Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?

[EEVblog]

Remind me -- what's the point of a QR code printed on a screen? 
Seems like a link or something might do?

For those people who foolishly use crypto currency app on their phones.
Which is the majority it seems.
They will be the ones to lose their money first when the great crypto hack comes...

[WastelandTek]

deterministic paper wallets for the win

[Halcyon]

Dave, how do you store your crypto? Do you use a software/hardware wallet? Paper? At the moment I've got mine sitting on the exchange, but will probably pull it out into a more secure form. I'm leaning towards a software wallet on an off-line machine with a paper back up.

[EEVblog]

Dave, how do you store your crypto? Do you use a software/hardware wallet? Paper? At the moment I've got mine sitting on the exchange, but will probably pull it out into a more secure form. I'm leaning towards a software wallet on an off-line machine with a paper back up.

Combination of all three.
Hardware wallets unfortunately don't support all the altcoins.
I have a new Ledger Nano S sitting on my desk, been meaning to do a reaview/teardown of that, and the new model Trezor on order.

[nctnico]

Legal tender is mostly trust based (though as I said, you HAVE to pay your taxes ... trust doesn't enter into it) for as long as the government has trust in it as well, but they have the tools and the necessity to put something more fundamental underpinning it in an emergency. That necessity doesn't exist for bitcoin.

Assuming the government is a democratic one it is the people themselves putting trust into the money.

Democracy?  Nice idea. Here in the US we have an oligarchy, not a democracy..

That is your problem and appearantly most people are satisfied with the US government the way it is skewed otherwise it would have been overthrown a long time ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_revolution

[hendorog]

Remind me -- what's the point of a QR code printed on a screen? 
Seems like a link or something might do?

For those people who foolishly use crypto currency app on their phones.
Which is the majority it seems.
They will be the ones to lose their money first when the great crypto hack comes...

I don't see a problem about using a phone wallet. Just don't store big amounts in it - treat it like a normal wallet.

Anything that is attached to a network can be hacked of course, but it would be a rather impressive thing to hack them all at once

[EEVblog]

Anything that is attached to a network can be hacked of course, but it would be a rather impressive thing to hack them all at once

That's the whole idea. Spyware gets installed on your phone (because they are inherently unsecure) and then "they" collect this information (including paper wallet keys you foolishly set up on your phone) and then one day there is going to be a great hack that nabs them all at once.

[WastelandTek]

It is a bit of a PITA to set up a secure offline environment (make sure that OS ISO meets it's checksum) but if you don't want daddy bank holding your hand it is just one of those things you have to do.

[hwj-d]

Legal tender is mostly trust based (though as I said, you HAVE to pay your taxes ... trust doesn't enter into it) for as long as the government has trust in it as well, but they have the tools and the necessity to put something more fundamental underpinning it in an emergency. That necessity doesn't exist for bitcoin.

Assuming the government is a democratic one it is the people themselves putting trust into the money.

Democracy?  Nice idea. Here in the US we have an oligarchy, not a democracy..

Thanks, that's true. And, that's true for the EU too. Also that means, that there are a few, who, unlike much more others, benefit from this situation. And that has nothing to do with communism [lol] in these days, rather with escalating capitalism.

[hendorog]

Anything that is attached to a network can be hacked of course, but it would be a rather impressive thing to hack them all at once

That's the whole idea. Spyware gets installed on your phone (because they are inherently unsecure) and then "they" collect this information (including paper wallet keys you foolishly set up on your phone) and then one day there is going to be a great hack that nabs them all at once.

Fair point, that is possible. But I think it is illogical. Firstly, why would they wait? They have the keys already if the phone is already hacked. If they wait then the higher the chance the spyware will be discovered and removed.

Also there is the problem of shifting the funds after the hack, that would be even harder given the alt-currency is now worthless. A huge hack like that would bring huge publicity and attention from law enforcement. Covering tracks for such a large event would be very difficult.

Logically, the crims would take the money straight away in smaller amounts as they can get it. Therefore we would hear about it.

[mtdoc]

Legal tender is mostly trust based (though as I said, you HAVE to pay your taxes ... trust doesn't enter into it) for as long as the government has trust in it as well, but they have the tools and the necessity to put something more fundamental underpinning it in an emergency. That necessity doesn't exist for bitcoin.

Assuming the government is a democratic one it is the people themselves putting trust into the money.

Democracy?  Nice idea. Here in the US we have an oligarchy, not a democracy..

That is your problem and appearantly most people are satisfied with the US government the way it is skewed otherwise it would have been overthrown a long time ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_revolution

No - most Americans are not satisfied with US governance. But being dissatisfied is not the same as being willing to rise up and revolt.  For most, the current bread and circuses keep them content enough that expression of their dissatisfaction is limited to quiet grumblings or subdued with alcohol or opiates...

[hwj-d]

Little OT, but some new news today (translated from german 'telepolis.de'):

The FED further raises the base interest rate, while in Europe there is no normalization of monetary policy and "the largest bond bubble in human history is puffing up"

That says it all ...

