Author Topic: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.  (Read 4837 times)

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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #75 on: September 20, 2018, 12:39:38 pm »
Nor will US subscribers accept reduced replies just because the EU doesn't like them.  So it really comes down to separate providers and the EU would really like to create their own Google/Facebook.

Reply #6 of this thread mentions that the Los Angeles Times won't accept connections from the EU.  Not for this latest copyright issue but from the new privacy laws.  As more and more US companies learn about these laws the number of blocking sites will surely increase.

The Internet will soon be fragmented - an island here, an island there, no way to do business between them.  That's fine, I don't buy a lot out of the EU anyway.  Sometimes things from the UK though...
Not many EU residents will be interested in the Los Angeles Times and it has therefore little to lose by blocking access. In short, nobody really cares. If EU residents actually visit a site in relevant numbers it starts losing out when those are blocked. Facebook and Google simply can't afford to do this. Of course, it's trivial to still access whatever website you please even with geoblocking enabled.

There are also reports that the GPDR has actually improved the performance and loading times of many websites in the EU, US and elsewhere when accessed from the EU due to numerous tracking facilities being disabled. This can be a difference of many seconds and multiple MBs.
 

Online coppice

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2018, 03:46:19 am »
Reply #6 of this thread mentions that the Los Angeles Times won't accept connections from the EU.  Not for this latest copyright issue but from the new privacy laws.  As more and more US companies learn about these laws the number of blocking sites will surely increase.
Many US media companies have blocked access from outside the US for years, as it generates little advertising revenue for them. The setups are often quite odd. CBS, for example, has gone through periods of blocking access and periods of allowing it. However, when they block access and you use one of the numerous partial VPN tools to bypass the blocking, you are fed ads relevant to your own location. It seems that at some level they are properly set up to get ad revenue wherever you are. Of course, there are issues of geographic control beyond just ad revenue. Many TV shows, and often things like comic strips in newspapers, are only licenced by the media company for distribution in certain markets.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 03:53:29 am by coppice »
 

Online rstofer

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #77 on: September 21, 2018, 07:48:44 am »
Not many EU residents will be interested in the Los Angeles Times and it has therefore little to lose by blocking access. In short, nobody really cares. If EU residents actually visit a site in relevant numbers it starts losing out when those are blocked. Facebook and Google simply can't afford to do this. Of course, it's trivial to still access whatever website you please even with geoblocking enabled.

They may not be interested in the LA Times but I read BBC.com and express.co.uk every day.  In fact the Daily Express is my favorite source for BREXIT related tidbits. Sure, they sensationalize the headlines but they have more video quotes than any other source I have seen.  The DE doesn't seem to have advertising (or my ad blocker kills it) and I don't need to 'join'.


Every day...
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #78 on: September 21, 2018, 01:28:55 pm »
Quote
will soon be fragmented - an island here, an island there, no way to do business between them.

you could ( can and always will be able to )  "do business" as long as you know who to call, pay for shipping and "help out" so your stuff doesn't sit at customs too long.
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Online cdev

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #79 on: September 21, 2018, 02:20:35 pm »
The european privacy law is actually a very positive thing, because its safety net in particular is in major conflict with the data collection agenda, in such a way that the two cant find a safe middle ground. But the money involved is astronomical - more than half a million dollars per person (using old figures too) in profits in one service sector, health insurance, alone, if they go commercial so its going to be hard to resist caving in. What they want is information, so they can decide who to insure and who to 'underwrite' i.e. exclude.

EU has had its safety net for a long time and much of the information which has been collected is about things which might impact people's ability to buy health insurance in the future, once its collected. Thats how health insurance works. Its really only supposed to be extended to healthy people, before they get sick. So preventing the collection of that data now is the only way to avoid it being used to do things like exclude people with common conditions from health insurance underwriting in the future. Although its been a nightmare here, resulting in millions of people not being able to afford insurance and in many cases being bankrupted, its not new. Europeans aren't remotely prepared for the 'pure' strains of capitalism that are being locked in by international agreements. Allowing wholesale data collection about them will increase profits for sure but it could backfire on the major corporations. So although they likely will grumble they will put up with it at least for now.

