Cleaning moldy electronics equipment

[rhb]

My test gear sat in storage in Houston for 8 years and got so moldy that I can't have it in the shop w/ me until I clean it.  It also no longer works, so I have to fix it.  But to do that I have to be able to stay in the same room w/ it.  Just a couple of hours has been very uncomfortable.

Does anyone have any experience w/ cleaning mold off electronics gear?

[Rerouter]

well the normal way of removing mould is with bleach, but sadly only the water content of the bleach evaporates so thats out of the question,

i have to ask specifically what part of it is coated in mould, the electronics or the casing? or both? as the casing you could give a rub down in bleach or commercial mould remover,

[notsob]

lots of info on mould - the main theme - is the mould on a porous surface or not - so try a few small test areas / pieces.

heres is a basic guide on general mould removal http://blackmold.awardspace.com/kill-remove-mold.html

also shannon lush, who wrote the :Spotless" book on cleaning recommends oil of cloves to kill mould

[pickle9000]

Killing moulds is fairly easy, inhaling them (even dead) can cause health problems. They need to be embedded in a wet solution (very soapy water or oil) and then disposed of properly.

Be careful, the pro's use full body suits, googles, gloves and a respirator for a reason.

...mike

[G7PSK]

Put it in a plastic bag with some formaldehyde tablets for a few days that will kill all the mold. then wipe it of with a cloth damped with spirit vinegar.

[rhb]

My HP 8061A became intolerable after a couple of hours which was long enough to determine that the RF oscillator section was not running, but the sweep section was. I definitely could not stand to be around it long enough to fix it w/o cleaning it first.

Sodium hypochlorite is a non-starter because of the corrosion it would cause.  Formaldehyde fumes in a large metal container might do the trick.  I'll research that more. 
The big problem is undoubtedly the circuit boards themselves. Thanks.

I've got several oscilloscopes, signal generators, etc all of which sat in boxes in Houston for 8 years and then for 4 years more in Arkansas which is almost as humid. That wasn't supposed to happen, but it did.

Unfortunately, much of the gear is socketed transistor stuff from the 60's, so water is a definite no-no.  Too much opportunity for galvanic corrosion.   I *might* try a spray w/ isopropyl alcohol or similar, but I want to be careful.  Compressed air and a soft brush may well be all that is safe.   Even high pressure air risks blowing transistors out of the sockets. I could easily make it too much work to justify the repairs needed. Tube gear I'd just hit w/ a pressure washer after protecting the paper parts.

Part of the logic for the alcohol is observing that residual rosin flux is particularly prone to mold growth.

This is definitely not going to be easy, but it would cost more than I can afford  to replace everything.  So there's a big incentive to put some thought into it.  I'm not concerned w/ getting rid of all the mold.  Just enough that I can be around the equipment w/o adverse health effects.

[G7PSK]

If you can buy pure alcohol by the barrel you could just dunk the whole equipment will most likely kill the mold and wash it off at one sweep. I have never known alcohol to hurt electronics other than paper and wax capacitors.

[Dawn]

Absolute alcohol is hard to find nowadays, but is not only great in itself for cleaning and sterilization, but also as a dehydrant after using an aqueous based cleaner. You could flush the boards with clear ammonia and then dehydrate with alcohol. If you go to your local auto center, look for a product called Drygas or something similar as a gas treatment for water in tanks. It should be near 99% Isopropyl alcohol. If GC products are available there, they used to sell absolute alcohol in a spray can. Another thought. You can also try irradiating with a strong UV source. One of those nail acrylic curing lights or opening up a EEPROM eraser and using the light source might work. Protect your eyes though. There were also gas treatments used to denature items with mold like a fumigant. I don't know much about them, they apparently are not caustic in any way. I remember from grad years that a microscope was sent out after long term storage and that had to be done. Most of the optics couldn't be cleaned and first surface mirrors had to be replaced from the mycotic damage.

[Monkeh]

99% pure IPA is easily found online and isn't even expensive. And a 1L bottle lasts a long time (when you're not washing out equipment, anyway..).

[G7PSK]

Go to a heavy truck spares supply center, they sell nearly pure alcohol usually ethanol as anti freeze for air brake systems.

