Dale Dougherty, CEO of Make magazine, accuses Naomi Wu to be fake

[Dubbie]

In terms of pure engineering skills, I think Micah Elizabeth Scott is the one to watch right now.

I 100% agree with you there.
I watch her videos so that I can feel completely and utterly inadequate when it comes to my EE and programming skills. 

[AZCAMERA REVIEWS]

Hello Everybody,

 I am a NEWBIE on this site and I started following this thread after watching some of Naomi Wu's videos. I don't want to rock the boat, but I heard mention in Naomi's videos of how Dale had kept her from participating in certain MAKER events and basically "Poisoning The Water" for her towards competing or participating in various MAKER events in other countries i.e. Thailand. That said, I do realize I don't really know both sides of the story in depth. I feel that Dales'  apology seems genuine. If Dale's apology was given in good faith, it should stand without any kind of backhanded retribution.

I have been a Union Shop Steward/arbitrator for many years and have always fought for the little guy. When I heard about Dale excluding Naomi, thoughts of bully's picking on weaker, different kids at school or on the bus came to mind. I even thought about possibly, he had an axe to grind because he made some sort of inappropriate advances or comments to her and she took the high road! That, of course, is only speculation on my part due to all the sexual misconduct that is going on now in the press. If it could happen to Matt Laur, Charlie Rose and NPR personnel, why not someone at a printed publication?  Getting back on track, I used to stick up for those kids that got picked on while I was in school. I would come to the rescue for the kids in the computer club, musical theater and the guys who were male cheerleaders.

Why do people pick on others? Usually, because they are different than the norm. Let's look at the person "Naomi"  as an individual. She dresses more pretentiously than possibly some may be comfortable with, her look expresses her own artistic individualism. Also, why do so many feel the need to attack her for her cosmetic choices? Again, it is her choice to look the way she does. Many great artists are criticized for their looks, for example in the music world David Bowie, Marilyn Manson and yes...even Elvis who was arrested many times for how he moved when he performed. I know possibly I may be dating myself by talking about the Beatles, but some thought they were SATANIC! Let's also look how through history civilizations have wanted to exterminate whole religious groups based on hate. This same type of cleansing mindset is going on in other countries right this very minute. Let's "LIVE & LET LIVE"! or as the late Rodney King said, "Can't we all just get along"?

Here in the United States, every person is entitled to Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness. Naomi, lives in China and possibly some may feel she is not entitled to the same liberties that we are entitled to here in the United States. With that being said, with my contacts in the press and politics, I would be willing to take action on her behalf if she asks, to right any wrongs here on the US side with the ACLU, AFL-CIO or any other organization that helps oppressed individuals.

Although I have never met her or talked to her, she seems like a nice person. But hey, we can always be fooled by persona. Why not just let her do her own Cyber thing, in her own Cyberworld and not be so judgmental. Let her MAKE!

[NiHaoMike]

Many great artists are criticized for their looks...

She *is* arguably a great artist of modern times. She also doesn't consider herself a model for some reason.

Interesting trivia: She actually wanted to gain a little weight, but gave up because trying to do that is unhealthy!
https://pastebin.com/3B86VBZA
What she wrote also seems to apply to another one of my friends, a former IEEE model, who is even skinnier and to this day remains the skinniest person I have seen in real life.

I have met quite a few women in (software) engineering jobs and they all wear typical male engineer outfits. Probably in order not to stand out and be accepted as a engineer (and for some it still is an uphill battle every now and then). I guess if you are dressed as an engineer you are an engineer.

I know only one female engineer who tries to look like a guy, in fact met her just yesterday because she got called to help debug a problem at work. All the others I have seen just look like normal females. In fact, a lot of the time, it's hard to tell they're engineers from looks alone. That apparently is even more true for the attractive ones.

[tablatronix]

gotta love the backpedaling, would a man have had his credentials equally challenged , or same requirement of references.. hmm

[Buriedcode]

OK, I've read the first few pages of this thread... and I didn't know who Naomi Wu was (or Dale Dougherty for that matter) before reading it.  This of course means I come form a point of ignorance, but also means I just see two people involved in tech.

I am unsure why people call for his resignation after a tweet that was, what appeared to be a question that was a bit 'off' (offensive). Perhaps he simply handled it badly, and a person in such a position should of course know better.  But I don't understand how such matters can be blown completely out of proportion these days?  His apology looked carefully crafted, which can only make matters worse as people will see it as not a real apology - I suspect his apology would have been much more genuine if the issue hadn't been inflated, and he wasn't under the spotlight.

