah, it's SO hugely impossible to pack anything in a sensible menu that an aftermarket program came out within a short time to do just that.

The level of arrogance is astounding.
No, it's Microsoft finally learning to a) do good usability research and design testing, b) make decisions, and c) follow through with them, instead of trying to please everybody.

I don't think Microsoft have learned anything. Look at Windows 8 and 10, they've made a dogs breakfast of it and instead of making people happy, they pissing their users off. I'm not alone when I say I'm looking at non-Microsoft alternatives for everyday use.
 

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2018, 05:41:06 am »

Weeeeellll… not exactly. As of 10.7 (i.e. around 6 years ago), the EULA does allow Mac OS X to run inside VMs, and commercial VMs, like VMware, do support it, with one caveat: only when running on a Mac as a host. (That's what the EULA allows for, and the commercial VM vendors enforce it.)

If it's failing in VirtualBox, it's probably because VirtualBox is crap. I can't tell you how much trouble I've had with customers using VirtualBox for a Windows or Linux VM, in stark contrast to VMware or Parallels, both of which work extremely well. You get what you pay for…

sorry, I mean run it in a VM on a *real* computer....
 :box:  8)
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2018, 05:45:19 am »
Quote
I've attached screenshots of what it looks like in a few apps.

Thanks very much for that. I notice, though, that you run Safari more or less full screen, so I don't really see much difference between that and a Windows app running the same way.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2018, 05:57:36 am »
Quote
It takes up less space than the menu bar and the toolbars that most users kept around. Remember that you can double-click the Ribbon tabs to collapse it, at which point it's basically a menu bar.

Not quite. When you open or collapse the ribbon your document goes up and down as the space available to it changes. With a traditional menu the document position is static. It's very annoying, just like those awful web pages that, just as you click a button, something causes it to move out of the way and you click something else.

Quote
But ultimately, it's not about space,

It is for me. My normal screen is 1200 deep, and when I use my FHD laptop at 1080, it seems that the space for document data is miniscule compared to furniture. We are used to reading in portrait mode (and, indeed, if a page is wide we use multiple columns). Modern screen are great for video but terrible for text, yet it's the text stuff that has ribbons.
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2018, 06:03:50 am »
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there is nothing to fault in MS's methodology in the Ribbon

Whoah! These are the people that have undiscoverability as a major feature of their OS, with invisible buttons, no change in cursor as you roll over things you can click, not difference in the text, flat windows with no edges, etc. And you say they somehow got things right there when everything they are currently doing is really terribly awful user interface?
 

Offline BradC

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2018, 07:57:37 am »

sorry, I mean run it in a VM on a *real* non-Apple computer....

Qemu/kvm has no problems doing that, you just have to violate Apples copyright to do it by reading the key string out of the SMC on a real Mac.
I've been doing that for years for compatibility testing.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2018, 03:14:06 pm »
Quote
I've attached screenshots of what it looks like in a few apps.

Thanks very much for that. I notice, though, that you run Safari more or less full screen, so I don't really see much difference between that and a Windows app running the same way.
Actually I don't. I only maximized the Word window for privacy and simplicity in the screenshot! I actually detest maximized windows and full-screen mode with the fire of a million burning suns!!! (It boggles my mind, actually, that people buy 27" 2560x1440 displays and then run their fucking windows maximized, such that most websites and apps just have gigantic margins on the sides… As a Mac user, one of the things that always surprised me about Windows users is their de-facto aversion to, well, windows. Maximized all the time, in essence just context-switching between apps.)

Bear in mind also that I'm on my MacBook at the moment, where around 2/3 of the screen width is a comfy reading size. On my desktop (a Mac Pro with a 27" 2560x1440 display), the windows are even narrower with respect to the screen size.

I hate tabs for the same reason!


I mean yeah, it's SO hugely impossible to pack anything in a sensible menu that an aftermarket program came out within a short time to do just that.

The level of arrogance is astounding.
No, it's Microsoft finally learning to a) do good usability research and design testing, b) make decisions, and c) follow through with them, instead of trying to please everybody.

I don't think Microsoft have learned anything. Look at Windows 8 and 10, they've made a dogs breakfast of it and instead of making people happy, they pissing their users off. I'm not alone when I say I'm looking at non-Microsoft alternatives for everyday use.
Err, yes, agreed. I actually should have said that it was MS learning to do good usability. I have no idea what substance the designers of Win 8 were on — trying to merge touch and mouse GUIs was absolute lunacy!

Quote
there is nothing to fault in MS's methodology in the Ribbon

Whoah! These are the people that have undiscoverability as a major feature of their OS, with invisible buttons, no change in cursor as you roll over things you can click, not difference in the text, flat windows with no edges, etc. And you say they somehow got things right there when everything they are currently doing is really terribly awful user interface?
I was only talking about the Ribbon, whose usability is quite good. And I specifically praised their methodology in its design process. Unless you've looked at that process, you can't really comment on it.

