Electronics at sea

[Herr R aus B]

When travelling as a passenger on a container vessel, you sometimes get plenty of time between ports - so it's a good idea to have a minimalistic portable lab at hand to for instance finally code a proper I2C implementation for the balcony watering system back home... I didn't dare to take an EEVblog multimeter with me, but therefore I have a solar driven waving queen... Nice :-)

[gildasd]

An onboard mini lab is also in the plans here...

I sail on a cable layer, so 12/12h, so I don’t have as much time as on a “cruise” vessel.

My next plan is to simply learn I2C with an Arduino mini.

[Herr R aus B]

Good luck! :-)

[ivaylo]

Why are you a passenger on a container vessel?

[Cyberdragon]

I'd beware of those batteries and ancient capacitors having fun times all over your stuff.

[gildasd]

Good luck! :-)

Being on an Offshore ship, i am jealous of your open window and being able to do electronics in a cabin.
Here you need a permit to charge your phone...

[Beamin]

Is there a limit to how much stuff you bring on board? I would bring a 30-06 to pick off Somali pirates and an ak for close range/over the side. Baffles my mind how big ships don't/can't have at least some guns on board or a way to hide them just in case. How long is the voyage from where to where? Do you work on the boat?

What would be really cool is an SDR or a SW transceiver with big spool of wire for improvised antennas. You would have a really good location: relatively elevated over a perfectly flat ground plane miles from most transmitters. VLF might even be possible depending on how much 60hz hum there is. Is the engine from the ship electrically noisy? I guess ground wouldn't be a problem as there would be metal everywhere.

Every try to coble together a DIY emergency beacon on a swaying life raft while trying not to make holes with a hot soldering iron?

[gildasd]

Is there a limit to how much stuff you bring on board? I would bring a 30-06 to pick off Somali pirates and an ak for close range/over the side. Baffles my mind how big ships don't/can't have at least some guns on board or a way to hide them just in case. How long is the voyage from where to where? Do you work on the boat?

What would be really cool is an SDR or a SW transceiver with big spool of wire for improvised antennas. You would have a really good location: relatively elevated over a perfectly flat ground plane miles from most transmitters. VLF might even be possible depending on how much 60hz hum there is. Is the engine from the ship electrically noisy? I guess ground wouldn't be a problem as there would be metal everywhere.

Every try to coble together a DIY emergency beacon on a swaying life raft while trying not to make holes with a hot soldering iron?

When a ship from a responsible company is within 200nm of a pirate area, I can assure that there is sufficient firepower onboard to invade a small country.
I can’t be more specific than that for obvious reasons!

I mostly do cable laying and trenching. So we use redundant dynamic positioning to do things very precisely on the bottom and near platforms. My last jobs were in Canada, North Sea, Iceland, UAE.

Emitting radio is very touchy, there are a lot of antennas on a ship and in the field around us.
This is an environment that way more regulated than one might think.
Also, any interference or energy level high enough to create the smallest spark would get you instafired.

[Rick Law]

Why are you a passenger on a container vessel?

You may not be aware, besides the possibility of the OP being an employee on the ship, he could be a passenger also.   It is a good way for a different style travel or for low cost travel.  Depending on local laws, not just container ships - many freighters of all sorts carry paid passengers for extra money as well.

Actually, in Michael Palin's travel shows (Around the World in 80 days, Pole to Pole, etc.), he did quite a bit of being passenger on a freighter (using facilities normally for paid passengers).   But of course while he was making a TV show, he was not exactly like a normal regular passenger.  He got picked up (or dropped off, or both - forgot which) by The US Coast Guard.  USCG doesn't take passengers for money, but Michael Palin making a show was of course special and worth the trouble for the PR value.

[Herr R aus B]

Why are you a passenger on a container vessel?

Because it is fun, you get to see a lot, have a much better accomodation, than on a cruise vessel, can always sit on the bridge, watch maneuvering, talk with the officers and dont get molested by any animators, drunk tourists or other stuff :-) if you wanna see, how that is, look here:

https://www.facebook.com/HerrRausB

that was my last trip (rotterdam, porto, setubal, dublin, liverpool, porto, setubal, lissabon, tilbury, dunkerque, rotterdam) - just returned ;-)

as specially for information on life aboard:

accomodation --> https://www.facebook.com/HerrRausB/posts/373451559809475
ship --> https://www.facebook.com/HerrRausB/posts/375619919592639
self supply --> https://www.facebook.com/HerrRausB/posts/375139049640726
board life --> https://www.facebook.com/HerrRausB/posts/375153932972571

[Herr R aus B]

Is there a limit to how much stuff you bring on board? I would bring a 30-06 to pick off Somali pirates and an ak for close range/over the side. Baffles my mind how big ships don't/can't have at least some guns on board or a way to hide them just in case. How long is the voyage from where to where? Do you work on the boat?

What would be really cool is an SDR or a SW transceiver with big spool of wire for improvised antennas. You would have a really good location: relatively elevated over a perfectly flat ground plane miles from most transmitters. VLF might even be possible depending on how much 60hz hum there is. Is the engine from the ship electrically noisy? I guess ground wouldn't be a problem as there would be metal everywhere.

