Author Topic: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil  (Read 12417 times)

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Offline Delta

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2018, 01:20:58 am »
WTF is this shit? I don't care what colour or creed the person designing my xxxxxx is, but I certainly want them to be rigourous about it.
 
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2018, 01:32:51 am »
I am not really sure what value Donna Riley adds, like her or not, it can't be denied that she is definitely divisive. I'll add that the "rigor" definition argument she was making in the video was rather childlike, and I use the term "childlike" deliberately as a genuine critique, not as an ad hominem: you can just imagine her as a child looking up rude words in the dictionary.

I don't really have a view one way or the other on the maker of the video, but I wasn't tempted to subscribe.

Riley's very presence at Purdue will, I am pretty darned sure, have a net negative effect on influencing those considering Purdue for engineering.

Gender imbalance in engineering and STEM in general isn't something that can be solved (assuming it needs to be solved) at tertiary education: any negative career perception has already been done way back in earlier school years.

While many of us talk about the the gender imbalance in STEM, nobody is complaining about the diametrically opposite gender imbalance in those university course with names ending in "Studies"? There is a correlation in reducing numbers of women in some areas of STEM, particularly Maths and Computing, with the increase in the number of women studying "Studies", some would argue that is more than just correlation.

One thing is for certain, if you're a woman in technology, per capita you are at a distinct advantage nowadays when it comes to landing a job IME. Everyone is falling over themselves to address gender imbalance. I just don't see the resumes/CVs, but given a man or a woman with the same experience, qualifications and soft skills, the woman will tend to get the job.
 
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Offline klaff

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2018, 02:30:35 am »
As a straight white male engineer with 3 decades of experience, I have reached some conclusions.

While early in my career I focused entirely on technical rigor, and while I still take pride in being thorough and complete in my work, the problems in the world that distress me the most are not technical but social. It is quite clear, and there is an overwhelming amount of rigorous evidence, that sexism, misogyny, racism, homophobia, xenophobia, ageism, and other sorts of bigotries are not only common but embedded in the structures of our society, in everything from education to hiring to law enforcement to banking to health care to housing to employment and so on.

It is also quite clear that a simple declaration that one is not sexist or racist or otherwise intends to be fair to everyone is at best naive and often a sign of wilful ignorance. Implicit bias is real; we process words spoken by a woman differently from those spoken by a man immediately, on the first word. It is impossible to work with others and not tend to treat them differently in the presence of salient differences in gender, race, orientation, etc. What you can do is learn about how our minds work and structure your work and your environment to make the world a better place.

Working in ignorance of all of this does not make you rigorous or virtuous or right. Pretending you want everything to be fair but then arguing that any effort to make the world more fair should happen somewhere else or be done by someone else is lazy and a sign that you enjoy your privilege.

I believe Professor Riley is working to make the world a better place. That's something we should all be doing.
 
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Online Ampera

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2018, 02:51:59 am »
I believe you may be confusing the concepts of equal and fair treatment.

I can agree with you to the concept that there are innate biases that people hold against certain types of people. I try not to hold any, and I definitely try not to act on them if I do have any. My point is that we can't do anything about those. We can't change people's innate biases the same way you can't tell someone what to believe.

People like Riley don't tend to like to take this sitting down. They try their darnedest to forcibly introduce strict, often unfair policies to restrict opposing opinions. They may try to make the world a better place, but there is such a thing as trying too hard to win a battle that can't be won.

Also, isn't misogyny just a subset of sexism?

The world isn't perfect, and it's far from being so. I understand your argument that people going against some of these people may seem like they are just trying to keep their privileged position. I can't speak for anybody but myself, and I personally dislike this person's arguments because they absolutely do not make a change. I can give you advice on how to get people interested in STEM fields. I can give a list of disadvantaged people that should get grant money to help them achieve their goals, and so long as the balancing act of fair treatment is respected, I will never have a problem with it.

What I have a problem with is people like Riley who try to take really stupid, mundane shit that has no bearing on the issue at hand, suggesting a solution that would be very damaging to people who don't deserve it, and try to make illegal the concept of wrongthink. The thing that really upsets me, however, is that they try to pawn it off as being on the pure and right side of history, and try to convince people to would dare try to object to what is so obviously a debateless matter of equality.
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Online rstofer

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2018, 03:13:05 am »
But I like slide rules...

I don't think dumbing down engineering is a winning proposition.  We need to smarten up people and we sure aren't going to do it at Purdue.

The good news is that Stanford, Cal Tech, Berkeley and MIT still have standards.

She is right about the lack of diversity in engineering.  It starts around 3rd grade and just keeps getting more pronounced as grade level increases.  If women and minorities are underrepresented on admission to college, they will be more underrepresented on exit.  We've been working on that issue for 40 years that I know of and we don't seem to have gotten anywhere.

Not a popular idea and certainly not 'correct' but engineering is a competitive endeavor and males like to compete.  Females would rather smooth things over.  There is a possibility that, ignoring outliers, it is simply never going to be 'equal' - by whatever metric somebody wants to choose.  Genetics may play an important role but that's out of my pay grade.

The Google engineer that was fired for daring to discuss the situation comes to mind:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/01/lawsuit-goes-after-alleged-anti-conservative-bias-at-google/

Worse yet, the labor board upheld the firing...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-16/google-firing-of-damore-was-legal-u-s-labor-panel-lawyer-said

What we shouldn't be doing is assuring equal outcome without equal effort though that seems to be a popular theme these days.  The high school drop-out should be paid the same as somebody with an MS or PhD.  Just because it is 'only fair'.

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Offline jonovid

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2018, 03:23:54 am »
difference between men and women is an important difference! so be true to yourself.  are you in the wrong job?
trying to fit a square peg in a round hole is not to make the hole more inclusive by making it larger!  :palm:
snowflake generation needs to learn the lesson. men and women are not equal in all things. that is life!  ::)
so standards matter  dumbing down is bad.  health care standards for nurses,  standards for engineering. that's my opinion.
Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 

Online Ampera

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2018, 03:26:41 am »
The idea of being fair is not forcing people to shoehorn people into a specific role just because it's out of balance. People will be happy any try to make a living either way, and I will be glad to take anybody into whatever profession I partake in with the same respect as any other.
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Offline Quarlo Klobrigney

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2018, 03:39:46 am »
I'm an Engineer, and a :horse: white :horse: man. SJW BS

edit: "Everyone's holding me back." Um maybe you just suck at what you do.
To quote, "Well, the world needs ditch diggers too"
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 03:48:06 am by Quarlo Klobrigney »
Voltage, does not flow, nor does it go.
 
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Offline retrolefty

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2018, 03:42:46 am »
I love the smell of "Rigor" in the morning.

 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2018, 03:44:35 am »
[..] What I have a problem with is people like Riley who try to take really stupid, mundane shit that has no bearing on the issue at hand, suggesting a solution that would be very damaging to people who don't deserve it, and try to make illegal the concept of wrongthink. [..]

Welcome To Progressive Utopia:
 
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Online Ampera

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2018, 03:49:23 am »
That is the best video I've seen all year. It matches my points exactly.
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Online coppice

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2018, 03:52:13 am »
I believe Professor Riley is working to make the world a better place. That's something we should all be doing.
Can you tell us what she said or did which led you to that conclusion?
 

Offline chipss

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2018, 03:54:05 am »
What ever, now go make me a samich! And get me a beer while your at it. :-DD
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2018, 03:54:10 am »
When somebody says that the purpose of the word rigor is asserting white male heterosexuality, that's  how you know they are a feminist.

No, if somebody says "rigor is asserting white male heterosexuality" then you know they are an idiot. It has nothing to do with feminism whatsoever.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2018, 04:20:19 am »
What ever, now go make me a samich! And get me a beer while your at it. :-DD
That's not helpful, even if just a joke. We can polarize ourselves to the hilt, but that's guaranteed to tear a society to shreds. There are unfortunate examples of that in the news every day.

It's fine to think what you think. Just don't be a dick about it, on whatever side you end up.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2018, 04:23:32 am »
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline klaff

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2018, 04:30:51 am »
I believe you may be confusing the concepts of equal and fair treatment.
I don't believe so.

My point is that we can't do anything about those. We can't change people's innate biases the same way you can't tell someone what to believe.
I disagree. These biases come from our culture, and we can change our culture, but only if we want to.

People like Riley don't tend to like to take this sitting down. They try their darnedest to forcibly introduce strict, often unfair policies to restrict opposing opinions. They may try to make the world a better place, but there is such a thing as trying too hard to win a battle that can't be won.
Why should anyone take inequality and injustice sitting down? And please tell me what "strict, often unfair policies" she is introducing? Be specific. What is she doing to restrict your opinion or your expression of it?

Also, isn't misogyny just a subset of sexism?
Yes, but making the distinction is sometimes useful.

... so long as the balancing act of fair treatment is respected, I will never have a problem with it.
What do you mean by that, specifically "the balancing act of fair treatment"?

What I have a problem with is people like Riley who try to take really stupid, mundane shit that has no bearing on the issue at hand, suggesting a solution that would be very damaging to people who don't deserve it, and try to make illegal the concept of wrongthink.

What solution would be damaging to whom?
Where is Professor Riley trying to make anything illegal? Is she campaigning to repeal the 1st Amendment? I must have missed that part. And what the hell is wrongthink? Why would you want to be wrong?

The thing that really upsets me, however, is that they try to pawn it off as being on the pure and right side of history, and try to convince people to would dare try to object to what is so obviously a debateless matter of equality.
Who is they? I thought you were criticizing Professor Riley?
I didn't hear Riley talk about the pure and right side of history. Who or what are you talking about?
 

Offline klaff

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2018, 04:43:54 am »
I believe Professor Riley is working to make the world a better place. That's something we should all be doing.
Can you tell us what she said or did which led you to that conclusion?
I'm basing it on what she appears to care about in her statements and the body of her work, which includes the book Engineering and Social Justice (the preface of which anticipates the responses in this thread).
 

Offline klaff

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2018, 05:01:03 am »
That is the best video I've seen all year. It matches my points exactly.

Some questions on that video:

What wholesome values were quietly reclassified as ugly prejudices? Be specific.

What speech has made you a criminal? Again, be specific. Include the relevant statutes, regulations, etc.

Who's going to exclude you for using the wrong pronoun? I know I"m being repetitive, but be specific.

Your presence is no longer required? Who is planning to remove anyone from society? (Yes, be specific.)

Who's telling you you can't speak? I'm arguing with you, sure. I'm exercising MY RIGHT to free speech. But I'm not saying you can't speak.

Who believes that hurting someone's feelings is on par with cracking a skull? (BE SPECIFIC! WHERE DID ANYONE SAY THIS?)

What petititions are circulating to shut you up or down? Or anybody?

What law protects feelings?

Were you banned from social media? And is someone actually purging dangerous fascist throwbacks from society? (BE SPECIFIC!)
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2018, 05:05:40 am »
That is the best video I've seen all year. It matches my points exactly.

Some questions on that video:

What wholesome values were quietly reclassified as ugly prejudices? Be specific.

What speech has made you a criminal? Again, be specific. Include the relevant statutes, regulations, etc.

Who's going to exclude you for using the wrong pronoun? I know I"m being repetitive, but be specific.

Your presence is no longer required? Who is planning to remove anyone from society? (Yes, be specific.)

Who's telling you you can't speak? I'm arguing with you, sure. I'm exercising MY RIGHT to free speech. But I'm not saying you can't speak.

Who believes that hurting someone's feelings is on par with cracking a skull? (BE SPECIFIC! WHERE DID ANYONE SAY THIS?)

What petititions are circulating to shut you up or down? Or anybody?

What law protects feelings?

Were you banned from social media? And is someone actually purging dangerous fascist throwbacks from society? (BE SPECIFIC!)

Careful mate, using up that much straw you're going to make some poor horse go hungry.  :)

Rather than set up twenty strawmen for someone else to knock over, why don't you actually advance a reasoned argument for your point of view?
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline klaff

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2018, 05:07:45 am »
I didn't set up any strawmen. Those are all straight from the video. I'm just asking for that rigor that people seem so fond of.
 

Offline gnavigator1007

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2018, 05:16:41 am »
The guy in the video seems a bit overly sensitive about the professor's comments. He might have produced something a tad more sensible by approaching the discussion as an opportunity to discuss rather than lashing out with a bunch of clips lacking context and quick digs. Video came across as a guy trying to be offended by everything for the sake of views from others looking to have something to be mad about.

She might be a bad educator and/or engineer.  :-// I do know I wasted enough of my life watching all of his video.   
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2018, 05:18:37 am »
I didn't set up any strawmen. Those are all straight from the video. I'm just asking for that rigor that people seem so fond of.

So you don't actually have an actual argument to put forward then? You're just going to adopt a passive aggressive contrarian stance?
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Online wraper

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2018, 05:23:34 am »
I believe Professor Riley is working to make the world a better place. That's something we should all be doing.
No, she is working to make a world of offended crybabies. Not educated people who are ready for difficult work and overtimes.
 
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Offline gnavigator1007

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Re: Feminist Professor Thinks "Rigor" is Evil
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2018, 05:25:20 am »
I believe Professor Riley is working to make the world a better place. That's something we should all be doing.
No, she is working to make a world of offended crybabies. Not educated people who are ready for difficult work and overtimes.

Well apparently her evil scheme is working. I just watched a whole video of some guy wetting his pants on YouTube because of her
 
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