Author Topic: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).  (Read 10159 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6460
  • Country: nl
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2018, 09:12:31 am »
The biggest problem is that people with little technical knowledge, managers in general, have the company power to overrule those who do have the knowledge.
When those with knowledge protest they get fired.

There is only one solution IMO make those managers personal liable for their decisions, meaning they go to jail when people die due to their money based decisions.
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16276
  • Country: za
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2018, 09:39:35 am »
Aluminium wire is good, providing you terminate it correctly and do not have it flex too much. So, hopefully the aluminium wire runs from bulkhead connector assembly to bulkhead connector assembly with a rigid sheath and rigid mounting to keep it from flexing during use, and then the ends are done using either short copper or aluminium connector tails that are replaced regularly as they flex, before they reach a fatigue life limit. Of course using digital data buses to move the data long distance instead of multiple individual wires is best, though for redundancy you need to have at least 3 paths for the wiring, one port lower, one starboard lower and one via top of cabin, so that any structural failure does not cause total loss of communications, and of course each link must have a dual redundant interface each end, and then polling and majority vote electronics to aggregate the data and give the best valid data as output either end. Saves a lot of mass, though there is added cost of the 6 controllers you need, but they are at least possible to design as interchangeable devices making them lower cost.

However, Boeing did have a lot of labour issuesh, and it was no secret there was some very poor work done at some of the assembly plants they got parts from. Same for RR, there were some parts that had early failure from poor design, poor assembly and poor QC, like the accessory gearboxes that caused a few engine failures, due to a poorly centred drilling that was not allowing full flow of lubricantm and which also was very prone to cracking and leaking oil into the engine itself.

As to uncontained engine failure, the biggest risk is not cabin penetration, as the cabin is only around 10 degrees of rotation, but rather fragments damaging control surfaces, as there the 180 degree coverage is a lot higher risk, and cabin damage is something that is bad, but containable with rapid descent to breathable altitude.  Wing damage runs the risk of tanks losing fuel ( ETOPS  does not help if you are 3 hours out and are losing fuel rapidly such that you only have 2 hours of fuel for the remaining engine) and control surface damage, which was the cause of the Dutch accident. However the cowling’s do reduce velocity of the fragments so they are less damaging, there might be damage but at least it is less, and a higher probability of the aircraft still being able to fly, though generally when that occurs most pilots are going to look for the closest landing place possible, not the most convenient.

Remember the original Being 747 was kind or renowned for departing London for New York, or the other way round, with 4 engines, and arriving with 3, one having fallen off from fatigued fuse pins and engine mounts mid Atlantic. Fixed with better fuse pin design, better crack checking cycles and also not using fork lifts to change engines, and overstress the mounts as the hydraulics leak down.

As to me, I used to travel on C130's, and always sat 2 rows back from the red line painted inside and outside the fuselage, over the yellow line painted on the floor that indicated wing root and thus COG of the plane.  Same on the C47, though there I also had a party trick of drinking a cool drink during heavy thunderstorms, and keeping the level in the bottle even as the plane pitched and yawed though the storm. Made a few of the others grab the bags I also had as well. From there go to a commercial carrier, and had no issue with the bumpy flight, even had the on board meal as well, though I did have to hold the glass while eating, as it would not stay on the seat back tray. 30000 feet above a major storm is not bumpy in a 737, if you flew in through the same storm at 8000 feet in a Dakota.
 
The following users thanked this post: rsjsouza, tautech

Offline VK3DRB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2252
  • Country: au
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2018, 10:38:52 am »
The biggest problem is that people with little technical knowledge, managers in general, have the company power to overrule those who do have the knowledge.
When those with knowledge protest they get fired.

There is only one solution IMO make those managers personal liable for their decisions, meaning they go to jail when people die due to their money based decisions.

Hey I am a manager and it is highly likely I know a lot more about electronics and firmware design than you ever will. :box:
 

Offline Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6460
  • Country: nl
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2018, 02:13:16 pm »
Hey I am a manager and it is highly likely I know a lot more about electronics and firmware design than you ever will. :box:
Good for you  ::) Scientific studies show that most managers have a narcistic personal disorder, grave for power and overrate their knowledge and  achievements  :-DD


In the meantime back online the first direct intercontinental flight from Australia to Europe (London) has taken place with a 787-9 on board high Quantas officials.
https://nos.nl/artikel/2224226-eerste-directe-lijnvlucht-tussen-australie-en-europa-geland-in-londen.html
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 02:14:53 pm by Kjelt »
 

Offline raptor1956

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 869
  • Country: us
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2018, 04:54:32 am »
I would not use Aluminum wire on an AC or spacecraft -- the weight saving are not worth the reliability risks.  The better approach is to eliminate, as much as possible, the need for wiring by using optical fiber for comm and signals and copper for power.  The use of digitally multiplexed signals over an optical bus pretty much eliminates the need to run long length of copper or even aluminum for those signals.  What might have required 3500kg of wire 50 years ago can be done with 500kg or less today given the ability to multiplex dozens or hundreds to signals that once needed discrete wires but can now be done over an optical LAN cable.

Basically, at various places in the AC you have an area interface hub that is wired, using short runs, from sensors and actuators and then the hub is connected to higher level systems via a digital/optical buss.  You see something like this in most newer cars though the bus (CAN bus) isn't optical.  Over time I think we'll see cars go optical though the benefit is less than AC.

No way would I use aluminum wiring except for high tension power lines...


Brian
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2018, 07:48:45 am »
I would not use Aluminum wire on an AC or spacecraft -- the weight saving are not worth the reliability risks.  The better approach is to eliminate, as much as possible, the need for wiring by using optical fiber for comm and signals and copper for power.  The use of digitally multiplexed signals over an optical bus pretty much eliminates the need to run long length of copper or even aluminum for those signals.  What might have required 3500kg of wire 50 years ago can be done with 500kg or less today given the ability to multiplex dozens or hundreds to signals that once needed discrete wires but can now be done over an optical LAN cable.

Basically, at various places in the AC you have an area interface hub that is wired, using short runs, from sensors and actuators and then the hub is connected to higher level systems via a digital/optical buss.  You see something like this in most newer cars though the bus (CAN bus) isn't optical.  Over time I think we'll see cars go optical though the benefit is less than AC.

No way would I use aluminum wiring except for high tension power lines...


Brian

I think the redundancy of multiple cables is a feature, not a bug.
 

Offline VK3DRB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2252
  • Country: au
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2018, 12:44:36 pm »

...Scientific studies show that most managers have a narcistic personal disorder, grave for power and overrate their knowledge and  achievements.

Sure, I have come across managers who exhibit the traits you describe.

One memorable one was nicknamed "FIGJAM", meaning "F*** I Am Good, Just Ask Me". Figjam knew how to play the corporate game in one of the worlds biggest tech companies. He knew next to nothing about electronics, software or systems engineering, despite him often boasting two engineering degrees and an MBA (Master of Bulls**t Artistry). He spoke incessant buzz words and gobbledegook to impress technically dim managers. He was very, very cunning. For example, he asked me how a colour TV picture tube works, so I described how a picture tube worked in detail. I found out from a colleague he had slyly gone to senior management pushing the case that he was the only engineer who had the skills and experience about how monitor works and as a result that he should run a major new project involving manufacturing monitors. The reality was everything he touched technically turned to mud, but he had a great knack of covering it up by moving on, letting someone else clean up the mess. 

Once, four of us were involved in an trial in deploying the first PCs in a school in Australia. It attracted a lot of media attention. Figjam boasted to all his double degree and knowledge of computers would prove invaluable in ensuring everything worked.  We managed the PC rollout, educated key school staff and I wrote the menu software. We worked as a team, all in our own time. It turned out Figjam contributed absolutely nothing, except his ego.

The biggest display of ego was when Fijgam stood up on one of the cafeteria tables addressing a couple of hundred subordinates, saying something like, "Friends, colleagues, countrymen. As I was painting my picket fences the other day I had a vision. A vision of what could be. I have a dream! It's called MATRIX MANAGEMENT. And I want you all to share the dream!" Even Josef Goebbels would have been impressed with this nutter's egotistical performance. The reality was Figjam had created a new form of chaos theory. 

Figjam was one of a kind. He was fundamentally a shonky salesman. Under Figjam's leadership, the entire place closed and 600 people lost their jobs. That was years ago.

I now work in satellite equipment design (I also do electronics design myself, as well as manager a team). I can tell you all our managers are experts in their fields. No-one remotely like Figjam. No egos, no politics or hidden agendas. Just people who are the real deal. I think most technical managers in successful companies are genuine and are technically astute.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 12:51:46 pm by VK3DRB »
 

Offline MTTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1616
  • Country: aq
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2018, 04:03:22 pm »
NOTE: This message has been deleted by the forum moderator Simon for being against the forum rules and/or at the discretion of the moderator as being in the best interests of the forum community and the nature of the thread.
If you believe this to be in error, please contact the moderator involved.
An optional additional explanation is:
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 08:23:51 pm by Simon »
 

Offline IanMacdonald

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 943
  • Country: gb
    • IWR Consultancy
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2018, 04:15:09 pm »
"The engine failure containment systems must be near 100% proof."

Actually it's only rated to normal max rpm. If the engine suffers a major overspeed then shrapnel may bust out of the casing. That happened some time back when an oil pipe broke and the engine started consuming its own lube oil. Apparently jets are like diesels in that respect, once warmed up they will run on just about anything that burns.
 

Offline MTTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1616
  • Country: aq
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2018, 04:23:26 pm »
RR engine failures , quantas A380 engine failure, oh dear yet another 1 hour video, how terrible!

The ATSB investigation is one good read, it will take hours so "instant satisfaction people"
here on the forum probably should avoid it , it might be to informative. ::)
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2010/aair/ao-2010-089.aspx





Air France A380 engine failure as reported by the most "fake news company" there are:


« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 04:43:31 pm by MT »
 

Offline raptor1956

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 869
  • Country: us
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2018, 05:59:23 pm »
I would not use Aluminum wire on an AC or spacecraft -- the weight saving are not worth the reliability risks.  The better approach is to eliminate, as much as possible, the need for wiring by using optical fiber for comm and signals and copper for power.  The use of digitally multiplexed signals over an optical bus pretty much eliminates the need to run long length of copper or even aluminum for those signals.  What might have required 3500kg of wire 50 years ago can be done with 500kg or less today given the ability to multiplex dozens or hundreds to signals that once needed discrete wires but can now be done over an optical LAN cable.

Basically, at various places in the AC you have an area interface hub that is wired, using short runs, from sensors and actuators and then the hub is connected to higher level systems via a digital/optical buss.  You see something like this in most newer cars though the bus (CAN bus) isn't optical.  Over time I think we'll see cars go optical though the benefit is less than AC.

No way would I use aluminum wiring except for high tension power lines...


Brian

I think the redundancy of multiple cables is a feature, not a bug.

You confuse having individual wires for every circuit all the way from source to control with redundancy -- you really should think first.  It is absolutely the case the for critical things redundancy is necessary, but that does NOT mean that every sensor and every actuator needs to have parallel runs of redundant wiring in copper or aluminum running here there and everywhere.  What redundancy means is having multiple paths for critical signal and controls.  In the topology I mention that means having area interface hubs connect to sensors and actuators and then redundant LAN's carrying that data, multiplexed, to redundant control system via different paths.


Brian
 

Offline MTTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1616
  • Country: aq
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2018, 08:53:19 pm »
Blade lost on RR engine, pilot ask passenger to say a prayer.



And Kiwi two RR engine failures.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/12/07/66537/photos-air-nzs-damaged-787-engine
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 08:58:59 pm by MT »
 

Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9485
  • Country: gb
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2018, 08:15:06 pm »
I still feel more comfortable seated in a row that is not in-line with the engines.   :scared:

Me too, although injuries resulting from uncontained turbine engine failures are exceedingly rare, I haven't looked at the stats but probably up there somewhere with getting struck by lightning.

I did find it interesting sitting directly across from the prop on a Q400 though, I could clearly watch the pitch change with the throttle setting.

I know it's a 737-700, not a 787, but nasty things do indeed happen occasionally when you're sitting near an engine!  :(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43803340
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline raptor1956

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 869
  • Country: us
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2018, 08:37:55 pm »
I still feel more comfortable seated in a row that is not in-line with the engines.   :scared:

Me too, although injuries resulting from uncontained turbine engine failures are exceedingly rare, I haven't looked at the stats but probably up there somewhere with getting struck by lightning.

I did find it interesting sitting directly across from the prop on a Q400 though, I could clearly watch the pitch change with the throttle setting.

I know it's a 737-700, not a 787, but nasty things do indeed happen occasionally when you're sitting near an engine!  :(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43803340

In this latest case it wasn't a RR engine but a CFM engine.


Brian
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2018, 02:08:59 am »
Life is filled with risks, engine failures like this do happen but they are extremely rare. Thousands of airliners are in the air every single day and events like this are so rare that they make front page news when it happens.
 