Every try to coble together a DIY emergency beacon on a swaying life raft while trying not to make holes with a hot soldering iron?

to put it short - i am european and i dont like guns. got it? thanks :-)

[Herr R aus B]

I'd beware of those batteries and ancient capacitors having fun times all over your stuff.

batteries were new, caps have there own compartment, and there is not always a problem and a threat anywhere :-)

[Herr R aus B]

Good luck! :-)

Being on an Offshore ship, i am jealous of your open window and being able to do electronics in a cabin.
Here you need a permit to charge your phone...

well, the security regulations on offshore vessels and rigs might be much more paranoid - maybe even for a good reason... anyways - this was just a small container feeder (800TEU) and i had the owner's cabin, which is supposed to meet certain standards. captian and officers all russian and ukrainian - regulations? no! improvisation! ;-) at one time one big bolt / rod of four holding one of the nine cylinder head caps broke - i am talking the main engine - well, who cares, reduce to 50% and hope for the best to reach the next port :-) which worked out fine and actually there was no need for emergency protocols or whatever - just someone had to constantly wipe the oil spilling out the cylinder head :-)

[Herr R aus B]

Why are you a passenger on a container vessel?

You may not be aware, besides the possibility of the OP being an employee on the ship, he could be a passenger also.   It is a good way for a different style travel or for low cost travel.  Depending on local laws, not just container ships - many freighters of all sorts carry paid passengers for extra money as well.

Actually, in Michael Palin's travel shows (Around the World in 80 days, Pole to Pole, etc.), he did quite a bit of being passenger on a freighter (using facilities normally for paid passengers).   But of course while he was making a TV show, he was not exactly like a normal regular passenger.  He got picked up (or dropped off, or both - forgot which) by The US Coast Guard.  USCG doesn't take passengers for money, but Michael Palin making a show was of course special and worth the trouble for the PR value.

right - during my world trip in 2012 i went from new zealand through the panama channel to philly on a panamax vessel - it was just all relaxing and nice :-)

and for some ppl it is the only way to cross continents - i had a co-passenger. she was from france and severely frightened of flying. she wanted to be in australia for one year, but couldn't take the plane to get there. so she took a train from france to moscow, than took the transsib to wladiwostok, from there a ferry to seoul and then a container vessel down to australia - went back on the panamax vessel all the way to le havre - you just need a little bit more time (NZ --> USA = 3 weeks) :-)

see http://blogs.herrrausb.de/worldtrip2012/

[Circlotron]

Why are you a passenger on a container vessel?

have a much better accomodation, than on a cruise vessel,

I was thinking maybe the containers were economy class cabins 

[Herr R aus B]

Why are you a passenger on a container vessel?

have a much better accomodation, than on a cruise vessel,

I was thinking maybe the containers were economy class cabins 

yeah . the next step in the tiny house movement... :-) and btw - economy class cabins usually offer less space then a 40ft container :-)

[Beamin]

Why are you a passenger on a container vessel?

Because it is fun, you get to see a lot, have a much better accomodation, than on a cruise vessel, can always sit on the bridge, watch maneuvering, talk with the officers and dont get molested by any animators, drunk tourists or other stuff :-) if you wanna see, how that is, look here:

https://www.facebook.com/HerrRausB

that was my last trip (rotterdam, porto, setubal, dublin, liverpool, porto, setubal, lissabon, tilbury, dunkerque, rotterdam) - just returned ;-)

as specially for information on life aboard:

accomodation --> https://www.facebook.com/HerrRausB/posts/373451559809475
ship --> https://www.facebook.com/HerrRausB/posts/375619919592639
self supply --> https://www.facebook.com/HerrRausB/posts/375139049640726
board life --> https://www.facebook.com/HerrRausB/posts/375153932972571

I don't have facebook I refuse. But anyways do you have to know a guy to do this or can a normal person do this? If I wasn't tethered to my doctors office once a month to stay alive I would be on the phone setting this up right now. I don't have a job! why not! Do shit now while you can, you won't be able to at some point and that point may come early in life.

[Herr R aus B]

I don't have facebook I refuse. But anyways do you have to know a guy to do this or can a normal person do this? If I wasn't tethered to my doctors office once a month to stay alive I would be on the phone setting this up right now. I don't have a job! why not! Do shit now while you can, you won't be able to at some point and that point may come early in life.

yeah - refusing FB worked fine for me for some years ;-)

anyway - you dont have to know someone who knows someone - you just have to find an agency specialized on this... I did a brief search and found this in the U.S --> https://www.freightercruises.com/voyages.php - as for the question, if a normal person can do this - yes, sure, why not? as you are one of the rare females here, you might wanna keep in mind, that on a container vessel you usually wont find females - neither officers nor crew. female officers are simply rare to find on ships, there are some on maersk vessels, but they still are the minority. which doesn't mean, that there are no female pessengers traveling on their own. if you can cope with only men around you, that's fine. usually those are very friendly and wont molest you :-) the only limits are age and general health. here in germany you have to present a medical approval when being over 60 years old. generally, if you are handicapped in any form, you better stay off those vessels. only bigger vessels are equipped with eleveators, stairways usually are narrow and steep, and the entire environment is a heavy duty working environment with the expactable risks of injuries and accidents - be sure to ruin your clothing and catch some bruises especially in heavy weather. oh - yes - if you know, you get seasick, better leave it - no stabilizers available :-) otherwise you might also enjoy experiences like that here i filmed on one of my trips to the canaries

 https://youtu.be/PLbzDU7R-JE :-)

as for the clothing - this turned out to be cruicial - i always take one pair of clothing with me, that can be thrown away afterwards. there are all kinds of grease, smeer, oils and dirt on deck - you will never be able to get rid of any stains caused by that stuff again :-) generally i take sloppy slutty stuff for board life and one set of civilized clothing for going ashore. you will find out, that officers on cargo vessels barely wear shiny polished uniforms but instead sneakers, jogging pants and comfortable t shirts or jumpers... these ppl are just oboard for working, sometimes dont get sleep for more than 24 hours, etc. being well dressed aint the priority at all :-) and you dont need to take too much stuff with you, as all vessels have a laundry room that you can use depending on the laundry machine's schedule. bring some washing powder :-)

As life aboard is not like on a cruise ship, you might wanna read this here to get an idea, what you can expect, and what you are expected to behave --> http://www.transitionsabroad.com/listings/travel/articles/travel-by-cargo-ship-around-the-world.shtml

you might wanna search the internet to find a travelling agency suiting your needs - just look for cargo ship travel or something... the ship companies themselves rarely deal with passengers directly, as they are logistics companies and dont have the time and ressources to handle the passenger related stuff - thats why they source that out to specialized agencies. the only company directly handling passengers i know off is hamburg süd - but as the name implies, they are based in hamburg / germany and i dont know whether they also deal with passengers from other countries... have a look --> http://www.hamburgsued-frachtschiffreisen.de/en/freightertravel/index.jsp

and as you refusing FB - i have some of the other container vessel trips here on my blog pages - gives you an idea, how life aboard looks like and what you can experience when going ashore...

going from northern europe down to the canaries and northern africa: http://blogs.herrrausb.de/fotoblog/?page_id=5850

xmas and new year between hamburg and the baltic sea on my favourite ship: http://blogs.herrrausb.de/fotoblog/?page_id=4152

going into the ice / frozen baltic sea: http://blogs.herrrausb.de/fotoblog/?page_id=1481

going from new zealand through panama channel to philly on a larger vessel: http://blogs.herrrausb.de/worldtrip2012/?page_id=1050

if you have more questions for hints feel free to contact me via PN - unless this is interesting to more ppl and wouldn't be regarded being too much off topic eletronics-wise ;-)

regards

axel

[Beamin]

In the video the waves were 10 feet high or 10 meters? Do they use feet and knots at sea?

[Herr R aus B]

In the video the waves were 10 feet high or 10 meters? Do they use feet and knots at sea?

the waves were 10-12 meters - the measurements and units at sea are as strange as the imperial ones - even though they are a little bit more on the logical side :-) distances are measured in nautical miles (1nm ~ 1,8km whereas 1ml ~ 1,6km), speed is measured in knots, where 1kn = 1nm/h. 1nm equals 10 cables or 1000 fathoms, where 1 fathom once was derived from twice the arm length of an ordinary seman. fathoms are merely used for measuring the depth under the ship, less for distances.

:-)

[schmitt trigger]

There is a Spanish saying:

Quieres conocer el mundo sin dinero? Marinero!

You want to know the world without money? Sailor!

[gildasd]

On advanced vessels, we still use Kn and Nmiles, but in reality, everything is done in metric...
I can’t imagine doing a survey in feet, doing the dynamic positioning in kn and Nmiles, laying the cable in feet and thus terrestrial miles per day, while doing fuel burn estimations in long tons, cubic feet, cubic milli-inches, fraction of pints, Fahrenheit, PSi and BTU’s!

SI all day, every day!

I mean, imperial is doable, but it’s allready easy to err in metric... imperial would be a pain, especially the fuel reports.
And mistakes are not counted in farthings or half-guineas when topping up a couple of tanks is 230 000$.

(Disclaimer, I do wood work in Imperial, and find in better than metric in that use, I am not a worshiper of either system.)

[ivaylo]

One nautical mile is one minute of latitude. So it will be a while before we go metric here. Don’t get me wrong, a fan of metric here, but this is what you need for fast navigation calculations, speed of boats and aircraft are in knots, etc...

[Ian.M]

As Ivaylo just pointed out, the maths for navigation just works better and is quicker in knots and Nautical miles, and also the charts coordinates are in degrees and minutes (and decimal minutes) of latitude and longitude, so converting to/from S.I. speeds and distances would be an extra step with accompanying risk of $EXPEN$IVE$ error, so Knots and Nautical Miles will be the preferred units as long as paper charts are still produced for commercial use.

