Author Topic: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?  (Read 54293 times)

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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #250 on: December 19, 2017, 12:22:57 am »
That's the case with any speculative investment, it's nothing other than gambling, which is fine as long as one understands what they're getting into. The value is rising based on speculation, no real value being put into the system. For you to make money requires others to lose money, somebody has to be left holding the bag. The money *has* to come from somewhere.
This is only true in a system where no money ever gets added, but it does. In theory, Bitcoin could forever increase in value, leaving each holder of a specific Bitcoin richer than he was before.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #251 on: December 19, 2017, 12:29:22 am »
Nothing can keep rising forever, a system that relies on people continuing to pour money into it to keep it from collapsing is a house of cards similar to a Ponzi scheme. It's not sustainable, eventually an adjustment will occur.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #252 on: December 19, 2017, 12:34:23 am »
Nothing can keep rising forever, a system that relies on people continuing to pour money into it to keep it from collapsing is a house of cards similar to a Ponzi scheme. It's not sustainable, eventually an adjustment will occur.
That depends on the rate of growth. There are plenty of examples to be found of things that end up basically rising indefinitely, save a few short term dips and bumps.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #253 on: December 19, 2017, 12:58:26 am »
I have yet to find an example of something that skyrocketed the way Bitcoin and other crypto currency has and didn't fall flat on it's face after a while. Every one of those bubbles people said at the time this one is different.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #254 on: December 19, 2017, 01:21:55 am »
I have yet to find an example of something that skyrocketed the way Bitcoin and other crypto currency has and didn't fall flat on it's face after a while. Every one of those bubbles people said at the time this one is different.
I'm not saying anything about that. I'm just saying the ever recurring comment that your profits are another's losses is both stale and not necessarily true.
 

Offline HalcyonTopic starter

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #255 on: December 19, 2017, 01:22:20 am »
I have yet to find an example of something that skyrocketed the way Bitcoin and other crypto currency has and didn't fall flat on it's face after a while. Every one of those bubbles people said at the time this one is different.

The thing about Bitcoin is it's only "worth" as much as it is it because it's largely driven by hype and the "fear of missing out". Quite obviously, those that bought Bitcoin even just a few years ago have made significant gains (if they cash it out). There will (and have been) winners but there will be *a lot* of losers. Bitcoin is fundamentally flawed in so many ways not to mention it's slow, expensive to transact and has the problem of hard forks.

Now that other, technically superior cryptos are becoming more mainstream, you'll see Bitcoin undergo a huge price adjustment and others will rise. No one knows when but it's inevitable. There are many reasons why I'm staying the hell away from Bitcoin and the high risk of losing a lot is just one of them. When one of Bitcoin's founders pulls out, you know there are problems and a crash is imminent, the moment that happens, there will be a decline across the board as people get scared off from crypto, but then there will be a recovery and those looking to re-invest in other coins will help push prices up.

Altcoins like DASH, Ethereum, Ripple and IOTA are safer and in many ways better alternatives.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 03:07:30 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline woody

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #256 on: December 19, 2017, 01:11:55 pm »
Quote
When one of Bitcoin's founders pulls out,

Emil Oldenburg is not one of Bitcoin's founders. He co-founded the website Bitcoin.com which seems a site about everything Bitcoin.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #257 on: December 19, 2017, 05:36:41 pm »
Emil Oldenburg is not one of Bitcoin's founders.

Is it just me, or does "Emil Oldenburg" sound like a Bond Villian's name?
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #258 on: December 19, 2017, 06:15:00 pm »
I have yet to find an example of something that skyrocketed the way Bitcoin and other crypto currency has and didn't fall flat on it's face after a while. Every one of those bubbles people said at the time this one is different.
I'm not saying anything about that. I'm just saying the ever recurring comment that your profits are another's losses is both stale and not necessarily true.

But if other people invest in it to keep the price rising, then the movement runs out of steam and it comes crashing down, the late investors lose their money and you gained from their losses. Your argument is similar to the over-unity claims that a system can generate more energy than is put in, it doesn't work.
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #259 on: December 19, 2017, 07:15:14 pm »
I'm with Annie Machon and Julian Assange:



[edit: exchange to better video]

« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 07:28:55 pm by hwj-d »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #260 on: December 19, 2017, 07:34:27 pm »
I have little doubt that some form of crypto currency will stick around and find uses, but if it's useful as a currency then people aren't going to be making big gains investing in the currency. Somebody is going to have to find a way to create a crypto currency that has a relatively stable value backed by some real world commodity. A currency is something used to facilitate transactions by transferring value, for it to serve that purpose it can't have a volatile value in itself.
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #261 on: December 19, 2017, 07:53:49 pm »
I have little doubt that some form of crypto currency will stick around and find uses, but if it's useful as a currency then people aren't going to be making big gains investing in the currency. Somebody is going to have to find a way to create a crypto currency that has a relatively stable value backed by some real world commodity. A currency is something used to facilitate transactions by transferring value, for it to serve that purpose it can't have a volatile value in itself.

