BATTERIES - where to buy them?!!!

[james_s]

If you pick up a packet of 4, 8, 10 AAA/AA etc batteries, and it weighs a 'feather' compared to 'normal',
then you can be SURE they are just rubbish, with no chemical capacity what so ever !!  :-)

Yup reminds me of the cheap C and D rechargeable batteries of the past which contained an AA battery inside.
Lateron they even filled with some kind of cement to make it less obvious.

I opened up a suspiciously crappy 18650 li-ion some time back and found a tiny pencil diameter cell sitting in a can filled with talcum powder.

[YiGiT]

Some batteries supplied with products are also suprisingly light. It always feels like half of it is made of cardboard.

Those are probably Zinc batteries as those tend to be very lightweight. I had a pack of Kodak Zinc Chloride batteries, They were lighter than alkalines but the problem is that Zinc batteries tend to leak much and when they leak, they leak very bad. They also don't last that long even if they don't leak.

[Red Squirrel]

I try to use rechargeables for everything I can. Unfortunately ni-mh have lower voltage and also very fast self discharge rate, so for a tool that you don't use that often like say, a stud finder, you probably want to just use alkaline.  That and an item that needs 3 or more is probably going to go into "low battery" mode right away as the lower voltage per cell is going to add up.   Oddly enough this could perhaps actually be a use case for batteriser.    Though modifying the device to add a dedicated boost converter after the power switch would probably be much smarter.

What I'd like to see is more devices designed around 18650s.  They are rechargeable and have low self discharge rate and high energy capacity.   I suppose you could modify a device that uses 2x alkalines to use one 18650 cell though the voltage might be a little too high depending what the device is. 

[mzzj]

I try to use rechargeables for everything I can. Unfortunately ni-mh have lower voltage and also very fast self discharge rate, so for a tool that you don't use that often like say, a stud finder, you probably want to just use alkaline. 

Goddammit, Eneloops have been around for over a decade and you still complain about self discharge rate!

1.st gen Eneloops right out of package with factory charge have shown about 60% charge left after 10 YEARS in various tests. Insanely good result and better than most alkaline batteries!

(still it's not really making sense to use NiMh eneloops in reeally low drain applications, at some point the cell is going to die of old age even if its charged only once per 5 years)

[IanB]

I try to use rechargeables for everything I can. Unfortunately ni-mh have lower voltage and also very fast self discharge rate, so for a tool that you don't use that often like say, a stud finder, you probably want to just use alkaline.

Eh? You've never heard of Eneloops after all this time? I can put charged Eneloops in a device, put it away for five years, and when I pick it up again it will work fine.

That and an item that needs 3 or more is probably going to go into "low battery" mode right away as the lower voltage per cell is going to add up.   Oddly enough this could perhaps actually be a use case for batteriser.    Though modifying the device to add a dedicated boost converter after the power switch would probably be much smarter.

This is not a problem I have encountered. Remember that alkaline batteries have a discharge curve from 1.5 V down to 0.9 V, so for half their lifetime they are below the 1.2 V of NiMH. I have put Eneloops in cameras, electric toothbrushes, portable soldering irons, kitchen scales, electric pencil sharpeners, flashlights and anything else that takes AA cells. All have worked fine. High power devices work much better than they do with alkalines.

[Richard Crowley]

I have put Eneloops in cameras, electric toothbrushes, portable soldering irons, kitchen scales, electric pencil sharpeners, flashlights and anything else that takes AA cells. All have worked fine. High power devices work much better than they do with alkalines.

With the possible exception of the kitchen scales, those are all "dumb" loads. They are not particularly sensitive to low-end drop-out voltage.

In the audio production world, it is widely considered that ordinary rechargeable AA cells have extremely short operating times in wireless microphone transmitters ("belt packs") Because many ordinary rechargeable cells START out at very close to the lower-limit of what the circuit needs to operate. Eneloops have a reputation for slightly better performance, but still not as good as ordinary 1.5V primary cells.

But as products improve, they seem to be designing newer gadgets that are tolerant of the lower voltages of rechargeable cells.
(Or they are being designed with built-in LiPo batteries that arerechargeable from 5V USB.)

[malagas_on_fire]

The only batteries that i avoid rechargeable are the 9V because their usability is not great 8.4v to 7.54v in multimeter and takes a lot to recharge.

For some clamp meters it is advised to use a high drain battery, because of the hall sensor.

[IanB]

In the audio production world, it is widely considered that ordinary rechargeable AA cells have extremely short operating times in wireless microphone transmitters ("belt packs") Because many ordinary rechargeable cells START out at very close to the lower-limit of what the circuit needs to operate. Eneloops have a reputation for slightly better performance, but still not as good as ordinary 1.5V primary cells.

In this world, isn't it the case that they put in fresh cells at the start of every performance, and then discard the partially used cells at the end? Apart from being very wasteful, this does also encourage the transmitter designers to expect high cell voltages. Why design down to the tail end at 1 V or so if that scenario will never be encountered?

[james_s]

I hear people talk about zinc chloride cells being leaky but these days it's the alkaline cells I see leaking. I've had to spend a lot of time cleaning up stuff damaged by leaky alkaline cells, often now when the batteries are not even dead yet. It's the reason I've switched to Eneloops even in low drain applications, I've never had one leak.

[mzzj]

In the audio production world, it is widely considered that ordinary rechargeable AA cells have extremely short operating times in wireless microphone transmitters ("belt packs") Because many ordinary rechargeable cells START out at very close to the lower-limit of what the circuit needs to operate. Eneloops have a reputation for slightly better performance, but still not as good as ordinary 1.5V primary cells.

For a crappy designs like that NiZn rechargeables or lithium-iron primary batteries should work well. (unless the crappy design is overly sensitive about high voltage too (NiZn and Li-Fe are around 1.6-1.8 v when full)
Otherwise Nimh has lot more usable capacity than alkaline even at moderate currents. If the low limit is set at ridicuously high at 1.38v the "Duracel ultra power alkaline" is on par with  Ikea "eneloop" and you get  only  0.1Ah or about 5% of capacity from either of them.
If the low voltage limit would be set at 1.20v you get 0.5Ah out of alkaline and 2.1Ah out of "ikea nimh"

Energizer ultimate lithium stomps them all in voltage sensitive applications, you get 1.5Ah or 15 times more amp-hours at 1.38v vs Duracell ultra power alkaline.
https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php

[Richard Crowley]

In this world, isn't it the case that they put in fresh cells at the start of every performance, and then discard the partially used cells at the end? Apart from being very wasteful,..

Yes, yes, and yes.  But we never seem to have a good solution even after all these years.

this does also encourage the transmitter designers to expect high cell voltages. Why design down to the tail end at 1 V or so if that scenario will never be encountered?

Indeed. But modern products seem to be going for built-in LiPo packs, rechargeable from USB 5V.  (e.g. RodeLink, et.al.)
While that seems like a nice solution in terms of eliminating disposal of primary cells, many of us don't like the concept of batteries that are not field swapable.
If you need a running time longer than the built-in LiPo pack provides, you are screwed because you can't just pop out the batteries (whether primary or rechargeable) and put in a fresh set and get on with it.  You can't stop a live show (or an expensive production) and tell everyone to chill while your wireless transmitter recharges.   

[james_s]

In this world, isn't it the case that they put in fresh cells at the start of every performance, and then discard the partially used cells at the end? Apart from being very wasteful,..

Yes, yes, and yes.  But we never seem to have a good solution even after all these years.

this does also encourage the transmitter designers to expect high cell voltages. Why design down to the tail end at 1 V or so if that scenario will never be encountered?

Indeed. But modern products seem to be going for built-in LiPo packs, rechargeable from USB 5V.  (e.g. RodeLink, et.al.)
While that seems like a nice solution in terms of eliminating disposal  of primary cells, many of us don't like the concept of batteries that are not field swapable.
If you need a running time longer than the built-in LiPo pack provides, you are screwed because you can't just pop out the batteries (whether primary or rechargeable) and put in a fresh set and get on with it.  You can't stop a live show (or an expensive production) and tell everyone to chill while your wireless transmitter recharges.   

This problem was solved ages ago with mobile phones. They should just use an off the shelf mobile phone battery.

[Richard Crowley]

This problem was solved ages ago with mobile phones. They should just use an off the shelf mobile phone battery.

Which one would you suggest?  There have been literally HUNDREDS of DIFFERENT mobile phone batteries just in the last 5 years.
They come and go year by year.  Nobody would design an expensive professional-grade product using such an ephemeral source of batteries.
In the life span of a single product, you could go through half a dozen EOL cycles for any mobile phone battery you would care to select.

[Mr. Scram]

Which one would you suggest?  There have been literally HUNDREDS of DIFFERENT mobile phone batteries just in the last 5 years.
They come and go year by year.  Nobody would design an expensive professional-grade product using such an ephemeral source of batteries.
In the life span of a single product, you could go through half a dozen EOL cycles for any mobile phone battery you would care to select.

There are a number of models that are popular for things like these. There are a few Nokia models that have been in use for the better part of two decades and which are manufactured by third parties too. The same has happened to certain types of camera battery packs. People sometimes create their own standards.

[james_s]

This problem was solved ages ago with mobile phones. They should just use an off the shelf mobile phone battery.

Which one would you suggest?  There have been literally HUNDREDS of DIFFERENT mobile phone batteries just in the last 5 years.
They come and go year by year.  Nobody would design an expensive professional-grade product using such an ephemeral source of batteries.
In the life span of a single product, you could go through half a dozen EOL cycles for any mobile phone battery you would care to select.

A company designing a product around a battery could contract to have as many made as they wanted. They don't have to rely on batteries made for a specific phone. They could pick a design they like and stick to it, or make their own similar type. I was thinking more along the lines of off the shelf technology rather than a specific model of battery. Phone and camera batteries are pretty much all the same basic design.

[Red Squirrel]

I try to use rechargeables for everything I can. Unfortunately ni-mh have lower voltage and also very fast self discharge rate, so for a tool that you don't use that often like say, a stud finder, you probably want to just use alkaline.

Eh? You've never heard of Eneloops after all this time? I can put charged Eneloops in a device, put it away for five years, and when I pick it up again it will work fine.

Never tried them are they really THAT good?  I figured the self discharge was a limitation of the chemistry and not really brand dependent.

[retiredcaps]

Never tried them are they really THAT good?  I figured the self discharge was a limitation of the chemistry and not really brand dependent.

Yes, they are that good.  See

https://main.panasonic-eneloop.eu/en/eneloop-self-discharge

[Richard Crowley]

A company designing a product around a battery could contract to have as many made as they wanted. They don't have to rely on batteries made for a specific phone. They could pick a design they like and stick to it, or make their own similar type. I was thinking more along the lines of off the shelf technology rather than a specific model of battery. Phone and camera batteries are pretty much all the same basic design.

There are 10 million cell phones sold for every wireless microphone sold. The market volume is not even wildly comparable.
Furthermore wireless microphones need at least an order of magnitude more power than you can get from any cell phone battery.
Cell phones transmit tiny bursts of data measured in milliseconds.  Wireless mic transmitters transmit continuously for hours at a time.
Wireless mic batteries wouldn't fit inside round, hand-held microphone cases.
These would seem to be some of the reasons no wireless mic manufacturers have ever used cell phone batteries.

IMHO, it is also highly desirable to be able to use primary cells when rechargeable cells can't be recharged.
I have been on more than one tour in the 3rd world where there was no opportunity to recharge cells for days at a time.

Ideally, designers will make future products that use replaceable AA-form cells, but will tolerate lower voltages from rechargeable chemistry.

[IanB]

Never tried them are they really THAT good?  I figured the self discharge was a limitation of the chemistry and not really brand dependent.

Well, yes, they are that good.

When Eneloops came on the market they rendered old technology cells almost obsolete overnight and caused every other manufacturer to bring out their own line of low self-discharge cells. But none of the others are quite as good as Eneloops.

[mzzj]

A company designing a product around a battery could contract to have as many made as they wanted. They don't have to rely on batteries made for a specific phone. They could pick a design they like and stick to it, or make their own similar type. I was thinking more along the lines of off the shelf technology rather than a specific model of battery. Phone and camera batteries are pretty much all the same basic design.

There are 10 million cell phones sold for every wireless microphone sold. The market volume is not even wildly comparable.
Furthermore wireless microphones need at least an order of magnitude more power than you can get from any cell phone battery.
Cell phones transmit tiny bursts of data measured in milliseconds.  Wireless mic transmitters transmit continuously for hours at a time.
Wireless mic batteries wouldn't fit inside round, hand-held microphone cases.
These would seem to be some of the reasons no wireless mic manufacturers have ever used cell phone batteries.

IMHO, it is also highly desirable to be able to use primary cells when rechargeable cells can't be recharged.
I have been on more than one tour in the 3rd world where there was no opportunity to recharge cells for days at a time.

Ideally, designers will make future products that use replaceable AA-form cells, but will tolerate lower voltages from rechargeable chemistry.

Smart phone batteries have plenty of capacity and power but yeah, even less suited form factor for handhelds.. maybe perfect for "backpacks"
(and they are typically not plug-and-play replaceable models)

18650 or 26650 size Li-ion cell could be pretty good size for handheld.

There is still one issue if using NiMh or whatever battery for wireless mics: keeping track of which cells are charged, empty or gone bad. Very little problems and suprises if you pop in fresh alkalines before every use.
 

[Kjelt]

Well, yes, they are that good.
When Eneloops came on the market they rendered old technology cells almost obsolete overnight and caused every other manufacturer to bring out their own line of low self-discharge cells. But none of the others are quite as good as Eneloops. 

Indeed before the Eneloops the capacity was the only selling point reaching 3000mAh for an AA cell IIRC.
That was only interesting for the high power users like racing cars etc. For the other applications that could last one year with a alkaline cell what good is your 3000mAh if after four months the cell is empty from self discharge. There the Eneloops scored and for those that like to have charged cells laying on the shelf in case of need. I personally use Eneloops in my Fluke multimeter for instance , just charge them once a year is enough to keep on going.

[drussell]

Never tried them are they really THAT good?  I figured the self discharge was a limitation of the chemistry and not really brand dependent.

They are pretty good for NiMH.  I think the specification is something like 85% capacity after one year from the last charge date.  Nowhere near as good as an alkaline (which is still at about 85% after 10 years from new), but pretty darn good for a rechargeable.

[james_s]

There are 10 million cell phones sold for every wireless microphone sold. The market volume is not even wildly comparable.
Furthermore wireless microphones need at least an order of magnitude more power than you can get from any cell phone battery.
Cell phones transmit tiny bursts of data measured in milliseconds.  Wireless mic transmitters transmit continuously for hours at a time.
Wireless mic batteries wouldn't fit inside round, hand-held microphone cases.
These would seem to be some of the reasons no wireless mic manufacturers have ever used cell phone batteries.

IMHO, it is also highly desirable to be able to use primary cells when rechargeable cells can't be recharged.
I have been on more than one tour in the 3rd world where there was no opportunity to recharge cells for days at a time.

Ideally, designers will make future products that use replaceable AA-form cells, but will tolerate lower voltages from rechargeable chemistry.

The microphones in question operate for hours from an ordinary 9V alkaline battery, and someone already said the newest ones have a built in Li battery, I'm quite certain that a small phone/camera type prismatic LiPo would work just fine. As someone else said, there are some types that have been in steady production for decades and aftermarket compatible batteries have been made for all manner of things and cost peanuts, it obviously is not hard to get that style battery made in any quantity you like. If the built in prismatic cell works fine then obviously a removable one would also work fine. If they can get the properly sized ones to build in, then obviously they could get the properly sized ones designed as a removable pack. If phones and digital cameras can work with batteries like this then wireless mics can work with batteries like this. If I can buy a new battery for a 15 year old digital camera for <$5 from China then I could buy a new battery for a popular wireless mic.

[Kjelt]

Never tried them are they really THAT good?  I figured the self discharge was a limitation of the chemistry and not really brand dependent.

They are pretty good for NiMH.  I think the specification is something like 85% capacity after one year from the last charge date.  Nowhere near as good as an alkaline (which is still at about 85% after 10 years from new), but pretty darn good for a rechargeable.

Lithium are ten years.
I had alkalines leak in their seal after two/three years 

[rdl]

I bought a new wireless mouse a couple of weeks ago. It came with two Duracell batteries that went directly into the trash without ever being unwrapped. That's how much I like Duracell.