Author Topic: Assuming these eye witness reports are accurate:UFO technology how would it work  (Read 1405 times)

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Offline Beamin

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I always believed in aliens but I didn't really think they could be here as the government sucks at keeping secrets. This is the most professional documentary of credible eye witness reports from military personal I have ever seen. Without debating if they are real lets assume what they saw actually happened and hw would you explain it?


The most interesting parts are the fact these objects could do right angle turns, remotely disable the war heads, fly without using aero dynamics, or most fascinating was the "eyeball" probe that melted into 5 little ones and flew away.

As far as right angle turns there are a couple of things: These crafts probably are remotely controlled as any multicellular life would be crushed by the almost infinite g forces. There is a fourth and fifth special dimension scientists have found that only interacts with matter through gravity and can fit macroscopic objects the size of a few micrometers in size. They call it the egg dimension because it has a forward backward component and a circumference component a 2D sphere where the walls take up space but there is no 3d space inside. If the craft could somehow use this it would appear that it was making a 90' turn when in fact it's not. That or it's playing around with time directly around the object.


As far as remotely turning off the missiles it is possible that it could emit a radio beam that would charge the wires in electronics mimicking the signal. If these are vacuum tube era devices this would be easier as you have long wires acting as antennas and wouldn't be that complex. Relatively speaking there would be an insane amount of variables to beam shape path and propagation to make it work but definitely physically possible. Unfortunately they didn't say what kind of damage it did or how they repaired them.

The "red scanning lasers" could have been beams of different EM radiation and they could measure how the materials it struck radiated it telling about what was inside the buildings. The color could be an actual laser or just radiation the beam is giving off as it passes through air.

Since all these sighting happened around nuclear facilities it's most likely they have neutrino detectors as you can't detect uranium or plutonium just from the EM radiation it gives off from back ground at a distance.

The power sources they use must be nuclear as it would take an insane amount of energy to fly these things or shape into smaller ones. The could possibly heat the air directly around the surface of the craft to push it through the air like how they can lift things by pulsing lasers underneath objects.


For some reason it seems they will see them on radar and other times they won't. The Mexican military in the 2000 was using IR to look for drug smugglers when they saw all these spheres following them but there were no radar signatures. There is a video of it and you can hear the pilots asking for radar confirmation.

The most startling video was the one the actual navy released a few years ago where F18 pilots were chasing this top shaped craft and it does all the usual ufo stuff where it did right angle turns and then would just stop and wobble around. The most disturbing thing is when the pilot asks "what do you think it is?" and the other pilot responds by saying "it? look on your scope there are a whole bunch of these thigs and its nothing that we have"

I wonder if they disabled the missiles to say "don't mess with this technology" or you have no defense against us.

Certainly enough to make you think. The military doesn't really have to hide them because mainstream opinion is that it's fake. Just sow enough doubt to push it out of the main stream.


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Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Without debating if they are real lets assume what they saw actually happened and hw would you explain it?

If you leave out reality, then it's pointless to speculate. By definition, if they do things we think are impossible then they have technology we can't even imagine.
Any theory is as good as any other. Mine is they are powered by unicorn farts.

However, the idea that super-intelligent beings travel thousands of light years just to dick about with us is obviously preposterous.
Bob
"All you said is just a bunch of opinions."
 
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Offline glarsson

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However, the idea that super-intelligent beings travel thousands of light years just to dick about with us is obviously preposterous.
Many humans have a craving of feeling special.
For some this craving is fulfilled by inventing a God that created his/her special people in a special world.
For some this craving is fulfilled by inventing aliens visiting our special world.
For some this craving is fulfilled by believing our planet is special, very flat and very special. But especially flat. Just flat.
 