It is as if people are primed to jump on any kind of comment that can be seen as prejudice against race, gender, religion or anything.. and jump over themselves to condemn who they see as the 'aggressor' whilst fiercely defending the 'victim'.  And others are primed to go the other direction - to accuse people of being SJW and 'wet liberals'. This of course polarizes matters and makes it a much-talked about issue (I refuse to use the word trending).  Whilst it is true that tweets from famous folk can influence people, and her business seems to be based on internet fame, how did this ever become a 'thing' ?

I'm aware that I'm adding to it as a 'thing' by commenting... but it really does seem that it is third parties who are all too ready to cry sexism, or racism that actually make matters of equality worse, because anyone who questions it is seen as being against equality.  This just increases the perceived gap between SJW/the left, and the 'straight talking' right, even though very few are actually at these extremes.

I think it is a sign of my age, I'm out of the loop, and don't understand the implications for their careers (I'm assuming it must have damaged both their careers somehow). 

[Buriedcode]

Interesting trivia: She actually wanted to gain a little weight, but gave up because trying to do that is unhealthy!

Not sure if I misread your post, how is trying to gain weight when one is underweight 'unhealthy' ?  I mean it could be, some are just naturally slim, and trying to move away from that could cause problems, but.. making a sweeping statement like 'trying to gain weight is unhealthy' without context is really no different from saying that trying to lose weight is unhealthy.  Also, what has weight got to do with this?  Why does anyone's weight matter?  I'm sure engineers come in a range of shapes and sizes.

I know only one female engineer who tries to look like a guy, in fact met her just yesterday because she got called to help debug a problem at work. All the others I have seen just look like normal females. In fact, a lot of the time, it's hard to tell they're engineers from looks alone. That apparently is even more true for the attractive ones.

Ok, now I'm just picking on you.  I cannot stand people saying 'females' instead of women, girls, ladies etc..  It is as if one is narrating on a nature program, trying to avoid using tags like 'women' and replacing them with vague sterile species independent terms like 'female' or 'male' in an effort to seem unbiased or something.  I imagine this is because one simply doesn't want to offend (respectable) but that assumes that women find any other term offensive, when I'm sure most really don't care.

All the others I have seen just look like normal females.

Again, you can see why someone might read that and see it as sexist. It implies you have a specific idea of what a 'normal woman' looks like, or should look like.  I realise you are not intentionally trying to be offensive, and I am not accusing you of being sexist, I just thought you should be aware that it is that sort of language which tends to be used to perpetuate ideas about sexism by those who steadfastly believe its everywhere.  On the one hand, in certain circumstances things have gone too far in an effort to not offend anyone, with some being far too sensitive.. but on the other, one still needs to call people out on things.

[Cerebus]

I am unsure why people call for his resignation after a tweet that was, what appeared to be a question that was a bit 'off' (offensive).

In my case, because he is [supposed to be] a professional journalist. He checked his story with a reliable source (Bunny Huang) who said 'It's not true' and then went ahead and 'published' his story despite having had it denied by a reliable source, causing significant damage to the reputation of a person with less of a media platform than he has. Back when I was a tech journalist, behaviour like that would have got me fired by my publisher, not only for dragging their reputation into the mud along with mine, but for a serious breach of professional ethics. For me it's a basic issue in professional ethics and he fell not merely short, but culpably short, of the standards required.

Race, gender, big boobs, whatever, don't come into it - my opinion would be the same whatever the characteristics of the slighted person because Dale Dougherty knew, or should have known, better than to publish a deliberate falsehood, particularly where there was such an imbalance of power between him, well-known editor of Make magazine and, a Maker with a relatively small media platform.

[Buriedcode]

I see. I've searched the thread - perhaps not well enough, and I can't find an article where he makes such claims, just a tweet that says he is questioning who she really is  - which can mean any number of things, but I imagine is particularly damaging for those who make a living from youtube. Anyone got a link? I did find some particularly vitriolic stuff from reddit and a blog though, didn't see his name mentioned.  Every time I see a story about misogyny or harassment, I first think its over inflated, only to find some really quite nasty posts highlighting the problem.

The article:
http://www.newsweek.com/naomi-wu-sexy-cyborg-misogyny-silicon-valley-704372

Maker CEO Dale Dougherty has harassed Wu online for weeks, alleging that she's only a model who serves as the face of engineering projects completed by a team of men.

