Author Topic: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!  (Read 11093 times)

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Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2018, 04:15:58 pm »
Prompted by this thread I have ordered High Sierra and will install it in a VM on my Mac to find out for myself how addictive it is :)
 
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Offline Muxr

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2018, 05:32:49 pm »
Prompted by this thread I have ordered High Sierra and will install it in a VM on my Mac to find out for myself how addictive it is :)
It takes about a month of day to day use, to wrap your head around a few concepts, or at least it did for me.

At first I hated the alt-tab behaviour in MacOS but after I got it it's way superior to Windows. In Windows you have alt-tab and that's it.. it switches between all the windows you have open.

On a Mac Alt tab only switches between the Appls you have opened. If you want to switch between windows of the same app you have to use Alt-~. Pain to get used to at first but way better for power users. Like it's really amazing to have that sort of granularity if you're say working on a laptop and screen real-estate is an issue and you're working with multiple programs.

Windows is an OS better suited to casual people, while MacOS is better suited for power users in my opinion. If only Apple didn't drag their feet with upgrading their computers, I would still be using MacOS. The two models I am interested in are woefully outdated. MacPro and Mac Mini.

Also it is ridiculous how much more power I can get on the Windows/Linux side with things like the new Threadripper 2 for way less money. Apple never had a good value/performance proposition, but I feel like ever since AMD kicked off the core war, it's never been this bad.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 05:40:51 pm by Muxr »
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2018, 08:55:16 pm »
Quote
It takes about a month of day to day use, to wrap your head around a few concepts

Already sounds simpler than W10 :)

Quote
In Windows you have alt-tab and that's it.. it switches between all the windows you have open

There is also Ctl-Tab whcih switches between windows of an app. Been there since forever, and I have to say that's a bit more consistent than the Alt-~ on OSX. I use Ctl-Tab a lot more than I do Alt-Tab.

But thanks for the hints.



 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2018, 09:04:44 pm »
If only Apple didn't drag their feet with upgrading their computers, I would still be using MacOS. The two models I am interested in are woefully outdated. MacPro and Mac Mini.

Rumours abound about a refreshed Mac Mini coming in the fall. I really hope they're true. The mini is a nifty little machine.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2018, 02:40:37 am »
At first I hated the alt-tab behaviour in MacOS but after I got it it's way superior to Windows. In Windows you have alt-tab and that's it.. it switches between all the windows you have open.

On a Mac Alt tab only switches between the Appls you have opened. If you want to switch between windows of the same app you have to use Alt-~. Pain to get used to at first but way better for power users. Like it's really amazing to have that sort of granularity if you're say working on a laptop and screen real-estate is an issue and you're working with multiple programs.
FYI, it's not Alt-tab and Alt-~, it's Command-Tab and Command-~ to cycle between apps and between windows within an app, respectively.

The Mac essentially (perhaps strictly?) never uses Option (the Mac name for Alt) and a character key alone as a shortcut: Option-[character] accesses extra characters. But Option can tag along with another modifier key (like Command) to modify that.
 

Offline GlennSpriggTopic starter

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2018, 06:47:13 am »
I sincerely thank 'ALL' those who posted a response to this!!
By virtue of the 'comments', I at least have an 'insight' into the likes/concerns, from "The Other Side"  :)
I just want to appreciate that which I am ignorant of... (and with my 'blatant' Hack Version !!!)   8)

Although "All I Know", (knew), was 'PC's' all my life, (building/programming etc), I was never so ignorant
to not know/sense that "Apple/Mac" systems must still have major 'importance', especially as they (seem?)
to have MAJOR places in a multitude of Medical/Scientific Fields etc ???  I don't doubt the experts knowledge.

And, YES, to answer some peoples queries, I was not talking initially about 'Servers' and such, but 'Home'
computer systems, when 'putting aside' Linux/Bsd etc. I KNOW how important they are under the 'hood'.
I understand the multitude of 'ShortFalls' with MS-Windows, as have worked with them for years....

NOTE/Question 1......
I've always 'heard' that there are NO 'real' Viruses for a Mac.... ???.... For 2 reasons.... One, that it is said
to be 'difficult' due to the 'O.S.', and that 'people' 'RESPECT' the 'O.S.' and so less inclined to attack it ?????

NOTE/Question 2......
Is the ability to run 'OS-X' (modified) on a PC using a Virtual O.S. only possible, because of the fact(?) that
Macs are now using 'Intel' Processors ?
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2018, 07:17:29 am »
NOTE/Question 1......
I've always 'heard' that there are NO 'real' Viruses for a Mac.... ???.... For 2 reasons.... One, that it is said
to be 'difficult' due to the 'O.S.', and that 'people' 'RESPECT' the 'O.S.' and so less inclined to attack it ?????

This is false. My professional recommendation is that regardless of OS your run a basic file/memory virus scanner. No system is totally immune to viruses, malware, data miners etc... Without something at least doing a cursory check, you wouldn't know until perhaps it's too late. This is especially important if you're sharing files across different platforms. At work, we even scan iOS devices for known viruses, it's very unlikely but it's not unheard of, especially when handling jail broken/rooted phones.

I would seriously question the expertise and qualifications of anyone who gives you advice to the contrary. A virus scanner of course won't protect you from most vulnerabilities and exploits that exist in operating systems.

NOTE/Question 2......
Is the ability to run 'OS-X' (modified) on a PC using a Virtual O.S. only possible, because of the fact(?) that
Macs are now using 'Intel' Processors ?

Yes.
 
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2018, 09:47:24 am »
If only Apple didn't drag their feet with upgrading their computers, I would still be using MacOS. The two models I am interested in are woefully outdated. MacPro and Mac Mini.

Rumours abound about a refreshed Mac Mini coming in the fall. I really hope they're true. The mini is a nifty little machine.

This will only have value to me if (a) they reintroduce 4+ core 45W TDP processors like they had in the 2012 models and (b) reintroduce user upgradeable RAM (and allow internal storage upgrades).

The 2014 Mac Mini was a fail as far as I’m concerned, a shame because the quad core 2012 models remain pretty good machines, up to 16GB RAM and two 2.5” SATA 3 slots, all user upgradeable.
 

Offline gnif

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2018, 10:22:46 am »
I would seriously question the expertise and qualifications of anyone who gives you advice to the contrary. A virus scanner of course won't protect you from most vulnerabilities and exploits that exist in operating systems.

Oh no... well I'm boned!

Seriously though, I have not run AntiVirus since the last good version of Norton's AV (2002). But then again, I run Linux, use ZFS snapshots and daily backups to an encrypted enterprise SAS cold storage array :P.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2018, 11:27:51 am »
I would seriously question the expertise and qualifications of anyone who gives you advice to the contrary. A virus scanner of course won't protect you from most vulnerabilities and exploits that exist in operating systems.

Oh no... well I'm boned!

Seriously though, I have not run AntiVirus since the last good version of Norton's AV (2002). But then again, I run Linux, use ZFS snapshots and daily backups to an encrypted enterprise SAS cold storage array :P.

You're excused. ;-)

I was generalising a little. 90% of IT "experts" are not experts at all.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #60 on: August 10, 2018, 12:23:00 pm »
NOTE/Question 1......
I've always 'heard' that there are NO 'real' Viruses for a Mac.... ???.... For 2 reasons.... One, that it is said
to be 'difficult' due to the 'O.S.', and that 'people' 'RESPECT' the 'O.S.' and so less inclined to attack it ?????

This is false. My professional recommendation is that regardless of OS your run a basic file/memory virus scanner. No system is totally immune to viruses, malware, data miners etc... Without something at least doing a cursory check, you wouldn't know until perhaps it's too late. This is especially important if you're sharing files across different platforms. At work, we even scan iOS devices for known viruses, it's very unlikely but it's not unheard of, especially when handling jail broken/rooted phones.

I would seriously question the expertise and qualifications of anyone who gives you advice to the contrary. A virus scanner of course won't protect you from most vulnerabilities and exploits that exist in operating systems.
It depends on what you mean by virus scanner. If you're talking about the type which don't run in the background, then yes I agree: scan downloads and periodically scan the hard drive for viruses, but if you're on about the memory resident variety, which run in the background, I wholeheartedly disagree. Memory resident virus scanners are bad things, not only do they use resources, although in practice this makes little difference on modern hardware, but they introduce new vulnerabilities which weren't there before. I avoid them like the plague.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #61 on: August 10, 2018, 02:24:42 pm »
Quote
But then again, I run Linux, use ZFS snapshots...

Linux has exploits, and whilst having backups/archives is jolly useful, you have to know your data is changed before you can know to do a restore. Being able to restore doesn't pull back exfiltrated data, though.

However, the real issue is not so much your system but what could use that as a stepping-stone to something else. Like you, I am careful as to what I do, but even so I've been lucky a couple of times.
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2018, 06:25:33 pm »
If only Apple didn't drag their feet with upgrading their computers, I would still be using MacOS. The two models I am interested in are woefully outdated. MacPro and Mac Mini.

Rumours abound about a refreshed Mac Mini coming in the fall. I really hope they're true. The mini is a nifty little machine.

This will only have value to me if (a) they reintroduce 4+ core 45W TDP processors like they had in the 2012 models and (b) reintroduce user upgradeable RAM (and allow internal storage upgrades).

The 2014 Mac Mini was a fail as far as I’m concerned, a shame because the quad core 2012 models remain pretty good machines, up to 16GB RAM and two 2.5” SATA 3 slots, all user upgradeable.
[/quote]

My mini is that quad Core i7. I dunno why the follow-on minis were dual core, it was a step backwards, I think, even if the processors had higher clock speeds. If you could get a quad core machine in a MacBook Pro, why not a mini?
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2018, 06:27:22 pm »
NOTE/Question 1......
I've always 'heard' that there are NO 'real' Viruses for a Mac.... ???.... For 2 reasons.... One, that it is said
to be 'difficult' due to the 'O.S.', and that 'people' 'RESPECT' the 'O.S.' and so less inclined to attack it ?????

This is false. My professional recommendation is that regardless of OS your run a basic file/memory virus scanner. No system is totally immune to viruses, malware, data miners etc... Without something at least doing a cursory check, you wouldn't know until perhaps it's too late. This is especially important if you're sharing files across different platforms.

Can someone, anyone, point me to an up-to-date list of viruses which affect the Mac?


[quote[At work, we even scan iOS devices for known viruses, it's very unlikely but it's not unheard of, especially when handling jail broken/rooted phones.[/quote]

What viruses exist for iOS? What is the vector for infection?

 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2018, 07:26:37 pm »
Can someone, anyone, point me to an up-to-date list of viruses which affect the Mac?

Someone, anyone, Google maybe? :P

Here's a recent lists of viruses, malware etc. which have gained some notoriety:
https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/mac-software/mac-viruses-malware-security-3668354/
 

Offline GlennSpriggTopic starter

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #65 on: August 11, 2018, 12:24:10 pm »
As a follow-on from my last comment, about Apple/Mac now using 'Intel' processors...
(Remember, I'm just trying to understand "The other side", as a Windows user).
Although it's now easier (possible!) to Virtualize a Mac with Windows, why did they do it ?
What was wrong with the OS/Hardware/Chips that Apple originally had ?
Diagonal of 1x1 square = Root-2. Ok.
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Offline ebastler

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #66 on: August 11, 2018, 01:03:43 pm »
What was wrong with the [OS/]Hardware/Chips that Apple originally had ?

Performance. First the 68000, and later the Power PC processors, were falling behind.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2018, 10:46:25 pm »
What was wrong with the [OS/]Hardware/Chips that Apple originally had ?

Performance. First the 68000, and later the Power PC processors, were falling behind.
It’s certainly true that at the end, the PowerPC stagnated, right as Intel really got its shit together and started making really efficient CPUs. But the 68k series was quite strong to the end, Apple jumped to PPC before the 68K line had in any way fallen behind.
 
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #68 on: August 12, 2018, 02:07:04 am »
Can someone, anyone, point me to an up-to-date list of viruses which affect the Mac?

What viruses exist for iOS? What is the vector for infection?

The defence of "I wasn't me, a virus must have done it" has been brought up in court many times. The prosecution needs to negate that argument and simply saying "Apple products don't get viruses" is not only false, but won't stand up as evidence.

No where does Apple claim that their products are immune or free from viruses.

There are a bunch of resources on the net if you want to know more about viruses/malware etc... which specficially targets iOS and OS X products:

Here are just a few:
https://www.theiphonewiki.com/wiki/Malware_for_iOS
http://www.reedcorner.net/mmg-catalog/
https://www.kaspersky.com/blog/mac-viruses-are-here-to-stay10-examples-of-mac-viruses/556/

As I said, anti virus becomes increasingly important if you're sharing files between different platforms. Simply blocking your ears and covering your eyes isn't a form of protection.
 

Offline shteii01

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #69 on: August 12, 2018, 05:03:19 am »
As a follow-on from my last comment, about Apple/Mac now using 'Intel' processors...
(Remember, I'm just trying to understand "The other side", as a Windows user).
Although it's now easier (possible!) to Virtualize a Mac with Windows, why did they do it ?
What was wrong with the OS/Hardware/Chips that Apple originally had ?
You will need to check wiki, but I think IBM was designing and making G chips for Apple.  The thing is... lately cpu design has become a very expensive process.  Fabrication also became much more expansive, I think mostly due to updates for the fabrication equipment.  It seems in the consumer area only Intel and AMD make cpu now.  And note that these two are literally ONLY MAKE SILICON.  Nothing else.  IBM let Apple know that they were getting out of cpu business so Apple had to find a new cpu designer/manufacturer.  The rest is history.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #70 on: August 12, 2018, 09:34:23 am »
(I don’t need to check wiki, I know this stuff by heart! :P ) PowerPC chips were made by several vendors, primarily Motorola and IBM. At the time that Apple switched to Intel, they were still using Motorola’s G4 (PPC7400 series) chips in the PowerBook, iBook, and Mac mini, and IBM’s G5 (PPC970 series) in the Power Mac and iMac (and xServe).

IBM had promised both 3GHz chips and mobile versions, and delivered neither.

IBM still makes CPUs, but only for high end servers.
 
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Offline gnif

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #71 on: August 12, 2018, 11:27:05 am »
Quote
But then again, I run Linux, use ZFS snapshots...

Linux has exploits, and whilst having backups/archives is jolly useful, you have to know your data is changed before you can know to do a restore. Being able to restore doesn't pull back exfiltrated data, though.

However, the real issue is not so much your system but what could use that as a stepping-stone to something else. Like you, I am careful as to what I do, but even so I've been lucky a couple of times.

Very correct, which is why I do not allow code or binary blobs from untrusted sources into my work network, and run a enterprise grade firewall that restricts outgoing traffic from mission critical infrastructure. Even still there are still risks, but no more then when running AV which is unable to catch viruses that have not yet crossed the AV companies research desk. AV is only as good as it's definition updates, the bigger risk are zero day exploits which AV is useless against.

In the professional hosting world, as soon as a server has been compromised, with or without AV, the server is removed from service, rebuilt and any web apps are redeployed from a known clean source. Even if the AV does catch/alert on something, odds are that you can't trust the machine anymore.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #72 on: August 12, 2018, 01:39:16 pm »
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AV is only as good as it's definition updates

Not quite true (and if someone does get hit by a zero-day, it's not a zero-day for long). My AV, for instance, watches for changes to certain registry keys (which malware would usually need to change to allow persistence), access to certain facilities, etc. I don't trust it enough to blithely blunder around the interwebs clicking hither and yon, but as that last "Er, you don' t really want to do that" catcher when I have the security equivalent of fat fingers, it can be very useful.

At one time I used to consider my system immune because it was isolated behind a firewall and I didn't run dodgy stuff, but when another users PC got hit (via a secure VPN to HP, stunningly) and then had free access to everything on the network, I understood better the risks I'd previously dismissed as scaremongering.
 

Offline gnif

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #73 on: August 12, 2018, 09:15:06 pm »
Quote
AV is only as good as it's definition updates

Not quite true (and if someone does get hit by a zero-day, it's not a zero-day for long). My AV, for instance, watches for changes to certain registry keys (which malware would usually need to change to allow persistence), access to certain facilities, etc. I don't trust it enough to blithely blunder around the interwebs clicking hither and yon, but as that last "Er, you don' t really want to do that" catcher when I have the security equivalent of fat fingers, it can be very useful.

At one time I used to consider my system immune because it was isolated behind a firewall and I didn't run dodgy stuff, but when another users PC got hit (via a secure VPN to HP, stunningly) and then had free access to everything on the network, I understood better the risks I'd previously dismissed as scaremongering.

I do not disagree that there are still some merits, but AV software has become so bloated for the few little protections it adds (registry key monitoring, etc.), it's not worth the overheads. As for your unfortunate incident with the VPN, this is something that has always worried me and as such I run virtual lans (VLAN) and a managed switch to allow me to isolate users from my trusted systems. Even my wireless users that are "trusted" are on their own VLAN to prevent a roaming target from being able to access resources they don't need access to.

Thankfully my users do not need file server access, all mission critical services are accessed via SSH and live on a server attached to a HSM which is used to authenticate the user with a smart card. To be affected by a virus it would have to be specifically designed to attack our custom infrastructure and custom software in a very specific way. Not to say we are immune, thus the backups and snapshots, encrypted volumes and encrypted databases. I just do not see how AV would save anyone when the attacker is out specifically to attack you, anything used will be unknown by the AV as it would be custom developed to attack you specifically.

There is more risk from a rogue or careless employee then a virus as the employee is "trusted" and already has access.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2018, 09:18:05 pm by gnif »
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Apple/Mac/Windows.... Hang on though !!!!!
« Reply #74 on: August 13, 2018, 12:13:32 am »
Quote
AV software has become so bloated

Aye, you're not wrong there! Reminds me of the wonderful Nero DVD-buring utility which gradually, over the years, acquired features until its original functionality was pretty much forgotten. Gosh, and Norton's. <tear falls from eye>

 


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