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Offline CopperCone

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you need materials properties that we don't know exist or if possible to some how make

step 1 would be to make a force diagram, put in a guess mass, then see what requirements you get for energy, then you can guess at things like materials stain, power plant requirement, etc

when you write stuff like 'almost infinite' it sounds like metaphysical baloney. at least try to estimate to an order of magnitude. even some kind of relativistic numbers would be more useful and infinitely more interesting

you need to write out a spec or your gonna get retarded bullshit responses like 'unicorn farts' and ranting about human psychology because no one wants to write a spec. no one ever wants to write a spec. its a engineering forum. determine a spec. if you don't know how then you need to ask about how to determine a spec. you cant have a meaningful technological discussion without a spec.

if your numbers are ridiclous then you might be justified in saying something like 'requires a material that would......... violate this that this that'

when you don't have some kind of number or energy requirement or something then it just turns into shamanism.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 03:47:08 am by CopperCone »
 
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Offline Beamin

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I was thinking more the like of that "Issac guy that talks like elmer fud"; type of discussion where he says math can do this and with out breaking the laws of nature we could assume they would need this much energy etc etc.


I love hearing him say "kubliay warp  drive"
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Offline Rick Law

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I was thinking more the like of that "Issac guy that talks like elmer fud"; type of discussion where he says math can do this and with out breaking the laws of nature we could assume they would need this much energy etc etc.


I love hearing him say "kubliay warp  drive"

You wont see any math.  Besides not knowing what to calculate, math breaks down when you deal with singularities.

To illustrate the break down:

It takes infinite amount of energy to accelerate Joe OR his wife to travel at the speed of light.  How much energy does it take to accelerate BOTH Joe AND his wife to travel at the speed of light?  Can you add two infinities together?  Of course, but you are no closer to having a workable number.

Now that same issue with your "right angle turning UFO."

To make a true right angle turn at even as slow as city-driving speed, you will need infinite energy.  First, you need absorb your forward momentum.  True right angle turns means your forward motion stops in zero distance.  That requires infinite deceleration which requires infinite energy.  Say you can do that, now you need to reach to your former forward speed but at the 90 degree angle.  From no side-way speed to former forward speed (but side-ways) immediately.  To reach a speed immediately needs infinite acceleration.  That requires infinite energy.  So total energy requires is adding that two infinities together.

In real life, even with driving, you really don't make right-angle turns.  You make small quarter circle turns.  The smaller the turn-circle radius (or the faster you turn), the higher the centripetal force (the more energy required to overcome it so as to stay on course).  For true right-angle, your turn-circle has a zero turn radius making it requiring infinite energy.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Just for fun, I'm going to list some ideas. Phrased as absolutes, but that's only to save time typing a whole lot of wimpy qualifiers.
These are all 'my hunches' with varying degrees of support reasoning from whatever basic principles I think are relevant. I'm going to totally leave out all supporting discussion.  (Because it would take weeks, and most wouldn't get it anyway.)

Entities

* There are NO spacefaring alien species, no great interstellar civilizations. None, not even a single one in the entire universe. And we humans will never be such either. There is a basic exclusionary principle, no exceptions. The 'Fermi Paradox' is not.

* There ARE lots and lots of high sentience individual self-engineering immortal space-faring entities. Machine intelligences if you will, though they use a mix of biological and machine tech. Whatever is most efficient for specific needs. These beings ALL arose independently by self-transforming themselves from biological individuals in many instances of biological species that developed technology to around or a bit beyond the level humans are now.

* Entities like the 'grays' (stereotypical area 51 alien body on dissecting slab photo) are not 'the aliens'. They are sentient waldo devices, acting as remote agents of the real 'aliens'. The grays are sort of open-source bio-constructs, that most space-farers share, as well developed, low cost, energy efficient space-viable observation and manipulation units. They have independent intelligence, even free will, but get periodically mind-uploaded to the main spacefarer mind/processing ships. No reproductive organs, very little or no 'digestive' systems, because they are manufactured as required. The Grays (and other variants we find on Earth) are not species; rather model & revision numbers.

* There are actual spacefarer entities playing observer in the solar system. The story of Earth's biosphere evolution, and the very recent humankind _potential_ to birth one or more spacefarer entities, is quite interesting to them. I use the plural, but it could be just one. Also such beings can fork and merge themselves (their consciousness and physical matrix)  if they feel the need.

* What they DON'T have, is any instinct-driven behavior. No drive to spread and subdue, conquest, etc. Nothing but the most basic requirement for a sentience that won't just decide to self-terminate: curiosity.

* All the same, such beings will by their origins have widely differing 'styles'. There would be differences of opinion and objectives. There may be 'factions.' Not necessarily all friendly to each other. Avoiding conflict where possible, but you wouldn't want to be nearby (lightyears) if they did have a serious argument.

* They have been here a long time. Millions or billions of years. For immortal machine intelligences that's not a big deal. A pleasant picnic stop, on the grand tour. (Maybe they got sick of the dinosaurs dead end, and that meteor was theirs? 'Change the channel', ha ha.)

* Philosophically, they have very good reasons to 'not intervene' with species-based sentience (us) in general. With some wiggle room. More on this later.

* The difference between 'them' and humans is immense. Not even on the same scale. There's no, zero, motivation for them to open any kind of formal contact with human society. Many good reasons not to, including primarily because it would 'poison the story.'  You work it out. Think about what would be the one and only universal medium of trade among such entities. Hint: It's nothing material, or energy-related.  There's no shortage of either for such beings.

* Those guys are by necessity and vast timescales, masters of every possible kind of bio-gene-engineering. If they wanted to construct human look-alikes (or lizard people) then they could. Don't dismiss really weird stories just because.

* On the other hand, maybe some of them are not at all what we'd call 'nice.'  Satanic possession and all that crap? Something to bear in mind when contemplating contemporary global politics.


Physics

* We have a long way to go. Not even close to the 'bottom' yet.
For instance why are volcanism surges on Earth, correlated with solar minimums over geological timescales? My guess - something like the 'weird science' theories called Scalar Waves'. Something the Sun does, affects statistical rates of decay of unstable isotopes 'in the vicinity.' So, a connection between Solar internal processes, and heat production in the Earth's interior due to isotopic decay. We're seeing that right now, with the Sun going into the early stage of another Maunder Minimum scale quiet period, and suddenly... lots of volcanoes lighting up. Hunch: This is going to get really dramatic over the next decade.

* The concept of Scalar Waves is not gravity waves, not EM. Rather a wave function in a scalar substrate underlying everything. A substrate that exhibits 'self-focusing' effects in its medium, bit like how mass falls into gravity wells on the scales we know. Fundamental particles being perhaps 'knots' in tangled strings of those focused waves. And all the standard 'fields' (E, M, gravity, strong, etc) being emergent large-scale properties of stuff going on down in the 'tangles'. Don't ask, I have no idea.

The point being, that if there _is_ some radically different next level down, then we have no idea of what kind of sci-fi stuff may be possible. Energy rays, gravity control, reactionless drive, etc. We can no more predict, than a 1700's theoretician could predict lasers and gravity lensing.

* If there is something like 'strings', them maybe there can be 'knitting' of them? Super materials, anyone? Macroscopic material with properties exceeding nuclear particles?

* The speed of light, _is_ an absolute limit. This has the interesting effect of quarantining interstellar travel against infestations of 'evolved-species-based' sentiences, even if only for the brief moments that's possible for other reasons. Only immortals can travel interstellar distances reliably. And the only way to be immortal is to go self-engineered machine intelligence. Spread over a swarm of identical vehicles, so inevitable collisions with gravel at high velocity don't cause data loss on the journey.

* Another interesting thing about potential 'scalar wave' beams, and scalar waves having effects on fundamental nuclear constants hence isotopic decay rates, is allowing remote influence of said decay rates. In which case, stories of UFOs hanging around nuclear missile bases, and the warheads all going dead one after another, might be cases of the Aliens checking they can prevent human governments from prematurely terminating the 'interesting story' of Earth's development.
Ever hear the rumor that there are really 'no nukes'? Or anyway, that a lot of the ones we build, 'somehow' turn into non-functional devices. I like this idea.

Governments

* Absolutely _can_ keep secrets. Don't confuse the kind of random crap that happens at low levels, with operations at levels where motivations and methods include simply killing potential leak risks. And everyone at that level knows it.

Got to go now.   (Wait, how did I get sucked into another of Beamin's topics?)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 11:50:44 am by TerraHertz »
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Offline Rick Law

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... ... ... And the only way to be immortal is to go self-engineered machine intelligence. Spread over a swarm of identical vehicles, so inevitable collisions with gravel at high velocity don't cause data loss on the journey. ... ...