Offline brucehoult

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4028
  • Country: nz
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2018, 02:15:22 am »
Someday I hope I can fly in a 787 because I read people feel better in them.  Over 500 in service and no crashes.

The B787 and A380 both have higher cabin pressure (6000 ft altitude instead of 8000 ft) and slower pressure changes and higher humidity than older airliners. I believe the new A350 is the same. The A380 is also extremely quiet inside, even on takeoff and climb. I've heard the A350 is the same, and the B787 is much quieter than older planes but not as good as the A350 & A380.

No A380 crashes to date as well. There aren't as many of them, but being bigger and older they may well have carried as many or more passengers as B787.

I've not yet had the chance to fly on a B787 but I've had dozens of flights on A380s between {Auckland,Christchurch}-{Sydney,Melbourne}-Dubai, Dubai-Moscow, Dubai-Seoul, {Frankfurt,CDG}-San Francisco.

I'll note that airline matters. QANTAS/Lufthansa/Air France 380s are all better than, say, a 777, but are rubbish compared to Emirates. Seats, entertainment system, food/service, decor. Everything.

I hear AirNZ have started to put 787s on some Auckland-Christchurch flights, so I might get a chance to try one sometime -- albeit on a flight short enough that I'd be happy to stand the whole way.

I'm going to do a fair bit of Auckland-San Francisco this year, but sadly AirNZ has 777 on that route, not 787. Unless I go Auckland-Honolulu-LAX-SFO. Ugh.
 
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2018, 03:22:56 am »
I haven't been on a 787 yet but I've seen several of them fly over, they have a really unusual sound, almost like a turboprop. The most impressive plane I've been on at this point is a 747, big, fast, all around impressive, I'll be sad to see them disappear. I've always really liked the 727 too, that was the first plane I was ever on.
 

Offline brucehoult

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4028
  • Country: nz
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2018, 06:35:48 am »
I haven't been on a 787 yet but I've seen several of them fly over, they have a really unusual sound, almost like a turboprop. The most impressive plane I've been on at this point is a 747, big, fast, all around impressive, I'll be sad to see them disappear. I've always really liked the 727 too, that was the first plane I was ever on.

Yes, I love the 747, especially the -400. My first few trips between Auckland and {Los Angeles,San Francisco} were on 747-300, which had to stop for fuel in Fiji or Hawaii. When the -400 arrived it could do it non-stop. Later I had flights on those routes on 767 and it was much slower and less comfortable.

The 747 was the comfort queen of the skies until the A380. They're still almost as good. But very expensive to run because they're hungry on fuel.
 

Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9485
  • Country: gb
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2018, 10:24:18 am »
The main difference I've found between the A3xx and the 7xx (apart from the lower cabin noise) is that, at the end of a long journey, you can be pretty much assured of a feather-bed landing - the 7xx feel a bit like an expensive bit of test gear being dumped on the runway by a dodgy courier. Oh, that and the much brighter looking cabin plastics.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline brucehoult

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4028
  • Country: nz
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2018, 09:53:04 am »
Also, the B737/B757 fuselage is *significantly* narrower than the A320 one, forcing narrower seats and/or aisle with the same 3-3 seating arrangement.
 

Offline stj

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2155
  • Country: gb
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2018, 03:09:06 pm »
aljazeera has been western owned for many years,

as for boeing,
there was another film a few years ago, i think it was 60minutes.
a whistleblower on the production line of the 737 i think it was - complete with secret video.
miss-fitting frames assembled with sledge hammers.
it turned out that the company had outsourced for parts, and some company with "laser cutting" and "very high precision manufacturing."
turned out to be a shed full of mexicans making stuff by hand.
boeing didnt want to throw away the components they had recieved - so they MADE them fit!!!
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Boeing787 a motherfucker!(words from Boeing assembler).
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2018, 03:25:09 pm »
aljazeera has been western owned for many years,

as for boeing,
there was another film a few years ago, i think it was 60minutes.
a whistleblower on the production line of the 737 i think it was - complete with secret video.
miss-fitting frames assembled with sledge hammers.
it turned out that the company had outsourced for parts, and some company with "laser cutting" and "very high precision manufacturing."
turned out to be a shed full of mexicans making stuff by hand.
boeing didnt want to throw away the components they had recieved - so they MADE them fit!!!
It took some digging, but I found the story. You paraphrased it a bit, but the gist of it seems there. Link to archived page.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170520072020/https://www.brandeis.edu/investigate/political-social-justice/boeing-parts-scandal.html
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf