Chevy Bolt concept - 200 mile range, $30,000

[dannyf]

go read it yourself: http://www.nissan-offers.co.uk/new-vehicles/leaf

Maybe you should take that advice yourself?

Q: who makes that "Optional Final Payment"?

Choices: You or Nissan?

[dannyf]

It's just the way it works in the UK.

No. It is just the way you DON't understand the contract.

[tom66]

Q: who makes that "Optional Final Payment"?

Either...

If you make it, you then own the car. You've bought it off the finance company. Since the finance company is usually Nissan themselves, you've just essentially leased a car then bought it, it becomes a hire-purchase agreement. Although usually more expensive than just a normal HP agreement, plus you have one large payment at the end which isn't covered by monthly installments.

If you don't make it, then you don't own the car. You return it to the dealership and the dealer will then sell it as a used car or lease it again or use it as a courtesy/loaner car or do something else with it.

This is a pretty common arrangement in the UK. You can also get a car via hire-purchase. This acts similarly to the lease but you own the car in the end and the final payment is much smaller. I believe the rate is generally a little higher and there are no mileage or wear and tear limits (though if you default they'll take the car to cover the cost - if it's badly damaged they'll want extra costs.)

Tesla have a finance agreement on their cars, which are usually 60 month loans. At months 36-39 you can sell the car back to Tesla for the remaining principal at a guaranteed figure, they don't pay you anything as they just write off the part of the loan covered by the resale guarantee.

Lots of financial fudging but it makes some cars much more affordable than they would actually be.

[cimmo]

No. It is just the way you DON't understand the contract.

The know it all has spoken.
Why does anyone bother engaging with him once he has bestowed his wisdom?

[dannyf]

Either...

You should also insist the incompetent and wasteful government invest your money for you,

[Wilksey]

I must be honest, Nissan's everyday car market for me is like Marmite.
I used to have a Primera GT, which I thought for it's time, the styling was pretty nice, then they bought out the new Primera, and it kind of went down hill from there for me (personal opinion).  Now what with the Cube, Juke, Qashqai, newer Micra's and now the Micra++ (Leaf ) I do not get their styling at all, the GTR thankfully has definately improved with age.

It's like BMW decided to split their car ranges to 2 series, 4 series etc, which are basically 1 and 3 series cabriolet and coupes, kind of a unnecessary (for Joe public, not for their profits) money making scheme in my eyes.

For my everyday needs electric cars have to have been around for more than a few years to get proper feedback and results for them to be a replacement for Diesel or Petrol, so many things to go wrong, at least with a mechanical engine you can jump start (or hill start) and if there is a power malfunction it just takes your clock out on you radio, hybrids were seemingly a "good idea" but even they haven't had much market exposure, seems the Prius has taken the market share, not many people know Honda make a few Hybrids for example but everyone has heard of a Prius for some reason or another.

[dannyf]

I had always been a Nissan fan, until recently. Owned a 510, 280ZTurbo, a couple 300ZX. Loved every single one of them. Always wanted to own a Cedric / Gloria, never had a chance.

Had a G37X briefly and a terribly engineered car: soft at high speed and harsh at low speed, a transmission that hunts for the right gear always at the wrong time.

I hope one day they could bring back those simple  and fun cars of the past.

[Wilksey]

Ahh we had the 300zx (fairlady I think was the "codename"), the 200sx, 100nx, seen a few 240's, the silvia s15, also a few under the Datsun brand in the day (Bluebird 510)!  And of course the newer 350Z and 370Z, all decent looking, fun cars, I don't know what the current offering is in other countries, but they certainly do not make them like they used to!

Edit---
I think the 240 was a Datsun branded model.

[dannyf]

Both the 240 and 280 are Datsun.

[Corporate666]

The only thing that doesn't fit is that he says he owns the car.

It's just the way it works in the UK. There are finance deals where the finance company owns the car, but this isn't one of them. You have to be careful to properly insurance a vehicle like this, because if it gets written off you still have to pay the finance loan and so you need your insurance company to pay out the full amount remaining even if they think the car is worth less.

I don't see how you can own the car - the finance company is holding the title, aren't they?  So they own the car until the title is transferred to you (presumably when the debt they paid on the car is satisfied). 

And is your payment the price of the car divided by the number of months you financed it over?  Or is your payment just the depreciation?  So if the car is $40,000 and the agreed-upon price after 2 years is $16,000.... the difference then being $24,000.  And you do this program over 2 years... are you paying $1,000 per month or $1667/mo?

[coppice]

hybrids were seemingly a "good idea" but even they haven't had much market exposure, seems the Prius has taken the market share, not many people know Honda make a few Hybrids for example but everyone has heard of a Prius for some reason or another.

