Canyou handsolder 0203 SMD parts?

[coppercone2]

I just got an interesting idea, I feel like an idiot doing what I was doing.


So long the board is pretty clean and does not already have large parts on it, you might be able to dip a very thin wire thats long into the thinnest super glue, press it on top of the part across the dielectric, wire it down by twisting the wire over the entire board, solder, remove the wire, and optionally grind away the remaining super glue off the top of the part with your most fine file.

Conceptually it seems easy to align and everything, especially if you stick the part down on some thing mushy (like the silicone tape that is used inside of plasma tv's to hold the screen. Since the wire is very long compared to the part dielectric width you can do hand adjustments to center it properly, if you hold it like a garrote. Huff and puff on the part when you make the right contact to solidify the glue a bit,.

MMm you can do those bastard filters and capacitors this way that have a fucking two grounds, like x2y

like this



I also like using magnet wire to make near bundles for wire-wire joints, you interlock two wires so the fingers go into eachother, wrap it tight with magnet wire, flux it and solder it, and the magnet wire pulls right off and makes a nice tight fillet thats more compact then premade solder sleeves

maybe you can make something like those dental floss plastic things for flossing your teeth without having to use your hands too so you can just tension a part down. Hell this could be useful for QFN even.

[KL27x]

he solders QFN with applying excessive amount of solder on a center pad first and then pushing IC on top, forcing solder to squeeze out  .

This works great. If you put too little solder on the central pad, it can get stuck to the board and not center itself. If you're doing a lot at a time in a batch, you can try to get closer to the mark. But if you do the odd one here or there for a repair, I suggest the bigger the glob; the quicker the job. Too much solder is never a problem with QFN. As long as you have a microscope to view the surrounding pads/parts. Too little solder can waste a lot of time.

Beamin: hand soldering with an iron is very easy. You're only limited by the fineness of your tweezers and your vision.

The challenging part is the handling - getting the part from the tape onto the fluxed PCB. When you get down to that small a part, you need a very small pickup needle, and it will need frequent cleaning/replacement. And trying to pick them up with tweezers BEFORE you get them under the microscope and slathered in flux is just not a good use of your time. For every part you get on the board, you will blink 2 out of existence.

There's no need for superglue. Any flux will do. The first time you touch them with tweezers or attempt to align them should be immediately followed by tacking with the iron. Why align with superglue, at all? Just wasted time.

[wraper]

he solders QFN with applying excessive amount of solder on a center pad first and then pushing IC on top, forcing solder to squeeze out  .

This works great. If you put too little solder on the central pad, it can get stuck to the board and not center itself. If you're doing a lot at a time in a batch, you can try to get closer to the mark. But if you do the odd one here or there for a repair, I suggest the bigger the glob; the quicker the job. Too much solder is never a problem with QFN. As long as you have a microscope to view the surrounding pads/parts. Too little solder can waste a lot of time.

It's not great at all, and he spends 10x more time than needed to solder QFN. If you solder as often as him, you should really have the feeling of right amount of solder on a center pad. Starting from 6th minute, torturing a single poor chip for another 6 minutes after old one was already removed,  . He effin does the same even with tantallum polymer capacitors. Every time I watch, it's like "why are you doing all this crap, just apply a few times less solder, and don't bother doing all of this unnecessary nonsense."  It's actually so simple just applying the right amount of solder and get the thing soldered properly on the first try and skip all of that rework with iron and reheating.

[Rerouter]

Pretty sure rossman does it on purpose now, he has made a number of callouts to us lot reacting to his soldering

As for 0201, yes defiantly can do by hand, I have even had to do 01005's after blowing them off an RF PCB i was doing rework on,  All I can say to the people that made that layout is "your PCB package has courtyards for a reason!"

I'm shortsighted, and have a very good focal range, but Even I pull out the desk magnifier with 0201's, as it just strains your eyes too quickly.

[KL27x]

If you solder as often as him, you should really have the feeling of right amount of solder on a center pad.

If you mean at the 7 minute mark, that is more or less what I would put on there. Or let's say that's the minimum I'd aim to put on there. Rather than buying super thin solderwire to solder hundreds of QFN, I spent awhile figuring out just how much solder I could glob on a QFN footprint and for it to still solder perfectly fine without requiring extra steps or making things more difficult. And it's a lot more than that.    After you squish it down, the excess goes out to the outer pads, and the perfect amount of solder is left on the center pad, holding it from popping back up. Any excess solder or bridges on the outer pads gets wiped away with the next step, anyway, the way I do it. 

If Louis takes 10 minutes to change a chip, it's because he is fixing things, not assembling a pile of boards. But more importantly, it's because his videos are not about soldering or even fixing things. They're just a vessel for him to talk. That's his greatest gift. The man can talk.



 

[wraper]

If you solder as often as him, you should really have the feeling of right amount of solder on a center pad.

If you mean at the 7 minute mark, that is more or less what I would put on there. Or let's say that's the minimum I'd aim to put on there. Rather than buying super thin solderwire to solder hundreds of QFN, I spent awhile figuring out just how much solder I could glob on a QFN footprint and for it to still solder perfectly fine without requiring extra steps or making things more difficult. And it's a lot more than that.    After you squish it down, the excess goes out to the outer pads, and the perfect amount of solder is left on the center pad, holding it from popping back up. Any excess solder or bridges on the outer pads gets wiped away with the next step, anyway, the way I do it. 

If Louis takes 10 minutes to change a chip, it's because he is fixing things, not assembling a pile of boards. But more importantly, it's because his videos are not about soldering or even fixing things. They're just a vessel for him to talk. That's his greatest gift. The man can talk.

It's certainly not a perfect amount of solder. QFN should stay a bit above the PCB, not completely down the bottom like after squeezing the solder. Soldering such chip would take me a minute (or 2 tops if I'm not in hurry), without all those extra manipulations, without multiple reheating causing stress, without multiple flux application and result would look nicer. And I would be 100% sure there are no shorts under the chip.

[b_force]

If you solder as often as him, you should really have the feeling of right amount of solder on a center pad.

If you mean at the 7 minute mark, that is more or less what I would put on there. Or let's say that's the minimum I'd aim to put on there. Rather than buying super thin solderwire to solder hundreds of QFN, I spent awhile figuring out just how much solder I could glob on a QFN footprint and for it to still solder perfectly fine without requiring extra steps or making things more difficult. And it's a lot more than that.    After you squish it down, the excess goes out to the outer pads, and the perfect amount of solder is left on the center pad, holding it from popping back up. Any excess solder or bridges on the outer pads gets wiped away with the next step, anyway, the way I do it. 

If Louis takes 10 minutes to change a chip, it's because he is fixing things, not assembling a pile of boards. But more importantly, it's because his videos are not about soldering or even fixing things. They're just a vessel for him to talk. That's his greatest gift. The man can talk.

No offence, but I sometimes wonder if people read properly?
That was clearly not his point.
His point was just to give an example, not to judge the person about it and discus the reasons that are out of the subject.
The example is about how it should NOT be done.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Soldering is about the flow, literally and figuratively speaking.
I always compare it to paint or varnish, that also naturally "flows" to a nice smooth surface.
Like it fills the caps automatically.
Soldering is more or less the same.

I see so many people trying to use it like some sort of glue (some other Youtuber in particular  ). 
Let it flow mon!

[b_force]

If you solder as often as him, you should really have the feeling of right amount of solder on a center pad.

If you mean at the 7 minute mark, that is more or less what I would put on there. Or let's say that's the minimum I'd aim to put on there. Rather than buying super thin solderwire to solder hundreds of QFN, I spent awhile figuring out just how much solder I could glob on a QFN footprint and for it to still solder perfectly fine without requiring extra steps or making things more difficult. And it's a lot more than that.    After you squish it down, the excess goes out to the outer pads, and the perfect amount of solder is left on the center pad, holding it from popping back up. Any excess solder or bridges on the outer pads gets wiped away with the next step, anyway, the way I do it. 

If Louis takes 10 minutes to change a chip, it's because he is fixing things, not assembling a pile of boards. But more importantly, it's because his videos are not about soldering or even fixing things. They're just a vessel for him to talk. That's his greatest gift. The man can talk.

It's certainly not a perfect amount of solder. QFN should stay a bit above the PCB, not completely down the bottom like after squeezing the solder. Soldering such chip would take me a minute (or 2 tops if I'm not in hurry), without all those extra manipulations, without multiple reheating causing stress, without multiple flux application and result would look nicer. And I would be 100% sure there are no shorts under the chip.

I have worked with chips that are already done and fried after so many minutes of heating.

I personally never get the extreme amount of extra flux people add. 

[wraper]

No offence, but I sometimes wonder if people read properly?
That was clearly not his point.
His point was just to give an example, not to judge the person about it and discus the reasons that are out of the subject.
The example is about how it should NOT be done.
Nothing more, nothing less.

I commented about Louis' soldering only because he was mentioned previously as example. Although he does a great job, he certainly is not a person who you should take as example for learning soldering. You won't learn how to solder properly and will develop bad habits.

[KL27x]

QFN should stay a bit above the PCB, not completely down the bottom like after squeezing the solder.

It doesn't stick to the board off center, and that's all that matters to me. The squeeze out is nothing to worry over. No pins with tall shoulder for the solder to suck up into. Worrying about too much solder on the center pad when hot air reflowing is like worrying about snow in Miami. 

Taking too long, that's another matter, entirely. But getting people to watch how he can do just about anything, that is surely helpful for a lot of people.

* I don't always agree when he gets overly opinionated on the specifics of how/why/what. As you have said, he has admitted many times his soldering is not great. But you wouldn't know he had said anything like that the 99% of the time he isn't saying it, lol. 

[wraper]

QFN should stay a bit above the PCB, not completely down the bottom like after squeezing the solder.

It doesn't stick to the board off center, and that's all that matters to me. The squeeze out is nothing to worry over. No pins with tall shoulder for the solder to suck up into. Worrying about too much solder on the center pad when hot air reflowing is like worrying about snow in Miami. 

Taking too long, that's another matter, entirely. But getting people to watch how he can do just about anything, that is surely helpful for a lot of people.

Please tell me why would you do substandard soldering when you could do it up to spec with less time and effort spent? You could watch him to learn troubleshooting but for soldering look somewhere else. It's amazing how many people solder badly after being in business for decades when it would take only a few days to learn soldering properly under a good guidance.

[KL27x]

^Anyone ever tell you you're a bit of a hot head? 

Please tell me why would you do substandard soldering when you could do it up to spec with less time and effort spent?

Why would you call that substandard? Are you worried about mechanical or electrical connection? And have you done any failure testing? Have you actually measured the height of the solder joints of your QFN's after soldering? And with what equipment do you do that? 

[b_force]

I have a very different opinion about the man in question, but let's not go there.
It's very offtopic.

I agree with wraper.
With a proper technique you can easily solder small SMD parts by hand.
But I believe even in something else.
The main issue most people have is lack of patience.
I have taught many interns to solder, and I can very clearly see the difference between guys who have patience and the once that don't.
Even when using the same techniques

[b_force]

^Anyone ever tell you you're a bit of a hot head? 

An hot head?

I would call it difference in culture.
He is simply to the point.

[wraper]

Why would you call that substandard? Are you worried about mechanical or electrical connection? And have you done any failure testing? Have you actually measured the height of the solder joints of your QFN's after soldering? And with what equipment do you do that? 

Even if we take out the quality of solder joins themselves, the thermal stress applied to the chip most likely exceeded the spec given in the datasheet. Also too thin solder means less stress relief for thermal cycling.

[CJay]

Please tell me why would you do substandard soldering when you could do it up to spec with less time and effort spent? You could watch him to learn troubleshooting but for soldering look somewhere else. It's amazing how many people solder badly after being in business for decades when it would take only a few days to learn soldering properly under a good guidance.

The bad soldering on so many Youtube videos makes me cringe, there are so few who can solder well.

I personally never get the extreme amount of extra flux people add. 

Flux everywhere, there are some really skilled technicians who *flood* boards with flux and still make really bad solder joints (probably because of the excessive quantities of flux), it's really frustrating to watch because they insist it's necessary.

[b_force]

Please tell me why would you do substandard soldering when you could do it up to spec with less time and effort spent? You could watch him to learn troubleshooting but for soldering look somewhere else. It's amazing how many people solder badly after being in business for decades when it would take only a few days to learn soldering properly under a good guidance.

The bad soldering on so many Youtube videos makes me cringe, there are so few who can solder well.

I personally never get the extreme amount of extra flux people add. 

Flux everywhere, there are some really skilled technicians who *flood* boards with flux and still make really bad solder joints (probably because of the excessive quantities of flux), it's really frustrating to watch because they insist it's necessary.

What I even understand less is that when you point this out about those "skilled technicians", people get all huffy puffy and telling you're being rude? 

[CJay]

Flux everywhere, there are some really skilled technicians who *flood* boards with flux and still make really bad solder joints (probably because of the excessive quantities of flux), it's really frustrating to watch because they insist it's necessary.

What I even understand less is that when you point this out about those "skilled technicians", people get all huffy puffy and telling you're being rude? 

I tend to believe those technicians (and they are skilled, just not at soldering) make people believe soldering well is way more difficult than it is, it does take practice and skill but soldering well is nowhere near as difficult as it's made out to be, just needs some training and patience.

[KL27x]

I, FWIW, am not huffy nor puffy. Just curious.

I figured, Wraper, you be thinking along the lines of thermal cycling. I concede this is not a concern I have experience with. I've never used QFN for high power parts. Just control circuitry. It's interesting information for sure.

As for thermal stress of soldering, I am not sure what you mean. Or maybe you meant the 10 minutes of messing around... I admit I didn't watch that part. I just scrolled through the vid to see the center pad thing. 

But I believe even in something else.
The main issue most people have is lack of patience.

If I'm paid by the hour, I have all the patience in the world to do it however the boss wants. I've taught a few employees some tricks as an outside consultant, and this is the problem. They don't care how long it takes to do it "their way." Some things stick, some don't. The employee, especially the new ones, aren't the ones to know the failure rate or even the desired life cycle of the product. Or if the QFN is the weak link to any statistical significance to begin with. They have their way they can do without thinking, and it has got them thus far, and maybe just don't want to learn. I wouldn't want my employee to worry about thermal cycling unless I am worried about thermal cycling.

The most experienced soldered I have known was a professional for many years. He brought his own Metcal to work. The only one at this particular company to use his own equipment. But man he was a turtle, and set in his ways. I wonder if he soldered for NASA.

[b_force]

I, FWIW, am not huffy nor puffy. Just curious.

I figured, Wraper, you be thinking along the lines of thermal cycling. I concede this is not a concern I have experience with. I've never used QFN for high power parts. Just control circuitry. It's interesting information for sure.

As for thermal stress of soldering, I am not sure what you mean. Or maybe you meant the 10 minutes of messing around... I admit I didn't watch that part. I just scrolled through the vid to see the center pad thing. 

But I believe even in something else.
The main issue most people have is lack of patience.

If I'm paid by the hour, I have all the patience in the world to do it however the boss wants. I've taught a few employees some tricks as an outside consultant, and this is the problem. They don't care how long it takes to do it "their way." Some things stick, some don't. The employee, especially the new ones, aren't the ones to know the failure rate or even the desired life cycle of the product. They have their way they can do without thinking, and it has got them thus far. I wouldn't want my employee to worry about thermal cycling unless I am worried about thermal cycling.

That's not the type of patience I am talking about.
I am talking about the lack of it. So the feel that people just want it done quickly.
Not literally speaking, you can still be as quick and fast WITH patience.

Thermal stress means that you will damage the part you're soldering by applying to much heat for to long.
10 minutes of heating is an awful lot.

Sometimes even solder pads and PCB tracks will get loose pretty quickly.
I guess Louis may be lucky that Apple has decent quality boards.
I know other boards (from good expensive brands) were pads will be gone and far already.

[wraper]

As for thermal stress of soldering, I am not sure what you mean. Or maybe you meant the 10 minutes of messing around... I admit I didn't watch that part. I just scrolled through the vid to see the center pad thing. 

Many parts explicitly say you can heat them up like 2 or 3 times maximum. What Louis have done is like running component through 4 reflow cycles. Yes it will work most of the time but a few components out of hundred or thousand may die and some others may be wounded thus reducing reliability over long term. I would be OK with that if there was some good justification for that but there is none. It's just more hassle with worse result.

[b_force]

As for thermal stress of soldering, I am not sure what you mean. Or maybe you meant the 10 minutes of messing around... I admit I didn't watch that part. I just scrolled through the vid to see the center pad thing. 

Many parts explicitly say you can heat them up like 2 or 3 times maximum. What Louis have done is like running component through 4 reflow cycles. Yes it will work most of the time but a few components out of hundred or thousand may die and some others may be wounded thus reducing reliability over long term. I would be OK with that if there was some good justification for that but there is none. It's just more hassle with worse result.

Worse is even when your part looks and tests fine.
But because you already thermally stressed it so much it has become some sort of ticking time bomb.
I actually have experienced this with one of our suppliers.
They soldered some opto-couplers a little to hot, worked fine in the factory but ALL of them died somewhere in the next two years.
Obviously some parts are more prone to this than others.

[KL27x]

Thermal stress means that you will damage the part you're soldering by applying to much heat for to long.
10 minutes of heating is an awful lot.

Ok, so the amount of solder isn't in question regarding this thermal stress, then? Thanks for your input. I wonder if Wraper agrees.

Sometimes even solder pads and PCB tracks will get loose pretty quickly.
I guess Louis may be lucky that Apple has decent quality boards.

For surely, he knows the pain of replacing a broken board. And he knows how often a customer comes back with a problem within his warranty period. He probably hears from them beyond warranty, too. Everyone who cares about time and money solders for a specific purpose, not just to solder the best they possibly can. In some cases, the concerns you might get hung up on may not be the statistical weak link by a long shot, if even a concern to begin with.

The reason I have learned to solder QFN this way was primarily because it was the most repeatable and efficient way for me to do it, and I am not paid by the hour. If there develops a problem, at least it should be consistent. Lucky me, the bulk of my QFN hand soldering was done a low temp part/board which will be obsolete within 10 years, anyway. I'll be glad to have learned about this thermal cycling issue at some point, I'm sure. 

[wraper]

Thermal stress means that you will damage the part you're soldering by applying to much heat for to long.
10 minutes of heating is an awful lot.

Ok, so the amount of solder isn't in question regarding this thermal stress, then? Thanks for your input. I wonder if Wraper agrees.

But it will affect strain when thermal cycling and warping the board. And not only solder joints themselves but also IC package. Is not some invulnerable fortress which does not care about external mechanical forces applied. Don't forget that QFN or MLCC caps don't have flexible leads to absorb mechanical strain. It's hard to quantify the effect of this, but it's better keep safe, especially when there is no additional effort.

[b_force]

Thermal stress means that you will damage the part you're soldering by applying to much heat for to long.
10 minutes of heating is an awful lot.

Ok, so the amount of solder isn't in question regarding this thermal stress, then? Thanks for your input. I wonder if Wraper agrees.

But it will affect strain when thermal cycling and warping the board. And not only solder joints themselves but also IC package. Is not some invulnerable fortress which does not care about external mechanical forces applied. Don't forget that QFN or MLCC caps don't have flexible leads to absorb mechanical strain. It's hard to quantify the effect of this, but it's better keep safe, especially when there is no additional effort.

In simple words.
Materials expand and contract with changes in temperature.
This is no different for an IC