[Dawn]

I don't know how it is on the other side of the pond, but here in the states, purchasing reagent grade alcohol is near impossible for an individual since 9/11. Most chemical,industrial,or biological supply houses will not sell to in individual and in many cases will report the attempted transaction as possibly being suspicious. Then there is the issue of transportation restrictions.

Near anhydrous isopropyl alcohol used to be a behind the counter product that one could buy or order from a pharmacy/chemist as an "antiseptic".  All I could find anymore is a 91% product in it's place in a plastic bottle instead of a metal can. I mentioned the Drygas type fuel additive b/c it's Isopropyl. There are other motor vehicle alternatives, but frequently contain methyl alcohol and not something that I'd want to be using due to health effects.

[G7PSK]

Methyl alcohol wont hurt you unless you drink it, here in the UK you can buy it at most hardware and paint stores. It really makes me laugh the way the US bans some simple chemicals but you can walk into many Wallmarts and buy a semiautomatic gun over the counter.

[grumpydoc]

Well, you can easily buy "methylated spirits" but that's mostly ethyl alcohol with added naptha, methyl violet and other gunk to make it unpalatable.

I prefer France where you can buy 99% ethanol for cleaning as well as acetone, hydrochloric acid and other basic chemicals in 1L bottles at most larger supermarkets.

[cdev]

I'd be interested in an answer to this too. People who have been heavily exposed to mold often develop a strong reaction to it when they are re-exposed. I am definitely one of those people and its not a good thing because I get sick from anything that is moldy. A house that had water damage three decades ago that was painted over still makes me sick. Sometimes an entire town will make me sick, seriously.

There are different stages of exposure and reactivity. Its like a bee or latex allergy. If your body starts telling you "no more" lisen to it or it will get worse. If you want to know the full scoop, go to pubmed.gov and look up the papers authored by Dr. David Straus at TTUHSC right there in Lubbock. His group there did some of the best research done on mold before their funding ended and was not renewed. Much of it is viewable for free on PubMed because of a law requiring taxpayer funded research to be made public. (that law is in danger, please write your congressman or senator supporting continuation of the law requiring open access to taxpayer funded data)

My advice to you is throw that old junk out and buy new equipment. Even if the equipment seems like the most irreplaceable hardware in the world (which is unlikely if its that old) your ability to work and hold a job is more important.

So, its replacement value is nothing compared to that of your health. Since you are already reacting to mold you must have had significant heavy exposure to it in the past, which means you really have to watch out for additional exposure for the rest of your life. You'll gradually become less sensitive ONLY IF you avoid it completely.

Look up Dr. Claudia Miller and her TILT theory on toxicant induced loss of tolerance. Also "trichothecene mycotoxins" on Pubmed.gov

If right now you still dont get sick from it at the drop of a hat, unless this discussion comes up with a way to clean it thoroughly, walk away from that moldy equipment. Its more trouble than its worth. You could pay a huge price for that moldy hardware.

You are not alone. Many, many families have had to throw out everything they own. Its a total loss and typically they get no compensation.

 It took the government until Hurricane Katrina to even admit that mold makes people sick, (which even the Bible told us 4000 years ago.)

[Monkeh]

My advice to you is throw that old junk out and buy new equipment. Even if the equipment seems like the most irreplaceable hardware in the world (which is unlikely if its that old) your ability to work and hold a job is more important.

Please, feel free to throw stuff away in the direction of those of us who know to wear masks!

[saturation]

The only concern I have for not completely sterilizing your gear of mold is that whatever is left will sporify.  Whatever you clean it with has to destroy the spores too.

If you have any cooling fans in your gear or air currents in the ventilated casing, any surviving spores can get blown into your lab, and your home.  None of this mold would have normally entered your home, but now you are taking something that had lived in a warehouse or outdoors, and now taking it indoors.

The only good news is so long as the humidity doesn't rise and stay over 80%+ continuously, the spores will unlikely vegetate.

[G7PSK]

The only concern I have for not completely sterilizing your gear of mold is that whatever is left will sporify.  Whatever you clean it with has to destroy the spores too.

If you have any cooling fans in your gear or air currents in the ventilated casing, any surviving spores can get blown into your lab, and your home.  None of this mold would have normally entered your home, but now you are taking something that had lived in a warehouse or outdoors, and now taking it indoors.

The only good news is so long as the humidity doesn't rise and stay over 80%+ continuously, the spores will unlikely vegetate.

That's the beauty of Formaldehyde, It works by coagulating proteins, that means that all the spoors will be killed of as well it left in the fumes for a few days.

[LEECH666]

Am I the only one who wants to see some pictures of the "rotten" gear? 

Cheers,
Florian

[T4P]

Am I the only one who wants to see some pictures of the "rotten" gear? 

Cheers,
Florian

Not alone there 

[cdev]

Folks, please watch out when you are using solvents with old moldy equipment. The combination of static electricity and moldy air attracts large quantities of fungal fragments which carry mycotoxins. I know that sounds like tinfoil hat stuff but its been documented by David Strauss' group at TTHSU.

Make sure you wear thick rubber gloves when cleaning equipment that has been exposed to mold and static electricity at the same time.

Some of the chemicals in molds- the most toxic ones, like to accumulate in a greasy flm that covers everything in a moldy building-

The worst of the chemicals in those spaces can go right through your skin and can also hurt your eyes. Wear gloves.

Don't let solvents you use get on your skin at all or dry on your gloves or splatter in your eyes.

High voltage will attract lots of it by means of ionic activity. Pointy things like your hair will also attract it.

So, be aware that SLS, a common ingredient in soaps and shampoos will allow it to penetrate your skin. Electronic equipment, more than anything else, attracts mold. So be aware of this. When you are done, immediately take off all your clothes and dump them in the washer. Then shower, and scrub your hair well and rinse.

If you are being exposed to a lot of mold ask your doctor for an Rx. for cholestyramine.  It will protect your liver and kidneys. Also, take strong antioxidants.

I learned this from experience. Dont let yourself get lulled into thinking its safe by inertia.

If you are in a building like that it needs to get cleaned up by professionals. The ONLY safe way is dry ice blasting using hepa vacuum using negative air pressure at the same time to make sure all the stuff thats blasted off gets sucked up.

[helius]

What do you consider strong antioxidants? hydrazine?
Mold is a real health concern, but "antioxidants" are absolutely tinfoil hat stuff.

[babysitter]

Oh what a old and moldy thread...

High-grade IPA is not the right thing. Alcohol-based surface desinfectants, so i was told, have a water content due to a reason:
The spores dont care for the alcohol too much then, as it doesn't enter due to "sleeping" metabolism. A optimal mix is 70% alcohol in water, where the water content is triggering the spores to reboot their metabolism which will cause them to suck up that poisonous content.

In medical sterilisation with gas, the goods are preatreated with a warm, humid cycle too to wake everybody up for lunch, before the ethylene oxide is served.

[helius]

I have also read that a warm chamber with 80% RH is recommended when sterilizing with formaldehyde. Keeping the RH from rising too high may be an issue: you wouldn't want to accelerate corrosion too much during the process. And when the piece cools it could get a lot of condensation. Not an issue for stainless medical equipment, but for optics or electronics it could be bad.

[babysitter]

Just a few hours later I get a piece of electronics kit on my table, which has been EtO sterilized. Now its my turn to prove it didn't suffer
 

[cdev]

What do you consider strong antioxidants?

Mold is a real health concern, but "antioxidants" are absolutely tinfoil hat stuff.

Not true at all. Redox state of living cells can be the thing that determines their survival, and/or the integrity of their DNA, under a great many conditions.


n-acetylcysteine, alpha lipoic acid, are two very good ones, to start.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=n-acetylcysteine 

NAC- which turns into glutathione in the body- is good for 1000s of things, for example, it will protect your hearing!

Also, expectant mothers should take low doses of it daily, as glutathione is the way the body eliminates toxic stuff like mercury which can cause major problems with developing fetal cells. Glutathione is how our body naturally eliminates a great deal of junk out of the body in a gentle manner-

One very good example is described at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17298174 (a very important paper in its implications - which was never given the attention it deserved because of its easily forgotten name.)

ALA is another antioxidant, this time its one the body manufactures itself but in small amounts. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=alpha-lipoic+acid (again, supplementing it is good for a great many things, one of the best values in terms of bang per buck.)