Usage of fathoms is just about totally obsolete except in US waters, where you are more or less forced to use them as NOAA's metrification program is basically stalled so charted depths are in fathoms and feet and heights and vertical clearances in feet, except for a very few areas primarily in the Great Lakes where metric charts have been issued.

[Herr R aus B]

One nautical mile is one minute of latitude. So it will be a while before we go metric here. Don’t get me wrong, a fan of metric here, but this is what you need for fast navigation calculations, speed of boats and aircraft are in knots, etc...

i didnt't want to start another war on metric vs. something :-) as i said, the nautic measurements are more on the logical side, as they really all swirl around that 1.852... :-) as for imperial... well... :-) i still listen to my old vinyl records from time to time... ;-)

[gildasd]

In navigation, yes, but nobody in their right mind does that by hand now. Log book in Kn because that’s the rule

In dynamic positioning (moving slow and highly precise), it’s all metric Meters per minute and so on.

In the bowels of hell (machinery space) where I spend all my days chilling out, apart from compressed air fittings... I think it’s all metric.

That said, I use imperial in furniture as it far easier to balance shapes and work in fractions to do that.
It is probably is due to the base 12 or something.

And I find it normal to be able to work in both.

[Herr R aus B]

I guess, it's just comfortable what you are used to :-) I would be all confused with inches, feet, 16th of an inch and bla... :-) and didnt that one mars probe crash because of the imperial system? ;-)

Never ending discussion :-)

And - before studying at the university i was working in plumbing - funny mixture... steel pipes, fittings and their threads all in imperial, copper stuff all metric... makes nice brass adapters from imperial stuff to metric stuff :-) and my bike? everything metric except the f*** shimano hubs... imperial nuts... almost not to distinguish from metric ones and then of course all wrenches slip... yes - of all ppl the japanese also got stuck with the ancient system :-)

and now for the discussion of pi vs. tau :-)

[apis]

It's about standardisation. There are big benefits if everyone use the same system of units. (Currently it's only Liberia, Burma and the USA who are not using SI.) The longer one waits to transition the more it's going to cost and the longer before everyone can benefit from having the same system of units. Why north americans prefer the old imperial/colonial system to the modern metric has always been a mystery to me. (There is nothing that prevents anyone from using fractions in the metric system, so that is a moot point.)

[gildasd]

As for fractions in furniture.
If I want something hand size, solid for normal use and elegant, 1 1/4inch x 1/2 inch. And that is a fraction of standard stock take smoothing and cutting (ie minimal wastage).
So yeah, I can do it mm (I would if in metal...) but if I actually have to work conveniently and fast, not so good,

But yeah, horses for courses.

[ivaylo]

SI all day, every day!

Except where more convenient for the mind units exist:
 - I’d rather tell you how old I am in years than in seconds (some of these years were different lengths too)
 - for some reason the size of the milky way sits better in my brain as 100K light years than in however many AU (or another non SI unit astronomers use is parsec)
 - degrees for everyday measurements, radians only for calculations with frequencies and such
 - etc, etc, same with the spherical measures we use for navigation on earth
Again, grew up with and love metric, there should be standards, SI is the best, but I would retain a little bit of humanity.

[apis]

If I want something hand size, solid for normal use and elegant, 1 1/4inch x 1/2 inch.

I'm probably missing the point here but you can do fractions with metric as well:
1 1/4 inch x 1/2 inch = 3 7/40 cm x 1 27/100 cm, the numbers are not as nice and round because we had to convert from inches, but you could easily have for example 3 1/8 cm x 1 1/4 cm (or 1/3 dm x 1/8 dm)?

[gildasd]

If I want something hand size, solid for normal use and elegant, 1 1/4inch x 1/2 inch.

I'm probably missing the point here but you can do fractions with metric as well:
1 1/4 inch x 1/2 inch = 3 7/40 cm x 1 27/100 cm, the numbers are not as nice and round because we had to convert from inches, but you could easily have for example 3 1/8 cm x 1 1/4 cm (or 1/3 dm x 1/8 dm)?

Yes and no.
Yes in theory, but no in practice as in practice, there is no 1/4cm mark in readily available measuring tools (speed squares, tapes, laser, depth gages etc) and in wood work you work to a line, not down to a measurement (in most cases)... you dont do parts that are 16,891mm (as with metal) but 1’1/64 to the knife mark, then if you need to adjust, you plane it down micron by micron until the fit is tight.
And the plans are done in fractions, with no rounding.
Except in cabinets... as the appliances are made to fit in 30, 60, 90 or 120cm units!
It might not make sense in a conversation, but in practice chopping miter joints or slabbing lumber, it does.
 
Anyway, got back on the vessels today, in dry dock somewhere south of Istanbul.
I allready stink of diesel as a duplex filter was more dirty than expected, and the compressed air blew the leftover fuel up instead of through the filter.

