Ebay global shipping - Pitney Bowes scam?

[wraper]

I'm not a lawyer nor anything remotely resembling it, but that is illegal. An invoice with a clear statement of the VAT paid is mandatory no matter you are a business or a consumer.

No it's not. You are not paying to EU company. Therefore no VAT in the invoice. You pay for all expenses (including VAT which will be paid) to get your goods cleared at customs, that does not mean they technically can or are obliged provide a VAT invoice to you.

Whatever you pay must be reflected in an invoice, period.

You don't pay to an European company, but you pay local VAT to Customs? You must receive an invoice. If the courier is doing the paperwork for you they must still provide an invoice. Exchanges of money for goods or services are reflected in invoices.

How do you expect VAT to be present if there is no VAT paid as such at the moment when you pay to Pitney Bowes? It is not a EU company and therefore it cannot state VAT. You pay them for service (where they spend that money later for paying taxes, including paying VAT to the customs) and they have no VAT number to begin with. If they state the VAT in the invoice, IMO it becomes a fraudulent invoice that very moment. Want a proper invoice for customs clearance, pay usual customs broker price for companies (like EUR 50 here). I don't like to be a devil's advocate here, but what is people call fraud - is not. And what they want from Pitney Bowes does not make legal sense in current process how GSP works.

[mikeselectricstuff]

GSP should be avoided wherever possible. They have been known to destroy items they think might be hazardous ( like nixie and vacuum tubes) with no enquiries or recourse.

[BravoV]

Its obvious your tax office is no better than those 2nd world developing countries tax offices, everything has it's price ... simply everything there is bribe-able ... err ... I mean willingly to stay ignorance.

As I'm aware, Pitney Bowes in developing countries, example like mine, is well known for specialization in lobbying government agencies, its roots back then when they had a really-really close relationship with "procurement dept" for government, especially at gov's Post Offices all over the world, don't need to be a genius to imagine what was happened behind the scene there.

[bd139]

Well this thread certainly absolves me of any guilt for nicking discarded Sun kit out of their skip in early 00's

[TopLoser]

I'm not a lawyer nor anything remotely resembling it, but that is illegal. An invoice with a clear statement of the VAT paid is mandatory no matter you are a business or a consumer.

No it's not. You are not paying to EU company. Therefore no VAT in the invoice. You pay for all expenses (including VAT which will be paid) to get your goods cleared at customs, that does not mean they technically can or are obliged provide a VAT invoice to you.

Ok... so if PB (non EU company and hence paying VAT on your behalf to get stuff through customs) somehow manages to evade paying that VAT (by misdeclaring a container full of stuff as ‘tractor spares’, for example) or misdeclaring the true value then they get to keep the VAT they collected from you.

They’re up to no good however you dress it up.

[wraper]

I'm not a lawyer nor anything remotely resembling it, but that is illegal. An invoice with a clear statement of the VAT paid is mandatory no matter you are a business or a consumer.

No it's not. You are not paying to EU company. Therefore no VAT in the invoice. You pay for all expenses (including VAT which will be paid) to get your goods cleared at customs, that does not mean they technically can or are obliged provide a VAT invoice to you.

Ok... so if PB (non EU company and hence paying VAT on your behalf to get stuff through customs) somehow manages to evade paying that VAT (by misdeclaring a container full of stuff as ‘tractor spares’, for example) or misdeclaring the true value then they get to keep the VAT they collected from you.

They’re up to no good however you dress it up.

I didn't mean that. They pay VAT, but not in a way that buyer can recover it afterwards as all money go through overseas company. As I said, for that to work, they would need either to buy the goods from seller, import in bulk, then resell goods to you as a EU company. Or clearance should be done for your item individually by EU customs broker that works with you directly. Both variants are not worth it when their service is targeted on private buyers, just for the sake of few commercial customers.

[Towger]

PB has a presence in may EU countries, a quick look at the website will give them.  It did not take long to track down their Irish VAT number IE6440299O.
But the question still arrives as to how they handle the VAT Payment to Customs, they call it 'Import Charges' which in this case is not 23% of the Item or Item + Shipping cost etc.  PayPal says the payment was to "Pitney Bowes, Inc" which would imply a US Company.  Indeed if it was an EU/Irish company then they should have added additional VAT on the 'Service' they offer.

EBay:

Order total
Subtotal             $40.00
Shipping              $54.02
  - International leg   $26.82
  - Domestic leg          $28.00
Import charges     $12.88
Total                   $107.70

PayPal Seller

Item        USD 40.00
Shipping  USD 28.00
You paid  USD 68.00

PayPal PB

Import charges USD 12.88
Shipping           USD 26.82
You paid           USD 39.70 at "Pitney Bowes, Inc" <-- US Company ??

[CatalinaWOW]

All of this discussion makes perfectly clear why I as a US seller prefer the GSP.  Not because I want PB to make money.  Not because I want Ebay to make money.  But because I don't want to deal with tax and import laws of a bunch of different countries, with different rules for resellers, personal use, ....

Electronics is a hobby for me.  I feed that hobby with sales of gear I have found or accumulated.  I have no interest in becoming expert in international trade, tax law or accounting.

That is not a knock on any country or group of countries.  Here in the US we have plenty of our own laws and regulations, some of which make sense only to lawyers.  But my partial understanding of that one system is more than enough for me.

[glarsson]

But because I don't want to deal with tax and import laws of a bunch of different countries, with different rules for resellers, personal use, ....

That problem is usually taken care of by the buyer. Just send it away. Either the item arrives without having a ransom on it (and a happy buyer) or the customs/post office will contact the buyer and demand ransom money. The eBay global shipping is the odd method.

[Howardlong]

All of this discussion makes perfectly clear why I as a US seller prefer the GSP.  Not because I want PB to make money.  Not because I want Ebay to make money.  But because I don't want to deal with tax and import laws of a bunch of different countries, with different rules for resellers, personal use, ....

Electronics is a hobby for me.  I feed that hobby with sales of gear I have found or accumulated.  I have no interest in becoming expert in international trade, tax law or accounting.

That is not a knock on any country or group of countries.  Here in the US we have plenty of our own laws and regulations, some of which make sense only to lawyers.  But my partial understanding of that one system is more than enough for me.

Precisely, I completely understand why sellers like GSP.

I will add though that commercial buyers in the EU (who will mostly be VAT registered) will be paying your prices at ~20% higher than you receive, and therefore you need to be aware that you are competing against local EU pricing, and sellers who use more traditional shipping. Essentially you are pricing yourself out of the market to some degree.

Ebay sellers who choose to go directly through couriers like Fedex, UPS, DHL etc rather than GSP, enjoy the benefit that those couriers present proper VAT invoices, and so buyers can reclaim that ~20% tax in their returns.

The crucial question is why is it that Fedex, UPS, DHL, even USPS, can provide, directly or directly VAT invoices, but Shitney-Bowels cannot.

[wraper]

But because I don't want to deal with tax and import laws of a bunch of different countries, with different rules for resellers, personal use, ....

That problem is usually taken care of by the buyer. Just send it away. Either the item arrives without having a ransom on it (and a happy buyer) or the customs/post office will contact the buyer and demand ransom money. The eBay global shipping is the odd method.

Yeah? Other than for cheap items, some buyers are surprised they are hit with taxes or want fake value declared. If you ship by anything but post there will be a huge customs broker fee. Others will leave you a negative feedback if you declare fake value. And it depends on each country what will fly through the customs. Not to say other issues like slow shipping, unhappy buyers, scammers, etc...

[wraper]

Ebay sellers who choose to go directly through couriers like Fedex, UPS, DHL etc rather than GSP, enjoy the benefit that those couriers present proper VAT invoices, and so buyers can reclaim that ~20% tax in their returns.

And be happy to provide paperwork and pay like EUR 50 to customs broker. Often it exceeds the VAT you will reclaim.

The crucial question is why is it that Fedex, UPS, DHL, even USPS, can provide, directly or directly VAT invoices, but Shitney-Bowels cannot.

Because look above  .

[mikeselectricstuff]

All of this discussion makes perfectly clear why I as a US seller prefer the GSP.  Not because I want PB to make money.  Not because I want Ebay to make money.  But because I don't want to deal with tax and import laws of a bunch of different countries, with different rules for resellers, personal use, ....

You do not have to deal with the tax system or laws of any other country.
You just declare the value-the other country does the rest.

[wraper]

All of this discussion makes perfectly clear why I as a US seller prefer the GSP.  Not because I want PB to make money.  Not because I want Ebay to make money.  But because I don't want to deal with tax and import laws of a bunch of different countries, with different rules for resellers, personal use, ....

You do not have to deal with the tax system or laws of any other country.
You just declare the value-the other country does the rest.

In theory yes. In realty, your problems do not end there. You are responsible until product is received. Say, you may receive negative feedback just because buyer did not like experience with customs. Or buyer refuses to pay customs broker fee and VAT.

[Howardlong]

Ebay sellers who choose to go directly through couriers like Fedex, UPS, DHL etc rather than GSP, enjoy the benefit that those couriers present proper VAT invoices, and so buyers can reclaim that ~20% tax in their returns.

And be happy to provide paperwork and pay like EUR 50 to customs broker. Often it exceeds the VAT you will reclaim.

The crucial question is why is it that Fedex, UPS, DHL, even USPS, can provide, directly or directly VAT invoices, but Shitney-Bowels cannot.

Because look above  .

A) it’s not EUR50, more like Eur20, often much less.
B) for TE, the most obvious use case for many of us on this forum, the VAT component is typically several Eur100s, making a <Eur20 admin charge dwindle into insignificance.
C) Errrr... have you see how much Pitney Bowes charge for the privilege of mishandling your goods and pinching the VAT?

[wraper]

A) it’s not EUR50, more like Eur20, often much less.

In Latvia For private person it can be free if you deal with customs directly through their website. Company can do only through customs broker and customs broker charge companies 2x as much than private person = around EUR 50.

B) for TE, the most obvious use case for many of us on this forum, the VAT component is typically several Eur100s, making a <Eur20 admin charge dwindle into insignificance.

Then don't use GSP for such goods = don't buy at all in most cases. If you want to use service not intended for companies -> your problems.

C) Errrr... have you see how much Pitney Bowes charge for the privilege of mishandling your goods and pinching the VAT?

They don't pinch VAT , although I'm sure they optimize their taxes. They won't modify their procedure just to make a few people from non target audience happy. I'll say it again, it's not possible to make customs clearance process that is both streamlined and suitable for companies at the same time.

[Someone]

Ebay sellers who choose to go directly through couriers like Fedex, UPS, DHL etc rather than GSP, enjoy the benefit that those couriers present proper VAT invoices, and so buyers can reclaim that ~20% tax in their returns.

And be happy to provide paperwork and pay like EUR 50 to customs broker. Often it exceeds the VAT you will reclaim.

The crucial question is why is it that Fedex, UPS, DHL, even USPS, can provide, directly or directly VAT invoices, but Shitney-Bowels cannot.

Because look above  .

A) it’s not EUR50, more like Eur20, often much less.

You can select any country you like and see Fedex fees here:
http://www.fedex.com/ancillary/go/service/?pt=cl
Seems the UK is 40EUR and on the low end of their worldwide pricing. One of the many problems with online buying (ebay included) is that sellers are either not clear which courier they intend to use, or just outright misrepresent the postal method they are using (advertise post, send by courier).

[CatalinaWOW]

The number of replies telling me either I am wrong, or I am right, or the even though I am wrong I am effectively right confirms my opinion.

My experience is that for EU countries all I have to do is declare a value.  But some confusion about the value.  If I sold below what someone thinks is the market price what is the value?  Is the value sales price less fees?  Who is in the EU today?  What is this week US export form. 

Quite aside from the legal issues international shipping with the major carriers is absurdly expensive.  Makes GSP look cheap.  There are much lower cost alternatives, but they require much more interaction and compete with GSP for slowness.

As I said I sell just to support my hobby.  I already resent the effort to take a bunch of pictures and fill out eBay's sales forms.  So it doesn't take much to stop me.   It would take very little to make me check the domestic sales only box and not deal even with GSP.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The number of replies telling me either I am wrong, or I am right, or the even though I am wrong I am effectively right confirms my opinion.

My experience is that for EU countries all I have to do is declare a value.  But some confusion about the value.  If I sold below what someone thinks is the market price what is the value?  Is the value sales price less fees?  Who is in the EU today?  What is this week US export form. 

There should be no confusion about the price - it is simply the sale price that the buyer pays, excluding shipping ( ship cost gets added to taxable value at the destination, so important this is not included as it will effectively get doubled). AFAIK it is no different from the US to any country, US or elsewhere

This is in the  context of shipping direct via post or courier - GSP may be different - I have no experience, maybe actually more complicated if they distinguish between EU and elsewhere?

[CatalinaWOW]

While the price charged seems simple and the right answer there are many jurisdictions who do not treated it this way.  Why?  Because all over the world people have set up sweetheart transactions to avoid taxes.  I will sell you the Eifel tower for one Euro.  Later you choose to sell me Neuschwanstein for one euro.  Establishing the value of each.  Thence the concept of fair market value.  Which is equally susceptible to distortion.

[justanothercanuck]

I think I've posted on one of these ebay shipping threads before...   

Anyways...  its been known for a while that they're crap.  Plus, ebay's system of "only verified marketplace sellers can post more than one ad" prohibits new people from making a business on there, so I tend to avoid them unless I can't find what I need anywhere else (and sell my unneeded stuff on craigslist or kijiji).

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ebay+global+shipping+program+pitney+bowes

[mikeselectricstuff]

While the price charged seems simple and the right answer there are many jurisdictions who do not treated it this way.  Why?  Because all over the world people have set up sweetheart transactions to avoid taxes.  I will sell you the Eifel tower for one Euro.  Later you choose to sell me Neuschwanstein for one euro.  Establishing the value of each.  Thence the concept of fair market value.  Which is equally susceptible to distortion.

That is not your problem as a seller

[Howardlong]

A) it’s not EUR50, more like Eur20, often much less.

In Latvia For private person it can be free if you deal with customs directly through their website. Company can do only through customs broker and customs broker charge companies 2x as much than private person = around EUR 50.

B) for TE, the most obvious use case for many of us on this forum, the VAT component is typically several Eur100s, making a <Eur20 admin charge dwindle into insignificance.

Then don't use GSP for such goods = don't buy at all in most cases. If you want to use service not intended for companies -> your problems.

C) Errrr... have you see how much Pitney Bowes charge for the privilege of mishandling your goods and pinching the VAT?

They don't pinch VAT , although I'm sure they optimize their taxes. They won't modify their procedure just to make a few people from non target audience happy. I'll say it again, it's not possible to make customs clearance process that is both streamlined and suitable for companies at the same time.

“Then don’t use GSP” - it’s frequently the only choice offered by sellers.

“they optimize their taxes” - you mean they offset someone else’s VAT payment against theirs? If so, that is definitely something HMRC should be looking at, I’d love to be able to do that fiddle!

“Few people” - there are tens of millions of VAT registered entities.

“It’s not posssible” - and yet other shippers can?

Look, I am not arguing it’s not convenient for sellers, it most certainly is. And I’m not arguing that some retail customers may find it convenient, notwithstanding PB’s glacially slow and low quality logistics.

I am just trying to make sellers aware that in only offering GSP, particularly for high value items, you are automatically making your items significantly less competitive for buyers who are EU VAT registered entities (i.e., companies from one man bands and up) as they cannot reclaim the VAT which is around 20%.

If you trade in higher value items like TE for example, I would imagine that most of your purchasers will be business customers, and in the EU that means they’ll be VAT registered.

[wraper]

“they optimize their taxes” - you mean they offset someone else’s VAT payment against theirs? If so, that is definitely something HMRC should be looking at, I’d love to be able to do that fiddle!

No I don't  . Don't put words in my mouth.

“Few people” - there are tens of millions of VAT registered entities.

Yeah, and absolute majority don't care buying on ebay, especially buy something expensive using GSP. Don't assume that every company needs used T&M equipment which is scarcely available in EU.

“It’s not posssible” - and yet other shippers can?

If you dare to care reading what I wrote previously multiple times, there is an answer why. Including this very sentence of mine which you cut off second part from.

[wraper]

“Few people” - there are tens of millions of VAT registered entities.

Will you make your process 5x more complicated to get 5% more customers? Where additional expenses will eat all of additional income and likely even much more.