Author Topic: Bloody Windows!!!  (Read 22741 times)

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Offline amspire

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2018, 09:28:32 am »
How the heck is that a success? Microsoft offered Windows 10 as a free upgrade to Windows 7 users and less than half of them took them up on their offer, despite being bombarded with adware pushing it. I'd say that's pretty poor. The only other reason for Windows 10 gaining ground is the usual hardware upgrade cycle: new systems purchased with Windows 10 pre-installed.
Because Windows 10 ends in late 2020. Only 2 1/2 years left. That has always be the plan and it has never changed. You can keep using Windows 10 for free for another 4 years after that, but 2020 is when they will release the next stage of their plan that will not be free. The free Windows 10 was always part of a deal where you get it free for a limited time in exchange for you giving up your old Windows.

Windows 10 is the last numbered Windows release ever and it is ending. It is the last in the chain that started with Windows 1.01 in the 1985.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 12:44:47 pm by amspire »
 

Offline Naguissa

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2018, 12:38:22 pm »
I have an old machine, a top-notch HP TX2 (Turion64x2, 4Gb, old.portable Radeon), and win10 works fine.on it. It's worse than Ubuntu Mate, but works pretty well.

The only problem (besides hp thermal issues) is the Meltdown/Spectre patches. They keep installing (they were retired, in theory) an prevents Windows booting until repaired/restored (on 3rd boot attempt).

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Offline amspire

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2018, 12:41:12 pm »
Windows 10 really is transformed if you use a SSD C: drive. It makes the PC feel at least twice as fast. I am still using an old Dell XPS notebook with a core duo processor, but with a SSD, it feels really fast. Starts up very fast.

The Turion 64x2 is now a really slow CPU. I usually don't bother with anything that is not at least 80% faster.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 12:53:10 pm by amspire »
 

Offline Naguissa

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2018, 01:12:02 pm »
Windows 10 really is transformed if you use a SSD C: drive. It makes the PC feel at least twice as fast. I am still using an old Dell XPS notebook with a core duo processor, but with a SSD, it feels really fast. Starts up very fast.

The Turion 64x2 is now a really slow CPU. I usually don't bother with anything that is not at least 80% faster.
It's my children's computer and he uses it dor Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas and little more. A little low framerate bu he loves it....

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Online Zero999

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2018, 01:55:28 pm »
How the heck is that a success? Microsoft offered Windows 10 as a free upgrade to Windows 7 users and less than half of them took them up on their offer, despite being bombarded with adware pushing it. I'd say that's pretty poor. The only other reason for Windows 10 gaining ground is the usual hardware upgrade cycle: new systems purchased with Windows 10 pre-installed.
Because Windows 10 ends in late 2020. Only 2 1/2 years left. That has always be the plan and it has never changed. You can keep using Windows 10 for free for another 4 years after that, but 2020 is when they will release the next stage of their plan that will not be free. The free Windows 10 was always part of a deal where you get it free for a limited time in exchange for you giving up your old Windows.

Windows 10 is the last numbered Windows release ever and it is ending. It is the last in the chain that started with Windows 1.01 in the 1985.
Yes, I'm aware of that. I don't see how MS ditching a strategy, which proved successful in the past, will bring them future success. Desktop PC sales have been in decline for the last few years and MS lost the phone war, so they're panicking and trying out some really strange ideas, in the hope it will fix things but it won't.

The market has changed permanently. MS needs to focus on developing an OS with a UI aimed at desktops and perhaps servers, as they're its niche. Windows has had some success on tablets, so a separate touch screen UI is still worth developing (for now at least, Android and iOS may eventually push Windows out), but pushing it on the desktop will not work. MS need to stop trying to grow and focus on what they're already good at. Aiming for perpetual growth for many businesses is unsustainable.

Windows 10 really is transformed if you use a SSD C: drive. It makes the PC feel at least twice as fast. I am still using an old Dell XPS notebook with a core duo processor, but with a SSD, it feels really fast. Starts up very fast.