I cannot find his harrassing articles, tweets, posts, only references to the controversy - have they been deleted?

Also, I'm afraid I don't have much faith in tech journalists anymore, after many articles on crowd-funding projects that are clearly bogus, as well as lack of fact checking, or blatant misunderstanding with regard to basic principles.  I say 'anymore' not because they've all of a sudden been dumbed down, just that 'technology' is much more popular subject these days, and therefore there are many more articles written about it by those less than qualified who are more willing to believe hype rather than actually think for themselves or do any kind of research.  I'm excluding those who work for Huffingtonpost, and popular UK papers (daily fail) here as those would just drag it down even further.

A CEO of a magazine speculating publicly like that, is at best, a sign of ignorance about the world we live in.  As Trump and many celebrities have shown repeatedly - best get your tweets vetted by someone you trust before you actually send it out there.   I imagine if he added question marks to the tweet the reaction would have been a bit muted.  So from what I've seen (again, I am probably missing a lot here) I'm on the side of idiocy rather than malice, and he handled the whole situation poorly. 

[FrankBuss]

A CEO of a magazine speculating publicly like that, is at best, a sign of ignorance about the world we live in.  As Trump and many celebrities have shown repeatedly - best get your tweets vetted by someone you trust before you actually send it out there.   I imagine if he added question marks to the tweet the reaction would have been a bit muted.  So from what I've seen (again, I am probably missing a lot here) I'm on the side of idiocy rather than malice, and he handled the whole situation poorly.

Dale didn't explain how he came to the conclusion, but as you can read in Bunnie's blog, a known trustworthy source, he contacted Bunnie on November 2nd and got the answer that she is real. Then he nevertheless tweeted on November 5th the tweet you can see in my screenshot on the first page. And yes, Dale deleted this tweet and other tweets meanwhile. I would say this was not idiocy, but malicious.

[EEVblog]

Maker CEO Dale Dougherty has harassed Wu online for weeks, alleging that she's only a model who serves as the face of engineering projects completed by a team of men.

I cannot find his harrassing articles, tweets, posts, only references to the controversy - have they been deleted?

Yes he deleted them all, standard arse covering procedure when SHTF.

A CEO of a magazine speculating publicly like that, is at best, a sign of ignorance about the world we live in. 

It was a very deliberate malicious act on his part in this case.

[EEVblog]

I am a NEWBIE on this site and I started following this thread after watching some of Naomi Wu's videos. I don't want to rock the boat, but I heard mention in Naomi's videos of how Dale had kept her from participating in certain MAKER events and basically "Poisoning The Water" for her towards competing or participating in various MAKER events in other countries i.e. Thailand. That said, I do realize I don't really know both sides of the story in depth.

There are indeed two issues here. One is the malicious claim made by Dale (now retracted), and the other is him supposedly keeping her from being invited to Maker events (I have not looked into this).
The later one he actually has every right to do if he so chooses. No one is "owed a platform" as a guest speaker, market stall holder, or whatever it is at any privately run event. The organisers can invite or not invite anyone they chose and the market will vote with their feet whether they want to attend and support that event in response.

[NiHaoMike]

Not sure if I misread your post, how is trying to gain weight when one is underweight 'unhealthy' ?  I mean it could be, some are just naturally slim, and trying to move away from that could cause problems, but.. making a sweeping statement like 'trying to gain weight is unhealthy' without context is really no different from saying that trying to lose weight is unhealthy.  Also, what has weight got to do with this?  Why does anyone's weight matter?  I'm sure engineers come in a range of shapes and sizes.

In her specific case, trying to gain weight is unhealthy. We need to have a side by side thermal image of her with a "normal" weight person to confirm the theory that the excess energy is being converted to heat. (Thermodynamics says it must be, but real evidence is undeniable.) And maybe even get DNA samples of many "natrually skinny" people as well as "normal" people in order to try to get an understanding exactly where in the DNA that happens.

At least in the US, more engineers seem to be overweight rather than underweight or even "normal" weight. That's quite a big problem.

Ok, now I'm just picking on you.  I cannot stand people saying 'females' instead of women, girls, ladies etc..  It is as if one is narrating on a nature program, trying to avoid using tags like 'women' and replacing them with vague sterile species independent terms like 'female' or 'male' in an effort to seem unbiased or something.  I imagine this is because one simply doesn't want to offend (respectable) but that assumes that women find any other term offensive, when I'm sure most really don't care.

Again, you can see why someone might read that and see it as sexist. It implies you have a specific idea of what a 'normal woman' looks like, or should look like.  I realise you are not intentionally trying to be offensive, and I am not accusing you of being sexist, I just thought you should be aware that it is that sort of language which tends to be used to perpetuate ideas about sexism by those who steadfastly believe its everywhere.  On the one hand, in certain circumstances things have gone too far in an effort to not offend anyone, with some being far too sensitive.. but on the other, one still needs to call people out on things.

The term "female" is a broader category that includes the two subcategories "girl" and "woman", of which not everyone seems to agree on where to divide the line. Two engineers that most people would define, by age, as women - Micah Elizabeth Scott and MsMadLemon - have referred to themselves as "girls".

[aargee]

Oh look, a National Enquirer thread.

[BBBbbb]

In her specific case, trying to gain weight is unhealthy. We need to have a side by side thermal image of her with a "normal" weight person to confirm the theory that the excess energy is being converted to heat. (Thermodynamics says it must be, but real evidence is undeniable.) And maybe even get DNA samples of many "natrually skinny" people as well as "normal" people in order to try to get an understanding exactly where in the DNA that happens.

Wut?

No really, what did you (try to) say?  I have trouble understanding it.
Unless you try to give some recognized arguments (not bro science) to what you tried to say here I have to call this BS.


Apart from dumbass Dale, I can completely understand why MAKE didn't want her in their events. If they are aiming at having a big portion of their "consumers" kids and families (second is somewhat implied by the first), Naomi's presence could have neutral to negative effect on the targeted audience. Simply "sex sells" model doesn't go nicely with the "family" approach.

[NiHaoMike]

Naomi is unusual in that she eats way more than you would expect for how skinny she is.
https://imgur.com/a/ky02J
Assuming she's not somehow breaking the laws of physics, the only explanation is that rather than the excess energy being stored, it is being converted to heat, which would show up on a thermal image. A little bit like a NiMH battery where trying to charge beyond 100% just causes it to heat up.

And because that phenomenon is quite rare (I only know 5 people who are like that, 4 of them Asians), DNA analysis would help get a better understanding of the biology behind it  Maybe that would give useful insight into how to solve the obesity epidemic.

[nctnico]

Naomi is unusual in that she eats way more than you would expect for how skinny she is.
https://imgur.com/a/ky02J
Assuming she's not somehow breaking the laws of physics, the only explanation is that rather than the excess energy being stored, it is being converted to heat, which would show up on a thermal image. A little bit like a NiMH battery where trying to charge beyond 100% just causes it to heat up.

And because that phenomenon is quite rare (I only know 5 people who are like that, 4 of them Asians), DNA analysis would help get a better understanding of the biology behind it  Maybe that would give useful insight into how to solve the obesity epidemic.

I'm not sure it is such a rare phenomenon. Google 'brown fat' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_adipose_tissue . BTW I know several people who can just eat anything and stay skinny (no, I'm not one of them). Another explaination is that the food isn't fully processed and leaves the body as-is.

Apart from dumbass Dale, I can completely understand why MAKE didn't want her in their events. If they are aiming at having a big portion of their "consumers" kids and families (second is somewhat implied by the first), Naomi's presence could have neutral to negative effect on the targeted audience. Simply "sex sells" model doesn't go nicely with the "family" approach.

That is easely mitigated by requesting the participants of an event to adhere to a dress code.

[NiHaoMike]

If it was that common, obesity wouldn't be an epidemic. It probably is pretty common with Asians, easily explaining why 4 out of 5 of the people I know who are like that are Asians and why Asians tend to be skinny in general.

Naomi has "toned down" her appearance to fit into events where her usual level of "showing off" is not welcome. It is true, however, that such limits make it harder for her to distinguish herself from models like Joanne Chiang who have always been at that level.
https://imgur.com/a/X85wY

[BBBbbb]

Naomi is unusual in that she eats way more than you would expect for how skinny she is.
https://imgur.com/a/ky02J
Assuming she's not somehow breaking the laws of physics, the only explanation is that rather than the excess energy being stored, it is being converted to heat, which would show up on a thermal image. A little bit like a NiMH battery where trying to charge beyond 100% just causes it to heat up.

And because that phenomenon is quite rare (I only know 5 people who are like that, 4 of them Asians), DNA analysis would help get a better understanding of the biology behind it  Maybe that would give useful insight into how to solve the obesity epidemic.

I'm not sure it is such a rare phenomenon. Google 'brown fat' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_adipose_tissue . BTW I know several people who can just eat anything and stay skinny (no, I'm not one of them). Another explaination is that the food isn't fully processed and leaves the body as-is.

Your giving superpowers to brown fat, effects/role of the brown fat is far far slower and smaller than the rest of the metabolic processes in your body. Also its amount is limited compared to the "white" one.
And no, unless you have one of several serious conditions (endangering your overall health) you cannot eat anything and stay skinny. It comes down to people's subjective view of "eating anything", and sometimes simply disregarding the activity level of those people. Even with an above average activity of your thyroid gland you could easily eat more than you burn, and get fet. (e.g. people  misusing T3/T4 in high doses with out intended results)

Thermal camera? You must be joking? We aren't a heat sink on an LDO, variation in temperature of just a few degrees indicates a problem. And don't forget we do have thermal regulation, except the Reptilians among us.

Please link any reputable source (article or a study in the relevant field) for such claims if you hold them to be true.

Apart from dumbass Dale, I can completely understand why MAKE didn't want her in their events. If they are aiming at having a big portion of their "consumers" kids and families (second is somewhat implied by the first), Naomi's presence could have neutral to negative effect on the targeted audience. Simply "sex sells" model doesn't go nicely with the "family" approach.

That is easely mitigated by requesting the participants of an event to adhere to a dress code.

You could get other participants offended and attract negative comments, and it would not be fair even to Naomi to ask her to change her approach.
Most importantly, it still wouldn't change the fact that your talking about two business models that don't get along nicely. (Considering that MAKE has the previously mentioned busines model)

[NiHaoMike]

And no, unless you have one of several serious conditions (endangering your overall health) you cannot eat anything and stay skinny. It comes down to people's subjective view of "eating anything", and sometimes simply disregarding the activity level of those people. Even with an above average activity of your thyroid gland you could easily eat more than you burn, and get fet. (e.g. people  misusing T3/T4 in high doses with out intended results)

Thermal camera? You must be joking? We aren't a heat sink on an LDO, variation in temperature of just a few degrees indicates a problem. And don't forget we do have thermal regulation, except the Reptilians among us.

Please link any reputable source (article or a study in the relevant field) for such claims if you hold them to be true.

All 5 of the "eat a lot and stay skinny" people I know seem to be very healthy, even the former IEEE model who is even skinnier than Naomi.

Although the "core" temperature is quite tightly controlled, the surface temperature can vary a lot and that's what the thermal camera detects. (Indeed, varying the effective "core to surface" thermal resistance is one of the mechanisms used to keep the temperature constant.)

[Bud]

What do you mean by iEEE model? Never heard of such term.

[NiHaoMike]

"IEEE model" simply refers to the models (who are also engineers) whose purpose is to "advertise" the IEEE events in college. It's apparently a Texas thing since apart from Texas A&M (the university I went to), I have only heard of it being done at University of Texas. What they do is pretty simple - stand outside the room for a few minutes before the event begins, then go onto the stage, introduce the guest speaker(s), and sometimes ask questions relating to the topic of the event.

As for how they dress for such events, pretty much like Joanne Chiang - showing off their beauty in a way that would be acceptable in most workplaces.

[Bud]

models (who are also engineers) whose purpose is to "advertise" the IEEE events in college.

 

[NiHaoMike]

At many engineering colleges in the US, the IEEE hosts events intended to allow students to learn from the "real world" side of engineering. At Texas A&M, the events apparently needed models to make them more popular. The models aren't just models - they're attractive looking engineers who help host IEEE events as a way to do social networking. They actually enjoy talking about engineering and are very knowledgeable. A little bit like the interactive Scanlime live streams but in real life.

If there's actually a demand for art+engineering TV that is a bit less "show off" than SexyCyborg, that would be a great niche for Joanne Tech Lover and/or CaitlinV3 to expand into.

[WastelandTek]

...
For me this thread is closed.

good riddance

[Galenbo]

I look at her as being an actor, like the front "men" of Milli Vanilli were.
They did that very good, very successful.

But on the society side, I don't think it's a good thing.
It could make women, who previously wanted to go into science/electronics, think they have to comply to that kind of looks and image.