Eu kettle regulations video

[apis]

I think another problem with the test is that they use the same amount of water when determining efficiency. The big kettle is approximately half full, the volume of water is therefore sphere-ish and thermal losses will be smaller. In the case of the small kettle it will be full and the volume of water will be more elongated, thus it will have larger surface area to total volume and emissions will be larger. There will also be differences in convection currents in the water and so on.

I don't really understand why they expected much of a difference in efficiency?

Dosen't affect us. Here in 'straaalia we use wood powered kettles

You'll be a long time waiting till your billy boiled. We use electric 3Kw kettles in this part of the world.

I like my 3 kW kettle as well but you can get huge power with a wood stove, efficiency and emissions are horrible though.

However, reducing the power input will always increase the amount of heat lost and reduce the efficiency, as more heat is being released into the surroundings, as you're waiting for the kettle to boil. This is basic physics.

This just proves the EU bureaucrats know nothing about science and engineering and the fact they're making laws which would increase carbon emissions and reduce efficiency of a kettle is a joke.

Well, it's not a law is it, it's allegedly something that has been proposed and we don't even have any details of what has been suggested so all this is just loose speculation.

If you look at all the bills in your local parliament I'm sure you would have nightmares for a week as well.

[tom66]

If someone boils a kettle twice a day and uses 3kW for 3 minutes, that's a total usage of ~100Wh/day or 37kWh/year.
That does seem fairly negligible really. Maybe the focus should be on improving other efficiencies.

[zapta]

Wow!  'Idiots',  'dumb fucks', 'stupid', 'morons'....

[sleemanj]

What is needed is not less powerful jugs, it's a super mega powerful but very low capacity jug, ideally, no capacity, just flow-through, cold water flow in, boiling water flow out, on demand, without pre-heating.

[Towger]

What is needed is not less powerful jugs, it's a super mega powerful but very low capacity jug, ideally, no capacity, just flow-through, cold water flow in, boiling water flow out, on demand, without pre-heating.

They exist but never seem to have taken off for domestic use. The main problem is the power required to 'instantly' boil water. Fine is you have 3 phase in your house.

There are also small kettles which take about a cup/mug of water and boil it in a few seconds.

[G7PSK]

When I were a lad, gay meant "not very good", as in "Man United are gay", or "homework is gay" etc.  Now I believe it has been hijacked by the homosexualist community...

Originally it had a positive meaning, associated with happiness. Around the late 1800s it became associated with promiscuity, and in the early 1900 with homosexuality. Unless you are over 70 years old then by the time you were a lad the use as an insult or to imply something was not very good was derived from homophobia. Obviously as a child no-one could expect you to know that, but as an adult I think it's reasonable to expect people to refrain from using the word in that context.

Of course, this comment will spark accusations of political correctness and censorship from people who don't understand what either is, so bring it on. I'd point out that the insistence on the use of language like this is actually conservative correctness.

And at one time here in the UK we had two political parties, the Gay's and the Wig's. Now it would appear that they are all perverts.

[tszaboo]

As usual with stories about the EU, these idiots completely missed the point.

Lower power means consumers are inclined to boil what they need. A lot of energy is wasted heating far more water than we use. In addition kettles need to be designed to work with a single cup of water. Most need at least 2-3 cups minimum.

So back to topic...
I've used a kettle which was designed to only heat up x amount of water. It was like those coffee machines, it heated up the water to 95-100 degrees as the water was going through it. It was perfect to make a cup of tee.
I I dont think it is a idiotic idea (I haven't seen the video).
Actually it was this one:
http://www.reuk.co.uk/Tefal-Quick-Cup-Eco-Kettle.htm
Actually, I might buy one for myself now that they reminded me to it.
Also, for your information, my father bought a vacuum cleaner after the "big vacuum cleaner scandal" and he said it is working much better, even though the wattage on it is less. His previous and current vacuum is both Philips.

[bookaboo]

I remember seeing a graph of electricity demand many years ago that showed that when the Televison adverts started large numbers went to put on kettles. I am guessing that the real reason that they might want to legislate to ban higher powered kettles is to reduce the power peaks. Modern jug kettles use a flat element at the bottom so can boil small amounts of water.
I've been told that UK electricity demand peaked at 99 % electricity capacity last year. If this winter is severe then power cuts are likely.

That would make sense but the law we're talking about here was made by the EU which is the problem. The EU can make whatever laws they like but they are not held accountable to the people. It's very undemocratic. There's a difference between legislation which covers trade and safety standards for products sold to the EU and laws which affect a state's sovereignty.

Smoothing of peak electricity demand does make sense, they have teams in power stations monitoring TV output so they can be ahead of the curve when popular soap operas go on break. The trend may fall off somewhat with on demand tv but it still exists.

As for EU being unaccountable, the eu parliament is elected just like councils, regional assembly and national parliament. I find all to be inefficient and capable of ridiculous decisions. All are equally unaccountable to anyone unless you have sufficient cash to offer a "donation" to a party.

[Zero999]

I was annoyed that your argument had devolved into lame ad-hominem attacks.

I think you'll find you're the one who started the  ad-hominem attacks, just look at your first response to this thread.

As usual with stories about the EU, these idiots completely missed the point.

Lower power means consumers are inclined to boil what they need. A lot of energy is wasted heating far more water than we use. In addition kettles need to be designed to work with a single cup of water. Most need at least 2-3 cups minimum.

Like with vacuum cleaners, this week force manufacturers to make good products that are efficient, instead of just trying to up the wattage and tank size all the time.

These dumb fucks didn't even read the proposal or understand it before making their stupid video. Morons.

[Delta]

I was annoyed that your argument had devolved into lame ad-hominem attacks.

I think you'll find you're the one who started the  ad-hominem attacks, just look at your first response to this thread.

As usual with stories about the EU, these idiots completely missed the point.

Lower power means consumers are inclined to boil what they need. A lot of energy is wasted heating far more water than we use. In addition kettles need to be designed to work with a single cup of water. Most need at least 2-3 cups minimum.

Like with vacuum cleaners, this week force manufacturers to make good products that are efficient, instead of just trying to up the wattage and tank size all the time.

These dumb fucks didn't even read the proposal or understand it before making their stupid video. Morons.

It's very much a case of the bearded pot calling the high efficiency kettle black...

[Simon]

The only real argument for reducing the power of kettles is to spread the load over time and reducing the instant power required by the network. There is of course also the transmission losses which follow a square law so there is a difference, how fast that catches up with losses due to dissipation during heating is going to be another hot debate.

As to the original video it's publicity wankery, the experiment is just abouts reasonably controlled and clearly it was a poor excuse to put the companies name on youtube on what was hoped would become a hot video.

[madires]

The kettle is just a heating element immersed in water. It takes 4.18kJ of energy to increase the temperature of a litre of water by 1°C. If tap water is 15°C then that's 88.8kJ to boil a 0.25l cup of water. There will be some heat lost to the surroundings which can be reduced by using better thermal insulation. However, reducing the power input will always increase the amount of heat lost and reduce the efficiency, as more heat is being released into the surroundings, as you're waiting for the kettle to boil. This is basic physics.

The common kettle has the heating element at the bottom, below the water. I haven't seen old style kettles with the heating element inside the kettle (fully immersed in water) for years. Safety vs. efficiency

[Zero999]

So back to topic...
I've used a kettle which was designed to only heat up x amount of water. It was like those coffee machines, it heated up the water to 95-100 degrees as the water was going through it. It was perfect to make a cup of tee.
I I dont think it is a idiotic idea (I haven't seen the video).
Actually it was this one:
http://www.reuk.co.uk/Tefal-Quick-Cup-Eco-Kettle.htm

My ex-girlfriend had a similar kettle. It was very good.

However if the EU cap the maximum power rating for kettles then it would be banned. Read the specification.

Water is drawn up from the 1.5 litre tank through an integrated Claris water filter cartridge and passed through a 2.8kW rated heating element.

[zapta]

We had a similar case where politicians tried to limit the size of soda cups with some 'common good' justification and the courts stroked it down.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/27/nyregion/city-loses-final-appeal-on-limiting-sales-of-large-sodas.html

[Simon]

However if the EU cap the maximum power rating for kettles then it would be banned. Read the specification.

It must be very inefficient. Japanese outlets are only capable of delivering about 1500W IIRC, but realistically most appliances stay well below that. My girlfriend's one dispenses extremely hot water instantly, so it doesn't seem to be a handicap.

time to heat = total power required / instant power available

I tried to build an instant water heater into an automated hand wash unit once but as we had an energy budjet of 3KW we could not use it as even for the slow flow requested and the low temperature required we needed 4KW

Heating water is 100% efficient ignoring dissipation and transmission losses.

[Simon]

Dosen't affect us. Here in 'straaalia we use wood powered kettles

cmon at least use a kelly kettle

[Zero999]

However if the EU cap the maximum power rating for kettles then it would be banned. Read the specification.