(edit: translate correction)

[paulca]

Legal tender is mostly trust based (though as I said, you HAVE to pay your taxes ... trust doesn't enter into it) for as long as the government has trust in it as well, but they have the tools and the necessity to put something more fundamental underpinning it in an emergency. That necessity doesn't exist for bitcoin.

Assuming the government is a democratic one it is the people themselves putting trust into the money.

If your country was a democracy the poor would get together and vote to remove the assets of the rich.  There are usually many more times the number of poor people than rich people, so the rich would always be out voted.

Note that pure, direct, open democracy is not implemented in pretty much any country because it's dangerous.  The people do not know how to run a country, they don't understand international politics or economics.

Take Brexit for example.  A case were open democracy back fired really badly and allowed a win for xenophobes, racists and bigots without a single clue what exactly it meant or what the plan was... there wasn't a plan, nobody expected it to go "YES".

Another example which thankfully hasn't happened, but could you imagine the response to:

"Would you like all corporations in the UK to pay full tax without any deals, rebates or concessions?"

I can guarantee the mass populace would vote "YES" in a huge land slide.  In a years time all big business would leave the country to seek a better tax environment elsewhere .  Trashing the economy overnight.

This is why the usual form of democracy is "representative democracy" where we vote for people we feel will represent our interests.  Though this is failing today with the "Hello Magazine" effect of pop culture.  Not only do people not understand how to run a country, they don't even understand anymore than their politicians do need to know.  So they vote for charismatic imbeciles who talk the talk but haven't a clue what they are doing.  Thankfully it's usually the civil servants actually running the country, but corruption can lie there too.

[nctnico]

Legal tender is mostly trust based (though as I said, you HAVE to pay your taxes ... trust doesn't enter into it) for as long as the government has trust in it as well, but they have the tools and the necessity to put something more fundamental underpinning it in an emergency. That necessity doesn't exist for bitcoin.

Assuming the government is a democratic one it is the people themselves putting trust into the money.

If your country was a democracy the poor would get together and vote to remove the assets of the rich.  There are usually many more times the number of poor people than rich people, so the rich would always be out voted.

Note that pure, direct, open democracy is not implemented in pretty much any country because it's dangerous.  The people do not know how to run a country, they don't understand international politics or economics.

Take Brexit for example.  A case were open democracy back fired really badly and allowed a win for xenophobes, racists and bigots without a single clue what exactly it meant or what the plan was... there wasn't a plan, nobody expected it to go "YES".

The new parliament in the NL is getting rid of polls on specific topics because it will always be abused to vote against the government and not for or against the topic. It happened in the NL too about whether Ukraine should get some kind of EU partner status. That didn't do much harm but the UK got burned badly with the brexit poll.

This is why the usual form of democracy is "representative democracy" where we vote for people we feel will represent our interests.  Though this is failing today with the "Hello Magazine" effect of pop culture.  Not only do people not understand how to run a country, they don't even understand anymore than their politicians do need to know.

In the NL laws get passed in two stages. First the directly choosen parliament (2nd chamber) votes on it and then the first chamber consisting of senior politicians votes on it. The first chamber however can't make changes to the laws. This means the members of 2nd chamber really need to do their homework before putting a law together.

[Mr. Scram]

That is your problem and appearantly most people are satisfied with the US government the way it is skewed otherwise it would have been overthrown a long time ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_revolution

Are they happy with the way things are, or are they happy with the way they think things are? There's often a large difference between what people perceive and how things are.

A fun example would be the perceived spendings on NASA, and the actual spendings. People consistently vastly overestimate how much money is spent on NASA and therefore have a different perception of budget cuts or increased spending. We're not even talking about wilful manipulation yet.

[brucehoult]

Note that pure, direct, open democracy is not implemented in pretty much any country because it's dangerous.  The people do not know how to run a country, they don't understand international politics or economics.

Take Brexit for example.  A case were open democracy back fired really badly and allowed a win for xenophobes, racists and bigots without a single clue what exactly it meant or what the plan was... there wasn't a plan, nobody expected it to go "YES".

The plan, of course, is to be as the UK was before 1970, and as such awful countries as Australia, Canada, and New Zealand are now, managing their own immigration and their own trading environment.

Wait ... but they're not awful! They are universally regarded as among the best places in the world to live, well above both the USA and UK on virtually every measure except raw income. Look at any independently compiled list of the most free, best health, longest life, best standard of living etc etc and you'll find those countries near the top, along with the same usual suspects of the Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland. That's going to be your top ten, right there, in most cases.

Another example which thankfully hasn't happened, but could you imagine the response to:

"Would you like all corporations in the UK to pay full tax without any deals, rebates or concessions?"

I can guarantee the mass populace would vote "YES" in a huge land slide.  In a years time all big business would leave the country to seek a better tax environment elsewhere .  Trashing the economy overnight.

That is another case where this would in fact be a GOOD THING, provided only that the official nominal tax rate was lowered so as to collect the same amount of tax.

That would benefit the economy hugely, and cause companies to flock to the UK.

The only people it would hurt would be accountants and lawyers.


I do agree that pure representative democracy would be a bad thing. But you picked terrible examples to illustrate it!

[Mr. Scram]

The plan, of course, is to be as the UK was before 1970, and as such awful countries as Australia, Canada, and New Zealand are now, managing their own immigration and their own trading environment.

Wait ... but they're not awful! They are universally regarded as among the best places in the world to live, well above both the USA and UK on virtually every measure except raw income. Look at any independently compiled list of the most free, best health, longest life, best standard of living etc etc and you'll find those countries near the top, along with the same usual suspects of the Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland. That's going to be your top ten, right there, in most cases.

There is no plan, they didn't even bother to calculate what the Brexit would do to the economical situation of the UK until the decision was already made. It was populist politics for the sake of it, based on half truths and flat out lies and was never intended to actually be executed. The fact that almost all the politicians who endeavoured for a Brexit bailed ship within the first two weeks says it all. They knew exactly what was coming and wanted nothing to do with it.

You do realize that Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Netherlands and Austria are in part as successful as they are thanks to the EU framework the UK is aspiring to leave behind now, right? Moreover, the UK actually has all sort of exceptions that benefit them within the EU, more than the other countries, but still it was not enough. Now all the perks will be a thing of the past. Considering close to half of the trading done is with other EU states, that might sting a bit.

[Marco]

The FED further raises the base interest rate, while in Europe there is no normalization of monetary policy and "the largest bond bubble in human history is puffing up"

That says it all ...

There is no bubble, central banks have an infinite capacity to buy government debt and the amount of government debt they hold is pretty much irrelevant. Something like current account balance and external debt is far more fundamental in kicking off hyperinflation than government debt held by the central bank.

Look at Japan, chicken littles have been wrong about the relevance of internal government debt for literal decades.

PS. the Euro is fundamentally unstable though, but not because of a bubble in debt.

[Marco]

If your country was a democracy the poor would get together and vote to remove the assets of the rich.

In a high trust monocultural society such as Japan this is less of an issue. There is still the concept of shame of government dependence, there is a level of trust that the rich will keep the differences civilized and have the best interests for the nation at heart.

It's only when morality, trust and shame get ground to dust that this becomes truly an issue. Multiculturalism has killed the spectre of fascism, but we have enough democracy to vote ourselves communist if we really want to. If the bread and circuses decrease a little too quick because of another economic crisis we might do so, propaganda can only control the population if they boil the frog slowly enough.

[paulca]

propaganda can only control the population if they boil the frog slowly enough.

... and that right there is a t-shirt quote.  But... it's happening.  The dumbing down of society the shunning of the intelligent, the proliferation of giving tin-foil-hat opinion equal merit to empirical evidence and shunning the latter proving the former stupid. "They are entitled to their opinion."

Well I'm entitled to say their opinion is bollox the pop culture society is turning into a mass of dribbling fools.  Just continuing to breed, obey and consume so the graphs keep rising and bubble/bust repeats to keep the money owners happy.

You can't boil frog even slowly if it's a critical thinking educated frog and aware of where it is.

[brucehoult]

You do realize that Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Netherlands and Austria are in part as successful as they are thanks to the EU framework the UK is aspiring to leave behind now, right?

Maybe. Or maybe the EU hobbles them.

It is indisputable that Australia, Canada, New Zealand are not helped in any way by the EU, and indeed suffered greatly when the UK joined it.

[Mr. Scram]

Maybe. Or maybe the EU hobbles them.

It is indisputable that Australia, Canada, New Zealand are not helped in any way by the EU, and indeed suffered greatly when the UK joined it.

You can argue back and forth all day long, but the fact remains that the EU is one of the safest and economically most prosperous areas of the world. There's strength in numbers and none of these countries individually would have a voice on the global political stage.

Pointing to Australia, Canada or New Zealand doesn't make much sense. None of those countries is part that does nearly 50% of its trading with the rest of the EU. I'm not sure why these country would have suffered greatly when the UK joined to EU, but it's not very relevant to the discussion either way. It's silly to think that further isolating the UK from it's neighbours is going to help its economic problems. However, it is obvious that it's beneficial for politicians to point fingers outside of the UK, rather than facing their own internal problems. It's always easier to blame another than it is to face your own shortcomings.

[Bud]

Mr.Scram why are you ashamed of your country flag?

[Mr. Scram]

Mr.Scram why are you ashamed of your country flag?

I'm not.

[hwj-d]

The FED further raises the base interest rate, while in Europe there is no normalization of monetary policy and "the largest bond bubble in human history is puffing up"

That says it all ...

There is no bubble, central banks have an infinite capacity to buy government debt and the amount of government debt they hold is pretty much irrelevant. Something like current account balance and external debt is far more fundamental in kicking off hyperinflation than government debt held by the central bank.

Look at Japan, chicken littles have been wrong about the relevance of internal government debt for literal decades.

PS. the Euro is fundamentally unstable though, but not because of a bubble in debt.

Bonds are interest-bearing securities. You do not have to be a genius to find that relatively low interest rates in a low-interest environment encourage risk-taking (zero bound). And that pushes the bubbles. What do you think, why the FED (and EZB) is very interested in raising the base rate in order to get away from the low interest rate policy? Apart from that the necessary central bank money flood reduces purchasing power, and who then has to pay that bill.