Its certainly true that only Toyota (plus people it supplies drives to, like Hino vans) has achieved any success with hybrids, but they have had a lot of exposure now, and seem to stand up. Hundreds of thousands are in use, and they get used in punishing applications like taxis and police cars (though not of the high speed chase variety). You may or may not like what they offer, but they do work reliably over a number of years. For what was really a first generation attempt at doing something, using a battery technology (NiMh) with a lousy track record for long service, I am amazed who well they are standing the test of time.

[mtdoc]

Can of worms coming right up!

But ALL you're doing is moving the source of harmful emissions and pollutants from directly behind you to miles away at the regional power plant!!!

Actually no.  Even with the typical coal dominant energy mix for electricity production - efficiencies gained by driving an EV vs an ICE only vehicle mean less pollutants.

But even better - where I live in the Pacific NW - the vast majority of electricity is from Hydro power.  And for about 6 months of the year my solar PV produces enough excess electricity to charge my car if I need it to. I like being independent of the grid and the gas stations as much as possible.  But as I have said repeatedly - EVs and renewables do not solve every problem - it's only a partial solution.

[Corporate666]

Can of worms coming right up!

But ALL you're doing is moving the source of harmful emissions and pollutants from directly behind you to miles away at the regional power plant!!!

Not true.

EV's pollute substantially less.   But even if they polluted the same, it is MUCH easier to scrub air, collect pollutants and filter out impurities in a single place on a large scale where there is a staff working 24/7 to maintain that equipment and ensure it's working right, and some very deep pockets backing up that staff and the equipment who answer to groups like the EPA....

...than it is to do all those tasks at the point of use on millions upon millions of cars individually. 

That's the reason we (most of us anyway) don't grow our own food, slaughter and prepare our own cattle, make our own wine, weave our own cloth, refine our own gasoline or develop our own medicines.  These, like stopping pollution, are all things which make a lot more sense at a large scale macro level than trying to do individually.

[coppice]

Ok, technically it might not be based on the Micra, but essentially that is what it is seen as, for me there are still too many unknowns for an electric car.  Hybrid seems a bit better as you have a backup, but full electric, hmmm.

As someone pointed out, the Leaf is basically an electrified Tilda/Versa. Its a considerably bigger car than the Micra. I assume tilda is a Japanese word meaning something very ugly. I couldn't find anything nice to say about the Tilda after I had a rental one for a week, but its definitely nothing like a Micra.

[Skimask]

Ya, I know...  I just wanted to start some shit 
Regardless of the source of electricity, coal power plant, hydro, nuclear, solar, whatever, I've got no doubt that driving a full-on EV is more efficient than an ICE, in terms of pollution generated (whether it be at the source of electricity or at the source of the tailpipe for the ICE), efficiency in the power generation (mass generation of electricity by burning a fossil fuel vs. generation of horsepower to turn wheels by burning a fossil fuel), and a thousand other factors.
Heck, I'm even in the camp that still wants to use Pb batteries in EV's if only because a PB battery is damn near almost 100% recyclable.  Of course they don't have the AH capacity or charge/discharge cycle capability of other technologies (NiMH, LiPo, whatever), but facts are facts that you can't recycle the material in a NiMH or LiPo battery nearly as easily or cheaply as you can a Pb battery.  And, sure, I believe in the future, the technology will advance far enough to make recycling old NiMH or LiPo packs as efficient, cheap, and easy as Pb batteries...but I don't think the world as a whole is there quite yet.  I think that's another place where a combination of technologies might be a good thing.  Something along the lines of using LiPo batt's for bulk storage and Pb batt's for massive intermittent juice dumps...go easy on the LiPo's, beat the hell out the Pb's.
But that's just me...I'm weird that way...

[coppice]

Heck, I'm even in the camp that still wants to use Pb batteries in EV's if only because a PB battery is damn near almost 100% recyclable.

Trust me, you don't want a lead acid battery EV. I drove an experimental one back in the early 90s, which was build from a Ford Escort. The suspension had to be beefed up to support the tons of batteries. It accelerated like a rocket, but turned and braked like a freight train doesn't. More advanced braking could have helped it stop, but nothing was going to make an object that heavy turn well, even, if the batteries were re-engineered to sit very low in the car.

[poorchava]

I really don't understand why people even consider to buy modern cars. All those electronic gizmos in them are usually source of problems and additional costs, engines are terribly downsized which translates to lower lifetime and so on. I know that manufacturers can't make cars that do not break, becuse they stop earning money (like it happened to Mercedes with W124).

I think it's cheaper in longer run to buy an old Mercedes, Saab, Audi or something simple like that, replace all the parts that are worn out and you'll still be saving like 50-80% of the money compared to buying a new car and it will probably last for another 20 years without major repairs.

