Author Topic: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?  (Read 54275 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline hendorog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1617
  • Country: nz
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #100 on: December 08, 2017, 04:09:15 am »
Bitcoin transaction fees are a bit of a fun killer as I have just discovered.

I have been saving $20/week for the last couple of months in bitcoin just for interest sake. Now I have 9 small bitcoin amounts in my wallet and it's worth more than double what I have put in. So I decided to sell it.
However, dun dun, dunnn:- to convert it back into cash right now would cost me $100 in fees to get $200 in cash back!

This is partly because the transaction fees are quite high at the moment because there is a backlog. However even if they were normal I would be paying 10% or more in fees.

What I believe I needed to do is 'prep' for selling these by offering a small fee to combine the small transactions into one at a time when there is no backlog. To get it done cheaply, that transaction would take an long time to go through and therefore my ability to sell is out of my control.

Logically this makes a savings plan in bitcoin a bad idea if you are investing regular small amounts. It's a pretty big downside.

To quote Adam Chalmers? (@adam_chal)
Bitcoin was supposed to demonstrate the power of a true free market. Instead it's full of scams, rent-seekers, theft, useless for real purchases and accelerates climate change. Mission accomplished,[/]

Well scams etc are hardly new, so no surprises there. The price volatility is pretty normal, plenty of other examples of that.
The transaction problems are a major issue with Bitcoin obviously but probably could be fixed by a better implementation.

However, I agree, I think the power usage on its own makes the concept non-sustainable long term. Trading electricity for x coins just isn't a good idea these days.
 

Online NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8973
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #101 on: December 08, 2017, 04:50:17 am »
There exist cryptocurrencies that are energy efficient, including some that I mine. The main problem seems to be the "ratchet effect" since there's basically no reason for miners to stop.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline hendorog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1617
  • Country: nz
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #102 on: December 08, 2017, 05:15:48 am »
There exist cryptocurrencies that are energy efficient, including some that I mine. The main problem seems to be the "ratchet effect" since there's basically no reason for miners to stop.

Thats interesting, will look that up. I think the energy usage and the potential for quantum computing to make the entire thing obsolete overnight are the two big threats.
 
The following users thanked this post: mtdoc

Offline HalcyonTopic starter

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5629
  • Country: au
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #103 on: December 08, 2017, 08:50:34 am »
Once cryptos move from a "proof of work" system to a "proof of stake" model, mining will becoming irrelevant. Already it's quite inefficient after you factor in the cost of equipment and electricity.
 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10576
  • Country: gb
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #104 on: December 08, 2017, 03:34:27 pm »
but this actually remains remarkably stable over history. In Roman times you could buy a fine set of clothes for about an ounce of gold

But why?

In practical terms, gold generally speaking, isn't astoundingly useful in an large scale, even less so in modern life than in antiquity, it's not really that rare really is it.  There's piles of gold to satisfy demand, I don't think any industry (semiconductors for example) has trouble buying gold if they need to buy some.

I think gold, and silver, and diamonds etc are valuable mainly because they are desirable things to have, and that's purely because people, for no good reason have decided they are desirable things to have.

You're missing out one crucial characteristic of gold, the thing that makes it stand out. It is incorruptible.

OK, with relatively modern chemistry (relative to humanities relationship with gold) you can change gold, but natural processes don't. You can acquire a mass of grain, you can build a palace, but if you leave then for 50 years they will have decayed but gold will have not. That is both a practical and 'magical' quality. Combine that appeal with limited availability and instant recognisability in both natural and coin form and you can see why gold stands out in history.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 03:36:44 pm by Cerebus »
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline CNe7532294

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 108
  • Country: us
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #105 on: December 08, 2017, 04:48:00 pm »
Also there is another thing to worry about beside bitcoin itself. Lets assume it fails. How many of you are in the video card business? Also how many of you are gamers? It'll be interesting times. Be aware of Nasdaq.
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6272
  • Country: ca
  • Non-expert
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #106 on: December 09, 2017, 01:17:41 am »
I'd be really happy if it wasn't right :)

All of the bitcoin is in one wallet, and I think one address - at least they all came from the same institution to the same wallet so I think that is the case.