[schmitt trigger]

Speaking of Metric vs Imperial usage in the US:

While almost everything is sold in Imperial units, have you noticed that drugs are almost always traded in Metric? 

[Seph.b]

- degrees for everyday measurements, radians only for calculations with frequencies and such

I use both imperial and SI units in the same project without any problems. Each have their own use cases. Both make sense.

Degrees seem like the most arbitrary unit ever though, base 360 really!? Radians are so logical and easy to use. 1pi is a straight line, 1/2pi or 3/2pi is square, anything in between is easy to recognize in both faction and decimal form. I normally use degrees if I have to work with others, but my brain just works in radians by default.  I guess degrees make since on a clock, global positioning or astronomy, but that is about it.

[Eka]

It's about standardisation. There are big benefits if everyone use the same system of units. (Currently it's only Liberia, Burma and the USA who are not using SI.) The longer one waits to transition the more it's going to cost and the longer before everyone can benefit from having the same system of units.

A high percentage of US auto and farm manufacturing is now metric so they can also sell to the world markets.

Why north americans prefer the old imperial/colonial system to the modern metric has always been a mystery to me.

Plain and simple. Canada switched to metric a year or so before the US was planning on, and the cries of how hard it was caused congress to scuttle the plans to go metric. Really &^$%*(& sucks!!!!

[ivaylo]

- degrees for everyday measurements, radians only for calculations with frequencies and such

...
Degrees seem like the most arbitrary unit ever though, base 360 really!?...

Look at the number of divisors of 90 - https://www.dcode.fr/divisors-list-number
The Babylonians used a base-60 counting system, same reason.

[apis]

Degrees seem like the most arbitrary unit ever though, base 360 really!? Radians are so logical and easy to use.

Radians has its mathematical advantages but I always felt a cycle (turn) was the most natural unit for angles (i.e. 400 gon = 360 deg = 2pi rad = 1tau rad = 1 cycle).

[Herr R aus B]

This is all off off off topic now :-)

[ebastler]

This is all off off off topic now :-)

Yes indeed... I think the connection to your original topic is that while at sea, you have a lot of time to let your thoughts roam. 

[Herr R aus B]

This is all off off off topic now :-)

Yes indeed... I think the connection to your original topic is that while at sea, you have a lot of time to let your thoughts roam. 

that would imply, everybody involved in this thread were at sea ;-) i personally am back ashore since 2 weeks - unfortunately :-)

[towlerg]

I know it's off topic but I'd like to resond to the SI mafia.

In terms of seamanship the metric system is terrible. The natural measure of speed is the knots ie 1 nm/hour. You use calipers to get 1 nm from the vertical axis of the chart, it's just so easy. Everything related to speed follow from that. Don't even go there with windspeed in mtrs/second or whatever the metric drones at the met office use, it's just plain daft, nothing in the real world gives a sense of that number. What the hell do they measure tidal flow in?

As for depth, 2 meters is 1 fathom so who cares.

BTW The Mars climate orbiter didn't crash because of the imperial system but beacause one team used metric and the other used imperial and the conversion was not accurate enough.

On the subject of inaccuracy did they stuff up the measurment of the planet that the meter is based on? I see that now the meter is defined as the length of the path travelled by light in a vacuum in 1299 792 458 second (doff cap to goggle), what an oddly un-si number.

[schmitt trigger]

SI mafia....

Before you accuse me of anything, I live in the US and I use feet, inches, gallons, miles and degrees Fahrenheit every single day of my life.
And as others have mentioned, for woodwork, Imperial makes sense. Same with seamanship, employ Imperial if that makes the life easier..

However, at work and for any engineering assignment I use metric.

Your assessment of the Mars Orbiter clearly indicates the reason that for engineering and scientific research, all the units should be Metric.
Regardless of what Trump says, in this global interconnected world, the USA requires to collaborate with many other nations, METRIC nations.

The USA cannot force the 99%of the world to employ units which only make scientific calculations far more difficult.

[Ian.M]

As for depth, 2 meters is 1 fathom so who cares.

That's nowhere near good enough for anything except deciding how much chain to payout when anchoring.   Assuming a vessel that's crew customarily work in metric units, they'll have about 8.5% less actual depth than they expect.  If you are operating in shallow channels, that 8.5% can be critical e.g. if Squat effect is involved.   

A far safer quick conversion from fathoms to meters is to subtract 10% after the conversion above, so multiply by two then subtract  a tenth of the result.   The 1.6% error in the result is in the safe direction i.e. more water than you think you've got under you.

Similarly, going the other way from meters to fathoms, dividing by two then adding a tenth only overestimates the depth by less than 0.6% - far less than the safety margin one needs due to various other factors.

[ivaylo]

This is all off off off topic now :-)

Not really. Some of us own boats, live on boats, etc. Thanks for starting this thread. It exposed how much many of us engineers focus on their own little area and underestimate problems solved in different but not that fat disciplines.

[Herr R aus B]

BTW The Mars climate orbiter didn't crash because of the imperial system but beacause one team used metric and the other used imperial and the conversion was not accurate enough.

