Eu kettle regulations video

[Telonic]

Moderator note: I will leave this in place given the ensuing discussion but would otherwise consider this post/video as spam

Hi Guys,

You probably heard about the EU banning high power vacuum cleaners.
We heard a rumour they where going to do the same with kettles, this video proves it won't work!

Love to know you opinions.

[German_EE]

Given the unscientific method that he used to find out when the kettle had boiled a 3% difference in energy consumption is almost down in the noise. The bare minimum requirements to run the experiment again are:

1) Confirmation that the water inside the kettles is at room temperature and so are the kettle elements.

2) A method of stirring the water inside the kettle so that all water inside is at a uniform temperature.

3) A timer that starts at the beginning of the experiment and finishes when the water inside a kettle reaches 100 Degrees C. You then have an accurate reading of when the kettle has boiled.

4) Repeat the experiment at least ten times and then take an average of the results.

[nihilism]

Dosen't affect us. Here in 'straaalia we use wood powered kettles

[Mechanical Menace]

Given the unscientific method that he used to find out when the kettle had boiled a 3% difference in energy consumption is almost down in the noise.

I'd have to agree with that. Tbh with elements made to the same standard I can't see any reason a larger or smaller kettle would be any less efficient. Now if you need to constantly keep the water hot a bigger kettle filled to capacity would have less heat loss than a smaller one but meh, over filling the kettle is probably the biggest waster of energy anyhows. A maximum minimum fill for kettles would be better than regulating their maximum size and power.

[DimitriP]

We heard a rumour they where going to do the same with kettles,

Banning tea would save even more energy.

[Mechanical Menace]

We heard a rumour they where going to do the same with kettles,

Banning tea would save even more energy.

Nope, not happening. Even though Brits drink a surprisingly small amount of tea compared to the stereotype* they would use the veto.



*Both tea and coffee are at about 2.8kg per person a year, but you get much more cups of coffee out of that weight than you do tea.

[Zero999]

Given the unscientific method that he used to find out when the kettle had boiled a 3% difference in energy consumption is almost down in the noise.

I'd have to agree with that. Tbh with elements made to the same standard I can't see any reason a larger or smaller kettle would be any less efficient. Now if you need to constantly keep the water hot a bigger kettle filled to capacity would have less heat loss than a smaller one but meh, over filling the kettle is probably the biggest waster of energy anyhows. A maximum minimum fill for kettles would be better than regulating their maximum size and power.

It does prove though that smaller kettles won't be any more efficient and there's no evidence to suggest they will be.

Although the experiment isn't accurate enough to prove this. It is true a lowered power kettle will be less efficient than a higher powered kettle. With a lower powered kettle, there's more time for the heat to be lost into the surroundings. Suppose the power was reduced to just 8W. The kettle would probably never boil because, unless it was very well thermally insulated, it would soon reach a point when the heat loss becomes equal to the power input.

To increase the efficiency of a kettle you need to to improve the thermal insulation or you could use a heat pump but it would be expensive and finding one which works efficiently up to boiling would be difficult.

[firewalker]

Same volumes of water will need the same energy to reach a specific temperature independently of the power provided by the kettle. If we assume that the offer of energy via the element is way faster that the water can dissipate energy to the environment for both the kettles, the two numbers should match. I strongly believe that the final numbers is within the statistical error off such a loosely conducted experiment.

Alexander.

[apis]

Yeah, the idea must have been to make people not boil more water than they use. I try to get my mom to measure the amount of water with the cup she's going to use, she always boil two or three times the amount she use. Boiling water takes a lot of energy so reducing this waste might be significant. Not sure a ban is a good idea in this case though. I think the incandescent light ban turned out well, but they could have waited for the LED lamps to mature more and skipped the compact fluorescents. But on the other hand, the EU ban might have been an incentive to get the LED lamps to market quicker?

[Zero999]

Do you have a reference to the proposed legislation?

I'd agree about kettles needing to work with a single cup of water but I think capping the wattage is a step backwards in this case, especially as science indicates it will result in poorer efficiency.

[Delta]

Well thank feck for the almighty EU, they know best.  What on earth would we do without them?  I hope you buy a vacuum cleaner before they get limited to 900W in 2017, or you might have to pay your cleaner an extra hour a week...

[c4757p]

Makes sense that you feel so strongly about this, given how enamored you always seem to be with any legislation that bans anything. You must have been the kid in kindergarten who loved to tattle with glee on anyone doing anything even remotely off-limits.

[Delta]

Makes sense that you feel so strongly about this, given how enamored you always seem to be with any legislation that bans anything. You must have been the kid in kindergarten who loved to tattle with glee on anyone doing anything even remotely off-limits.

He'll change his tune if Brussels tries to legislate against electric beard trimmers...

[PChi]

I remember seeing a graph of electricity demand many years ago that showed that when the Televison adverts started large numbers went to put on kettles. I am guessing that the real reason that they might want to legislate to ban higher powered kettles is to reduce the power peaks. Modern jug kettles use a flat element at the bottom so can boil small amounts of water.
I've been told that UK electricity demand peaked at 99 % electricity capacity last year. If this winter is severe then power cuts are likely.

[Zero999]

I remember seeing a graph of electricity demand many years ago that showed that when the Televison adverts started large numbers went to put on kettles. I am guessing that the real reason that they might want to legislate to ban higher powered kettles is to reduce the power peaks. Modern jug kettles use a flat element at the bottom so can boil small amounts of water.
I've been told that UK electricity demand peaked at 99 % electricity capacity last year. If this winter is severe then power cuts are likely.

That would make sense but the law we're talking about here was made by the EU which is the problem. The EU can make whatever laws they like but they are not held accountable to the people. It's very undemocratic. There's a difference between legislation which covers trade and safety standards for products sold to the EU and laws which affect a state's sovereignty.

[CatalinaWOW]

So for maximum efficiency you need a one cup kettle.  As engineers we don't even need an experiment to figure that out.  But when you have a guest you will need a two cup kettle.  And then when the folks come over for a visit you need a three cup kettle.  You couldn't in good conscience use two or three one cup kettles because that would be less efficient.

Sounds like the kettle manufacturers will love this.  Either you buy three different size kettles, or a single Rube Goldberg monstrosity that can optimize efficiency at multiple quantities.  And if you go the three kettle route you need a larger flat to store them.  Or maybe you just rent a kettle as required, running down to the local agency to exchange for the size needed today.  The energy costs of the larger flat or the complex kettle or the various trips to the rental agency come from a different account so it is all OK. 

Legislation, even when well intended often has consequences quite different from that desired.

[Delta]

Sounds like an interesting machine, do you have a link to it please?

I admit that I did have to look up "pogonophobia", but I certainly do not suffer from that condition.  In fact, your extreme offence at my insinuation that you were a pogonoist, leads me to think that you may well be the pogonophobe!

[madires]

Well thank feck for the almighty EU, they know best.  What on earth would we do without them?  I hope you buy a vacuum cleaner before they get limited to 900W in 2017, or you might have to pay your cleaner an extra hour a week...

I don't know how old you are, but over the years the vacuum cleaners got more and more power. Old ones got around 750W and current ones are 2200W and even more. Are current high power vacuum cleaners better than old ones? I doubt it, but most people think that more power is better. It's like using a 500W lab PSU for powering a circuit which runs off a AA.

[Towger]

Dosen't affect us. Here in 'straaalia we use wood powered kettles

You'll be a long time waiting till your billy boiled. We use electric 3Kw kettles in this part of the world.

[Delta]

I would say it was more a case of caricaturing than characterising.  It's a good one nowadays as it merges the traditional bearded psuedo-liberal lefty with the modern hipster knobhead.  Your extreme indignation at my initial throwaway comment is the only reason I have repeated the reference.

[Mechanical Menace]

We use electric 3Kw kettles in this part of the world.

So do I and I have a ridiculously low energy consumption for someone in the UK. For places nowhere near as well off as the UK actually too. And I don't really do without tbh.

Two things I don't use though are my dishwasher or tumble dryer.

TBH I use gay as an insult at times. I don't automatically associate that word with homosexual though. Usage defines meaning hence English evolves easily and (relatively for a language) quickly.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Dosen't affect us. Here in 'straaalia we use wood powered kettles

Do you still have those dodgy jug kettles with uninsulated mains elements in the water ?

[Zero999]

Wait, you're now talking about vacuum cleaners which are totally different and much more complex than kettles.

It's possible to improve the efficiency of a vacuum cleaner by doing things like replacing the universal motor with a brushless one, using cyclonic filtration, rather than filters and improved aerodynamics.

The kettle is just a heating element immersed in water. It takes 4.18kJ of energy to increase the temperature of a litre of water by 1°C. If tap water is 15°C then that's 88.8kJ to boil a 0.25l cup of water. There will be some heat lost to the surroundings which can be reduced by using better thermal insulation. However, reducing the power input will always increase the amount of heat lost and reduce the efficiency, as more heat is being released into the surroundings, as you're waiting for the kettle to boil. This is basic physics.

This just proves the EU bureaucrats know nothing about science and engineering and the fact they're making laws which would increase carbon emissions and reduce efficiency of a kettle is a joke.

[Delta]

TBH I use gay as an insult at times. I don't automatically associate that word with homosexual though. Usage defines meaning hence English evolves easily and (relatively for a language) quickly.

When I were a lad, gay meant "not very good", as in "Man United are gay", or "homework is gay" etc.  Now I believe it has been hijacked by the homosexualist community...

[Mechanical Menace]

TBH I use gay as an insult at times. I don't automatically associate that word with homosexual though. Usage defines meaning hence English evolves easily and (relatively for a language) quickly.

When I were a lad, gay meant "not very good", as in "Man United are gay", or "homework is gay" etc.  Now I believe it has been hijacked by the homosexualist community...

 

And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.

EDIT:

https://youtu.be/Xe1a1wHxTyo