I initially tried to send close to the full amount in the wallet and then kept reducing it after getting 'Insufficient funds to pay fee' type messages. The wallet is Copay and it has a 'Send Max Amount' function, so I tried that. It tells me that the fee is $100 NZD which is 30% of the sending amount. Reducing to 'super economy' drops it to about $90 NZD. Obviously the lower I go the longer it will take to happen.

On the faq they mention this:

I think this is part of how Bitcoin works, and probably not a well understood part.

That sounds like you have multiple addresses, copay might be hiding that from you to make things "simpler". $90/15 would be 6 different addresses.
Some wallets will create a new address every time you choose to "add funds".
See if you can find a list in there, the address is 26 to 35 characters long (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address).

Of course for a useful crypto-currency, having 6 addresses would not be a major inconvenience and fees would be pennies or a few dollars at most.
Profile -> Modify profile -> Look and Layout ->  Don't show users' signatures
 
The following users thanked this post: hendorog

Offline Psi

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9889
  • Country: nz
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #107 on: December 09, 2017, 01:26:02 am »
Yep, im in it.

Already more than doubled my money, but i only put in a small amount and am wishing i had put in a little more.
hehe, in the same boat as everyone else.


Personally, i recommend withdrawing your initial investment once the gain is like 3-5x.
That way you can never actually lose out. ever.
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline hendorog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1617
  • Country: nz
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #108 on: December 09, 2017, 01:27:23 am »
I'd be really happy if it wasn't right :)

All of the bitcoin is in one wallet, and I think one address - at least they all came from the same institution to the same wallet so I think that is the case.

I initially tried to send close to the full amount in the wallet and then kept reducing it after getting 'Insufficient funds to pay fee' type messages. The wallet is Copay and it has a 'Send Max Amount' function, so I tried that. It tells me that the fee is $100 NZD which is 30% of the sending amount. Reducing to 'super economy' drops it to about $90 NZD. Obviously the lower I go the longer it will take to happen.

On the faq they mention this:

I think this is part of how Bitcoin works, and probably not a well understood part.

That sounds like you have multiple addresses, copay might be hiding that from you to make things "simpler". $90/15 would be 6 different addresses.
Some wallets will create a new address every time you choose to "add funds".
See if you can find a list in there, the address is 26 to 35 characters long (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address).

Of course for a useful crypto-currency, having 6 addresses would not be a major inconvenience and fees would be pennies or a few dollars at most.

Yes you may well be right, they do say something to that effect in the FAQ for 'privacy' reasons. I haven't yet been able to confirm/deny that this is what has happened though, will dig deeper when I get a chance.

Seems a tad obsessive, but that is the nature of the beast at the moment. When the inevitable bitcoin crash comes hopefully something better will rise from the ashes. It is clearly not a currency, it is more like a virtual commodity as it is not practical to trade with.

 

Offline ebastler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6202
  • Country: de
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #109 on: December 09, 2017, 07:10:05 am »
Personally, i recommend withdrawing your initial investment once the gain is like 3-5x.
That way you can never actually lose out. ever.

Yes, I'm sure you are right there.
I have seen the same advice with respect to gambling casinos.

|O
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37661
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #110 on: December 09, 2017, 07:52:00 am »
You're missing out one crucial characteristic of gold, the thing that makes it stand out. It is incorruptible.

OK, with relatively modern chemistry (relative to humanities relationship with gold) you can change gold, but natural processes don't. You can acquire a mass of grain, you can build a palace, but if you leave then for 50 years they will have decayed but gold will have not. That is both a practical and 'magical' quality.

Gold is like the saying about water molecules - take any given glass of water and it contains thousands of molecules that one passed though Albert Einstein.
The gold you buy likely contains a small percentage that once hung around the neck of a Pharaoh in ancient Egpyt.
 

Offline TerraHertz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3958
  • Country: au
  • Why shouldn't we question everything?
    • It's not really a Blog
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #111 on: December 09, 2017, 01:02:44 pm »
Collecting old scopes, logic analyzers, and unfinished projects. http://everist.org
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26751
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #112 on: December 09, 2017, 02:29:17 pm »
You can go to any coin collectors store, and cheaply buy a bundle of assorted de-monetized paper currencies from around the world. It's an educational experience.
But not all of those where deemed worthless by the governments. Take for example the changeover to the Euro in Europe. In that case we got new money in exchange for the old money.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline TerraHertz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3958
  • Country: au
  • Why shouldn't we question everything?
    • It's not really a Blog
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #113 on: December 10, 2017, 01:39:19 am »
But not all of those where deemed worthless by the governments. Take for example the changeover to the Euro in Europe. In that case we got new money in exchange for the old money.

Certainly. However this doesn't counter the point that governments can demonetize fiat currency, and often do.


Heh. The Bitcoin kerfuffle also has excellent comedy potential. For instance:
  http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-08/bulgaria-government-shocked-discover-it-owns-3-billion-bitcoin
  Bulgaria Government Shocked To Discover It Owns $3 Billion In Bitcoin

Edit to add: Next up, Bulgarian government shocked to discover it has 'misplaced' $3 Billion in bitcoin.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 02:54:20 am by TerraHertz »
Collecting old scopes, logic analyzers, and unfinished projects. http://everist.org
 
The following users thanked this post: SeanB

Offline alpher

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 347
  • Country: ca
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #114 on: December 10, 2017, 02:14:21 am »
Haven't read disscusion so far, but one thing probably that was't mention was this;
Bitcoin is not a Bubble it is a REVOLUTION !!!
emphasis, solely mine.
Dont expect a fair evaluation from those that their very jobs (and very good paying jobs) are at stake.
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 16793
  • Country: lv
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #115 on: December 10, 2017, 02:22:30 am »
You're missing out one crucial characteristic of gold, the thing that makes it stand out. It is incorruptible.

OK, with relatively modern chemistry (relative to humanities relationship with gold) you can change gold, but natural processes don't. You can acquire a mass of grain, you can build a palace, but if you leave then for 50 years they will have decayed but gold will have not. That is both a practical and 'magical' quality.

Gold is like the saying about water molecules - take any given glass of water and it contains thousands of molecules that one passed though Albert Einstein.
The gold you buy likely contains a small percentage that once hung around the neck of a Pharaoh in ancient Egpyt.
Actually it's not. Gold is not like water, it does not circulate in nature.
 

Offline TerraHertz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3958
  • Country: au
  • Why shouldn't we question everything?
    • It's not really a Blog
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #116 on: December 10, 2017, 03:03:25 am »
Actually it's not. Gold is not like water, it does not circulate in nature.

Heh. Don't be so sure.
http://www.pmav.org.au/stories-a-reports/triangle-gold
Collecting old scopes, logic analyzers, and unfinished projects. http://everist.org
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37661
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #117 on: December 10, 2017, 09:27:36 am »
This is excellent deep dive into the crypto ecosystem

 
The following users thanked this post: hendorog

Offline Vtile

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1144
  • Country: fi
  • Ingineer
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #118 on: December 10, 2017, 09:29:31 am »
I just did read a new term for cryptos ... kryptonite currencies.  Bigger fools game and that the energy production need to double if the popularity of the cryptos continues as now. :-DD

I'll stay in traditional investments.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 09:33:02 am by Vtile »
 

Offline Decoman

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 161
  • Country: no
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #119 on: December 10, 2017, 03:59:44 pm »
I followed stories surrounding computer security for a couple of years off twitter for my own amusement, and I have zero faith in computer security and privacy. Somehow, crypto currency doesn't seem appealing to me. Admittely, I don't really understand its appeal so I don't have much to say in that regard.

I swear I've heard some time ago, that with this one OS, at login, pressing the "back" key five times  would bypass the login because of bad code implementation or who-knows-what. And in the bushes, lurks the NSA et al, collecting your politician's freaking DNA, finger prints and whatnot.

I truly fear that the future will be a combination of a police state similar of today (imo dubbed "surveillance state" by those that feel more comfortable with using that label as opposed to 'police state') and most things monitored and backdoored.
 

Offline taydin

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 520
  • Country: tr
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #120 on: December 11, 2017, 10:39:42 am »
I truly fear that the future will be a combination of a police state similar of today (imo dubbed "surveillance state" by those that feel more comfortable with using that label as opposed to 'police state') and most things monitored and backdoored.

Yep, and if you actively take steps to avoid being monitored, then the government will come after you ( "hmm, why don't you let us monitor you? what are you hiding?" )

There is a hilarious feature in web browsers where you can tell the website to "not track you"  :-DD Here is how the website interprets this: "hmm why doesn't he want to be tracked?" "let's put him into a priority list of clients to be definitely tracked".
« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 10:43:21 am by taydin »
Real programmers use machine code!

My hobby projects http://mekatronik.org/forum
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23017
  • Country: gb
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #121 on: December 11, 2017, 10:57:13 am »
There is a hilarious feature in web browsers where you can tell the website to "not track you"  :-DD Here is how the website interprets this: "hmm why doesn't he want to be tracked?" "let's put him into a priority list of clients to be definitely tracked".

DNT is stupid yes. However it's more a "please don't track me" request followed by the response of "err, we're doing it anyway so shut up". There is no point in it existing.
 

Offline paulca

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3994
  • Country: gb
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #122 on: December 11, 2017, 03:21:50 pm »
You're missing out one crucial characteristic of gold, the thing that makes it stand out. It is incorruptible.

But the whole reason that the world moved away from using gold or any other currency of intrinsic value is because:

* They can be faked.   Fake gold coins where a real issue back in their day.
* They are easily stolen.
* In a lot of cases they are hard to store and hard to move/carry/ship
* they are very difficult to trade with if as the denominations are awkward to work with.  If your loaf of bread is not worth a whole gold coin what do you do?  Buy 500 loafs and let the 499 rot?


I suppose you could start scrapping off slithers and using jewellers scales to weigh out the 100mg of gold needed to buy your lunch, but if the person behind you in the queue sneezes while you are doing that, lunch could cost you twice as much.

A quick watch of "Requiem of the American Dream" is good craic.
"What could possibly go wrong?"
Current Open Projects:  STM32F411RE+ESP32+TFT for home IoT (NoT) projects.  Child's advent xmas countdown toy.  Digital audio routing board.
 

Offline woody

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 290
  • Country: nl
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #123 on: December 11, 2017, 04:29:30 pm »
Quote
* They are easily stolen.

This goes all the more for Bitcoin. Stealing them is easier than stealing gold. You don't have to physically move heavy stuff from vaults into dump trucks but a simple hack performed from your lazy chair does the trick. You can't spend the stolen coins easily as the address to which they were sent is public, but laundering schemes take care of that.
 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10576
  • Country: gb
Re: Cryptocurrency -- Is anyone on-board?
« Reply #124 on: December 11, 2017, 04:42:18 pm »
You're missing out one crucial characteristic of gold, the thing that makes it stand out. It is incorruptible.

But the whole reason that the world moved away from using gold or any other currency of intrinsic value is because:

* They can be faked.   Fake gold coins where a real issue back in their day.
* They are easily stolen.
* In a lot of cases they are hard to store and hard to move/carry/ship
* they are very difficult to trade with if as the denominations are awkward to work with.  If your loaf of bread is not worth a whole gold coin what do you do?  Buy 500 loafs and let the 499 rot?


I suppose you could start scrapping off slithers and using jewellers scales to weigh out the 100mg of gold needed to buy your lunch, but if the person behind you in the queue sneezes while you are doing that, lunch could cost you twice as much.

A quick watch of "Requiem of the American Dream" is good craic.

You're missing the entire basic point here and some context.

The context above was about why gold has always been the "gold standard" in human society over the ages - you see, so notable that it has become part of the language.

The basic point is about fiat currencies versus currencies with some substantive backing of intrinsic value. There is a world of difference between using physical gold coins versus using a nominal currency that is backed by a gold standard, or any other basis of intrinsic worth, as opposed to a fiat currency. Nobody is suggesting that precious objects of intrinsic worth are a practical day-to-day medium of exchange, some are suggesting that the traditional backing of currencies by said precious objects might still be a good idea.

I don't know where you get the idea that gold is any more easily stolen than paper money (slightly harder if anything after a few thousand grams) or even cryptocurrencies - $60 million of cryptocurrency went walkies from one exchange only the other day, at least if that was gold it would have weighed 1.5 tonnes - which would have been a bit hard to get down a wire.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf