Author Topic: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?  (Read 18347 times)

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Offline LabSpokane

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2015, 03:51:58 am »
Rather than playing at showing how smart we are by shooting ideas in the head, lets try another game and ask: under what conditions could this practical and economically viable? Those who like to shit on things can still play at this new game. All you have to do is start with an obvious flaw, and then dig deeper.

You have apparently missed out on many decades of wind turbine development. There is very little that has been left untested.  You are also ignoring Occam's Razor.  Most of all, you are ignoring the fundamental physics of capturing power from the wind.  Ian already posted the equation for your reference.  Call it "shitting" if you want, but the physics are the physics.  The power generated by a wind turbine is proportional to the swept area times the square of the wind speed.  Period.  This device's area of intercept isn't 10% of a conventional turbine.  There is your fundamental flaw. 

The the P ~ AxV^2 issue applies to all wind energy collection devices - not just HAWT.  To capture 1MW of mechanical energy, one needs to intercept at least 1MW worth of  wind.  Then there's the little matter of converting mechanical energy into electrical power.  Rotating generators are OUTSTANDINGLY efficient.  Efficiencies are easily over 95%.  Big generators of several hundred MWe are approaching 99% efficiency.  Good luck beating that with some type of linear generator.  They've used these "linear" types of generators with numerous tide power projects - every one of which has tanked. 

This contraption completely flunks the sniff test.  No one is obligated to investigate any thing more.  It is solely the proposer's responsibility to present scientific evidence in the form of literature and data.  Then they must demonstrate this device can do what it claims and present the device for independent verification.  That does not require crowd funding.  They could build a test apparatus out of plywood and box fans.  The power generation apparatus is equally trivial.  It is of little mystery to me why none of this data is being presented and it is not being developed via conventional channels:  because it likely is a joke.  But with a couple million in crowd funding from the unwitting and unwary, it can be a nice make-work project for a couple of years until the inevitable failure.  Then the usual suspects move on to another scheme ...err... invention ... and on to other marks ...I meant... "investors." 

Everyone of these schemes takes capital that could be used for good works in the field of renewable energy.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 04:09:00 am by LabSpokane »
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2015, 05:34:20 am »
I wish them luck with their giant, wiggling dildo farms.   :-DD

 

Offline mzzj

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2015, 05:54:53 am »
If they're using a form of linear generator like they describe, they won't have the advantages that traditional wind turbines have with their gearboxes, which is the frequency matching using a variable gearbox, so the turbine can be connected directly to the AC output and generate 50Hz AC. I guess they plan to generate DC, then invert it into AC at some central point. So there's another loss.

But yea, when you see such a supposedly world-changing idea funded by crowd funding you start to have doubts.
Traditional wind turbines don't control speed by gearbox. Gearbox is to get higher rpm's for the generator so that you can use smaller and cheaper generator.  Direct drive wind turbines  wont need the gearbox but the generator is bigger and more costly, often using  expensive and un-ecological  rare earth neodymium magnets.

Othervise AFAIK you are right in that linear generators cant be directly connected to AC grid. I am not sure if that is any problem, direct connection with wind turbines is not without problems either and if I remember correctly most of the new wind turbines are variable speed electric frequency converter types.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2015, 06:25:30 am »
I wish them luck with their giant, wiggling dildo farms.   :-DD

There is probably some serious cash to be made, unique tourist attraction.


So  I have read the thread, given a choice I'd go for blades. The ability to rotate is just so useful.

I really hate when people put out ideas without real numbers to back them up.
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2015, 09:20:43 am »
As usual everyone missed the point.


Soo glad our moral superior is here,
with his daily in-situ improvisation of his personal "point"
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline hamster_nz

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2015, 10:32:04 am »
As usual everyone missed the point.

These don't compete with turbines. They are for installation in places where you can't put a turbine.

And where would that be? To get much wind you need to be in an exposed open space, with a strong consistent prevailing wind. No point putting these in the bottom of a sheltered valley or in the doldrums. There are already large turbines in Antarctica - see http://www.anta.canterbury.ac.nz/documents/PCAS_12/Windmills%20.pdf - and any wind turbine won't be of any use on the moon. :)

But I think everybody is busy wondering if this is a "a suitcase, but with wheels on it!" sort of solution. If it truly is such a superior idea/implementation, why the heck did they take so long to be invented? What is the enabling technology that makes this practical today but it wasn't 10 years (or 50 years) ago...

Gaze not into the abyss, lest you become recognized as an abyss domain expert, and they expect you keep gazing into the damn thing.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2015, 01:29:09 pm »
Lets just cut to the chase and make a vortex roadway. Why the hell not?
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2015, 02:12:23 pm »
Something else just occurred to me.  This thing oscillates...it's going to have a natural frequency.  In other words, it will only work at certain wind speeds.  :::sigh:::

 

Offline Asmyldof

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2015, 11:50:30 pm »
I am absolutely looking forward to these things being built 80m high, weighing in at tons and then:
  • Vibrating certain parts of the surrounding landscape into a more compact form than naturally intended.
  • Fatigueing out and toppling over.
And loads of crowd-funders finding out why the million-dollar funding houses and investors quickly passed on a nice slidey-swooshy website with little text and exactly no usable information.

Assuming they weren't sold to a poor farmer as a good way to earn extra cash, to find his cattle with fibration-broken-legs a week later. (Or a bad case of Art-Deco-Pole-Squishing a couple of months later)
If it's a puzzle, I want to solve it.
If it's a problem, I need to solve it.
If it's an equation... mjeh, I've got Matlab
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(not really though, Matlab annoys me).
 

Online ajb

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2015, 05:33:33 am »
This article has some decent commentary and the included videos offer a few interesting tidbits:

http://www.kcet.org/news/redefine/rewire/commentary/you-should-probably-stay-skeptical-about-this-bladeless-wind-turbine.html

They're claiming to be able to capture 40% of the intercepted wind energy (Betz limit, which is the theoretical max, is 59%), but no mention of the effective size of the intercepted area or what their conversion efficiency is.  Conventional turbines, per Wikipedia, have an end-to-end efficiency of 44-47%.  Still no details on the mechanics of the generator, although apparently they are or were working on improved piezo materials as an alternative to the magnets.
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2015, 08:25:14 am »
Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
http://www.vortexbladeless.com/home.php

What do you think ?

Obvious crowdfunding scam.
Bob
"All you said is just a bunch of opinions."
 

Offline SL4P

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2015, 09:53:25 am »
Lets just cut to the chase and make a vortex roadway. Why the hell not?
DONE:
Don't ask a question if you aren't willing to listen to the answer.
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2015, 11:33:18 am »
Piezo generator, REALLY ?  :o I was only kidding when I suggested that earlier in the thread !

I wonder what the noise issues might be as well. As many will know, when you start interfering with air flow or trying to move air, you can generate quite a lot of noise. I worry when I think of resonant structures as many designers have to avoid such for structural and accoustic reasons. Are the poles going to resonate at audio frequencies I wonder.......imagine a hundred of these things 'singing', all at slightly different frequencies.......a natural orchestra guaranteed to send anyone within earshot barmey in no time at all.

They will also need to consider icing in winter. Icing affects conventional wins turbines and would change the profile and weight distribution of the vertical 'straw', with potential efficiency reduction and the risk of falling ice on anyone below. Heating the straw is an option but this reduces overall efficiency. Maybe the 'straws' natural vibration would stop ice crystals forming ? Harsh environment testing would certainly be a good idea.

Aurora
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 11:34:49 am by Aurora »
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Offline LabSpokane

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2015, 05:36:37 pm »
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/537721/bladeless-wind-turbines-may-offer-more-form-than-function/

Bladeless Wind Turbines May Offer More Form Than Function
Startup Vortex Bladeless makes a turbine that looks intriguing, but it may not solve wind power’s challenges.

By Phil McKenna on May 27, 2015

WHY IT MATTERS

Wind could supply almost 20 percent of the total global energy market by 2030, up from 3 percent today.


Vortex says its bladeless turbines will generate electricity for 40 percent less than the cost of power from conventional wind turbines.?

Wind power has become a legitimate source of energy over the past few decades as larger, more efficient turbine designs have produced ever-increasing amounts of power. But even though the industry saw a record $99.5 billion global investment in 2014, turbine growth may be reaching its limits.

Transportation is increasingly challenging because of the size of the components: individual blades and tower sections often require specialized trucks and straight, wide roads. Today’s wind turbines are also incredibly top heavy. Generators and gearboxes sitting on support towers 100 meters off the ground can weigh more than 100 tons. As the weight and height of turbines increase, the materials costs of wider, stronger support towers, as well as the cost of maintaining components housed so far from the ground, are cutting into the efficiency benefits of larger turbines.

The alternative energy industry has repeatedly tried to solve these issues to no avail. But the latest entry promises a radically different type of wind turbine: a bladeless cylinder that oscillates or vibrates.

Spanish startup Vortex Bladeless has developed turbines that harness vorticity, the spinning motion of air or other fluids. When wind passes one of the cylindrical turbines, it shears off the downwind side of the cylinder in a spinning whirlpool or vortex. That vortex then exerts force on the cylinder, causing it to vibrate. The kinetic energy of the oscillating cylinder is converted to electricity through a linear generator similar to those used to harness wave energy.

David Yáñez, one of the company’s cofounders, first came across the concept as a student studying the collapse of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in Washington. The bridge collapsed in 1940 due to excessive vibrations formed by the spinning motion of wind as it blew past the bridge and is a textbook engineering failure. Yáñez, however, learned a different lesson. “This is a very good way to transmit energy from a fluid to a structure,” he says.

Vortex’s lightweight cylinder design has no gears or bearings. Yáñez says it will generate electricity for 40 percent less than the cost of power from conventional wind turbines. The company has received $1 million in private capital and government funding in Spain and is seeking another $5 million in venture capital funding. Yáñez says the company plans to release a four-kilowatt system in 2016 and a much larger one-megawatt device around 2018.

The Vortex turbine sounds promising, but like any radical new alternative energy design, bladeless turbines have plenty of skeptics.

“If you have a common propeller-type wind turbine, you have a big area swept by the blades,” says Martin Hansen, a wind energy specialist at the Technical University of Denmark. “Here you just have a pole.”

In addition to capturing less energy, oscillating cylinders can’t convert as much of that energy into electricity, Hansen says. A conventional wind turbine typically converts 80 to 90 percent of the kinetic energy of its spinning rotor into electricity. Yáñez says his company’s custom-built linear generator will have a conversion efficiency of 70 percent.

Yáñez concedes that the oscillating turbine design will sweep a smaller area and have a lower conversion efficiency, but says significant reductions in manufacturing and maintenance costs will outweigh the losses.

As Vortex builds bigger devices that catch higher-speed winds further from the ground, it will also run up against other challenges inherent to the physics of fluid mechanics. Air or other fluids moving at low speeds past small-diameter cylinders flow in a smooth, constant motion. Increase the diameter of the cylinder and the speed at which the air flows across it, however, and the flow becomes turbulent, producing chaotic eddies or vortices. The turbulent flow causes the oscillating frequency of the cylinder to vary, making it difficult to optimize for energy production.

“With very thin cylinders and very slow velocities you get singing telephone lines, an absolutely pure frequency or tone,” says Sheila Widnall, an aeronautics and astronautics professor at MIT. “But when the cylinder gets very big and wind gets very high, you get a range of frequencies. You won’t be able to get as much energy out of it as you want to because the oscillation is fundamentally turbulent.”

Widnall also questions the company’s claim that its turbines will be silent. “The oscillating frequencies that shake the cylinder will make noise,” she says. “It will sound like a freight train coming through your wind farm.”


Oscillating cylinders are just one of several emerging technologies aimed at harvesting more of the wind for less. Makani Power is developing a tethered “energy kite” (see “Flying Windmills”). It flies in a large circle similar to the tip of a conventional turbine blade while harnessing wind power via smaller onboard turbines. Astro Teller, head of Google X, Google’s semi-secret research facility that acquired Makani in 2013, said in March that the company would soon begin tests of a full-scale, 600-kilowatt kite.

John Dabiri, an aeronautics and bioengineering professor at Caltech, is testing different configurations of vertical axis turbines, which are essentially windmills that spin like a merry-go-round rather than on a horizontal axis like a bicycle wheel. Typically wind turbines are placed far apart from each other to optimize energy production. Drawing on the same principles that fish use to conserve energy by schooling, Dabiri found that turbines placed close to each other could produce more energy than those that are far apart.

“You can co?rdinate the operation of multiple wind turbines such that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts,” he says.

Dabiri says such synergistic effects could also apply to conventional, horizontal axis windmills or even oscillating turbines. The latter pose a greater challenge because the wake of such turbines is very chaotic but also a potential benefit because the wake packs a lot of energy, he says.

Much remains to be seen with Vortex’s oscillating turbine, Dabiri says, but he adds that he is excited by the company’s concept. “Anyone who says the three-bladed turbine is the best we can do is lacking in vision.” 
 

Online ajb

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Re: Bladeless Wind turbine ?? Feasible or Total Fraud ?
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2015, 06:01:40 pm »
For comparison, Ars Technica has a good if not in-depth article on improving the economics of conventional wind turbines.  While it's a fairly mature technology, there is room to improve the economics, in particular material and installation costs, such that we could see conventional turbines being deployed in areas that don't yet make sense economically. 
 


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