Much of this data collection and manipulation is actually all about electronics, FPGAs to be specific. "Multilayer Perceptrons" , "Convolutional Neural Networks" and "Recurrent Neural networks" - they will be leading the top firms to profitability, allowing them to be lean and mean. These hardware and software devices will be their bread and butter.. so to speak.

The workers of the future will be deep neural networks inside of electronics.

Different countries want to maximize their profit making opportunities off of those robots and the applications they run.

One fast, cheap, error-prone FPGA board may replace thousands of slow expensive error prone workers.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:59:47 am by cdev »
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Offline R005T3r

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #80 on: September 21, 2018, 10:22:49 pm »
I don't really think that robots will replace humans in factories, I think it's more like a cooperation between machines and humans rather than a fully automated factory made of robots, but to implement that kind of system will take 50 years or so... Mostly Because it's true that technology change quite rapidly, but not many factories want to make an investment on that sense.

Moreover, in automation if you want to change something, things can be quite challenging. Not to mention you need someone reprogramming the software.

Robots are made to make the hard work, but their comprehension about "how the work is done" is rather limited, thus, in order to weld or other peculiar work, you need a good welder, period.
And this does apply to a lot of other works in a production environment in both heavy and light industry.

In my modest opinion the production world is heading in one direction : 0 waste.


 

Online cdev

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #81 on: October 19, 2018, 11:51:42 am »
'robots' replacing humans isn't a maybe proposition, its happening everywhere on a large scale. People are too smart and too expensive to have them do 99% of what is done in factories. The emergence of deep learning and associated technologies has the potential to soon eliminate the expensive programming staff and make teaching 'robots' as easy as doing the thing yourself a few times, poof, they will have learned how to do it.

Humans aren't kept around for sentimental reasons, they have been utilized solely because until recently they were the only and then the cheapest way to do things. But those days are almost over. It is happening very quickly.

I don't really think that robots will replace humans in factories, I think it's more like a cooperation between machines and humans rather than a fully automated factory made of robots, but to implement that kind of system will take 50 years or so... Mostly Because it's true that technology change quite rapidly, but not many factories want to make an investment on that sense.

Moreover, in automation if you want to change something, things can be quite challenging. Not to mention you need someone reprogramming the software.

Robots are made to make the hard work, but their comprehension about "how the work is done" is rather limited, thus, in order to weld or other peculiar work, you need a good welder, period.
And this does apply to a lot of other works in a production environment in both heavy and light industry.

In my modest opinion the production world is heading in one direction : 0 waste.

I can see why people really want to believe this. But its not true. Automation is oftentimes much better at jobs than humans because of our large brains. We let our minds drift away and get off track (like I am doing right now)
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online cdev

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #82 on: October 19, 2018, 12:26:46 pm »
Because people cost more than electricity, this is a battle people have already lost. Billions of jobs will likely go away. So governments are all doing different things. Some are rising to the challenge in one way, others in others.

People are largely unaware this shift is imminent, but for many its going to be an unsolvable situation.

Are governments trying to figure out how to reduce the numbers of people who they feel compelled to help? Maybe.

Onerous new laws are one way. Turning people into criminals is a way to disenfranchise large numbers of them.

I mean,
There was a petition not so long ago, and a lot of pepole signed for it. They didn't even care about and this MADNESS has passed... And by the end of 2019 will be implemented in the whole EU!

https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/12/17849868/eu-internet-copyright-reform-article-11-13-approved

Now, as it has been written, wikipedia will disappear, the whole youtube world is at stake, online product reviews will be destroyed: you make a bad review of my product, yes? Then is copyright violation, and your review will be taken down. No possibilty to appeal. Soon you cannot even load a product image on ebay... It's just insane. They want google news to be a paid service (and then, all newspaper websites will dissapear from google).

Who evaluate the fair use? Not to mention the "upload filter" section: how do you EVEN implement such a thing? :palm:

As it has been written, you cannot even make a video with a coke in your hands, or you can be fined because of copyright violation. You cannot even post an image of a product of make a selfie if the image contains an advertisment banner.
And, you know what really is pissing me off: piracy will not be even touched about this directive, so illegal file sharing will go underground and that is all, boosted by this madness.  Not to mention that this would be a great impulse to the Tor project....

Soon we will have google.onion...  :scared:

Dark times ahead....
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 11:03:57 am by cdev »
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #83 on: October 19, 2018, 01:21:28 pm »
'robots' replacing humans isn't a maybe proposition, its happening everywhere on a large scale. People are too smart and too expensive to have them do 99% of what is done in factories. The emergence of deep learning and associated technologies has the potential to soon eliminate the expensive programming staff and make teaching 'robots' as easy as doing the thing yourself a few times, poof, they will have learned how to do it.

Humans aren't kept around for sentimental reasons, they have been utilized solely because until recently they were the only and then the cheapest way to do things. But those days are almost over. It is happening very quickly.

Yes, the very fact that we still use humans as workers in many areas (even though automation is progressing fast) is because it's actually much easier to teach people to act like robots than it is to teach robots to act like humans.

Obviously, once this either becomes false as AI progresses, or the need to have workers with human traits disappears (both scenarios having an equal probability at this point IMO and are not quite mutually exclusive), there will be no reason left to make humans work. No reason except to enslave them so they don't rebel, that is. So it's entirely possible that all human jobs will become bullshit jobs (yes there's already a significant proportion of those) with no actual value other than to keep people busy.
 

Online coppice

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #84 on: October 19, 2018, 07:36:28 pm »
Yes, the very fact that we still use humans as workers in many areas (even though automation is progressing fast) is because it's actually much easier to teach people to act like robots than it is to teach robots to act like humans.
Its often just an investment hurdle - i.e. avoiding a large up front investment in equipment - which keeps many people employed. In most cases, if companies are under pressure to move work to another location where labour rates are higher, that will be the prompt which makes them invest in eliminating most of the labour requirement entirely. - i.e. the work will move, but the jobs will disappear.
 

Online cdev

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #85 on: October 20, 2018, 10:32:59 am »
They are under pressure to move manufacturing and services to wherever they are cheaper. (or move the cheap workers to the work site, and let them work for what they were paid before)

An additional issue is basically one that says that these jobs are more important for economic integration of the developing world than they are for their current holders, who just coincidentally are paid more.

Another argument they use is the "comparative advantage" one. Some countries have large numbers of workers who are well educated and willing to work for very little. (instead of needing to make a 'living wage' which is more than it would be elsewhere.)

There are many "externalities" as well.

But make no bones about it, decent jobs are under systematic attack.

The scary thing is that contrary to common sense, all the indigenous (current workers, who are alleged to be 'overpaid')  are naively assumed to be able to find other work- but thats very unlikely to happen if this is happening on a mass scale. Instead it will cause an economic disaster. A crash.

And as said earlier, the number of jobs which do show up in the other place may be very small. All this churning that the politicos and economists are so excited about may end up being seen in retrospect as one of the biggest economic mistakes ever.


So, changes could be problematic and disappointing all around.

Plus, if employment has all the remuneration sucked out of it - and their replacement workers are so few and/or make so little, who will buy their products?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 11:31:36 am by cdev »
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Offline bitman

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #86 on: October 21, 2018, 01:32:51 am »
Nobody was ever forced to use Internet Explorer, they could just use it once to download Google Chrome and be done with it.  If they really disliked IE, they could circulate Chrome on a CD.  Nobody was harmed by the inclusion of IE and the fine was absolutely BS.  BTW, they knew that IE came with Windows when the bought it.  They could have bought something else.  Nobody forced them to buy Windows!  But no, let's try a chicken**** fine!

I never understood the issue with bundling IE. I recall Gates testifying that it was integral to the OS, but still... Notepad, Paint, etc. were also bundled, and no complaint about that? Why?
You both have it wrong here.  It wasn't just included - you could not STOP using it. Certain Windows features were tied only to IE and this was the base of the lawsuit. Ie. a competitor could not compete on equal footings with MS. At least according to EU logic which is a completely different topic here.
 

Offline bitman

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #87 on: October 21, 2018, 01:49:56 am »
Lucky you. I have seen it as mad as requirements to install of some libraries FROM A PARTICULAR REPOSITORY even though it was of A SAME library version as anywhere else. otherwise the program did not work as expected. Some software requires having installed full Development  kits which may be enormous size and take hours. This is insane , you know.

You're doing it wrong then. There's a huge difference between a development environment and execution environment. I really don't know any developers who tries to rely on RPMs to setup their compile/build base. That's the result of their work - not the base of it.  The idea of a distribution is to make sure inter-dependencies are taken care of, so the same library can support multiple programs.  The moment you're looking at creating content to go into this tree, you start by creating a development structure OUTSIDE the global set of packages/header-files etc.  Which means, in one project you may pull down different versions of the libraries from what you pulled down for another project. This is why there are source/library repositories like maven, npm etc. out there - and none of them are built/meant for you to create global system wide configuration changes. They're all focused on the individual developer account.

Quite frankly, back in the days when I did use Windows (and OS/2, VMS, RS6000, BS2000 etc) that was the exact same process. Except we didn't have external repositories to easily pull down working versions of libraries we want to use.  Just look at good old "Configure/make" type tar-ball designs. It's ALL self-contained!

With flatpak, containers in general, all of this is now on getting yet another big tweak - so you setup completely isolated systems inside a core shell of a system. Meaning, the same CPU can run widely different versions of "the os" even if two programs have dependencies of incompatible API/header files - they'll run nicely side by side on the same CPU/Core/Thread.

It's been 15+ years since I switched my workstations to Linux all the way. One of the reasons I changed was the stupid notion that every piece of software installed needed to include the same runtime libraries locally. Impossible to patch and be consistent.  The development process was still the same. Your project directory had copies of all the dependencies needed to compile and do a local run of the software. How else would you test it? Look at the tons of build systems out there on FOSS projects. They all create mock systems fully created from the development branch - testing all changes to core libraries to a fix of a string that had a spelling error in it.

Please don't confuse the -devel packages as the base for core programming. That's the base for high level programs created for THAT specific platform/version. Which ends up as clear references in the generated manifest for the RPM/DEB package created based on that software.

And with all that said - the Atmel, ST, mbed stuff I've stumbled across include ALL libraries required for a full build already. It doesn't try to install RPMs/DEBs - but a full structure. That said, how they do it is bad. They think they need to configure global paths and unless you know your system/python etc. you don't need root and can create everything locally from $HOME. If they used FOSS it would be a simple BZ but clearly they're just as focused on Windows as you are and don't seem to care how to improve their process/setup.
 

Online coppice

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #88 on: October 21, 2018, 01:52:39 am »
You both have it wrong here.  It wasn't just included - you could not STOP using it. Certain Windows features were tied only to IE and this was the base of the lawsuit. Ie. a competitor could not compete on equal footings with MS. At least according to EU logic which is a completely different topic here.
The best thing about that was MS's "We didn't spread IE over all the libraries to create lock in. We're just very very bad engineers" defence.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #89 on: October 22, 2018, 02:40:05 pm »
You both have it wrong here.  It wasn't just included - you could not STOP using it. Certain Windows features were tied only to IE and this was the base of the lawsuit. Ie. a competitor could not compete on equal footings with MS. At least according to EU logic which is a completely different topic here.

They never learned either, I recall they locked Cortana in to use only Edge at some point. Not that it matters particularly to me, Cortana is a useless gimmick and Edge has been soundly rejected by the market.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #90 on: November 15, 2018, 10:44:21 am »
Relevant to this:
https://9to5google.com/2018/11/13/youtube-article-13-eu-copyright/

If it goes ahead as Susan says, it was nice meeting you guys (mikeselectricstuff, techmoan, etc...)
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Online cdev

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #91 on: November 15, 2018, 11:12:42 am »
Yes, the very fact that we still use humans as workers in many areas (even though automation is progressing fast) is because it's actually much easier to teach people to act like robots than it is to teach robots to act like humans.

Obviously, once this either becomes false as AI progresses, or the need to have workers with human traits disappears (both scenarios having an equal probability at this point IMO and are not quite mutually exclusive), there will be no reason left to make humans work. No reason except to enslave them so they don't rebel, that is. So it's entirely possible that all human jobs will become bullshit jobs (yes there's already a significant proportion of those) with no actual value other than to keep people busy.