There are multiple kinds of mold contamination and multiple ways they hurt people. Spores are not the means by which many people get sick, but they are important to the immunosuppressed, also the body must use up a single macrophage cell and some NO - again, both finite resources it needs, with each spore or fungal fragment it eliminates, an ability which declines over time.

(viable) spores can cause fungal invasion of the body in immuno-suppressed people. For most of history it was uncommon, because the immune system was usually capable of fighting it off. however, today, because of managed care, many doctors to save time, don't even bother trying to find out what disease a patient has (differential diagnosis - which they now denigrate as defensive medicine), instead they "manage" it by suppressing its symptoms with expensive drugs. Oftentimes, this is not a good idea because it leaves people wide open to fungal infection, which is extremely dangerous. The number of people taking these drugs is growing, and that makes it dangerous for there to be mold in the environment- but there is always some mold in the environment outdoors. Lining near composting facilities is not that uncommon and there there is a huge amount of mod, concentrated. That also releases mercury into the air as plants are composted which is a process that breaks them down and also generates heat. Mercury vapor is then absorbed by all living hings, including plants and people, and it builds up. Again, mercury exposure uses up the body's glutathione, which is the main system your body uses to break down xenobiotics (man made chemicals of all kinds)  To improve your body's glutathione status, people (everybody) should take a modest dose of n-acetylcysteine daily, if possible.

the other kinds of mold exposure are

fungal fragments (see above re: using up resources) and carried on those fragments, increasing in amount as they get smaller and more respirable, is the worst exposure from molds, tiny particles which can be composed of poly-saccharides which contain literally thousands of mycotoxins which are chemicals, often incredibly strong poisons (i.e. anti-biotics which are chemicals molds evolved over millions of years to kill other fungi-and other living things get killed as well, in varying amounts) We, "animalia" being closer to fungi evolutionarily than we are to other living things, are often collateral damage.

Molds are basically chemical factories. That property of them is increasingly being used in industry..

But, there is just no way to describe the incredible variety of poisons and other biologically active substances mold makes under conditions of high humidity. Typically to kill other molds . Generally the more humidity, the more mycotoxins in an exponential curve as you get more humidity. This is a really huge problem with food storage. A very large amount of food is spoiled in this manner and then must be diluted with clean food until it is legal to sell for human or animal feeds. The greatest danger posed by extreme weather throughout history has and is the problem of food spoilage and resultant mycotoxin created illness, cancers, etc. This was responsible for the period of witch burnings in Europe, for example. (due to grains production of ergot-alkaloids, which cause serious problems with circulation (i.e gangrene, miscarriages, and of course, the classic hallucinatory states which left those who ate contaminated grains with the feeling that they had been possessed by demons) A number of Aspergilli spp. also produce ergot alkaloids which can be produced in large quantities- pharmacologically relevant amounts in composting operations and also in moldy buildings. For example, mold growing on latex paint and shower curtains.

Among the worst mycotoxins - are the ones that cause living cells to rapidly die. An example is so called "toxic black mold" stachybotrys chartarum - which produces Trichothecenes - which are among the most toxic substances known to mankind.

Some persist in the environment indefinitely - they are stable and don't just go away.

They can build up in an environment that is subjected to periods of high moisture and humidity and then dry out, Mediterranean climates like California and Australia, for example where there is a rainy and dry season are the condition that will cause a buildup of trichothecenes to really high levels inside of closed paper faced gypsum wallboard cavities.. Older buildings that have seen repeated water damage can hold a lot of problems inside closed wall cavities where mold grew at one time and was never cleaned out.

If you are ever in a flood, when the water recedes, go around with a sledgehammer or hole saw and cut at least one, preferably two air holes in each stud cavity - every single one, to prevent 99% RH from developing in there - that is what causes the real mold nightmares. never ever let that situation just get painted over! Then get space heaters - the kind that blow and dry it out fast.

The worst mycotoxins are the trichothecenes, which are protein inhibitors and cytotoxic (they cause cells, especially newly growing cells to die)  There are thousands of known ones and according to one scientist "we keep discovering new ones all the time".

How to get rid of them from the body?

A number of these toxins are quite gradually removed from the bloodstream by the liver and then they briefly end up in the bile, where they usually are re-absorbed in the gut - along with the low molecular weight poisons- and stay in the body for months or even longer. The way to get rid of them is to get rid of the bile by binding it with something irreversibly so it will be excreted in feces instead of being recycled.

Cholestyramine does that and as I said, its useful for that reason.

It and strong antioxidants are your first line of defense in a general manner for these ugly substances and they will also help with many others as well.

See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22253638 and the linked related papers

SO- to remove the toxic film from electronics you will need to be able to wash them with something that will dissolve away the mycotocins and then wash that away with clean water in a way which does not involve your needing to touch it.

Use thick rubber gloves or several layers of disposable rubber gloves. never re-use the gloves and turn off your cell phone so you wont be tempted to try to answer it while doing this.

Talk to an expert as to what solvents are best- be aware fumes may also be dangerous! and be aware that drying solvents will concentrate whatever is there so rinse it away down the drain, don't leave it to dry on the items.  Given the trouble, you need to decide if it is worth it on an item by item basis.

If you are in a high mold environment you may not notice for a long time, you will just get progressively sicker and not know why.  A clue is that your skin may become really dry.  You may ache all over and not have any energy at all. the list goes on and on. Most of it is inflammatory phenomena.

A great amount of disease that people think is part of aging is actually caused by mold. A building that creates this illness needs to be gutted down to the studs, dry ice blasted and rebuilt. It wont be fixable by cosmetic changes. Move!

One thing that may help a lot are phytonutrients (they reduce inflammation dramatically) reseveratrol, curcumin, quercetin. What the mold does is it prevents your body from repairing things as it would normally and it prevents protein synthesis, it also depletes glutathione and causes an inflammatory cascade in multiple systems in the body. It also uses up the body's finite repair capacity. There is a so called Hayflick Limit on cell division. Mold toxins store up in fat cells and can and do persist in your body for years after a high exposure situation.

Older electronics equipment that contains CRTs should probably be superficially cleaned carefully if they have been in a really moldy place.


Sunshine helps, intentional exposure to sunshine (high levels of UV light) will reduce moldy belongings ability to make people sick a bit -to a lot. (not the worst kinds of molds but many of the not so bad kinds, the kinds most people encounter in a moldy home, the worst kind, stachybotrys is a sign of extreme humidity for a prolonged period. Even a small amount is a sign of a potentially large problem. It doesn't sporulate unless it is dying so you wont see it in spore trap testing.)

There is also a very expensive soap, Vulpex soap which is good for cleaning artwork and valuable papers and the kinds of clothing that one absolutely cannot part with. I have expensive fleece clothing which cost a lot and I was unwilling to part with which is mostly okay but every once in a while I still smell it, and its been washed at least 20+ times.

If ionizers or high voltages are involved or perhaps even if you live near the seashore (negative ions) AND there is a lot of mold in a building, electronics is much more likely to accumulate a lot of this greasy mold film which is incredibly persistent and very bad for you- as i said it literally goes through the skin right into the bloodstream.

Don't underestimate their ability to cause human illnesses. That said its possible to clean a lot of things if you take care to do it properly.

Also, there are MVOCs, another problem. Both from aerobic (less bad) and anaerobic (really nasty and contain known carcinogens) decomposition.

This is a paper on cleaning moldy posessions. the authors have done a lot of other work on this too so you may want to look at that as well. Especially Drs Strauss and Wilson.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15238314  >> Also click the authors names to search on several of authors of this paper. They were part of a team in Texas that studied mold and produced a lot of really important work until they lost their funding.

Wilson SC (Australian and really nice guy), Brasel TL, Martin JM, Wu C, Andriychuk LA (also really great person), Karunasena E,  and especially Straus DC (one of the most knowledgeable scientists on molds and mycotoxins) . Click on their names on PubMed and you will find a lot of useful info.

We bought some testing from them and it turned out to be so bad they continued to do more testing for free, which was the thing that convinced us that we needed to go and not try to battle it out.

We should have left much sooner but we knew that it would mean having to leave a lot of good friends behind in an area we could no longer afford to live in - so it was a hard decision to make.