Could this be the new 555 timer ?

[Bored@Work]

The fact that they support 5V also suggests it isn't bleeding-edge tech.

The just released greenpak2 does, the original greenpak doesn't. Could be that they figured that they can increase their potential market by supporting 5V, so people in need of revising an old, existing 5V design are tempted to use them.

Until now I have two scary issues with them (no, not the package size):

- The programming protocol does not seem to be documented. Therefore, it seems as if you depend on them for volume or even small series.

- They argue the "non traditional marking" of the parts when you buy volume is a security feature. Good luck then in a few years when you need to repair something which contains a mystery greenpak.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The fact that they support 5V also suggests it isn't bleeding-edge tech.

The just released greenpak2 does, the original greenpak doesn't. Could be that they figured that they can increase their potential market by supporting 5V, so people in need of revising an old, existing 5V design are tempted to use them.

Until now I have two scary issues with them (no, not the package size):

- The programming protocol does not seem to be documented. Therefore, it seems as if you depend on them for volume or even small series.

I don't see that as a big deal, as if you programmed yourself you'd also need to re-tape for pick & place. ISTR reading somewhere they promise fast turnround (days I think)  for preprogrammed parts. Would be interesting to see what the price and MOQ is, but as they're targeting it as a low-cost part,  I doubt cost will be high - only the MOQ may be an issue if they're geared up for high volume users

- They argue the "non traditional marking" of the parts when you buy volume is a security feature. Good luck then in a few years when you need to repair something which contains a mystery greenpak.

Even if you knew what part it was you wouldn't know how it was programmed, so not a big deal - even 'standard' parts in small packages can be hard to impossible to identify.

[Rufus]

I don't see that as a big deal, as if you programmed yourself you'd also need to re-tape for pick & place.

That's why I asked if there are pick and place machines that could program these parts on the fly.

Programmed parts are a complete pain which is why in system programming is so popular, but, for these little parts the in system programming overhead is too high. There is sod all to program in the parts so you would hope it is fast and the package would be compatible with the placing head holding it against some nails. Or maybe you would have a fancy feeder with an inline programming station. Maybe you could even stick needles through the bottom of the tape?

These are not conventional devices and conventional methods don't get the best out of them.

[Hypernova]

The just released greenpak2 does, the original greenpak doesn't. Could be that they figured that they can increase their potential market by supporting 5V, so people in need of revising an old, existing 5V design are tempted to use them.

A while ago I was looking at dsPIC33Fs as replacements for the dsPIC30Fs at work, but the local Microchip FAE swore up and down that the 3V3 process chips die more easily, He told horror stories of projects stalling because the chip died everytime the board has to go through Hi-Pot tests.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Programmed parts are a complete pain which is why in system programming is so popular, but, for these little parts the in system programming overhead is too high.

Plus in-circuit programming OTP parts is a bit risky.
It's pretty obvious that the preferred produciton route is factory programming - some of Silego's publicity actually refers to them as factory-programmable.
If they are geared up for this, and their turnround times and costs are good, then that's the most sensible route.
What it doesn't give you is the inventory flexibility of programming parts on demand, however they are so cheap that this is less of an issue than it wouldbe for more expensive parts.

[FreeThinker]

I was looking to get the devkit 2 to try. With this you can program the supplied batch of chips for prototyping. At $49.99 it's a good price. Now the killer $50 p&p to the UK!!!!. Erm I don't think so.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I was looking to get the devkit 2 to try. With this you can program the supplied batch of chips for prototyping. At $49.99 it's a good price. Now the killer $50 p&p to the UK!!!!. Erm I don't think so.

With the sort of volumes they're targetting, I don't think they are too interested in customers for whom the difference between $50 and $100 for a devkit is a deal-breaker..!
BTW I think I saw somewhere that the devkit 2 is out of stock at the moment

[slateraptor]

Anti-fuse OTP technology seems to be a hot topic this week.

http://www.eetimes.com/design/memory-design/4229775/Argument-for-anti-fuse-non-volatile-memory-in-28nm-high-K-metal-gate

[FreeThinker]

I was looking to get the devkit 2 to try. With this you can program the supplied batch of chips for prototyping. At $49.99 it's a good price. Now the killer $50 p&p to the UK!!!!. Erm I don't think so.

With the sort of volumes they're targetting, I don't think they are too interested in customers for whom the difference between $50 and $100 for a devkit is a deal-breaker..!
BTW I think I saw somewhere that the devkit 2 is out of stock at the moment

Yes I know, but that was my point, at the moment they are not interested in small quantity's and so as a hobbyist they are not a viable product. Shame, as you have said they could become huge IF they could become as popular as the 555 or 741 et al, but that is not going to happen with huge delivery charges and no dealer outlets. As far as I can tell the $50 charge is their standard rate to the UK regardless of order size (within limits I assume)

[mikeselectricstuff]

I was looking to get the devkit 2 to try. With this you can program the supplied batch of chips for prototyping. At $49.99 it's a good price. Now the killer $50 p&p to the UK!!!!. Erm I don't think so.

With the sort of volumes they're targetting, I don't think they are too interested in customers for whom the difference between $50 and $100 for a devkit is a deal-breaker..!
BTW I think I saw somewhere that the devkit 2 is out of stock at the moment

Yes I know, but that was my point, at the moment they are not interested in small quantity's and so as a hobbyist they are not a viable product. Shame, as you have said they could become huge IF they could become as popular as the 555 or 741 et al, but that is not going to happen with huge delivery charges and no dealer outlets. As far as I can tell the $50 charge is their standard rate to the UK regardless of order size (within limits I assume)

The hobbyist market never made anything huge. Even the Arduino is a tiny blip in Atmel's sales.
The target market of these is low-end MCUs and mopping up discretes, neither of which are high prorities for designs that aren't super cost- or size- sensitive.
I do think it's cool that for a product aimed at high volume, the devkit is cheap, devtools free, parts available in small qtys and the internals documented without NDA nonsense.

[westfw]

The hobbyist market never made anything huge.

"Apple 1" was a hobbyist project, wasn't it?  :-)
The hobbyist "market" is really small, but those hobbyists end up in all sorts of odd places, and the "mind-share" (like "market-share" can be pretty important.)

[mikeselectricstuff]

The hobbyist market never made anything huge.

"Apple 1" was a hobbyist project, wasn't it?  :-)
The hobbyist "market" is really small, but those hobbyists end up in all sorts of odd places, and the "mind-share" (like "market-share" can be pretty important.)

Absolutely agree, but this is  a more long-term  thing - any new product will be initially targetted at people using high volume now so they can pay the bills.

BTW according to Wikipedia the Apple 1 sold 200 units.

[FreeThinker]

According to the GreenPak web site they have shifted 100millon  units in 18 months production  (around 200,000 units/day). This is a significant figure. The 555 became as popular as it did because of a number of reasons, it was a superbly versatile chip, it was cheap, and it was widely available but most of all because it was so well supported by the end user. This included the hobby market as well as mass production and all helped in achieving critical mass, so to answer the original question 'Could this be the new 555' the answer has got to be 'No' unless they change their marketing strategy. In fact  it is likely to die quite quickly if it concentrates it's efforts on it's present markets of rehashing mature products to remove the logic glue chip count. This will eventually dry up and not return, therefore they must find new markets to sell into and compete with modern designs or end up as a niche product, their present marketing is counter productive in this area

[westfw]

These look more interesting with a closer look.

Apparently the actual interconnections are RAM based.  After you program the OTP, the OTP is loaded into the RAM cells at powerup.  BUT during development you can load the RAM directly, try it out via breakout pins on the programmer board, and try again if (when!) you find problems.  That's not too bad a trade-off.

Silego is selling relatively inexpensive DFN sockets (~$12.)

Anyway, I ordered both development kits and a couple sockets.  I decided they weren't much less approachable than most other FPGA like-devices, hobbyist-wise.  An interesting experiment will be to see if I can put enough backup power on a DFN/DIP adapter to move a chip with RAM-based config off of the programmer and into (for example) a protoboard...

[Hypernova]

An interesting experiment will be to see if I can put enough backup power on a DFN/DIP adapter to move a chip with RAM-based config off of the programmer and into (for example) a protoboard...

Given it can work down to 1.8V a 3V coin cell should do it,

[BravoV]

The hobbyist market never made anything huge.

"Apple 1" was a hobbyist project, wasn't it?  :-)
The hobbyist "market" is really small, but those hobbyists end up in all sorts of odd places, and the "mind-share" (like "market-share" can be pretty important.)

Absolutely agree, but this is  a more long-term  thing - any new product will be initially targetted at people using high volume now so they can pay the bills.

BTW according to Wikipedia the Apple 1 sold 200 units.

Yup, especially if venture capitalists are dragging their feet, they just can not afford to spend the time, energy and money for hobbyist market any longer, time has changed, product cycle are so fast while those VCs are shouting at their back to show them the money fast. Though I believe they're fully aware of the potential, imo its just too difficult now.

[westfw]

they just can not afford to spend the time, energy and money for hobbyist market any longer, time has changed,

Times are BETTER for the hobbyist than they've ever been before.  They may not produce the friendliest packages and the simplest  documentation, but at least you can BUY things.  Most of the major distributors, and many manufacturers, will now sell you chips and development kits at reasonable prices, regardless of your "professional" status, or lack thereof.  It wasn't that way a couple decades ago...  (Not to mention internet forums and discussions.  You used to have to put up with whatever the magazines published, and dealt with the rather "questionable" vendors that advertised surplus parts there-in.)

[mikeselectricstuff]

they just can not afford to spend the time, energy and money for hobbyist market any longer, time has changed,

Times are BETTER for the hobbyist than they've ever been before.  They may not produce the friendliest packages and the simplest  documentation, but at least you can BUY things.  Most of the major distributors, and many manufacturers, will now sell you chips and development kits at reasonable prices, regardless of your "professional" status, or lack thereof.  It wasn't that way a couple decades ago...  (Not to mention internet forums and discussions.  You used to have to put up with whatever the magazines published, and dealt with the rather "questionable" vendors that advertised surplus parts there-in.)

..not to mention having to get someone to send you paper datasheets....

[FreeThinker]

News Update from Silego
http://www.silego.com/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=55&cntnt01returnid=71
Impressive, but who was #1?

[Bored@Work]

News Update from Silego
http://www.silego.com/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=55&cntnt01returnid=71
Impressive, but who was #1?

MaxLinear, Inc. Carlsbad CA