It must be very inefficient. Japanese outlets are only capable of delivering about 1500W IIRC, but realistically most appliances stay well below that. My girlfriend's one dispenses extremely hot water instantly, so it doesn't seem to be a handicap.

The laws of physics are the same the world over. With only 1500W it can't boil water that quickly, at 100% efficiency, it will take about a minute to boil a 250ml cup of water.

[apis]

Sigh, I've tried to find more info on this and it seems to be rumours based on a research that was ordered by the Commission. So it's not even proposed legislation. 

European Union is considering placing a ban high-powered hairdryers, kettles and lawnmowers in a bid to meet efficiency targets.

A study ordered by the European Commission identified up to 30 electrical items, including smartphones and hand-held power tools, which could be modified for greater energy savings.

As for the vacuum cleaners, what matters is how good they are at removing dirt. You can improve dirt removal efficiency in two ways: improve the design (aerodynamics and so on) or you can simply put a bigger and bigger fan motor in it. The ban is obviously intended to prevent manufacturers from simply putting larger and larger motors in the vacuum cleaners which apparently was the trend. Sounds like a good thing to force manufacturers to improve the design instead. Over 2 kW power for a vacuum cleaner is ridiculous.

[SL4P]

I'm lost for words after watching the test protocol!
Impossible to add more than already posted.

Edit: Actually I did think of something's to add...
I wonder what benefit there would be if there was a radial finned 'heat sink' wrapped around the element - to maximise the transfer of heat into the wafter... rather than the simple curved stainless steel worm that is seen in most kettles?

[SeanB]

My kettle does a single cup in 2 minutes, using 800W of power. Single cup in the microwave oven, and the timer is a single push button. Put cup in, close door, press start and wait till it finishes. As a plus it does tea nicely as well.

Popcorn is put the kernels in the bowl, put the cover plate on and press 3 times as it stops. No oil, just add ground pepper to taste.

[Simon]

I'm lost for words after watching the test protocol!
Impossible to add more than already posted.

Edit: Actually I did think of something's to add...
I wonder what benefit there would be if there was a radial finned 'heat sink' wrapped around the element - to maximise the transfer of heat into the wafter... rather than the simple curved stainless steel worm that is seen in most kettles?

How would this help ? the element would still deliver the same power, it may run slightly cooler but that makes no different to the amount of heat transfered and it would only affect the temperature at the surface of the element that is usually immersed in flowing coolant (water)

[Zero999]

My kettle does a single cup in 2 minutes, using 800W of power. Single cup in the microwave oven, and the timer is a single push button. Put cup in, close door, press start and wait till it finishes. As a plus it does tea nicely as well.

That's a very inefficient way to heat water. If the microwave has a power rating of 800W, the input power will be nearly double that. Buy a 1600W kettle and boil that cup of water in half the time and use half the energy.

[Mechanical Menace]

but as an adult I think it's reasonable to expect people to refrain from using the word in that context.

I think as an adult you should be expected to understand that in English usage defines the word, they can often change meanings many times in one persons lifetime, one wor can have many disparate meanings, and it doesn't matter if you want to limit the definition in your head to what you want it to mean so you can get off on being "outraged," you shouldn't expect it of others or try and dictate your love of being purposely hypersensitive as the only valid standpoint. You enjoy your persecution complex, that's fine. But others are happy to "move with the times" and accept a common 30+ year old usage of the word with no homophobic intent as such.

[PChi]

Edit: Actually I did think of something's to add...
I wonder what benefit there would be if there was a radial finned 'heat sink' wrapped around the element - to maximise the transfer of heat into the wafter... rather than the simple curved stainless steel worm that is seen in most kettles?

It's a good idea that has been implemented. The worm has been superceeded. Kettles that I have seen in recent years here in the UK have the element bonded to the base of the water container so that it's possible to boil only 1 cup of water.

[apis]

but as an adult I think it's reasonable to expect people to refrain from using the word in that context.

I think as an adult you should be expected to understand that in English usage defines the word, they can often change meanings many times in one persons lifetime, one wor can have many disparate meanings, and it doesn't matter if you want to limit the definition in your head to what you want it to mean so you can get off on being "outraged," you shouldn't expect it of others or try and dictate your love of being purposely hypersensitive as the only valid standpoint. You enjoy your persecution complex, that's fine. But others are happy to "move with the times" and accept a common 30+ year old usage of the word with no homophobic intent as such.

Around here we use the word British to mean bigot. Well actually we don't, but I hope you get the point. You may not mean it in a homophobic way but why do you expect others to understand that you don't really mean what you are saying?