That wont work.  You also need to find an inexhaustible energy to be immortal.

Eventually, every star in the universe would have ran out of fuel.  If the universe is indeed expanding forever, you are out of luck once your local area is out of working stars - the other stars would be receding faster than the speed of light**.

So, you need to have a source of energy supply that doesn't rely on stars.  May be harness vacuum energy somehow, may be finding a way to break the laws of thermos dynamics.  Whatever the "how", you need energy to keep the hardware running.  Otherwise, you are condemn to die with the universe in cold, quiet, and darkness.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Footnote:
** The stars are not moving faster than the speed of light.  The distance/space between you and your destination is expanding, so the next moment of time has more space to expand comparing to this moment of time - so the cumulative expansion is ever increasing.  Eventually, the compound expansion per-second exceeds what light can travel per-second.  At that point, your destination recedes from you faster than the speed of light - even a photon can't get there.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 04:20:55 am by Rick Law »
 

Offline glarsson

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Why does it always have to be extraterrestrial aliens?
Why not aliens from a different dimension? Would explain sudden appearances and disappearances of UFO:s.
Why not us from the future? Would explain "aliens" with two legs, two arms, two eyes, ...        :popcorn:
 

Offline Seph.b

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This thread makes me think of one of my favorite stories by Voltaire, Micromagus. I think it is actually considered the first Sci Fi, but not positive on that. It is about how life in a different form and scale than ours is all but invisible to us.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/30123/30123-h/30123-h.htm

That said, considering how young the universe is compared to it's theoretical maximum age, I think we are probably the first or one of the first kids on the block. The universe, probably even our vicinity, is probably teeming with life. The odds of that life becoming fire and tool using is so low that it may just be us. Consider a water world, which is a likely outcome for rocky planets larger than ours, no mater how intelligent the inhabitants were they would never discover fire and hence their tools and materials would remain very simple and never meaningfully advance.
 

Offline StillTrying

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As it's World #UFODay today, what time are they arriving?

Offline AllTheGearNoIdea

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Quote :

However, the idea that super-intelligent beings travel thousands of light years just to dick about with us is obviously preposterous.

 End Quotes

I just wanted to point out if I was an Alien with FTL travel I would be quite prepared to travel thousands of light years just to dick about. I see dicking about as pretty fundamental right up there with food fire and shelter.
AllTheGearNoIdea Where Its All About The Gear
 

Offline Seph.b

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Quote :

However, the idea that super-intelligent beings travel thousands of light years just to dick about with us is obviously preposterous.

 End Quotes

I just wanted to point out if I was an Alien with FTL travel I would be quite prepared to travel thousands of light years just to dick about. I see dicking about as pretty fundamental right up there with food fire and shelter.

"Show me what you got."
 
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Offline AllTheGearNoIdea

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Quote :

However, the idea that super-intelligent beings travel thousands of light years just to dick about with us is obviously preposterous.

 End Quotes

I just wanted to point out if I was an Alien with FTL travel I would be quite prepared to travel thousands of light years just to dick about. I see dicking about as pretty fundamental right up there with food fire and shelter.

"Show me what you got."


Just look at my YouTube Channel I’m a born dick and proud. I won’t link as it’s off topic for the thread.

Regards Chris
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Offline Seph.b

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Quote :

However, the idea that super-intelligent beings travel thousands of light years just to dick about with us is obviously preposterous.

 End Quotes

I just wanted to point out if I was an Alien with FTL travel I would be quite prepared to travel thousands of light years just to dick about. I see dicking about as pretty fundamental right up there with food fire and shelter.

"Show me what you got."


Just look at my YouTube Channel I’m a born dick and proud. I won’t link as it’s off topic for the thread.

Regards Chris

I was referencing a Rick and Morty episode where super intelligent giant heads steal the earth to put it in a talent based reality TV show. A very good episode if you have not seen it.
 