That's what I meant :-) You are really taking the stuff seriously, hm? :-) But then:

As for depth, 2 meters is 1 fathom so who cares.

It is 1,852m and if you took 10fm, the difference would add up to almost 1,5m which might be crucial in some situations - so if you take the stuff so seriously, do it consequently :-)

I never thought, talking a small travel electronics assortment would end up in yet antoher of these never ending, fundamentalistic - say religious? - discussions... MAFIA??? Can I close my own thread??? :-)

[Herr R aus B]

Regardless of what Trump says, in this global interconnected world, the USA requires to collaborate with many other nations, METRIC nations.

Did he announce the U.S. leaving scientific standards now as well? Did I miss something? :-)

[rdl]

...
I never thought, talking a small travel electronics assortment would end up in yet antoher of these never ending, fundamentalistic - say religious? - discussions... MAFIA??? Can I close my own thread??? :-)

No need for concern, it's not unusual here for a thread to end up as Linux vs Microsoft, Imperial vs Metric, Apple vs Everything Else, and so on. Must be a corollary to Godwin's Law or something.

[towlerg]

That's nowhere near good enough for anything except deciding how much chain to payout when anchoring.

You either operate in a lake or run aground alot. By the time you add tides, weather conditions and local odities I'm be amazed if I could predict depth tp within 10%.


My point, is that it's stupid to shoehorn SI into an application where it is inferior, just because of "SI is best" dogma. Like all people I buy stuff in liters and kilograms and I don't have any problem with that although perhaps the most importat change we made was decimaliation.

[ebastler]

Regardless of what Trump says, in this global interconnected world, the USA requires to collaborate with many other nations, METRIC nations.

Did he announce the U.S. leaving scientific standards now as well? Did I miss something? :-)

How about an import tariff on all products using metric dimensions? 

[Ian.M]

That's nowhere near good enough for anything except deciding how much chain to payout when anchoring.

You either operate in a lake or run aground alot. By the time you add tides, weather conditions and local odities I'm be amazed if I could predict depth tp within 10%.

On the contrary, depths can be predicted to within a couple of decimeters for the current tidal cycle, correcting for meteorological effects by comparing the calculated tide against the actual tide at nearby tide gauges.

Its not unusual for very large vessels passing through restricted dredged channels (e.g in the Solent and entrance to Southampton water where the channel has a maintained depth of 12.6m - approx 6.9 fathoms) to operate with only a few meters clearance,  waiting in a designated anchorage or holding area in the approaches until the combination of the port authorities current tide gauge reading, and the predicted rise of tide during the expected time to reach the start of the maintained depth channel allows sufficient depth under the keel.  Their maximum speed through the channel is tightly constrained by the clearance and the squat effect.  When you are working with clearances of a few meters, loosing a meter of that clearance due to bad maths in a units conversion is potentially disastrous, as if the vessel enters the channel with too much speed for the clearance, handling will be severely compromised, and if as a result the vessel looses control, a grounding at speed is highly likely.

Of course its very different for recreational small craft - very few have a draft exceeding 3m, so in most circumstances, depth is of little concern unless inshore of the 5m contour, and if in less than 5m, the inaccuracies due to meteorological effects, without actual tide heights from port control, can easily exceed 10% of that.

[Herr R aus B]

...
I never thought, talking a small travel electronics assortment would end up in yet antoher of these never ending, fundamentalistic - say religious? - discussions... MAFIA??? Can I close my own thread??? :-)

No need for concern, it's not unusual here for a thread to end up as Linux vs Microsoft, Imperial vs Metric, Apple vs Everything Else, and so on. Must be a corollary to Godwin's Law or something.

I know, I know - I couldn't be less concerned 

Btw... I started my coding carreer mainly in OS/2 - back in the day, when IBM said to the world: World, we enlighten you with the first true 32bit preemptive real multitask operating system, where we unfortunately don't have any suitable software for, hence we included a full windows 3.1 emulation... Well - guess what... I loved OS/2, because from a coder's perspective it was all perfectly incorporating benefits of Windows and Unix-like operating systems... And in the end it was free, coz Big Blue back then really was supporting the beginning open source movement... well... back then... :-) And the fanboy thing was not less intense than today. And when we started doing cross platform development, we kinda were homeless ;-)

[Herr R aus B]

Regardless of what Trump says, in this global interconnected world, the USA requires to collaborate with many other nations, METRIC nations.

Did he announce the U.S. leaving scientific standards now as well? Did I miss something? :-)

How about an import tariff on all products using metric dimensions? 

Don't feed the Trump! :-)

[apis]

...
I never thought, talking a small travel electronics assortment would end up in yet antoher of these never ending, fundamentalistic - say religious? - discussions... MAFIA??? Can I close my own thread??? :-)

No need for concern, it's not unusual here for a thread to end up as Linux vs Microsoft, Imperial vs Metric, Apple vs Everything Else, and so on. Must be a corollary to Godwin's Law or something.

That's not even remotely comparable. There are good arguments for using both linux and windos, as well as apple or something else. There is no good reason to stick with imperial though, it's just arrogant bullheadedness that causes inconvenience and extra cost for everyone in the world. As for nautical miles, if you think of it as an alias for arc minutes it makes sense to stick with nmi and knots when navigating perhaps. Fathoms and feet, not so much.

Whose feet and fathoms are that? Probably this guys

Yeah, that makes so much sense 2018.
.
.
.
Maybe it's time for Trump to redefine the foot to match his own.

[Eka]

How about an import tariff on all products using metric dimensions? 

Tariffs should be based on the cost differences between labor rates, workers benefits, and meeting environmental regulations.

[Beamin]

We just need to drain the ocean so it is a round lot metric number. Or not drain but raise the sea level which we are doing a pretty good job at.

30 foot waves would scare the hell out of me. If the seas are constantly high how do people sleep? That could be a problem with sleep deprivation and dangerous mistakes.

[ebastler]

Tariffs should be based on the cost differences between labor rates, workers benefits, and meeting environmental regulations.

Right -- which is why tariffs on European cars are such an obvious idea. As everyone knows, those car manufacturers have built their business on cheap labor, lack of social benefits, and lax environmental regulations in Europe.

[Herr R aus B]

We just need to drain the ocean so it is a round lot metric number. Or not drain but raise the sea level which we are doing a pretty good job at.

First you just wanted to drain the swamp... now an entire ocean??? It's gettin' bizzarre... 

( )

[Herr R aus B]

------------- 8< -------------

Whose feet and fathoms are that? Probably this guys

------------- 8< -------------

Maybe it's time for Trump to redefine the foot to match his own.

Nice coincidence, that i just bumped into that one on YT...



 

[apis]

Nice coincidence, that i just bumped into that one on YT...

Ahh, 16 men of course, couldn't have them pesky women mess up the measurement. 

[Herr R aus B]

Nice coincidence, that i just bumped into that one on YT...

Ahh, 16 men of course, couldn't have them pesky women mess up the measurement. 

due to trigonometrie pumps and heels might shorten the foot length artificially and ruin the measurement :-)

[gildasd]

We are having a mid Agean Sea barbecue, the pig on the spit measured very tasty.

[Herr R aus B]

We are having a mid Agean Sea barbecue, the pig on the spit measured very tasty.

philipino seamen, i guess? very enjoyable :-)

[gildasd]

We are having a mid Agean Sea barbecue, the pig on the spit measured very tasty.

philipino seamen, i guess? very enjoyable :-)

Benelux boat, we know how to live - and have a stellar safety record despite moving cooler boxes of, erm, beverage by crane to the party deck on special occasions.

Would make your English H&S rubber stamper loose his alignment. But we don’t care, we do safety better with 1 or 2 forms than they do with 4 or 5.

[Herr R aus B]

We are having a mid Agean Sea barbecue, the pig on the spit measured very tasty.

philipino seamen, i guess? very enjoyable :-)

Benelux boat, we know how to live - and have a stellar safety record despite moving cooler boxes of, erm, beverage by crane to the party deck on special occasions.

Would make your English H&S rubber stamper loose his alignment. But we don’t care, we do safety better with 1 or 2 forms than they do with 4 or 5.

whatever an english rubber stamper might be... they had some BBQ as well - but you know... russians and ukrainians... different kinda ppl, don't talk much ;-) The philipinos tho always have been very funny :-) the best lifestyle i met on an OPDR vessel under spanish flag... great ppl, great food, all spanish or latin american crew - but those times now are long gone...OPDR was lately merged with MacAndrews and in the end everything belongs to CMA CGM now, sailing under some obscure flag - the usual thing... i guess in 10-20 years everything is Maersk, CMA/CGM, China Shipping and maybe MSC and all ships will sail under Monrovia flag or whatever small state which landmass could be covered multiple times by all the vessels registered there... maybe one chinese captain and one chinese chief aboard, otherwise everything completely automated... sucks...

[Beamin]

Tariffs should be based on the cost differences between labor rates, workers benefits, and meeting environmental regulations.

Right -- which is why tariffs on European cars are such an obvious idea. As everyone knows, those car manufacturers have built their business on cheap labor, lack of social benefits, and lax environmental regulations in Europe.

In Europe? These tariffs from the orange clown are going to costs jobs all around the world worst hit will be our own jobs. But it's OK we can get jobs as coal miners since he thinks we need people to wash the coal, after all that's how you make "clean coal". Last time I checked being a coal miner was the worst job ever, where you were likely to die at worst, or die a horrible death from coal miners lung at best. It scares me to think what other terrible premodern jobs will he bring back.

[gildasd]

We are having a mid Agean Sea barbecue, the pig on the spit measured very tasty.

philipino seamen, i guess? very enjoyable :-)

Benelux boat, we know how to live - and have a stellar safety record despite moving cooler boxes of, erm, beverage by crane to the party deck on special occasions.

Would make your English H&S rubber stamper loose his alignment. But we don’t care, we do safety better with 1 or 2 forms than they do with 4 or 5.

whatever an english rubber stamper might be... they had some BBQ as well - but you know... russians and ukrainians... different kinda ppl, don't talk much ;-) The philipinos tho always have been very funny :-) the best lifestyle i met on an OPDR vessel under spanish flag... great ppl, great food, all spanish or latin american crew - but those times now are long gone...OPDR was lately merged with MacAndrews and in the end everything belongs to CMA CGM now, sailing under some obscure flag - the usual thing... i guess in 10-20 years everything is Maersk, CMA/CGM, China Shipping and maybe MSC and all ships will sail under Monrovia flag or whatever small state which landmass could be covered multiple times by all the vessels registered there... maybe one chinese captain and one chinese chief aboard, otherwise everything completely automated... sucks...

I think that is a long way off...
Even things that can´t break, like a rock solid, built for 25 years automatic 3 way valve, sometimes go bananas... Then is automatised using EWS (engineer with a spanner).
If there is not a somewhat competent crew that finds a solution, a ship dead in the water will occur in short order with such a failure,

It's crazy the stuff that breaks at sea, stuff built like a tank, that would outlast a ship twice over on land is dead at sea after just a few years...

[Herr R aus B]

whatever an english rubber stamper might be... they had some BBQ as well - but you know... russians and ukrainians... different kinda ppl, don't talk much ;-) The philipinos tho always have been very funny :-) the best lifestyle i met on an OPDR vessel under spanish flag... great ppl, great food, all spanish or latin american crew - but those times now are long gone...OPDR was lately merged with MacAndrews and in the end everything belongs to CMA CGM now, sailing under some obscure flag - the usual thing... i guess in 10-20 years everything is Maersk, CMA/CGM, China Shipping and maybe MSC and all ships will sail under Monrovia flag or whatever small state which landmass could be covered multiple times by all the vessels registered there... maybe one chinese captain and one chinese chief aboard, otherwise everything completely automated... sucks...

I think that is a long way off...
Even things that can´t break, like a rock solid, built for 25 years automatic 3 way valve, sometimes go bananas... Then is automatised using EWS (engineer with a spanner).
If there is not a somewhat competent crew that finds a solution, a ship dead in the water will occur in short order with such a failure,

It's crazy the stuff that breaks at sea, stuff built like a tank, that would outlast a ship twice over on land is dead at sea after just a few years...

well - on the last trip where this thread originally started one of four bolts holding the cylinder head in place broke in the middle of the biscaya - nice... engine reduced to 50% otherwise oil leaked out - anyway... under sharp survaillance we got to porto ;-)

of course you are right. but this is like truck driving - just a little bit more boxes and a little bit larger... the priciples of time pressure and saving everywhere is the same.... and with some officers i met i doubt their competence... way too young and according to the - in that case german captains - neither very experienced nor well educated. but obviously they have to take what marlow sends them :-)

and what now is a rubber stamper? :-)

[gildasd]

A rubber stamper is the person in a office telling you how to be safe, how to do your job, by signing and rubber stamping papers...
No actual safety is done, but lots of paperwork is stamped.

Them having ever been on a vessel, or knowing which side of a hammer is for flattening fingers, is irrelevant.
As long as the permit procedure is as long, tedious and not relevant, as possible... They are happy.

Companies from the UK are notorious for paperwork over real safety, hence rubber stamping and the need to hire a rubber stamper stamp rubber.

[edy]

Speaking of units of measurement, meters, miles, knots, etc... Why did anybody ever tell me that lumber measurements (2"x4", 2"x6", 4"x4", etc) where not the actual size of the final piece of wood you were getting?   

[Herr R aus B]

A rubber stamper is the person in a office telling you how to be safe, how to do your job, by signing and rubber stamping papers...
No actual safety is done, but lots of paperwork is stamped.

Them having ever been on a vessel, or knowing which side of a hammer is for flattening fingers, is irrelevant.
As long as the permit procedure is as long, tedious and not relevant, as possible... They are happy.

Companies from the UK are notorious for paperwork over real safety, hence rubber stamping and the need to hire a rubber stamper stamp rubber.

Ah - OK... That would translate to a "pea counter" or "desk offender" in german :-)

EDIT: Just found out, that a "pea counter" would be a "bean counter" in proper english - well then, everything is about counting legumes, it seems :-)

[Delta]

Speaking of units of measurement, meters, miles, knots, etc... Why did anybody ever tell me that lumber measurements (2"x4", 2"x6", 4"x4", etc) where not the actual size of the final piece of wood you were getting?   

That is the rough sawn size before it is planed.

[t1d]

In the past, I have downloaded open source laptop GPS programs and nautical charts, all free, via the USA government NOAA website. Add a small, cheap GPS antenna dongle and you can do amazing things. You might enjoy having such. Many other GPS programs are available for free, on the internet... Automobile navigation, aircraft navigation, etc...

http://www.charts.noaa.gov/ChartCatalog/MapSelect.html