Aside from that - new cars are annoying. For example my parents have a 2014 Opel Astra Mk4 (also GM...), I drove it once and it's a freaking nightmare. When you start the car it will inform you about tons of stuff, remind of shitloads of other stuff, beep several times for different reasons, basically you have a start procedure like it was a space shuttle... Who the bloody fuck needs that? I wanna get in, start the engine and go without being bothered unless there is some serious problem.

[tom66]

Either...

You should also insist the incompetent and wasteful government invest your money for you,

You should probably do the same, knowing nothing about leasing or finance agreements.

[Wilksey]

I don't mind the look of the Prius, Toyota do not make bad cars at all really.

I guess we don't have those other cars here in the UK, or I've not seen any if we do, the closest looking car to the Leaf is the Micra, it's like the Audi TT used to closely resemble a squashed VW Beetle, probably completely different, but thats what it was referred to as.

[dannyf]

I have three options at the end of the two year period:

Wow.

Good luck in life.

You will need lots of it.

[tom66]

Danny, you're just being a troll now. Perhaps you should indicate where you disagree? What mojochan has described is a very common finance agreement in the UK. It's not a scam.

[baljemmett]

(I really should know better than to post in yet another thread that our friendly neighbourhood know-it-all has turned into a pissing match, but...)

It's like BMW decided to split their car ranges to 2 series, 4 series etc, which are basically 1 and 3 series cabriolet and coupes, kind of a unnecessary (for Joe public, not for their profits) money making scheme in my eyes.

I think it's more intended to make it more obvious that there's a phase shift between the life cycles of the 'normal' and 'fancy' styles.  When I went looking for a new car a couple of years ago and asked the dealer to show me the 1 Series in 5-door and coupe, I noticed he was curiously reluctant about the latter; when I asked why, he explained that the hatchback was already the new version, but the updated coupe wouldn't be available for another 18 months or so and thus he wasn't keen to sell me a car that was just about to be replaced by an updated model (which also explained why I'd noticed significant differences in available equipment levels between the two styles).  Hence renaming the 1 Series coupe to the 2 Series, etc., so that it's more obvious that they're treated as different models when it comes to their refresh cycles and options.

[poorchava]

I think it's cheaper in longer run to buy an old Mercedes, Saab, Audi or something simple like that, replace all the parts that are worn out and you'll still be saving like 50-80% of the money compared to buying a new car and it will probably last for another 20 years without major repairs.

It's a question of priorities. Older cars were easier to work on, but needed more work. I have health issues and a general lack of free time, so I prefer to just buy a new car with a warranty and then any problems are the dealer's and it just works for me. Modern cars seem to be very reliable anyway.

Modern cars seem reliable, because most of the stuff is being swiped under the carpet. The stuff that gets media attention and mass field recalls (like for example the Toyota accelerator pedal thing) are only a top of an iceberg. Having worked in automotive for a few years, I can tell you for sure that amount of hardware and software problems grows exponentially with amount of unneeded (read it: reuired by regulations) electronic features and gizmos. Cost reductions, time pressure and lack of innovation cause bugs like you wouldn't even think of. Recently Honda and one other manufacturere have been punished with $70M fine (because that's maximum that could be imposed according to US law) for not reporting cases of deaths and injuries caused by design failures. Regulatory bodies make sure that new, more stringent regulations (eg. emissions) are being introduced on regular basis and manufacturers make sure that people in those regulatory bodies have right motivation to make it happen.

When older cars were designed, engineering departaments didn't have such amazing simulation capabilities as they have today, so they overengineered stuff a bit to have a safety margin. Right now cars are designed to fail, ideally just after warranty period ends, same as most white goods and other home appliances.

A car is a tool, like a hammer. It doesn't have to be pretty but I expect it to fucking work when I need it to.

[EEVblog]

Designed by Holden in Australia but won't be sold here   
http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/the-30000-electric-car-designed-by-holden-in-australia-that-will-never-be-sold-here/story-fnjwucvh-1227182770578

[coppice]

When older cars were designed, engineering departaments didn't have such amazing simulation capabilities as they have today, so they overengineered stuff a bit to have a safety margin.

Whilst that is true, its effects work both ways. Old designs were mostly overengineered, but there was a high chance of something being missed. The result was fairly unbalanced designs, where one or two points where the cause of almost all failures. These days simulation lets the designers strip back the overengineering, but it also gives them a much better chance of avoiding the weak links. The result tends to be more balanced designs that work really well for some time, and then lots of things start breaking one after another. Which is better? A product that serves you really well for some time, and then rapid becomes scrap, or one who's weak links keep breaking throughout its life? I guess that depends a lot on how much life you get before the reliable product turns into scrap.