The Turion 64x2 is now a really slow CPU. I usually don't bother with anything that is not at least 80% faster.
Of course, any OS will be better on an SSD. Personally speaking, I've not noticed any performance boost when upgrading to Windows 10, from 7, on a machine already fitted with an SSD. As mentioned before, the metro apps perform poorly, compared to their traditional counterparts.
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2018, 03:37:59 pm »
 There's nothing really strange about what Microsoft is doing, Apple has been doing it for years. Their OS has been called OS X for how long now? Windows 10 is it, instead of complete wipes and refresh with a totally different OS< now there will be incremental updates as time goes by. Already there have been several improvements on the original Windows 10. I fail to see this "it's a tablet OS" thing. There's nothing that happens on my laptop (which does NOT have a touchscreen, and I wouldn't want one, hard enough keeping my actual tablet device clean) that uses giant oversize icons meant for finger tapping instead of mouse clicking, nor are there any strange active areas that would be needed for a touch interface but just get in the way when you use a mouse. I'm not bombarded by ads - in fact at some point I just realized that I don;t even see a suggested apps thing on the start menu any more.
 I AM using Win 10 Pro, NOT Home, so I'm sure that makes some difference. But why would you want the Home version on a machine being used for work anyway. One nice thing about having Pro is I can use Hyper-V to run XP in a VM so I can use things like VB6 without the workarounds to make it run on an unsupported OS. I'm seamlessly connected to both work and personal OneDrive folders which allows me to get anything I want to work on from any of my computers.

                           
 

Online bd139

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2018, 03:54:59 pm »
There's nothing that happens on my laptop (which does NOT have a touchscreen, and I wouldn't want one, hard enough keeping my actual tablet device clean) that uses giant oversize icons meant for finger tapping instead of mouse clicking, nor are there any strange active areas that would be needed for a touch interface but just get in the way when you use a mouse.

Hmm. New vs old (build 1709):

 
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Offline hammy

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2018, 09:48:28 pm »
Because Windows 10 ends in late 2020. Only 2 1/2 years left. That has always be the plan and it has never changed.

What does this mean? Are you refering to the support lifecycle of each Windows 10 release?
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2018, 10:01:48 pm »
Because Windows 10 ends in late 2020. Only 2 1/2 years left. That has always be the plan and it has never changed.

What does this mean? Are you refering to the support lifecycle of each Windows 10 release?
No. The end of mainstream support for Windows 10 ends in late 2020. That has always been the plan. Each release of Windows 10 has a very short life so the latest release ends its life totally September this year I believe.

I think in 2020, they will  release a new product that will be technically very superior to Windows but it won't be free. It may be called "Windows" but without any version, or it may have a new name. There will be very compelling reasons for both IT professionals and ordinary users to move to it - it will make Windows 10 seem like Windows 98. We are not talking fluff features like Cortana. It will probably have much better compatibility support then the last Windows 10. If you want to keep using Windows 10 for another 4 years, knock yourself out. New PCs with Windows 10 will probably dry up quickly. Windows 7 will be gone, and Windows 8.1 will be all but gone.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2018, 10:33:32 pm »
Windows 10 really is transformed if you use a SSD C: drive. It makes the PC feel at least twice as fast. I am still using an old Dell XPS notebook with a core duo processor, but with a SSD, it feels really fast. Starts up very fast.

The Turion 64x2 is now a really slow CPU. I usually don't bother with anything that is not at least 80% faster.

Boot time is one of the most common things I hear touted by Win10 fanbois, and I've never figured out why this is deemed so important to some people. I normally cold boot my PC maybe once every 2-3 months, the rest of the time I just let it suspend which Win7 comes back from in just a few seconds. I really don't care if it takes 5 seconds to cold boot or a full minute, I can hit the power button, go fill up my water glass, move the cat off my seat and by the time I'm sat down ready to use it the thing has booted up.
 
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Offline IanB

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2018, 10:38:01 pm »
Boot time is one of the most common things I hear touted by Win10 fanbois, and I've never figured out why this is deemed so important to some people. I normally cold boot my PC maybe once every 2-3 months, the rest of the time I just let it suspend which Win7 comes back from in just a few seconds.

Windows updates. I am forced to reboot every month or sometimes every week or two to install updates. And then the whole process of installing updates, restarting, and configuring the updates after the restart takes about 15 minutes. It is very annoying.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2018, 10:43:30 pm »
Windows 10 really is transformed if you use a SSD C: drive. It makes the PC feel at least twice as fast. I am still using an old Dell XPS notebook with a core duo processor, but with a SSD, it feels really fast. Starts up very fast.

The Turion 64x2 is now a really slow CPU. I usually don't bother with anything that is not at least 80% faster.

Boot time is one of the most common things I hear touted by Win10 fanbois, and I've never figured out why this is deemed so important to some people. I normally cold boot my PC maybe once every 2-3 months, the rest of the time I just let it suspend which Win7 comes back from in just a few seconds. I really don't care if it takes 5 seconds to cold boot or a full minute, I can hit the power button, go fill up my water glass, move the cat off my seat and by the time I'm sat down ready to use it the thing has booted up.
I couldn’t agree more. I boot my machines (all Macs) every 2-12 weeks, mostly dependent on software updates. It’s been literally decades since I ran machines that actually got shut down.

What always surprised and annoyed me about the Windows 7 machine I had at my old job (back when 7 was new) was how incredibly long it took to wake from sleep. With my full compliment of applications running when put to sleep,  it normally took it about five minutes to fully wake from sleep!! (Only a few seconds for the screen to come back up and offer the login screen, but it’d take 5 minutes for it to actually become responsive.)

In contrast, I’m used to Macs waking and reaching full responsiveness in seconds. (On my Mac Pro using an HP display, it actually takes the display longer to wake from sleep than the OS!)


Boot time is one of the most common things I hear touted by Win10 fanbois, and I've never figured out why this is deemed so important to some people. I normally cold boot my PC maybe once every 2-3 months, the rest of the time I just let it suspend which Win7 comes back from in just a few seconds.

Windows updates. I am forced to reboot every month or sometimes every week or two to install updates. And then the whole process of installing updates, restarting, and configuring the updates after the restart takes about 15 minutes. It is very annoying.
That’s something else that always annoyed and perplexed me about Windows: why updates take so long to install! Though it has gotten better with each major version, it still takes way longer than similar size updates on Mac OS X. (Disclaimer: I have never used Windows 10, and only early previews of 8, so if those are significantly different in terms of update install speed, please let me know!)
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2018, 10:44:15 pm »
No. The end of mainstream support for Windows 10 ends in late 2020. That has always been the plan. Each release of Windows 10 has a very short life so the latest release ends its life totally September this year I believe.

I think in 2020, they will  release a new product that will be technically very superior to Windows but it won't be free. It may be called "Windows" but without any version, or it may have a new name. There will be very compelling reasons for both IT professionals and ordinary users to move to it - it will make Windows 10 seem like Windows 98. We are not talking fluff features like Cortana. It will probably have much better compatibility support then the last Windows 10. If you want to keep using Windows 10 for another 4 years, knock yourself out. New PCs with Windows 10 will probably dry up quickly. Windows 7 will be gone, and Windows 8.1 will be all but gone.

There is a slight snag with this plan. There is no need to upgrade the OS on existing hardware if the present OS is working fine. And hardware has stopped making any meaningful advances for the past many years, so there is no need to replace the hardware either.

Even now, Windows 10 has limited presence in corporate environments. It takes corporate IT departments years to standardize on a new OS, and they do that very rarely due to the costs involved.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2018, 10:51:39 pm »
I take your point that people tend to prefer what they know, but I don't think that's why people prefer XP & 7 to Windows 10: you don't find many people talking about Vista and Windows 8 with so much affection as XP or 7. Windows XP and 7 both had their teething problems, but neither of them were as difficult to use, on a desktop, as Windows 10.

If Microsoft continue down this path of pushing a tablet UI on the desktop, then they're pretty much fucked. People will start to look for alternatives.


While I'm guilty of preferring what I know, on my work PC Win10 made me jump ship, finally pushed me to take the plunge and move to Linux on my primary machine. Unfamiliar and had a learning curve but if I'm forced to learn a new way of doing things at least I can be free of Microsoft and their business model. Frankly I don't care if Win7 was so good that people could keep using it for years and years, that's exactly what I want, product good enough that I can keep using it. I'm not a charity to support a corporation's business model by continuing to feed them money when I don't need any updates. Something else that has been a welcome surprise with Linux is that updates are painless and generally do not require a reboot. I checked just now and this PC's uptime is 149 days without a reboot, it's a breath of fresh air. My Win10 laptop on the other hand, maybe it boots quickly without an update, but whenever Windows Update kicks in, which is frequent, it's dead in the water for a good 30-40 minutes while it sits there updating, usually at the most inopportune time.

With as relentlessly as MS pushed Win10 I can't see how anyone can consider it anything other than a disaster. It struggles to hit 50%, meaning millions and millions of people went way out of their way jumping through all the hoops required to avoid it. 50% is pathetic given the circumstances.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 11:00:33 pm by james_s »
 

Online jmelson

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2018, 11:20:32 pm »

While I'm guilty of preferring what I know, on my work PC Win10 made me jump ship, finally pushed me to take the plunge and move to Linux on my primary machine. Unfamiliar and had a learning curve but if I'm forced to learn a new way of doing things at least I can be free of Microsoft and their business model.
Congratulations!  (And, what took you so long?)

I got a software package that needed Linux in 1997 (real time motion control).  The developers tried a "real time" option to Windows, but that developer's idea of real time was within a second was good enough.  Not if you are moving hundreds of Lbs. of machinery around to cut metal!  A real time patch was developed for Linux, and it worked.  At first, I just wanted that package to run, but then I started seeing that Linux could do (almost) everything I needed.  By 1999, I was pretty much converted over.  I do run some versions of Windows in a virtual machine to run CAD apps and a tax filing app that have no Linux version.

My entire family runs Linux, too, after their Windows machines all got filled with viruses.

Jon
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2018, 11:32:14 pm »
I've played with Linux off and on since the late 90s. Usually I'd install it, marvel at the progress that had been made since the last time I tried, then after some time I'd get stuck trying to make something work, spend hours and hours troubleshooting and eventually give up and set it aside. Wash, rinse, repeat. Also at home I use several programs/hardware devices that are Windows only without any reasonable way to make them work on Linux so I stick with Win7 for daily use there. I actually really like Win7, the calc app is crap but the better one from XP works just fine in 7. Win10 though regressed to the point that it has taken on that crufty half baked feel of early 2000's open source stuff and now Linux feels more polished and finished by default.
 
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Offline amspire

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2018, 11:34:54 pm »
No. The end of mainstream support for Windows 10 ends in late 2020. That has always been the plan. Each release of Windows 10 has a very short life so the latest release ends its life totally September this year I believe.

I think in 2020, they will  release a new product that will be technically very superior to Windows but it won't be free. It may be called "Windows" but without any version, or it may have a new name. There will be very compelling reasons for both IT professionals and ordinary users to move to it - it will make Windows 10 seem like Windows 98. We are not talking fluff features like Cortana. It will probably have much better compatibility support then the last Windows 10. If you want to keep using Windows 10 for another 4 years, knock yourself out. New PCs with Windows 10 will probably dry up quickly. Windows 7 will be gone, and Windows 8.1 will be all but gone.

There is a slight snag with this plan. There is no need to upgrade the OS on existing hardware if the present OS is working fine. And hardware has stopped making any meaningful advances for the past many years, so there is no need to replace the hardware either.

Even now, Windows 10 has limited presence in corporate environments. It takes corporate IT departments years to standardize on a new OS, and they do that very rarely due to the costs involved.
Windows 10 used to have limited presence in corporate environments, but that is really starting to change very quickly now. IT department just can't be still using Windows 7 in 2020.

There will be a compelling need to update the Windows OS - Microsoft have already ceased development on Windows 7 and 8.1 and soon they will cease development on Windows 10. There is not going to be a choice to stick with some old version of Windows.

Also Windows has always been a total dog for IT support. Seeing at IT Pro sitting in front of a PC for hours while they are installing and updating Windows is a joke. There are ways to make it more efficient, but when you are given a PC that will need a complete reinstall of the O/S while preserving all the widespread data and all the programs programs and all the settings, you know you have a big job.

Technically, there is no reason with the technology now not to have a already updated core O/S installed in under 1 minute and then to be able to then have all the old settings, programs, etc automatically downloaded. If it is coming from a fast server, that can literally be well under 10 minutes in total.

A new technology that finally dumps all that unnecessary waste of time and effort will have serious IT pros falling to their knees in thanks - that is if Microsoft can actually do it. I will wait and see.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2018, 11:44:06 pm »
[quote author=amspire link=topic=102204.msg1403114#msg1403114 date=1516232094

There will be a compelling need to update the Windows OS - Microsoft have already ceased development on Windows 7 and 8.1 and soon they will cease development on Windows 10. There is not going to be a choice to stick with some old version of Windows.
[/quote]

Bullshit. There are millions of PCs still running XP and millions more still running Win7, there is absolutely a choice to stick with some old version, a majority of PCs throughout the world are on some old version.

I'm not holding my breath waiting for IT to swarm in and upgrade to some completely new things. We've seen over and over that compatibility with existing infrastructure trumps "new and improved" every time. I'm seeing more and more Macbooks and Linux machines at work. A good friend of mine surprised me recently when he said he's never even seen Win10, having worked so long at Mac or Linux based tech companies. Google is huge around here and doesn't even allow Windows on their corporate network.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2018, 11:58:53 pm »
Microsoft have already ceased development on Windows 7 and 8.1

If only...except they haven't. They keep issuing security patches, which means they are still finding bugs to fix, which means after all these years Windows 7 is not finished. This is really something I find disappointing, that Microsoft put so much effort into developing Windows 10 before they had finished making Windows 7 complete and secure. Yes, I know I am being tongue-in-cheek here, if not sarcastic, but really. Why switch from something that must by now (surely?) have most of the security holes patched up to something new with a whole lot of new code and new bugs that will need patching?
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #44 on: January 18, 2018, 12:40:13 am »
No one has seen what Microsoft will release in 2020. And I have heard people saying before how they the current version of Windows did everything they wanted and they were never going to change - with Windows 98. That plan went well.

Then they realised that Windows XP was much better and they changed. IF Microsoft release something that is genuinely much better, they will change again. They will not throw out the current technology - they can just put it in a saner and more manageable framework.
 

Online bd139

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2018, 12:51:04 am »
They have to put the crack pipe down first.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2018, 01:03:23 am »
There are people still using Win98, not many but they are out there. XP has many millions of users still despite being absolutely ancient. Win7 will still be in common use 10 years from now, I doubt it will be in the majority as it is currently but it will still have a significant presence. Microsoft seems to be doing everything they can to kill the Windows legacy which if they succeed will be the end of most people's need for Windows. Trying to push out something entirely new will fail, just as they failed spectacularly to create a viable mobile platform despite claims that Windows Mobile was going to take over, that they were going to crush Google, yeah, worked well didn't it?
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2018, 02:01:26 am »
There are people still using Win98, not many but they are out there. XP has many millions of users still despite being absolutely ancient. Win7 will still be in common use 10 years from now, I doubt it will be in the majority as it is currently but it will still have a significant presence.
None of those people earn Microsoft 1 cent. They are not the people Microsoft care about.
Quote
Microsoft seems to be doing everything they can to kill the Windows legacy which if they succeed will be the end of most people's need for Windows. Trying to push out something entirely new will fail, just as they failed spectacularly to create a viable mobile platform despite claims that Windows Mobile was going to take over, that they were going to crush Google, yeah, worked well didn't it?
Why would Microsoft want to kill the Windows legacy? Using new technology, you can have far better and easier legacy compatibility.

If you look at the recent Windows releases, they have been killing compatibility. Have you tried to run an old 16 bit windows program lately?

If you change to a new platform, you could strip all legacy compatibility for ever out of the O/S, and yet have program compatibility back to Windows 3.11 if you really wanted it. The technology exists now, but it probably didn't exist 10 years ago. As well as the profit motive, Microsoft is starting to loose many of its old Windows NT experts and how many will be left in 2030? A monolithic piece of software that is getting increasing complex and yet has to incorporate legacy support going back decades at a time you are starting to loose your long time experts is a total nightmare to manage. It is a stack of cards that could just collapse.

You can make something much better without the monolithic software.

If Microsoft do a really good job, you will look at the new Windows?? and say Wow! - I didn't know that could be done. That is really going to make life easier for me. It seems like magic.

You do not see that now or you do not believe Microsoft can achieve this? Ok, that is fine.

I suspect they may achieve this not because of Microsoft, but because of some of the brilliant people they have been employing recently. I just think that some of those people would only want to go to Microsoft if they were going to do a proper job developing the currently available technology into something pretty good.
 

Offline timb

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2018, 03:46:42 am »
There's nothing really strange about what Microsoft is doing, Apple has been doing it for years. Their OS has been called OS X for how long now?

Actually, the history of Mac OS X naming is interesting.

Originally the name was ”Mac OS X 10.n”, but starting with 10.2 they began using the internal codenames (named after big cats) publicly. So, from 10.2/Jaguar to 10.7/Lion the name was officially “Mac OS X 10.n <Big Cat>”.

Starting with 10.8/Mountain Lion they dropped “Mac” from the title (since the OS was the basis for other, non-Mac devices) and it became “OS X 10.n <Codename>”; with 10.9/Mavericks they ran out of big cats and started using California landmarks (Mavericks, Yosemite, El Capitan, Sierra).

Then, two years ago they dropped the OS X moniker completely. Now they’re referred to as “macOS <California Landmark>”, no OS X or version number. (Of course, the OS still reports a version <10.13.2> to software and the user can see it in the About This Mac dialog.)

Something else to keep in mind is that Windows 10 is trying to implement a rolling release. They don’t want to do point releases (or Service Packs) anymore. They want it to just be a steady stream of updates. In that case, having a version number doesn’t make a lot of sense. Instead, they should simply call it “Windows” and be done with it.

macOS is generally updated yearly (on a tick/tock cycle), with point releases and security patches delivered throughout the year. You’re not forced to upgrade or update, so having version numbers still makes sense.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 
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Online bd139

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Re: Bloody Windows!!!
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2018, 10:05:20 am »
I'm quite happy with rolling updates. I hate total OS refresh projects as it means lots of capex and wall clock time pissed out of the window for everyone rather than short controlled bursts (to quote Alien 2)
 


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