Fire in UK apartment building supposedly caused by oldrefrigerator that exploded

[cdev]

So, it turns out I was right, the council HAD outsourced their work.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/22/council-outsourcing-leads-to-loss-of-crucial-expertise
----------------

@stj Was this footage taken during the fire?

Quote from: stj on Today at 02:54:15

bit of unsurprising news,
somebody leaked a ton of video from the council camera's installed in the block.
because we all know that government agents all suffer from S.O.D.S. and consider camera's a much higher priority than alarms or sprinklers!

S.O.D.S. = Survailence Obsession Disorder. - a clinical condition. 

[stj]

i think so, but it got pulled amazingly fast!
i'm sure it will re-surface soon, utube was not the smartest place to upload it!

[floobydust]

Reynobond aluminium/polyethylene  panels;
Approved use in Germany, France, Russia, Spain; product advertised as "...state of the art in fire safety".
What a scam.

[abraxa]

Reynobond aluminium/polyethylene  panels;
Approved use in Germany, France, Russia, Spain; product advertised as "...state of the art in fire safety".
What a scam.

It being approved doesn't say much. It certainly isn't approved for tall buildings.

[stj]

revolution-time!

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/bconline/buildingControlDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=_RBKC_BCAPR_123520
 

[mc172]

This is also on that website: https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/bconline/buildingControlDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=_RBKC_BCAPR_124682

It describes the work ("New floor areas, new overcladding & windows, new heating system, reconfigured podium and entrance") and at the bottom says "completed not approved".

[Gyro]

It looks official, the Police say that the fire started in a Hotpoint fridge freezer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40380584

[cdev]

I hope they can mine the video to determine how many people were there that night and determine how many are still unaccounted for.
Seems to me the structural aspect is solid enough to search for bodies. It's possible some/ many families were away too, given its summer.




Quote from: stj on Yesterday at 16:24:41

i think so, but it got pulled amazingly fast!
i'm sure it will re-surface soon, utube was not the smartest place to upload it!

[Cerebus]

Seems to me the structural aspect is solid enough to search for bodies.

I don't think that's necessarily the issue. Don't forget that we dispose of human remains by cremation. A big fire can get quite hot enough to have the same effect. In much of the building there may not be bodies, just cremains.

Sure, you get some bits of bone left but those can be fragments, not whole easily identifiable bones. Sorting thought the ashes, picking those out and reassembling those into a skeleton well enough to say that you've got n human skeletons is a slow, painstaking job for a team of forensic physical anthropologists. Identifying them is a more difficult task still.

Here's a picture of one corner of the interior. Basically anything that isn't concrete, ceramic or metal has been burned to ash:



Updated to add:

She said officers had been in the tower "from top to bottom", adding that next week a lift would be installed to the outside of the building.

She added the forensic search "may not be complete until the end of the year".

"There is a terrible reality that we may not find or identify everyone who died due to the intense heat."

[cdev]

This picture is from an ad for a rental there I found while searching for images on the fire. It looks like the same general kind of room layout, I don't know if its identical. It looks lower down in the building from the view in the window.

[nctnico]

Finding bodies after a major incident with intense fire is hard. For example: A couple of decades ago a Boeing 747 cargo plane crashed into this 10 story high apartment building causing a huge fire:

The official death toll excluding the people on the airplane is 39.

[stj]

the reason they couldnt search for body's there, was because the israeli scum had been smuggling chemical weapons on the plane.
that area is still contaminated now!

[MK14]

the reason they couldnt search for body's there, was because the israeli scum had been smuggling chemical weapons on the plane.
that area is still contaminated now!

Apparently that is not true. It was part of the planes at the time.
Nothing to do with Israel.

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862

suffered from symptoms similar to the Gulf War Syndrome or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome-like symptoms.
Dutch officials from government departments of transport and of public health asserted that at the time of the crash it was understood that there were no health risks from any cargo on the aircraft; Els Borst, minister of public health, stated that "geen extreem giftige, zeer gevaarlijke of radioactieve stoffen" ("no extremely toxic, very dangerous, or radioactive materials") had been on board. However, in October 1993, the nuclear energy research foundation Laka reported that the tail contained 282 kilograms (622 lb) of depleted uranium as trim weight, as did all Boeing 747s at the time; this was not known during the rescue and recovery process.[16][17]
It was suggested that studies be undertaken on the symptoms of the affected survivors and service personnel, but for several years these suggestions were ignored on the basis that there was no practical reason to believe in any link between the health complaints of the survivors and the Bijlmer crash site. In 1997, however, an expert testified in the Israeli parliament that dangerous products would have been released during combustion of the depleted uranium in the tail of the Boeing 747.

[Gyro]

... the nuclear energy research foundation Laka reported that the tail contained 282 kilograms (622 lb) of depleted uranium as trim weight, as did all Boeing 747s at the time; this was not known during the rescue and recovery process.

On the basis that their planes would never ever crash? Another case of severely flawed risk analysis. 

[MK14]

... the nuclear energy research foundation Laka reported that the tail contained 282 kilograms (622 lb) of depleted uranium as trim weight, as did all Boeing 747s at the time; this was not known during the rescue and recovery process.

On the basis that their planes would never ever crash? Another case of severely flawed risk analysis. 

I think a number of Boeing 747's and maybe other flying crafts, have still got it.

The problem might be when it is exposed to a very big fire, it turns nasty (Chemically and/or radio-actively speaking).

[stj]

i'm not talking about the depleted uranium used as tail-end ballast.

i'm talking about the drums of chemicals on board.
incase you dont remember, i do!
the plane had problems, but refused to land at the nearest airport and tried to make it to a military base - obviously failing.
a later investigation found it was transporting banned chemicals and didnt want to risk being searched at a civilian airfield.

[vodka]

Seems to me the structural aspect is solid enough to search for bodies.

I don't think that's necessarily the issue. Don't forget that we dispose of human remains by cremation. A big fire can get quite hot enough to have the same effect. In much of the building there may not be bodies, just cremains.

Sure, you get some bits of bone left but those can be fragments, not whole easily identifiable bones. Sorting thought the ashes, picking those out and reassembling those into a skeleton well enough to say that you've got n human skeletons is a slow, painstaking job for a team of forensic physical anthropologists. Identifying them is a more difficult task still.



Here's a picture of one corner of the interior. Basically anything that isn't concrete, ceramic or metal has been burned to ash:



Updated to add:

She said officers had been in the tower "from top to bottom", adding that next week a lift would be installed to the outside of the building.

She added the forensic search "may not be complete until the end of the year".

"There is a terrible reality that we may not find or identify everyone who died due to the intense heat."

But on a crematory, the rest of body(bones) are smashed inside the oven with a steel rod, with the goal finishing to burn the tissues and it can fit by the ash hole. Instead , on a burned building("without collapsing") , the bigger rest of victims (skull, jaw,long bones,etc) stayed intact on the place where they died. 

"The process of a cremation and a crematorium WARNING!!! GRAPHIC"
https://youtu.be/kJTclbBKxKk?t=3m2s

[StillTrying]

1000s of people are being moved out of their flats tonight, - just in case.   

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40389148

[MK14]

i'm not talking about the depleted uranium used as tail-end ballast.

i'm talking about the drums of chemicals on board.
incase you dont remember, i do!
the plane had problems, but refused to land at the nearest airport and tried to make it to a military base - obviously failing.
a later investigation found it was transporting banned chemicals and didnt want to risk being searched at a civilian airfield.

I haven't found a definitive answer. But the following one, generally disagrees (that there were dangerous/toxic chemicals), but does leave some possibility of doubt.
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/nerve-gas-element-was-in-el-al-plane-lost-in-1992-crash.html

tl;dr
Drums = YES
But UNSAFE/TOXIC = NO

But then official answers "COULD" be wrong or trying to hide stuff. Hence the hopefully slight doubt.

[Cerebus]

i'm not talking about the depleted uranium used as tail-end ballast.

i'm talking about the drums of chemicals on board.
incase you dont remember, i do!
the plane had problems, but refused to land at the nearest airport and tried to make it to a military base - obviously failing.
a later investigation found it was transporting banned chemicals and didnt want to risk being searched at a civilian airfield.

I haven't found a definitive answer. But the following one, generally disagrees (that there were dangerous/toxic chemicals), but does leave some possibility of doubt.
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/nerve-gas-element-was-in-el-al-plane-lost-in-1992-crash.html

tl;dr
Drums = YES
But UNSAFE/TOXIC = NO

But then official answers "COULD" be wrong or trying to hide stuff. Hence the hopefully slight doubt.

Two quotes from that article:

The Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad reported on Wednesday that the plane was carrying about 50 gallons of dimethyl methylphosphonate, which the paper said was enough to produce 594 pounds of sarin.

The newspaper printed a copy of what it said was a freight document showing that the material came from Solkatronic Chemicals Inc. in Morrisville, Pa., and was sent to the Institute for Biological Research in the Israeli town of Ness Ziona, south of Tel Aviv. The institute's work is a closely guarded secret in Israel.

But a spokesman for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that the chemical was not toxic and had been ordered by Israel to test gas masks and other filters designed to protect against chemical agents.

Dimethyl methylphosphonate is a schedule 2 substance under the Chemical Weapons Convention*. This flight is timed suspiciously close to the time when it would have become illegal for the US to export DMMP to Israel (a non-ratifying nation and hence banned as a recipient of schedule 2 substances). Looks like the Israelis were exploiting a 'last chance to buy'. Timing in the run-up to the CWC signature and ratification by the US would be politically embarrassing for the US, so it's easy to see why the Israelis were trying to keep as quiet as possible about what they had on board.

The claim that it is not toxic is laughable - Sigma-Aldrich list the following PPE to be used while handling it:  Eyeshields, Faceshields, full-face respirator (US), Gloves, multi-purpose combination respirator cartridge (US), type ABEK (EN14387) respirator filter and call it out as "Hazardous to Health". It's an organophosphate, a class of substances that are notorious for their toxicity.

The claim that dimethyl methylphosphonate was for testing gas masks sounds highly suspect, there are plenty of substances suitable for testing gas masks that aren't nerve gas precursors. According to the same report other Sarin precursors were on the plane, one crucial precursor was missing. I'll have a bet the missing precursor was one one that's easy to get - isopropanol. So, more likely this was a half truth. They were going to make Sarin, but they weren't going make enough for military use, only enough for gas mask testing (and perhaps a bit left over for the odd MOSSAD assasination).

*

Schedule 2 substances, in the sense of the Chemical Weapons Convention, are chemicals that can either be used as chemical weapons themselves or used in the manufacture of chemical weapons but that have small-scale applications outside of chemical warfare and so can be legitimately manufactured in small quantities. An example is thiodiglycol, which can be used in the manufacture of mustard agents but is also used as a solvent in inks.

Manufacture must be declared as their production is subject to declaration to the OPCW per Part VII of the "Verification Annex", and they may not be exported to countries that are not party to the Convention

[cdev]

If tenants who lived in the building but were away, maybe on vacation, presumably after the fire they would have checked in so that they could be relocated, does anybody know if any families have done that?

[cdev]

Hold on a second, isn't this flammable cladding on the EXTERIOR of the buildings?

In other words, it can be replaced with something else without disrupting their lives one bit.

[Cerebus]

If tenants who lived in the building but were away, maybe on vacation, presumably after the fire they would have checked in so that they could be relocated, does anybody know if any families have done that?

Given the high proportion of immigrants in that building it's not beyond likelihood that some people are away visiting relatives somewhere rural in a less developed country where they won't hear about this until they get to an airport. If that does happen they will be miserable, but any friends who didn't know that they were away will be overjoyed.

Some could be away for an extended period, either in the UK or abroad, and in particular somewhere away from phones and the media. I've been away walking for 14 days in the UK before, deliberately keeping away from cellphone coverage. It might be a few days yet until we hear a story like this emerge.

[Cerebus]

Hold on a second, isn't this flammable cladding on the EXTERIOR of the buildings?

In other words, it can be replaced with something else without disrupting their lives one bit.

I've seen cladding systems like this, in fact one has just been used on a school being refurbished just around the corner. The windows and the cladding are usually integrated. So to replace the cladding they have to rip the windows out.

Here's the actual exterior of the Chalcots Estate that is currently being "evacuated" (from the Projects Archive of the people who put the cladding up):

[StillTrying]

Hold on a second, isn't this flammable cladding on the EXTERIOR of the buildings?
In other words, it can be replaced with something else without disrupting their lives one bit.

Some building are having the cladding removed during the day, some are leaving the insulation behind, they're starting at the bottoms with small amounts of scaffolding and even cherry pickers.

Tonight's evacuations, 8:30pm-10pm! are something to do with gas pipes being in the communal areas after the renovations, something that's been mentioned a few times including from the one that burnt.
Renovations on social housing are often quite rough, bare pipes and electrical trunking all over the walls is quite common.