Author Topic: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?  (Read 10436 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BeaminTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1567
  • Country: us
  • If you think my Boobs are big you should see my ba
Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« on: August 19, 2018, 11:23:11 pm »
Or do you need a special tool to handle them and use solder paste. Does hot air just blow them away? I have a feeling someone here will say they soldered them with a soldering gun and plumbers solder all the time.


The circular caps are smaller then most for scale. I think they are 0203
Max characters: 300; characters remaining: 191
Images in your signature must be no greater than 500x25 pixels
 

Offline Nusa

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2416
  • Country: us
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2018, 11:33:43 pm »
Anyone who uses plumbers solder on electronics isn't going to have working electronics for very long.

But yes, it's possible to hand-solder those. Most would need vision enhancement to get it right. From what you've said about your vision in previous threads, you certainly would!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 11:36:23 pm by Nusa »
 

Offline Syntax_Error

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 204
  • Country: us
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2018, 11:36:02 pm »
Watching lots of Louis Rossmann's videos shows him solder just about any size component with nearly whatever he damn well pleases. This is a bit of an exaggeration, but not too great a stretch. He uses hot air and an iron as he chooses, and I have watched videos of him using either or both to solder both tiny and large components.

TL:DR, it can be done. 0203 is so small, and I have not tried it myself. But maybe try with a small iron tip and see what you learn?
It's perfectly acceptable to not know something in the short term. To continue to not know over the long term is just laziness.
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16792
  • Country: lv
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2018, 11:50:24 pm »
Watching lots of Louis Rossmann's videos shows him solder just about any size component with nearly whatever he damn well pleases. This is a bit of an exaggeration, but not too great a stretch. He uses hot air and an iron as he chooses, and I have watched videos of him using either or both to solder both tiny and large components.

TL:DR, it can be done. 0203 is so small, and I have not tried it myself. But maybe try with a small iron tip and see what you learn?
His soldering skills are frankly crap and he admitted it himself many times. It makes me cringe every time when he solders QFN with applying excessive amount of solder on a center pad first and then pushing IC on top, forcing solder to squeeze out  :wtf:. Also he uses order of magnitude more flux than needed but it does not matter much as it gets cleaned away anyway.

As of 0201, if using solder paste and not too high airflow, holding the component is not needed. Otherwise hold it with tweezers until solder melts, then liquid solder surface tension will be enough to keep component in place. Frankly soldering 0201 is not that tough, 01005 is when it gets tricky.
EDIT: I think you mean 0201, not 0203 which does not exist.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 11:55:37 pm by wraper »
 

Offline schmitt trigger

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2205
  • Country: mx
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2018, 11:56:08 pm »
The most common, nearest Standard sizes are 0201 (0603 Metric) or 0402 (1005 Metric).

But even those are large compared to the 01005 (0402 Metric).

EDIT:wraper responded faster than myself.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 11:58:15 pm by schmitt trigger »
 

Offline BeaminTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1567
  • Country: us
  • If you think my Boobs are big you should see my ba
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2018, 06:23:31 pm »
Anyone who uses plumbers solder on electronics isn't going to have working electronics for very long.

But yes, it's possible to hand-solder those. Most would need vision enhancement to get it right. From what you've said about your vision in previous threads, you certainly would!

That is a picture I took with my cell phone of my magnifier's screen with my lap top under it. At full zoon a 1/8 watt resistor is magnified to 18" long. You can also turn it to black and white and high contrast to see things you normally couldn't like the laser etching on parts. It uses both opical and digital zoom with a table under it that has an electromagnetic lock to keep the work in place. Costs a few grand but worth it.


I'm not sure of the actual size of those three parts in the picture. They are almost invisible to the naked eye and didn't even know they existed until I got the magnifier. How would you figure out polarity take then out of the package and remember because once you put it down there is no way of knowing? 
« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 06:28:21 pm by Beamin »
Max characters: 300; characters remaining: 191
Images in your signature must be no greater than 500x25 pixels
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16792
  • Country: lv
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2018, 06:35:53 pm »
None of those parts have polarity. Parts which have polarity do have some sort of polarity marking. Also they generally don't come in really small sizes.
 

Offline capt bullshot

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3033
  • Country: de
    • Mostly useless stuff, but nice to have: wunderkis.de
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2018, 07:36:10 pm »
Yes, been there, done that (but using a reasonable sized tip and 1mm solder). Anyway, no fun for my "old" eyes, ten years ago I'd have said "peace of cake". I wouldn't recommend paste and manually applied hot air, the iron works better.

Safety devices hinder evolution
 

Offline mdszy

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 291
  • Country: us
  • somehow has an ee degree
    • szy.io
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2018, 07:45:40 pm »
If these SMD challenge boards are anything to go off of, seems like anything is possible if you're willing to try ;)

somehow allowed to be a Pixie Wrangler in Training
eBay Store | My site | Hackaday.io Projects | my mastodon.technology profile
 
The following users thanked this post: Zucca

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16792
  • Country: lv
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2018, 07:46:08 pm »
I wouldn't recommend paste and manually applied hot air, the iron works better.
Solder iron certainly won't work better for solder joint quality. Also MLCCs experience a lot of stress and may develop microcracks when soldered by iron, it should be avoided when possible.
 

Offline technix

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3507
  • Country: cn
  • From Shanghai With Love
    • My Untitled Blog
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2018, 10:20:07 pm »
Painstaking but doable. You will need vision enhancement and a steady hand.

For me I have no worse than 20/20 vision so no vision enhancement other than a 15W LED lamp on a moveable balanced arm lamp is needed most of the time. Steady hand takes exercise really.
 

Offline BeaminTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1567
  • Country: us
  • If you think my Boobs are big you should see my ba
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2018, 10:25:15 pm »
I wonder what is next beyond 01005. They must run into limitations like cap size and max resistor heat dissipation. But fine in the world of 1.3 volt logic chips. Does the pick and place have tiny 01005 adapters and use electrostatic attraction instead of vacuum?

Do the SMD resistors have a watt rating? Or is the idea that all these parts will just have small logic level signals and power rated components will be large surface or through hole.


I was looking at my SDRPlay that uses around 01005 and figuring out its size if it was through hole. Would be big; like 8" X 8" to hold those parts on one board. Some day I will make a circuit with through hole and all the way down to 0201 like that SMD challenge board. What was I thinking giving away my B&W laser printer!
Max characters: 300; characters remaining: 191
Images in your signature must be no greater than 500x25 pixels
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16792
  • Country: lv
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2018, 10:27:45 pm »
I wonder what is next beyond 01005.
008004





« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 10:30:38 pm by wraper »
 

Offline BeaminTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1567
  • Country: us
  • If you think my Boobs are big you should see my ba
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2018, 10:30:05 pm »
I like how the parts get really sloppy down small. MrCarlson would go nuts to see such crooked parts.
Max characters: 300; characters remaining: 191
Images in your signature must be no greater than 500x25 pixels
 

Offline boB

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 307
  • Country: us
    • my work www
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2018, 10:38:29 pm »

Make sure you have a good pair of tweezers !

boB
K7IQ
 

Online coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9234
  • Country: us
  • $
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2018, 01:06:02 am »
yea position it first with a microapplication of super glue then touch it with the smallest tip you got on both sides, the only problem is that the surface tension is really big.

If you can pin it down with a long flat nose needle so it does not get dragged towards the iron that works too, its pretty easy if the PCB is made right

like flatten a thin needle down on a diamond file so you can hold it at a 45 degree angle with a flat surface pressing the component into the PCB, then solder one side down, get a good vantage point and solder the other side down. Flux will help you alot.

Also make a handle for your needle so you can hold it comfortably. Like press it into a plastic stick or glue it to something.

You might wanna stick your board ontop of a ball of playdough or something to prevent deflectionin and popcorning when you do this operation because it can easily jump if you tension the board inside of a typical soldering vise. Position it with tweezers first.

You can probobly do the smallest one there by hand but you would need to carefully make a tool to tension it and probobly make some kind of doodad to hold your tension rod in place with, I don't think you will manage that by hand.

Also be sure to flame clean the needle before hand to get rid of any sticky oils and keep it polished to prevent the part from sticking to it. I would recommend using ceramic tweezers for positioning, and to keep a butane torch on hand so you can heat the tweezers to red hot for a full surface clean (let em cool obviously) before positioning, any kind of oil buildup will fuck you up and make the part stick to the tweezers and annoy the hell out of you.

I managed to make a LED ringlight on veroboard with 0201 parts before IIRC, using the crappiest tools to wedge fluxed parts into molten flux blobs.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 01:16:08 am by coppercone2 »
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16792
  • Country: lv
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2018, 01:14:32 am »
yea position it first with a microapplication of super glue then touch it with the smallest tip you got on both sides, the only problem is that the surface tension is really big.
Superglue under SMT, are you crazy? Not only you won't be able to apply it without covering nearby pads of such small part (will cause soldering problems), it will also burn with really nasty fumes once heated. Not to say it's a little bit conductive.
 

Online coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9234
  • Country: us
  • $
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2018, 01:16:49 am »
I said microapplication. Like dip a fine needle into super glue and tap it on the part. It takes skill. I think I used the 'ultra thin' super glue for this

If the board is crappy you can glue some thread to it using the same technique to make a little mound to put the part ontop of so that you don't need a big glob of glue (like building a little cribbing).

I wonder if you can use wax actually. I won't lie, it smells awful and burns your eyes if you don't use ventilation. I use super glue for holding metal together during tac welding too, with gas no less  >:D

You can build 3d terrain features with different consistences of super glue using fine needles to apply it. I have ultra thin (thinner then water), regular, gel and ultra gel. You can use baking soda dusting to prevent it from expanding into a puddle because it will cure extremely fast also.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 01:22:29 am by coppercone2 »
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16792
  • Country: lv
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2018, 01:22:01 am »
As of retaining component in place while soldering with iron. Apply a little bit of solder on one pad. Apply some flux (gel or liquid) place the part with tweezers. Solder end with solder applied. Then solder other end. No glue or other unnecessary crap and useless manipulations. Larger part on the video but process is the same.

 

Online coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9234
  • Country: us
  • $
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2018, 01:23:17 am »
I find the smallest of parts tend to like to move because of the flux boiling

Which tweezers do you use for 0201 parts? My best swanstroms seem too big, I did not have them when I was working with such fine parts.
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16792
  • Country: lv
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2018, 01:28:15 am »
I said microapplication. Like dip a fine needle into super glue and tap it on the part. It takes skill. I think I used the 'ultra thin' super glue for this
0201 footprint has around 0.3 mm in between of the pads. Reliably placing glue in that gap without it bleeding on the pads is not possible. If it won't bleed while you placing the pad, it will once you place a component on top. Also as I said you should keep superglue out of electronics as it's conductive. But when heated it no longer holds. And with such small part glue will overheat immediately.
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16792
  • Country: lv
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2018, 01:30:03 am »
Which tweezers do you use for 0201 parts? My best swanstroms seem too big, I did not have them when I was working with such fine parts.
I have no problem holding 0201. With 01005 it's an issue though as part is smaller than ends of fine tweezers.
 

Online coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9234
  • Country: us
  • $
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2018, 01:35:00 am »
I said microapplication. Like dip a fine needle into super glue and tap it on the part. It takes skill. I think I used the 'ultra thin' super glue for this
0201 footprint has around 0.3 mm in between of the pads. Reliably placing glue in that gap without it bleeding on the pads is not possible. If it won't bleed while you placing the pad, it will once you place a component on top. Also as I said you should keep superglue out of electronics as it's conductive. But when heated it no longer holds. And with such small part glue will overheat immediately.

you can't really put glue on the part, I mean you make a kind of knife edge on the pcb area under it, like by brushing it with a wire that is pulled out of a high density cable (like flexible multimeter cable) to make a super glue mound, that you put the part ontop of, when its a bit wet.

The bond is very weak. I mean it literarly like micro-3d printing a little tower with your hands, not a single application that would deform.

36AWG is 0.1 mm for instance

You kind of need to let the glue cure a tiny bit, depending on the initial consistancy, to be able to do a layer-raise wipe that does not spill out and contact the pads, under some magnification

Maybe I can take a picture to explain better, let me see if I can find a thin enough wire strand. I tend to avoid these parts anyway because they don't offer me any benefit. I have a transformer somewhere that was wound with incredibly thin wire which I used as a brush element.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 01:42:00 am by coppercone2 »
 

Online coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9234
  • Country: us
  • $
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2018, 02:01:30 am »
Need a thinner wire to demonstrate the capability, this glue I have is spreading too much on me. If I find one I will update. Smallest I have is 0.12mm, too large, I can definatly file this overside bead down to the right dimension though.

also helps if you get the wire work hardened. And you dip it in baking soda water to quickly harden it. I think the loctite gel control will do better, I only have the liquid control one. IIRC the ultra gel is too much. Then when you sculpt the mound you use the ultra-thin to paint it and to make the glue bond.

Maybe I will try a wire brush bristle if I can find one small enough, from the dremel wheel perhaps
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 02:11:44 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12288
  • Country: au
Re: Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2018, 02:32:10 am »
Have done 0402 and I picked up some random 0201 to try my hand with them - but haven't gotten around to having a go with them yet.

My biggest problem has been making sure they don't get lost.  This silicon sand can disappear on even bare wooden floors.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf