Fire in UK apartment building supposedly caused by oldrefrigerator that exploded

[cdev]

In the US, most, perhaps every tall building has a built in fire-friendly hose system called a standpipe and the bottom connection is placed where its easy for firefighters to get to it even if the building is on fire.

Is that common in the UK?

[Cerebus]

Sprinkler systems suck for appartment buildings.

Dying sucks more.

[Cerebus]

In the US, most, perhaps every tall building has a built in fire-friendly hose system called a standpipe and the bottom connection is placed where its easy for firefighters to get to it even if the building is on fire.

Is that common in the UK?

Called a dry riser in the UK, mandatory for buildings over 18m. Dry fallers are required for buildings with basement levels 10m or more deep.

[vodka]

And what is more fun to a bunch of teenagers then to activate the sprinkler system?

So that is a more  trouble politics and the security. i don't know if in you country exists the False Alarm crime or  order public disturbance . And like affects the civil responsability for the  fathers of the teenagers

[stj]

each foor will have a dry-riser outlet near the lift - inside a locked steel door.
the only people with keys are the council-maintenance people and firebrigade.

Not quite. Firstly, although the dry riser cabinets are locked (with a service key, not a 'proper' lock) they have breakable glass access panels.

sorry, but i lived in London flats - i could go take some foto's in the week if you want.
the risers have steel plate where the glass "should" be, and are locked with a yale door style lock and/or a 3-lever padlock.

[SeanB]

Do they still have the brass pipe connections for the lay flat hoses, the hoses and the brass fittings on the ends of said hose. Here hose reels are common, and the reel is made from steel, has a steel valve on it and a plastic nozzle end, because if it is made from brass or aluminium it basically will not survive the night, though you often find them being used as impromptu car washing hoses or to wash the assorted "you really do not want to know what this is" from the exterior stairs, landings and walls.

[Cerebus]

each foor will have a dry-riser outlet near the lift - inside a locked steel door.
the only people with keys are the council-maintenance people and firebrigade.

Not quite. Firstly, although the dry riser cabinets are locked (with a service key, not a 'proper' lock) they have breakable glass access panels.

sorry, but i lived in London flats - i could go take some foto's in the week if you want.
the risers have steel plate where the glass "should" be, and are locked with a yale door style lock and/or a 3-lever padlock.

I don't have a copy of BS 9990 (which the building regulations approved document B requires the cabinet to meet) to hand, but I believe that would fail to comply. If it's not breakable for access and it's got a lock that requires fiddling with a key (in smoke, heat etc) or bolt cutters than it's clearly not satisfactory. If you find ones that fit the description you've given I'd urge you to report it to the HSE or Fire Brigade; in the current climate I'd expect you to get taken very seriously.

[vodka]

Do they still have the brass pipe connections for the lay flat hoses, the hoses and the brass fittings on the ends of said hose. Here hose reels are common, and the reel is made from steel, has a steel valve on it and a plastic nozzle end, because if it is made from brass or aluminium it basically will not survive the night, though you often find them being used as impromptu car washing hoses or to wash the assorted "you really do not want to know what this is" from the exterior stairs, landings and walls.

If you think  that  the thieves will not steal  the steel reel or valve, you go raw. Here , they have robbed until  iron Sewer cover or window grilles.
 NO PASSA RES!!(DOESN'T PASS NOTHING!!)

[cdev]

Not the teenagers Ive known in cities. And I lived in multi-unit urban housing for most of my life. Kids who live in apartment buildings have to be quiet and well behaved.

(Note, the US doesn't have much public housing anymore, it did up till 1995 and WTO general services deal, but for that reason its largely been privatized now)

Ive never heard of an indoor false alarm in an urban apartment building. I'm not saying they dont happen, just that what you're describing sounds much much more like a made up stereotype than today's reality.

Quote from: nctnico on Today at 08:14:05

And what is more fun to a bunch of teenagers then to activate the sprinkler system? And how about (slightly) mentally disturbed inhabitants who set it off and soak the homes below? Sprinkler systems suck for appartment buildings.

[cdev]

There are some cities in the US (Ive never lived in an area this bad) where metal theft is common, but I sincerely doubt if fire hardware inside of apartment buildings would get stolen, ever.

Most of the times, when a fire hose is in a hallway, it has a glass door, which I am sure is not only so it can be gotten out without a key to be used in an emergency, its also so it would be immediately obvious if it wasn't there. Theft of them is not just uncommon, Ive never seen that happening. And Ive been in a hell of a lot of apartment buildings. i even lived very briefly (two weeks housesitting for somebody else) in an apartment building that had been taken over by its residents when the landlord defaulted on their taxes and utility bills. All of the fire equipment there was in good shape and the building passed fire inspections. It remained a tenant-owned building for another 20 years after that, so it must of had to have. It was a beautiful old "prewar" building, old buildings often are really well made. No plastic, just wood and metal.

That was in 1970s in New York City, and the neighborhood had lots of junkies, so there were desperate people.

Actually, come to think of it there was one fire violation I remember. One day my then girlfriend and I went out for the day and came back in the evening to find that a three wire, fairly robust extension cord had been installed in our apartment (which had power) that went out the window to the abandoned building next door. I dont remember seeing any light over there. But it was known that homeless people were squatting in that building.

We just left it there .

That was probably the most marginal neighborhood Ive ever lived in and it was actually a very livable area where people were friendly to one another. I never felt threatened there.


Quote from: SeanB on Today at 09:56:38

Do they still have the brass pipe connections for the lay flat hoses, the hoses and the brass fittings on the ends of said hose. Here hose reels are common, and the reel is made from steel, has a steel valve on it and a plastic nozzle end, because if it is made from brass or aluminium it basically will not survive the night, though you often find them being used as impromptu car washing hoses or to wash the assorted "you really do not want to know what this is" from the exterior stairs, landings and walls.

[StillTrying]

Gov. now saying the number of buildings that have failed the cladding fire tests is 60.
Translation: It's now about 300.

[cdev]

All they need to do is train two surveillance cameras on opposite sides of each building and tie them in to an instance of OpenCV that will immediately send an alarm 24/7 if flame is seen.

No need to evacuate anybody.

[stj]

oh they have the camera's - trust me.
all live-linked to the townhall basement stasi-scumbags and banks of harddrive-recording systems.
some councils even forward all footage to a remote "backup" monitoring center.
westminster has a "backup" in scotland!!

you would think they are guarding a bank vault, not just spying on people walking down the damned street.
and then they complain about funding shortages!!

Hammersmith council a couple of years ago, started a program to replace every camera with a HD one and the required backend upgrades.
and if you saw the motorised lense assembly's they have on many of them - they are the size of a beer-can!!!

that's where all council spending goes - that and street-lamps that scan your phone as you pass by!!!

[Monkeh]

 

[MK14]

All they need to do is train two surveillance cameras on opposite sides of each building and tie them in to an instance of OpenCV that will immediately send an alarm 24/7 if flame is seen.

No need to evacuate anybody.

So if the fire started at 4:00 AM precisely.
How long would it take a pensioner, who lives on the 24th floor and is in their 80's, who can't hear very well (maybe can't hear fire alarm too well), and walks extremely slowly. To get down 24 flights of stairs, which is rapidly filling with impossible to see through or breath, smoke and the temperatures are skyrocketing, due to the massive cladding/building fire ?

[vodka]

There are some cities in the US (Ive never lived in an area this bad) where metal theft is common, but I sincerely doubt if fire hardware inside of apartment buildings would get stolen, ever.

So you believe it, they have entered to apartment building only for robbing the knobs of the doors. There are cases, the thieves have taken the gas pipe of the community, provoking leakages

[vodka]

So if the fire started at 4:00 AM precisely.
How long would it take a pensioner, who lives on the 24th floor and is in their 80's, who can't hear very well (maybe can't hear fire alarm too well), and walks extremely slowly. To get down 24 flights of stairs, which is rapidly filling with impossible to see through or breath, smoke and the temperatures are skyrocketing, due to the massive cladding/building fire ?

So here  on Spain  is mandatory (CTE-DB-SI )that the building of this characteristics have an emergency lift or  for firefighters

[MK14]

So if the fire started at 4:00 AM precisely.
How long would it take a pensioner, who lives on the 24th floor and is in their 80's, who can't hear very well (maybe can't hear fire alarm too well), and walks extremely slowly. To get down 24 flights of stairs, which is rapidly filling with impossible to see through or breath, smoke and the temperatures are skyrocketing, due to the massive cladding/building fire ?

So here  on Spain  is mandatory (CTE-DB-SI )that the building of this characteristics have an emergency lift or  for firefighters

I'm not sure how that would work out. If an all rooms in the building fire started (so everyone needs to get out), and there are 600 people, who all would ideally like to use the lift to get out, at the same time.
Anyway, I don't think the UK has such regulations.

[Cerebus]

So if the fire started at 4:00 AM precisely.
How long would it take a pensioner, who lives on the 24th floor and is in their 80's, who can't hear very well (maybe can't hear fire alarm too well), and walks extremely slowly. To get down 24 flights of stairs, which is rapidly filling with impossible to see through or breath, smoke and the temperatures are skyrocketing, due to the massive cladding/building fire ?

So here  on Spain  is mandatory (CTE-DB-SI )that the building of this characteristics have an emergency lift or  for firefighters

I'm not sure how that would work out. If an all rooms in the building fire started (so everyone needs to get out), and there are 600 people, who all would ideally like to use the lift to get out, at the same time.
Anyway, I don't think the UK has such regulations.

It does. UK Building regulations approved document B section 18.2. What Vodka fails to make clear, although you can figure it out if you second guess him, is that he's taking about lifts for firefighting, not escape; which is what is addressed in the UK regulations I've cited, shafts and lifts for firefighting.

[cdev]

So, if they already have cameras that are on continuously, it should be simple to train them to recognize even a small flame and send a particularly urgent alarm that basically says this is TOP priority to put out, now.

Also, surveillance equipment is not a good use of funds. That money would be better invested in educating young people so there was a future for them and the community.

[cdev]

Robbing doorknobs? In old houses in Detroit typically what gets robbed is copper piping. Which often ends up tragically when perfectly good foreclosed houses that could have been sold and become an affordable home for somebody get flooded and become so moldy they become dangerous to be in and impossible to clean so a complete loss and have to be torn down.

[MK14]

It does. UK Building regulations approved document B section 18.2. What Vodka fails to make clear, although you can figure it out if you second guess him, is that he's taking about lifts for firefighting, not escape; which is what is addressed in the UK regulations I've cited, shafts and lifts for firefighting.

I did not know that. But I had heard there was provisions for the fire service. I just did not know the exact details.

The fireman would have breathing apparatus, as otherwise I guess that smoke and toxic fumes. Would make a lift a very dangerous, confined space, without them. In a very bad fire.

[cdev]

It was like that in New York City in the 70s and 80s too. So bad that cars would be broken into just for their lowly AM/FM radios. In order to prevent this, some people removed the radios from their cars and put signs in their windows saying "No Radio". A friend who lived on Vesey Street, told me that he had seen one of these cars completely trashed one day and a little sign, identical to the original one except for its wording, was left inside it, it simply said "Get One".

[Gyro]

Tis a sad world we live in. At least 150 people in Pakistan managed to cremate themselves today collecting fuel in pots and pans from an overturned tanker, phoning friends and relatives from neighboring villages so that they could join in. Then apparently someone lit a cigarette. 

It managed half a day on the BBC news main page today before being relegated to the world news page. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-40396036

No, I don't know what I'm trying to say either, maybe something to do with attitudes towards safety across the world or whatever. No politics involved, just human nature or desperation left to run its course.  It seemed that the event should at least be marked. As I said, it's a sad mixed up world. 

[nctnico]

Robbing doorknobs? In old houses in Detroit typically what gets robbed is copper piping. Which often ends up tragically when perfectly good foreclosed houses that could have been sold and become an affordable home for somebody get flooded and become so moldy they become dangerous to be in and impossible to clean so a complete loss and have to be torn down.

Build from wood I guess? I can't imagine a stone house being impossible to clean.