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Offline nctnico

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I always believed in aliens but I didn't really think they could be here as the government sucks at keeping secrets. This is the most professional documentary of credible eye witness reports from military personal I have ever seen. Without debating if they are real lets assume what they saw actually happened and hw would you explain it?
Fata morgana.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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* Entities like the 'grays' (stereotypical area 51 alien body on dissecting slab photo) are not 'the aliens'. They are sentient waldo devices, acting as remote agents of the real 'aliens'. The grays are sort of open-source bio-constructs, that most space-farers share, as well developed, low cost, energy efficient space-viable observation and manipulation units. They have independent intelligence, even free will, but get periodically mind-uploaded to the main spacefarer mind/processing ships. No reproductive organs, very little or no 'digestive' systems, because they are manufactured as required.

Nice one, and there's supporting evidence for it too:
https://www.gpf-comics.com/wiki/Pi
;D

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Offline Relayer

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Hello Beamin,
I agree the government sucks in trying to keep secrets, but the black government (Black Projects, also known as
the Military Industrial Complex, whom appropriated approximately 3 trillion dollars to which the government could
not account for between the late 90's and early 2000), are extremely good at keeping secrets.
This Black Government does NOT need to answer to anyone, not even the president, they are kept secret by every
new president who MUST sign an executive order to keep them in hiding.

This Black Government have full access to Area 51 (the Nevada Test and Training Range) and Area S4 and many
other military installations, not only in the US, but also in many countries around the world. e.g. Pine Gap in Australia.
It seems that its their sole purpose is to obtain alien technology, either by subterfuge, downing alien craft, retrieving
crashed ships or what ever ships aliens have given to the US government.
The purpose of gaining all this tech is for weapons development mainly, but also to obtain energy systems for them
to utilise, but at the same time, give NOTHING back to humanity.
Anyone interested in this, you should get the book by Philip J Corso called, The Day After Roswell.

As for the propulsion systems of an alien craft, they utilise Anti-matter drives, which generates gravity waves, and they
move in a way that is opposite to the way conventional craft (i.e. rockets and aeroplanes travel).
These craft generate their own inner gravity field within the ship, to which is in no way affected by the gravity outside
the ship. Therefore they defy the laws of motion in regards to coming to an instantaneous full stop from a velocity of say
10,000 miles an hour, plus being able to turn 90 degrees at a pinch. If there was a rocket capable of those manoeuvre's,
all the people on board would be splattered against a wall in a puddle of mush.
There are, apparently, other types of craft that utilise magnetic fields to propel themselves, but I have very limited knowledge
on this matter.
The craft with the anti-matter drives can traverse vast distances without the need to break Einstein's general relativity laws.
The ships are able to concentrate their gravity amplifiers (there are usually 3 of these on a ship), to one point in space to which
they want to travel to, then it is as if they can pull that point in space towards them (like a rubber band), cling the ship onto
that point, and then let it snap back, thus taking the ship with it.
One thing though, depending upon the distance that the ship needs to travel, will depend upon how many jumps they need to
make. The snapping points (hop) are instantaneous, but they would need to stop for some time to recharge for the next jump.
Therefore they could not get to say, Zeta Reticuli (39.17 light  years away), without making several jumps. The amount of these
hops required per distance is unknown.
Anyone interested in this, just look up the name: Bob Lazar and be intrigued by what the guy has to say.
Bob Lazar claims to have actually worked on an alien ship, given to the government, by aliens as a gift.
His job was to back-engineer the propulsion system on the craft, to which he confirmed that it utilises
an anti-matter drive to generate the gravity waves to propel it.
He worked out at a facility called S4, which is about 12 to 15 miles south of Area 51.
He also claims that there is absolutely no alien technology or development going on at Area 51, its only at S4 where all the alien
research is performed. He says that Area 51 is solely for the development of conventional aircraft.
He also claims to have a piece of metal that cannot be found naturally in our solar system. He calls it Element 115 (its designated
name is Moscovium), to which is used as a part fuel for the alien ships. One piece about several inches high would be able to keep
the craft fueled for 30 years or more.
Please have a look at this guy, as I've found him to be credible, though there are many out there (mainly scientists), that think he's
a crackpot. Please keep an open mind.  ;)
Let us know what you think...
Regards,
Relayer

 
 
     
 

Offline TerraHertz

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I just wanted to point out if I was an Alien with FTL travel I would be quite prepared to travel thousands of light years just to dick about. I see dicking about as pretty fundamental right up there with food fire and shelter.

Agreed! You're not the only one in the universe to think that.  In fact the path to self-bootstrapping to immortal machine-intelligence, is probably only open to those who love dicking about, and are prepared to seriously commit to dicking about.

My guess is the immortal travelers are probably quite close in outlook to a bunch of Earthling biker buddies.  Spend a lot of time cruising about alone, but get together for a rowdy fireside meeting out in the wilds every now and then. For instance at some solar system with a newly developing sentient rising-tech species.  I suggested 'no formal contact' (because the outcome is boringly predictable and considered passe), but I bet they enjoy a good prank now and then. 'Moses and the burning bush' kind of thing. I can imagine Moses complaining "Hey cut it out you jerk! I've seen burning bushes before, and that's a shop. I can see the pixels and everything. Boo!"

I bet they thought making inscrutable crop circles was hilarious. Until human pranksters started copying and overdoing the things, after which continuing was just pointless.

PS. @Rick Law. You know not all hydrogen is in stars, right? There's *plenty* in the gaps between, that didn't happen to get swept into star-forming nebula yet. Fusion in controlled non-star devices is very likely easy enough once you know the trick. So, plenty of energy for a very long time.
As for expansion and heat-death, I'm not willing to bet on those 21st century human ideas to be definitely accurate. If I was already immortal, maybe I'd take the bet just on the chance of having the last laugh about a thousand billion years down the track. Never make a bet you can't collect.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 05:58:27 pm by TerraHertz »
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Offline bd139

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Spend a lot of time cruising about alone, but get together for a rowdy fireside meeting out in the wilds every now and then. For instance at some solar system with a newly developing sentient rising-tech species.

Bit of a PITA working out when to meet up when you have time dilation to contend with.

As for black budgets, most of that three trillion went on dead ends, consultants and sandwich orders I reckon (I worked in the defence sector for a bit).
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 07:47:02 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline Echo88

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Southpark-reference for 9/11:
What is better for the government: To be complete fools in the eyes of the population or to think that that the government is controlled by supreme overlords that have immeasurable power?
And to think that the Orange Supreme Overload Puppet wouldnt out the Overlords, while he couldnt even shake the hand of Merkel because he behaved like a child? Get your shit together.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Bit of a PITA working out when to meet up when you have time dilation to contend with.

So, some don't make it here in the right 100 million years, sucks for them.
But not so much, since I doubt they travel at anything like C. Doing so would really hurt, with no chance to avoid impacts with small rocks, and the resulting near-nuclear explosions of large fraction of C energy release. Also it would stand out like dogs balls, what with the bright flashes and resulting trail of altered isotope plasma. Sedate, quiet, unobtrusive travel would be _my_ choice, if I didn't care about timescales. Since, being a machine, I could adjust my perception rate to suit, or just go mostly dormant.

Meanwhile, the ones here are putting up the party decorations. Saturn's rings, Jupiter's spot, the asteroid belt (safe and covert seating), the giant Moon (ringside seating) , and so on.

Ha ha, just kidding.

Or am I?
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Offline AG6QR

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Now that same issue with your "right angle turning UFO."

To make a true right angle turn at even as slow as city-driving speed, you will need infinite energy.  First, you need absorb your forward momentum.  True right angle turns means your forward motion stops in zero distance.  That requires infinite deceleration which requires infinite energy.  Say you can do that, now you need to reach to your former forward speed but at the 90 degree angle.  From no side-way speed to former forward speed (but side-ways) immediately.  To reach a speed immediately needs infinite acceleration.  That requires infinite energy.  So total energy requires is adding that two infinities together.

In real life, even with driving, you really don't make right-angle turns.  You make small quarter circle turns.  The smaller the turn-circle radius (or the faster you turn), the higher the centripetal force (the more energy required to overcome it so as to stay on course).  For true right-angle, your turn-circle has a zero turn radius making it requiring infinite energy.
]

Energy isn't the problem here.  Infinite (or high) force doesn't imply infinite (or high) energy, unless the force is exerted through a distance.  Remember the formula for work performed is force times the distance over which it was exerted.  But in the instant right-angle turn you're describing, the force is exerted over zero distance, and thus requires zero energy.  Consider an ideal, perfectly elastic collision between a basketball and a cement court.  The ball can change direction, perhaps by 90 degrees, or even 180 degrees, with no energy input.  The kinetic energy of the ball before and after the bounce is identical, only the direction of travel has changed.  Conservation of energy applies, and to the extent that the collision was perfectly elastic, there was no energy input or output.

But just because there's not an energy problem doesn't mean there's no problem at all.  A change in direction means that there must have been a change of momentum, and conservation of momentum must apply.  In the case of the bouncing ball, the ball exchanged some momentum with the Earth, and since the Earth's mass is so much larger than the ball's mass, we can't measure any change in the Earth's velocity.  But a flying vehicle which turns would have to exchange momentum with something else, most likely air or some sort of reaction mass, such as a rocket exhaust.  That's going to present a difficulty.


Realistically, eyewitnesses at a distance can't tell whether something turned precisely and instantaneously by 90 degrees.  Even if they are credible people who are trying to tell the truth (and that's not a given, in my book), they may be mistaken.
 







Of course, just because energy isn't the problem doesn't mean
 

Offline Rick Law

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Now that same issue with your "right angle turning UFO."

To make a true right angle turn at even as slow as city-driving speed, you will need infinite energy.  First, you need absorb your forward momentum.  True right angle turns means your forward motion stops in zero distance.  That requires infinite deceleration which requires infinite energy.  Say you can do that, now you need to reach to your former forward speed but at the 90 degree angle.  From no side-way speed to former forward speed (but side-ways) immediately.  To reach a speed immediately needs infinite acceleration.  That requires infinite energy.  So total energy requires is adding that two infinities together.

In real life, even with driving, you really don't make right-angle turns.  You make small quarter circle turns.  The smaller the turn-circle radius (or the faster you turn), the higher the centripetal force (the more energy required to overcome it so as to stay on course).  For true right-angle, your turn-circle has a zero turn radius making it requiring infinite energy.
]

Energy isn't the problem here.  Infinite (or high) force doesn't imply infinite (or high) energy, unless the force is exerted through a distance.  Remember the formula for work performed is force times the distance over which it was exerted.  But in the instant right-angle turn you're describing, the force is exerted over zero distance, and thus requires zero energy.  Consider an ideal, perfectly elastic collision between a basketball and a cement court.  The ball can change direction, perhaps by 90 degrees, or even 180 degrees, with no energy input.  The kinetic energy of the ball before and after the bounce is identical, only the direction of travel has changed.  Conservation of energy applies, and to the extent that the collision was perfectly elastic, there was no energy input or output.

But just because there's not an energy problem doesn't mean there's no problem at all.  A change in direction means that there must have been a change of momentum, and conservation of momentum must apply.  In the case of the bouncing ball, the ball exchanged some momentum with the Earth, and since the Earth's mass is so much larger than the ball's mass, we can't measure any change in the Earth's velocity.  But a flying vehicle which turns would have to exchange momentum with something else, most likely air or some sort of reaction mass, such as a rocket exhaust.  That's going to present a difficulty.


Realistically, eyewitnesses at a distance can't tell whether something turned precisely and instantaneously by 90 degrees.  Even if they are credible people who are trying to tell the truth (and that's not a given, in my book), they may be mistaken.
 







Of course, just because energy isn't the problem doesn't mean


Yeah, you are right.  I stand corrected.

In my first example it was an energy example, and my mind got locked into energy and typed that at the start.  It is infinite force that you need to have instant acceleration/deceleration which I explained in the later sentences.  Error is on me.
 

Offline StillTrying

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I think the descriptions of the right angle turns and accelerations they do, are compared with what our flying machines do, and not a zero time change of direction, so about only 50g. :)

What was the Belgian(and UK) wave all about in the late 80s early 90s. I was too busy to know anything about it at the time, but studied it later. Surely 1000s including police and military weren't fooled by a rogue party balloon.

Edity. The number of witnesses seems to vary from about 2000 to about 13000 depending on where you read.
https://www.outerplaces.com/science-fiction/item/3607-revisiting-the-belgian-ufo-wave-of-1990

All +1 because I saw it myself when it/one visited the UK.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 10:19:14 am by StillTrying »
 


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