Beginners, stay away from jobs in the electronic business,

[AndyC_772]

I loathe being self employed. I'd take a steady paycheck and the ability to let someone else deal with all the boring business stuff over the added flexibility any day. I've done the self employed thing before and didn't like it at all.

Sorry to hear that; for me, it was the best career decision I've ever made.

The opportunity to do it for a couple of days / week came up about six years ago, and it soon grew to the point where 'my' work was taking up as much time, and paying much better, than my day job. So I quit.

Now I spend ~75% of my working time actually doing electronics or software. The rest is 'business stuff'... taxes, admin, keeping the lab in good order, that kind of thing. Nothing I really resent as a waste of time.

I still have a boss, of course. Several. They're called 'customers', and that means the relationship is different.

If you want me to design a thing, I'll do the engineering, deliver a working prototype, CAD data, manuals and so on, and send you an invoice.

If you then need technical support, or an analysis of why one isn't working, or an update, then that's no problem. Once again, I'll do the work, and I'll charge by the hour for my time.

If you want me to sit in meetings, that's fine too, but you've no doubt already seen the pattern emerging here.

The upshot is that even though I now have the overheads of running my own company - several, in fact - I still spend a lot less time on non-engineering activities than I did when I was a full time employee.

There are downsides, of course. I have no regular, predictable income, which might be a problem for some.

There's quite a big jump from doing 95% of the technical work yourself, and being able to ask colleagues for help on the other 5%, to having to do 100% of it yourself. Be prepared to lose a lot of time learning stuff for yourself that a co-worker could probably show you (or do for you) in five minutes.

[German_EE]

1) Your manager gives you a task to design and built a widget.

2) You research the chips and design the widget using parts from (say) Digikey because they have a better range of devices. You prepare the BOM and submit it to your manager.

3) Your manager tells you not to use Digikey because  of somereasonorother, use Element 14 instead.

4) Because one particular chip in your design isn't available from Element 14 you redesign and submit a second BOM which is 80% more expensive and uses 20% more parts.

5) Your manager asks why the widget doesn't do 'X' even though 'X' wasn't in the original specification. A possible requirement to do 'X' was however discussed in a meeting six weeks ago and no decision was taken. You redesign again so that your widget can do 'X' as well as 'A' and 'B' then submit a third BOM.

6) The MD asks if the widget can be upgraded to do task 'A' but at three times the current, you research this and find out that it will double the cost and triple the size of the unit, the idea is quietly forgotten.

7) Your parts are ordered and arrive, the widget is built and used twice before it's put in a cupboard and forgotten about. Six months later the MD discovers the widget and fires you because you didn't carry out his wishes of tripling the current.

The Chinese discover the design for your widget when they review the PCB files. They then make half a million of them and sell them on Alibaba at 20% of the cost of your device.

[james_s]

Sorry to hear that; for me, it was the best career decision I've ever made.

The opportunity to do it for a couple of days / week came up about six years ago, and it soon grew to the point where 'my' work was taking up as much time, and paying much better, than my day job. So I quit.

Now I spend ~75% of my working time actually doing electronics or software. The rest is 'business stuff'... taxes, admin, keeping the lab in good order, that kind of thing. Nothing I really resent as a waste of time.

I still have a boss, of course. Several. They're called 'customers', and that means the relationship is different.

If you want me to design a thing, I'll do the engineering, deliver a working prototype, CAD data, manuals and so on, and send you an invoice.

If you then need technical support, or an analysis of why one isn't working, or an update, then that's no problem. Once again, I'll do the work, and I'll charge by the hour for my time.

If you want me to sit in meetings, that's fine too, but you've no doubt already seen the pattern emerging here.

The upshot is that even though I now have the overheads of running my own company - several, in fact - I still spend a lot less time on non-engineering activities than I did when I was a full time employee.

There are downsides, of course. I have no regular, predictable income, which might be a problem for some.

There's quite a big jump from doing 95% of the technical work yourself, and being able to ask colleagues for help on the other 5%, to having to do 100% of it yourself. Be prepared to lose a lot of time learning stuff for yourself that a co-worker could probably show you (or do for you) in five minutes.

I'm not saying self employment isn't for anybody, my point is simply that it's not for everybody. Predictable steady income is a *huge* benefit to me, I don't have to think about money generally, I don't have to track my spending and income in detail, I simply spend less than I earn and it all works out. Also being in the UK you have one substantial advantage over me, universal healthcare. I don't want to turn this into a political debate but as with most people in the US I get my health insurance through my employer. Getting insurance as an individual is hugely expensive, like $500/month for a crappy high deductible plan that only covers me and is effectively only catastrophic coverage and going up from there and the whole system is is a byzantine nightmare. When it comes down to it, I have my hobbies for enjoyment and for work I personally like to go to work, complete the tasks I'm asked to do, collect a paycheck for my efforts and go home to do the stuff I really want to do. I don't have to interact with customers, I don't have to make big decisions, I don't have to think about taxes or roadmaps, facilities, finances, legal issues or any of that stuff, I'm just given a job to do and I do it.

[SiliconWizard]

1) Your manager gives you a task to design and built a widget.
(...)
The Chinese discover the design for your widget when they review the PCB files. They then make half a million of them and sell them on Alibaba at 20% of the cost of your device.

Excellent! 

[floobydust]

Self-employed as an engineering consultant is different than being on the corporate treadmill.

On the corporate treadmill, for some reason management beats their staff for not performing while a consultant is treated with more respect and as an expert. They can almost be mercenaries and avoid a corporation's dysfunction to work on something.

I negotiate with contractors and consultants for either a fixed-sum or fixed-time on projects, with penalties if these are not met. Otherwise, they have no incentive to finish on any time schedule or dollar amount and just loaf along burning up money.

[AndyC_772]

It's perfectly reasonable to ask for fixed quotes and/or time scales, though I would caution that it works both ways.

If you require a fixed price, then the specification needs to be fixed as well.

Too many times I've quoted for a job, only to hear "can you just make it do...?" once the price and lead time have already been agreed. Saying 'no' at this point never goes down well, so there's a problem.

Normally I address this by factoring in something to cover "can you just?" into a quote, then invoicing a bit less at the end if the job has gone smoothly and the spec hasn't been changed.

In general, my customers know me and normally ask for an estimate; I charge for time and materials, and provided the costs work out more or less as expected (averaged over a number of jobs), everyone's happy.

[rstofer]

Why is it that some of the posters above expect to actually like their job?  If it was fun, they wouldn't have to pay you to do it!

And the Golden Rule is:  "He who pays, says!".  Do what you're told and keep getting a check.  Pretty simple concept, really.

Make sure you get into a high paying job whether you like it or not.  That way you will be able to afford the better things in life.  Perhaps a home (not in Silicon Valley), maybe a boat (spend 20 years sailing San Francisco Bay) and money to put in your 401(k).  Maybe even enough for some other hobbies.  Just don't confuse your real life with your job.

Always remember, "Jobs come and jobs go.  Some last longer than others!".

[vk6zgo]

Why is it that some of the posters above expect to actually like their job?  If it was fun, they wouldn't have to pay you to do it!

Fun?
You can have fun even in a stupid job, but most of us do appreciate simple respect for our abilities more.

And the Golden Rule is:  "He who pays, says!".  Do what you're told and keep getting a check.  Pretty simple concept, really.

This is pretty good advice for a "callow youth" just starting in their first job, but for most of those posting here, the jobs they are complaining about "ain't their first rodeo!"

If you find yourself in a job where the expertise you were hired for is ignored, people with neither experience nor knowledge dismiss suggestions which are based on hard earned experience in real companies, & you see ridiculously dysfunctional practices, it's very hard just to "pull your head in", "knuckle to your betters" & get on with the job.

In the one I was bitching about, I became "an enemy of the people" because I kept telling them about their various stuff ups.
Eventually they gave me the sack! 
I was quite happy to go, but they said "Can you stay on for a while, till we get a replacement?"
Silly buggers couldn't even do that properly, so I hung on another two years till I couldn't stand it anymore, & "pulled the plug" properly.

"Why didn't I go sooner?
Inertia, plus, let's face it, when you are approaching retirement age, there are not many "techs" jobs around, even lousy ones like that one.

Make sure you get into a high paying job whether you like it or not.  That way you will be able to afford the better things in life.  Perhaps a home (not in Silicon Valley), maybe a boat (spend 20 years sailing San Francisco Bay) and money to put in your 401(k).  Maybe even enough for some other hobbies.  Just don't confuse your real life with your job.

Always remember, "Jobs come and jobs go.  Some last longer than others!".

That would be nice

I had a fairly high paying job once, but non-technical management decided a "restructure" would be a great idea, so my staff position disappeared, but I can't say they didn't "give me something in return".
I found myself driving hundreds of miles a week, fixing remote sites for less money, so I "pulled the plug", & went to work at a Commercial TV Station.

They paid less, but didn't expect the world-------that was good for ten years, until they caught the
"restructure" disease, too!

[ebastler]

When I started my career in the electronics business about 25 years ago, [...]
Today, I have a job in a larger company [...]

Could it be that the changes you are describing are not an effect of "now vs. 25 years ago", but of "small company vs. large company environment"?
I recommend looking for a small company, maybe a startup, if you want to evade much of the bureaucracy.

[Red Squirrel]

I find this advice applies for almost any hobby really.  When you do it as a job it starts to not be fun anymore - at least on the job, the stuff you do at home may still remain fun.  For example I was a lot "into computers" so naturally I wanted to be in IT, and do sysadmin type stuff.  So I took computer science, and eventually landed a full time job at a help desk and moved up to server admin for a hospital for same company as a contractor. 

I quickly learned that the job was like 80% politics and 20% actual technical.  There was constant red tape with everything. And simple things were turned into an outrage.  So many meetings over the stupidest stuff.  Also did not help that the IT manager at that particular place was an asshole.   I saw a job opening for NOC within my company and moved there.  Best decision I ever made.  Not exactly the line of work I anticipated myself doing, but it's a nice cushy job and pays well and has great hours, as it's shift work.  I'd hate going back to a 8x5 grind again. 2 day weekends are too short. Rather work a bunch of 12h shifts and get more time off.

Oddly over the years I've kinda spread myself too thin as far as hobbies so have not really done any serious projects in a while.  Like I need to actually pickup something and stick to it. Electronics has always interested me but can't say I've gotten super deep into it.  One project I do want to start on eventually is kinda going to tie in all the stuff I know including what I do at my current job.  I want to make a home automation/monitoring system.  I'm sure there's already stuff like that which exists but still want to roll my own.  I probably won't sell it - too much politics (compliance, copyright etc) but I'll probably just open source the software etc.

[capt bullshot]

Thanks to all you guys!
Most of the things you mentioned I've been thinking of more or less before, and came to similar conclusions. E.g. to me, beeing self-employed isn't the thing I want to do, because I don't sell myself well enough. I've got experience in small companies and larger ones (from 5 to 500 employees, depending on how they were counted, up to 10000), and I've learned the differences between small and large enterprises.
Anyway, there is a change over time that small companies cannot deny, regulations and standards get more and more complex and demanding, that is the reason why larger companies have more people specialised in conformance and standards that some small companies cannot afford at all. In the 90's a small company could get away with vastly ignoring standards and regulations, today the rules are somewhat different. So for a small company it'd be rather difficult to design and sell a hardware product. Things are different with software and support, so changing from HW to SW is also one of my thoughts. Even in the largeish company I'm working now, the SW guys appear to have to cope with way less bureaucracy and paperwork like us HW guys.

[Mr. Scram]

Why is it that some of the posters above expect to actually like their job?  If it was fun, they wouldn't have to pay you to do it!

And the Golden Rule is:  "He who pays, says!".  Do what you're told and keep getting a check.  Pretty simple concept, really.

Make sure you get into a high paying job whether you like it or not.  That way you will be able to afford the better things in life.  Perhaps a home (not in Silicon Valley), maybe a boat (spend 20 years sailing San Francisco Bay) and money to put in your 401(k).  Maybe even enough for some other hobbies.  Just don't confuse your real life with your job.

Always remember, "Jobs come and jobs go.  Some last longer than others!".

Hell no. Life's too short to be doing something which doesn't make you intrinsicly happy in some way. No amount of money can compensate the lack of fun or fulfilment. They're not mutually exclusive either. If you have a good head on your shoulders and have the right attitude, you can have fun while also earning a more than adequate paycheck.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes you have to do what you have to do to make ends meet. Sometimes it just isn't fun. That's part of the game. But just looking at it as a financial transaction doesn't make sense for something which dominates your waking hours by typically a huge margin. If you're only enjoying the few hours you have for and to yourself you're wasting most of your life.

[SiliconWizard]

Even in the largeish company I'm working now, the SW guys appear to have to cope with way less bureaucracy and paperwork like us HW guys.

Don't get your hopes up too high on that one though. It will change. In some regulated fields, the amount of paperwork needed for SW is already larger than for HW...

[james_s]

I've enjoyed most of the jobs I've had, much of the time. There have been ups and downs in all of them and one I stayed in much longer than I should have because I was no longer enjoying it but overall I would not want to work a job I didn't like. I don't expect it to be fun all the time, nor is it as enjoyable as goofing around on my own pet projects and doing whatever I please but as someone else said, life is far too short to spend most of it slaving a way in a job I hate just to have more money. I'd gladly take a smaller paycheck doing something I enjoy over a huge paycheck in a stressful job I hate any day of the week. I value my day to day happiness far more than I value money, far too many people spend the bulk of their healthy days in the miserable quest to acquire greater wealth.

[coppercone2]

[xaxaxa]

The Chinese discover the design for your widget when they review the PCB files. They then make half a million of them and sell them on Alibaba at 20% of the cost of your device.

lol @ the well-placed emoji

[perieanuo]

at least if you're interested in actual electronics and development.

There's a simple reason for this advice:
Nowadays, this job is all about (in descending order of importance) business, money, bureaucracy, policies, compliance, standards, ..., customer, knowledge, skills, electronics.

When I started my career in the electronics business about 25 years ago..m

Totally agree after 22 years experience.
Now, you have to produce some shitty project with 25 cents budget and to respect EMI and CE and tons of requirements EXCEPT solid state,reliable and well done.
All my attempts to bring quality to the product and raising the company level was rejected and brought me the image of a person who talks too much.
I decided this months to change domain, use electronics as hobby and let the amateurs to continue the work.
My last manager told me youd don't need to know electronics to manage the research and development line of work.It was just proud it came from Normandy.For what I notice, stupid people came from every part of this planet...
Best regards,pierre


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[schmitt trigger]

I also would make the distinction between private-held and public-held companies.

Public-held companies are all about stock price....an Economics professor of mine actually theorizes that whatever companies do, whether is selling burgers, making cars or transporting people with an airplane, this product or service is only the means to an end.

And the end is the stock price.

Stock price plummets? The CEO and some board member's will get sacked. Not before inflicting lots of pain on their underlings.

[perieanuo]

That has been my experience in software too, I think it's just corporate life. At a previous job they talked a lot about how agile isn't about process and tools and yet day to day life at the office was almost entirely about process and tools. Didn't matter if what we were doing made sense as long as we went through all the motions and used all the tools they had decided we would use.

Not really.I saw it in 4 persons company and in 49 employees company too...4 employees me included, one was accountant...


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[tom66]

I have never had the problems described.

My current employer is very laid back,  eager to invest in money and equipment well needed,  we work a four-day week,  they pay for all off-site expenses,  and the job is rewarding.  I've been working on one product for my whole time here, and my needs have been met at every step. 

The only complaint I would have is that the salary is a bit low,  but then again I'm still relatively green as an engineer.  I've already negotiated one pay rise,  I'd expect another in the near future, but not holding my breath.

[R005T3r]

And with the hyper connected, globalized economy, you are expected to be available 24/7.

Right now, as I type this, I’m preparing for a meeting with our Chinese factory, and it will last until midnight.

True. Being into automation you are expected to travel the 7 seas.
Fortunately, you can meet and know a lot of people.... And if you are good at your job the possibilities of career and changing country and maintaining your job are increased.
This may be a blessing or may be a curse depending what you plan to do in life, however, you cannot expect to have a "regular job" anyway, otherwise you will end up in a factory (if you are lucky).

[rstofer]

I also would make the distinction between private-held and public-held companies.

Public-held companies are all about stock price....an Economics professor of mine actually theorizes that whatever companies do, whether is selling burgers, making cars or transporting people with an airplane, this product or service is only the means to an end.

And the end is the stock price.

Stock price plummets? The CEO and some board member's will get sacked. Not before inflicting lots of pain on their underlings.

As a stockholder, the guy who ultimately risks his own money to fund the company, I expect no less.  If my investment doesn't grow with one company, I will move it to another.

[ebastler]

My current employer is very laid back,  eager to invest in money and equipment well needed,  we work a four-day week,  they pay for all off-site expenses,  and the job is rewarding.  I've been working on one product for my whole time here, and my needs have been met at every step. 

The only complaint I would have is that the salary is a bit low,  but then again I'm still relatively green as an engineer.  I've already negotiated one pay rise,  I'd expect another in the near future, but not holding my breath.

Is your "current location" indeed still the University of Leeds, as your profile suggests?

[tom66]

My current employer is very laid back,  eager to invest in money and equipment well needed,  we work a four-day week,  they pay for all off-site expenses,  and the job is rewarding.  I've been working on one product for my whole time here, and my needs have been met at every step. 

The only complaint I would have is that the salary is a bit low,  but then again I'm still relatively green as an engineer.  I've already negotiated one pay rise,  I'd expect another in the near future, but not holding my breath.

Is your "current location" indeed still the University of Leeds, as your profile suggests?

No; I've forgotten to update that,  but I'm not far away from that (I don't work for a university, just a small private company, turnover ~£3m/year.)

[SiliconWizard]

Yep, the rat race.

Any salaried job is subject to that.
You could also say that self-employed people are their own slaves somehow (although they are also often their clients' slaves). But at least you can say no or even "fuck off" to yourself without necessarily feeling the need to fire yourself.