As for their current OS: The whole flat, undiscoverable design language that the entire computer industry has embraced is, to me, insane. It flies in the face of the usability research that's been done over the past 50 years.

I don't know whether the it's the same UX team behind the Ribbon as behind Metro. I sure hope not, because if the same people did the Ribbon (great work) and then Metro (batshit crazy), I'd have to question their precipitous decline in mental health. That, or bean counters with no idea about UX forced decisions.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 04:21:51 pm by tooki »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2018, 03:47:07 pm »
Quote
It takes up less space than the menu bar and the toolbars that most users kept around. Remember that you can double-click the Ribbon tabs to collapse it, at which point it's basically a menu bar.

Not quite. When you open or collapse the ribbon your document goes up and down as the space available to it changes. With a traditional menu the document position is static. It's very annoying, just like those awful web pages that, just as you click a button, something causes it to move out of the way and you click something else.
Huh, you're right! That is annoying! (I never use the Ribbon collapsed so I never noticed.)

Quote
But ultimately, it's not about space,

It is for me. My normal screen is 1200 deep, and when I use my FHD laptop at 1080, it seems that the space for document data is miniscule compared to furniture. We are used to reading in portrait mode (and, indeed, if a page is wide we use multiple columns). Modern screen are great for video but terrible for text, yet it's the text stuff that has ribbons.
I agree with you on this, too. I do not at all agree with the move to 16:9 displays in computing. I much prefer 4:3 myself. Even 16:10 is preferable to 16:9. But man, if somebody made a 32" 2560x1920 (4:3) LCD, or even better as 5120x3840, I'd be all over that… (You can get close with specialty radiography LCDs, but at $37,000 for a 33.6" 4200x2800 (3:2) Barco, it's a bit rich for my blood.)

Sadly, the economies of scale of using 16:9 for every step in LCD production in both TVs and computing means we're stuck with this.

There is one glimmer of hope: with "retina" resolutions, we're able to move away from subpixel rendering, which was a major hurdle with regards to 90˚ rotation on displays designed as landscape. (Mac OS X definitely cannot do subpixel rendering on rotated displays, and I'm not even sure Windows can, though I know it supports BGR, i.e. 180˚ rotation.) So "retina" displays using regular antialiasing can be rotated 90˚ to a nice portrait mode.




What's even more insane to me are those ultrawide screens (21:9). They're pointless as home theater screens (since an equally wide 16:9 LCD gives you the same image for a lot less cost, just letterboxed), and they're even more insane as computer displays, other than perhaps for VR and gaming.

And that curved LCD bullshit. It adds nothing at the viewing angles we use them at, yet makes them take up more space (especially in TVs) and likely makes them easier to break.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2018, 04:08:49 pm »
I don't think the moderators give a toss if you pirate the hell out of Mac OS, so long as you don't post any copyrighted material on this site.

What's the point of this thread? You want experience of using OS X, good for you. Are you thinking about posting a guide telling others how to do it or are you asking for help?

Want experience with an alternative to Windows, then how about a free OS such as Linux or BSD which you can get without pirating anything?

Eerrmm.... sorry mate. I don't understand your negativity.......

Firstly, regarding no-one, (moderators), giving a 'toss' ......
I imagined (as a fallible human on such 'forums'), that 'certain' people might think that I was trying to
start some 'old' debate about "Apple vs Windows" which I'm sure has been done to death ???
USUALLY, this results in a 'Post' being Blocked/Suspended or what ever the 'techs' call it.....
(This was NOT the case mate)

Secondly... regarding your "What is the point of this thread?" statement......
Well... I was DARING to simply talk about 'fields' of 'computing' that 'one' might not know anything about,
but was willing to try to understand, even at a simple level, for the betterment of knowledge.....

I don't WANT to learn about 'Linux' or 'BSD' as they are not as mainstream, and 'I' have no interest....
Ok... you have (had) 10,535 Posts, and I have (had) a measly 167.  (Yep... I'm a shit-kicker)
Unfortunately, (as in real life), with 'importance/familiarity' comes contempt for others.....

I hope that 'others' on this planet 'Earth' understand that I just wanted a little bit of insite, about
this little known facet (to me...) in this computing world.

  • I didn't see why the moderators would have a problem with the thread. You seemed to imply that this discussion might not be allowed, but had different reasons for why it might be deleted, a Mac OS X vs Windows/Linux debate, than I did: discussion of pirate software. In any case I don't see the issue, as long as it stays civilised.
  • There was no negativity intended. It was a genuine question. I wanted to know the purpose of creating the thread, because it wasn't clear from the first post.
  • Whether you like it or not, this kind of thread will always stir up, OS X vs other OSes debates, regardless of the original intention. Hopefully it will stay civilised and run its course, otherwise it will get petty and no doubt locked.
  • Post count makes no difference to anything.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 04:12:35 pm by Hero999 »
 
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