Is the pricing instability due to a design flaw in Bitcoin, or a design flaw in the people buying bitcoin?





 
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #262 on: December 19, 2017, 07:56:21 pm »
I have yet to find an example of something that skyrocketed the way Bitcoin and other crypto currency has and didn't fall flat on it's face after a while. Every one of those bubbles people said at the time this one is different.
I'm not saying anything about that. I'm just saying the ever recurring comment that your profits are another's losses is both stale and not necessarily true.

But if other people invest in it to keep the price rising, then the movement runs out of steam and it comes crashing down, the late investors lose their money and you gained from their losses. Your argument is similar to the over-unity claims that a system can generate more energy than is put in, it doesn't work.

Exactly right. Other investments such as stocks and bonds are claims on future cash flows (or goods or services).  Not so with Bitcoin. It is only an IOU whose value is entirely dependent on what someone else is willing to pay for it (in some other currency) or trade for it (in real goods or services). It has no inherent value.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #263 on: December 19, 2017, 07:57:16 pm »
Is the pricing instability due to a design flaw in Bitcoin, or a design flaw in the people buying bitcoin?
Money is worthless without people trusting it, so people's behaviour is an inherent trait of any currency.
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #264 on: December 19, 2017, 07:59:27 pm »
Is the pricing instability due to a design flaw in Bitcoin, or a design flaw in the people buying bitcoin?
Money is worthless without people trusting it, so people's behaviour is an inherent trait of any currency.

Perhaps true if it was a currency, but it doesn't look anything like one to me.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #265 on: December 19, 2017, 08:01:03 pm »
Exactly right. Other investments such as stocks and bonds are claims on future cash flows (or goods or services).  Not so with Bitcoin. It is only an IOU whose value is entirely dependent on what someone else is willing to pay for it (in some other currency) or trade for it (in real goods or services). It has no inherent value.
It's a currency and all currencies are the same in this regard, at least since the gold standard has been abolished. A share is a part of something. A monetary unit is nothing but value, or the trust it has that value.

You could argue that Bitcoin are are better in this regard than regular dollars. Dollars get printed at will, while Bitcoins are inherently limited in nature and do represent an amount of labour being put in to generate one. This puts them somewhere in between conventional currency and stock, though it's much closer to currency.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #266 on: December 19, 2017, 08:03:58 pm »
Perhaps true if it was a currency, but it doesn't look anything like one to me.
It seems most people disagree. Why do you feel that way?
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #267 on: December 19, 2017, 08:10:51 pm »
Exactly right. Other investments such as stocks and bonds are claims on future cash flows (or goods or services).  Not so with Bitcoin. It is only an IOU whose value is entirely dependent on what someone else is willing to pay for it (in some other currency) or trade for it (in real goods or services). It has no inherent value.
It's a currency and all currencies are the same in this regard, at least since the gold standard has been abolished. A share is a part of something. A monetary unit is nothing but value, or the trust it has that value.

You could argue that Bitcoin are are better in this regard than regular dollars. Dollars get printed at will, while Bitcoins are inherently limited in nature and do represent an amount of labour being put in to generate one. This puts them somewhere in between conventional currency and stock, though it's much closer to currency.

It's true that Bitcoin has some common features of a Fiat Currency - but unlike Fiat - it has no backing of any government.

I'm all for getting away from Fiat currencies and Central Bank unlimited money printing - that will happen eventually and a cryptocurrency may be what replaces it .  But it won't be Bitcoin IMHO.  Bitcoin's problem is that it is too inefficient and too slow and unscalable to become a widespread form of payment and it has nothing backing it to be a safe store of wealth.  Caveat Emptor.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #268 on: December 19, 2017, 08:11:18 pm »
Because it's extremely volatile, because people are investing in the "currency" itself, rather than using it as a currency to transfer existing value. You don't trade stuff for $10 bills hoping those $10 bills will skyrocket in value, you do it so you can use those $10 bills to buy something else. If people were using Bitcoin as a currency, the value wouldn't be shooting through the roof. They're investing in it hoping the value will keep going up so they can cash out to some more stable currency before it crashes.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #269 on: December 19, 2017, 08:18:28 pm »
Because it's extremely volatile, because people are investing in the "currency" itself, rather than using it as a currency to transfer existing value. You don't trade stuff for $10 bills hoping those $10 bills will skyrocket in value, you do it so you can use those $10 bills to buy something else. If people were using Bitcoin as a currency, the value wouldn't be shooting through the roof. They're investing in it hoping the value will keep going up so they can cash out to some more stable currency before it crashes.
People trade traditional currencies for the sake of trading it all the time? Just like they trade gold, which often doesn't even exist, just on paper. Even though gold has some intrinsic value, we'll have to concede that's not what people are after.
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #270 on: December 19, 2017, 08:29:36 pm »
Quote
Perhaps true if it was a currency, but it doesn't look anything like one to me.
It seems most people disagree. Why do you feel that way?

Hah, because I think differently to most people my friend :)

I am looking at it from a different perspective. You seem to be saying 'the textbook calls it a currency'. I am saying 'I can't buy a coffee with it'.

Bitcoin is not a practical currency. It wanted to be a currency, but currently is failing badly. Perhaps it can be fixed?

Once something turns bubbly then it could be tulips, currency, .com shares. It really makes no difference as none have any inherent value worth a damn at the end of the day. The inherent value argument does not apply once the 'thing' becomes a bubble.

There is no doubt that the vast majority of bitcoin transactions are trading on the price rising and very few transactions are actually using it as a currency. So it isn't actually used in real life as a currency very much.

Interestingly the bitcoin powers that be could 'print' more bitcoin if they chose to, by altering the difficulty factor to target some Bitcoin/USD rate instead of to an arbitrary block production target.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #271 on: December 19, 2017, 09:01:02 pm »
Hah, because I think differently to most people my friend :)

I am looking at it from a different perspective. You seem to be saying 'the textbook calls it a currency'. I am saying 'I can't buy a coffee with it'.

Bitcoin is not a practical currency. It wanted to be a currency, but currently is failing badly. Perhaps it can be fixed?

Once something turns bubbly then it could be tulips, currency, .com shares. It really makes no difference as none have any inherent value worth a damn at the end of the day. The inherent value argument does not apply once the 'thing' becomes a bubble.

There is no doubt that the vast majority of bitcoin transactions are trading on the price rising and very few transactions are actually using it as a currency. So it isn't actually used in real life as a currency very much.

Interestingly the bitcoin powers that be could 'print' more bitcoin if they chose to, by altering the difficulty factor to target some Bitcoin/USD rate instead of to an arbitrary block production target.
I can't exactly buy a coffee with some Albanian lek or Chilean pesos either. I'm fairly sure I could buy a lot more things relevant to me with some Bitcoin than said currencies. None of the other currencies have any inherent value. That's the whole point of them. It's a token value, so you can exchange services and good for value and vice versa.

I'm not arguing it's not a bubble. It may very likely be. But that's not really related to the rest. Tulips and IT companies do have an intrinsic value, yet became part of a bubble too. A bubble can happen anywhere.
 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #272 on: December 19, 2017, 09:15:27 pm »
I have yet to find an example of something that skyrocketed the way Bitcoin and other crypto currency has and didn't fall flat on it's face after a while. Every one of those bubbles people said at the time this one is different.
I'm not saying anything about that. I'm just saying the ever recurring comment that your profits are another's losses is both stale and not necessarily true.

But if other people invest in it to keep the price rising, then the movement runs out of steam and it comes crashing down, the late investors lose their money and you gained from their losses. Your argument is similar to the over-unity claims that a system can generate more energy than is put in, it doesn't work.

Exactly right. Other investments such as stocks and bonds are claims on future cash flows (or goods or services).  Not so with Bitcoin. It is only an IOU whose value is entirely dependent on what someone else is willing to pay for it (in some other currency) or trade for it (in real goods or services). It has no inherent value.

That's true for any investment. Any non consument debtor is an investor. That's the prinzip of economic growth. Money too has no inherent value, until the moment when, covered by the state monopoly of power, it enters the economic cycle. Crytpo-Money is also in the economic cycle and regulates itself in the medium term by this. The question is rather whether it can assert itself without a state monopoly on power or if one don't even allow it to do that
 

Offline nForce

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #273 on: December 19, 2017, 09:20:46 pm »
Hello, I am new to cryptocurrency, so the question is:

If bitcoins/altcoins are not physically stored in my wallet on the computer in some file, why can't I pay with them when using another computer/smartphone etc.? So they are stored in blockchain, and if I know the password I can pay with them from anywhere else?

Thanks for the answer.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #274 on: December 19, 2017, 09:30:30 pm »
People trade traditional currencies for the sake of trading it all the time? Just like they trade gold, which often doesn't even exist, just on paper. Even though gold has some intrinsic value, we'll have to concede that's not what people are after.

Sure but the gains are peanuts, especially compared to the total transactions taking place, unless something is very, very wrong with one of those currencies. The gains occurring with Bitcoin are many orders of magnitude beyond what is reasonable as a currency, and they're occurring purely based on wild speculation. I strongly suspect that the vast majority of Bitcoin transactions taking place are speculative investment in the "currency" itself rather than trade in goods or services. A massive correction is inevitable.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 09:32:22 pm by james_s »
 


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