Suppose the push to create punitive new copyright laws has a purpose. As somebody who knows that artists are being ripped off on a large scale, in a way that makes it almost impossibe for them to win, I am 100% certain that whatever the reason they have for doing this, its not getting artists their money.

My nomination is that its exclusionism. They want new laws to replace laws that are showing their age or less effective in their goals than they once were. What those goals are I can only speculate.

Its hard to say, but we need to understand the nature of the challenge they are facing. If jobs go away in large numbers, they are either going to have to increase taxes or decrease people. (eligible for help)

« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 11:45:11 am by cdev »
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Offline R005T3r

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #92 on: Yesterday at 03:20:45 am »
No, they don't need to increase taxes or decrease pepole.

All they need is a system that works as expected and if everything goes as expected, then they can self-regulate. If we would live in an ideal world, greed would not exist.... Working inside automation i can see that every move manufacturers make is greed-driven, and is that the same greed that it will destroy us all.
And greed-driven moves in a large scale have the potential to destroy an entire country or an entire organization as history proved so many times because it backfires.

 I firmly believe that when a problem arise and people are tired of the situation a solution is always found. It is only a matter of time and efforts. Pepole haven't rebelled in countries not because they are happy with the situation, but because the situation is not so bad...

As for robot replacing humans, it's simply not going to work... Imagine a society where no one works and no income. the "market" becomes stagnant and nobody is going to spend their money, go figure if a manufacturer is able to sell their products. It is simply not possible.
 

Online cdev

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #93 on: Yesterday at 05:45:27 am »
The trilemma: (most famously pointed out in recent times by Dani Rodrik but its been floating around for longer as I remember having this pointed out to me by some anonymous Canadian trade negotiator in the mid 1990s.)

we can have two of the following three, but not all three.

1 democratic governance at the local/state level,
2 nation state and independent laws, the norm up until the 1990s, and what most people think we still have, wrongly.
3 globalized economic governance - sort of global governance for corporations, it seems in practice, and the so called economic integration it is alleged to bring (and its alleged 'efficiency gains' - of job losses- what you were talking about - saying it wouldnt work, you're totally right, if you mean wont work for people, if people are no longer needed, they are no longer wanted).

Those who don't have money to spend, a group which is bound to grow in the coming years unless we drastically change course and start investing more money back into society in the form of education and social services, (both barred by little known international agreements to dismantle them)

which would mean taxation which countries are loathe to do because the rich and their money are extremely good at gaming national systems and they will take their money elsewhere or stash it offshore in tax havens..  The deregulation is to puff up the value of economies that are built on imagined wealth and unrealistic valuation. 'Churning' Not actual wealth creation.

Technology like electronics is an oasis of actual wealth creation. In terms of economic activity, technology driven wealth is getting cheaper and better, or should be. When it can be done without taking from anybody, and international agreements, as exist should attempt to do the opposite of what they do now. Or nothing. Nothing should be set up to limit democracy because it will always be rigged.

 that wealth should be shared by all, for example, by limiting certain kinds of patents to ever shorter periods. (because of exponential growth in technology it actually makes sense to have petent terms get shorter and shorter.) certainly, life saving patents of any kind, such as drug patents should never be evergreened.

But in many cases it isnt being shared at all. Quite the opposite. We're seeing what amounts to a global second enclosure. (<Reference to the British Enclosure Acts) In the form of trade agreements.

The public domain is actually shrinking in almost all respects. Just as natural resources are being looted and land held informally or in commons is being stolen and given to corporations. 

Technology, democratized could allow poor farmers to stay on their lands, by allowing them to utilize the same productivity enhancing technologies that larger faming operations use, like GPS-assisted agriculture.

Technology-democratized could rein in the giants and IF society decided we needed resiliency (and we do) allow small scale e-commerce to be just as efficient as the huge stores.  That would preserve jobs.

Otherwise, the ordinary people, more and more and more of us, will increasingly be left out to dry without services or education or means to pull themselves upward - without anything - Even jobs will vanish to cheap labor arrangements that game the global wage gradients to cut costs - The common folk are being quietly removed from the picture.

Because the system which really they should, we should all own (if we lived in a democracy of by and for the people) is really owned now by a very few and for that reason it fears them and it wants to wash its hands of them and this 'dull care' - its obligation. Noblesse oblige is dead. or dying.

Whether that means automation before its really ready, or offshoring and outsourcing of their jobs and means of survival, it is human nature among the wealthy. Emerging from guilt. The common people have a wisdom the wealthy lack and they see through these schemes in a minute.

This is why democracy has been quietly subverted by trade agreements. The people of our planet and and their basic human needs, are at best feared by politicians because they show how broken the so called perfect system really is getting for most of us and worse, in countries with high levels of inequality, very likely, the people are more and more likely to become the targets of efforts to marginalize them in large numbers, really mean spirited ones. "Poor is the new black".

The whole world really needs an honest discussion about what future we all want (a future which depends on trust which we're rapidly losing) and class, which its never had the guts to have.

Instead, enabled by high technology which is making it possible for business to exist without the people it has employed in the past, sacrificing on its altar - what you pointed out, its engine of prosperity, the middle class (and the idea of a middle class) Without a light at the end of the tunnel, for many more, we'll soon be - In some countries, we're already sliding back into the abyss.

Nobody in their right minds wants this.

Whats happening is happening in no small part because of something, a form of institutional dysfunction, self-reinforcing bad decisionmaking, called 'groupthink'.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 06:45:00 am by cdev »
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Offline edy

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #94 on: Yesterday at 08:29:07 am »
Imagine if you upload a video of your kids to facebook who just happened to be wearing some clothing containing Disney copyrighted images, you'll be done for...

This is already happening so much with audio it's f*&^$ing ridiculous!

I uploaded a video to YouTube when I was on a cruise and there happened to be some background music playing (among lots of people talking and cheering). The music was essentially USELESS to anyone wanting to really "pirate" a good version of the song, it was barely audible and certainly not enjoyable to listen.... YET THE ROBOTS at YouTube copyright infringed my video within seconds of uploading!!!

So will YouTube ROBOTS scan every frame of a YouTube video for an infringing image? I don't know... It's only happening with AUDIO because that is an easier pattern match computationally. But as computers get faster and these copyright laws get more draconian, I don't see why it won't happen more and more to EVERYTHING if these laws get out of control.

I think we've lost the "spirit" of the law, and going crazy over the "letter" of the law. It is utterly ridiculous!
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #95 on: Yesterday at 08:37:00 am »

Are you okay there? You seem to be going off on rants a lot more lately. Are you doing all right?
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #96 on: Yesterday at 09:29:19 am »
Well, I'm doing fine, but I wish I was living in a democratic world where my posts on important, easy to verify issues that effect us all wasn't being censored, but I am.

Thanks for your post, Mr Scram, you deserve to see what I actually posted in this thread, what I still see now when I look at my post from earlier today.  This isn't a rant, its an attempt to explain as best as I know how what is one of the major problems of our age.

BTW, the image is of Rodrik's Trilemma, Dani Rodrik is a Harvard economist.

Maybe Dave censored this, if so he has a right to do so, but if Dave did not censor it, and somebody else did, that's newsworthy.
In any case, somebody censored it.

Both the UK and Australia have laws allowing on the fly censorship, I am pretty sure. But why censor this? Its fact, and its an important insight - for those who don't know, into a major problem we face.
Why do you think you're being censored? I can see the full post, I just cut it in my quote because the post itself is not my concern. As far as I can tell I see the same as is in your image.

It does illustrate the point I was trying to make, though. You seem quite a bit more ranty and paranoid than usual in threads all over the forum lately. I know people tend to carry tensions and issues from the real world over to the forums, so I'm genuinely a bit concerned about your well-being. I hope you're not in distress or in need of help. We've seen people deteriorate before, which is why I'm asking in response to the change.
 

Online cdev

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #97 on: Yesterday at 09:50:51 am »
Mr. Scram,

 I'm doing fine. If indeed you deleted the text from my post and posted it as you say, then there is no story. I was mistaken.

Online censorship at the network level is very real. If you don't believe me, go to any of the web sites of the NGOs who monitor and tally such things. And indeed, as was pointed out above, its being done by AI software, without human intervention. That isn't speculation, its fact, and Ive had discussions about it with people who are much more knowledgeable about it than we are.

Their argument is that the volume of the stuff they are asked to evaluate is so large that there is no way that people could do it all. Also, its a hard job that understandably burns people out. So, what happens is the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater. Most of the time its a mistake and its not intentional. But because of the nature of these tools, its a very blunt instrument.

"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #98 on: Yesterday at 09:53:07 am »
Mr. Scram,

 I'm doing fine. If indeed you deleted the text from my post and posted it as you say, then there is no story. I was mistaken.

Online censorship at the network level is very real. If you don't believe me, go to any of the web sites of the NGOs who monitor and tally such things. And indeed, as was pointed out above, its being done by AI software, without human intervention. That isn't speculation, its fact, and Ive had discussions about it with people who are much more knowledgeable about it than we are.

Their argument is that the volume of the stuff they are asked to evaluate is so large that there is no way that people could do it all. Also, its a hard job that understandably burns people out. So, what happens is the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater. Most of the time its a mistake and its not intentional. But because of the nature of these tools, its a very blunt instrument.
Good to hear you're not in a pickle. Be sure to take care of yourself.
 

Online cdev

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Re: EU copytight law madness. It has passed. It will become a reality.
« Reply #99 on: Yesterday at 09:59:07 am »
Edy,

A wide variety of content is being censored for all sorts of reasons on virtually all of the large web sites.

They wont get into the finer details of what is censored or why (they claim its because they dont want to help the bad guys' evade it) but you're right, one of the things thats clearly being done is fingerprinting of copyright content and flagging of any use of it that can be identified. I have read quite a bit about this issue in the computer science literature. (much of it is available to the public if you dig for it.)  Google Scholar is a good starting point.

They use dedicated AI hardware to develop the censorship tools which makes them difficult at best to audit. In fact, they claim they dont know why things are flagged in a way that is human readable.

Its a recipe for disaster. Note, I don't think that the rank and file workers at the large web sites want anything like the orwellian world that is emerging from the widespread use of AI hardware to censor. But whats happening is the building of a system that automatically flags not just bad content, it flags arbitrary things, that might resemble bad content in ways that only a human could distinguish, or should distinguish. But the machines, which may have been trained by people who did have an agenda, sometimes in ways that are not discernible to most people - made decisions at one point to get the AI started. maybe those decisions were arbitrary, but the decisions may propagate and develop a life of their own, so to speak. Maybe the connection the hardware ends up making in a few months or years, is completely wrong. I'll get back to this idea in a minute.

But anyway, I have spoken with some of these people. I don't think they are lying to me.

Still, these decisions which seem to be made can be interpreted in multiple ways. Its entirely possible, at a higher level, some of this is intentional. But if so, I don't think even middle layer management is aware of whats happening. They feel they are protecting people from smut and racism and evil and they are, in many cases. and I do think thats genuine.   

(what caused this sudden rise in aggressive net behavior is an open question. Its entirely possible that some people are being paid to be trolls with the express purpose of shutting down what used to be an open net, of ideas, now.)

At a lower level I do think some engineers are making arbitrary decisions in the training data they feed into these 'perceptrons' etc. They have admitted as much. Thats a problem but how could it be solved?

How did suddenly some of the discussions essential to democracy get made to go away and everybody doing it gets a free pass?

Imagine if you upload a video of your kids to facebook who just happened to be wearing some clothing containing Disney copyrighted images, you'll be done for...

This is already happening so much with audio it's f*&^$ing ridiculous!

I uploaded a video to YouTube when I was on a cruise and there happened to be some background music playing (among lots of people talking and cheering). The music was essentially USELESS to anyone wanting to really "pirate" a good version of the song, it was barely audible and certainly not enjoyable to listen.... YET THE ROBOTS at YouTube copyright infringed my video within seconds of uploading!!!

So will YouTube ROBOTS scan every frame of a YouTube video for an infringing image? I don't know... It's only happening with AUDIO because that is an easier pattern match computationally. But as computers get faster and these copyright laws get more draconian, I don't see why it won't happen more and more to EVERYTHING if these laws get out of control.

I think we've lost the "spirit" of the law, and going crazy over the "letter" of the law. It is utterly ridiculous!
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:13:56 am by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 


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