Fire in UK apartment building supposedly caused by oldrefrigerator that exploded

[cdev]

A few years ago I saw the testimony of a young man who lost one arm and one leg while trying to collect coal from a moving train car carrying it during the midst of North Korea's horrible famine. He was lucky to be alive. One of a great many tragic stories I heard watching the UN COI hearings. Its useful for keeping things in perspective. Nomatter how bad things here seem, they could be a LOT worse.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/CoIDPRK/Pages/PublicHearings.aspx

[electr_peter]

So if the fire started at 4:00 AM precisely.
How long would it take a pensioner, who lives on the 24th floor and is in their 80's, who can't hear very well (maybe can't hear fire alarm too well), and walks extremely slowly. To get down 24 flights of stairs, which is rapidly filling with impossible to see through or breath, smoke and the temperatures are skyrocketing, due to the massive cladding/building fire ?

So here  on Spain  is mandatory (CTE-DB-SI )that the building of this characteristics have an emergency lift or  for firefighters

I'm not sure how that would work out. If an all rooms in the building fire started (so everyone needs to get out), and there are 600 people, who all would ideally like to use the lift to get out, at the same time.
Anyway, I don't think the UK has such regulations.

It does. UK Building regulations approved document B section 18.2. What Vodka fails to make clear, although you can figure it out if you second guess him, is that he's taking about lifts for firefighting, not escape; which is what is addressed in the UK regulations I've cited, shafts and lifts for firefighting.

Lifts are not to be used in case of fire, only stairs. No special extra lifts are built for firefighting typically (too costly). However, newer lifts have special mode (accessed via special key or key combination or SW, etc.) for firefighting - it is "god mode" for lifts, so to speak. It has the highest priority, can go to any floor, can open doors at any height or lift location, etc. Similar to full manual service mode.

[cdev]

Yes, almost all houses in the US are built using wood. Stone is quite rare in newer construction here.

Concrete is commonly used in commercial buildings and in base slabs in areas where freezing of the ground is unusual. Cooler areas in the US usually have a basement constructed of cinder blocks which forms the foundation and then wood and more recently, composite materials. Some newer homes substitute metal for wood. Insulation has traditionally been fiberglass but many newer homes use spray in foam.

Robbing doorknobs? In old houses in Detroit typically what gets robbed is copper piping. Which often ends up tragically when perfectly good foreclosed houses that could have been sold and become an affordable home for somebody get flooded and become so moldy they become dangerous to be in and impossible to clean so a complete loss and have to be torn down.

Build from wood I guess? I can't imagine a stone house being impossible to clean.

[cdev]

Actually, it is possible to save the core structure, what needs to be done is all the wallboard and flooring need to be removed, everything thats not solid wood. (once composites get wet they are never the same again, they lose most of their structural strength and also the out gas formaldehyde) Then the bare timbers are blasted with dry ice at high pressure which removes the entire outer layer and its immediately vacuumed up. That part is very fast, and its quite a sight to behold. It leaves even old wood looking new again. The vacuum exhausts outside.  (It must have a HEPA filter so it doesn't have the effect of poisoning people nearby.)

Workers also need to wear full mask HEPA (p-100) filtration that covers the eyes nose and mouth completely and gloves. Macrocyclic trichothecenes and many other mycotoxins are really toxic.

So basically everything except for the frame has to be replaced, and it has to be scoured, literally. the blasting process is so aggressive it removes dry rot. If any timbers are rotten, they get replaced. They cant just paint over mold. If they do that they will have a sick building that makes everybody who lives in it ill, probably for many lifetimes.

[Zero999]

Tis a sad world we live in. At least 150 people in Pakistan managed to cremate themselves today collecting fuel in pots and pans from an overturned tanker, phoning friends and relatives from neighboring villages so that they could join in. Then apparently someone lit a cigarette. 

It managed half a day on the BBC news main page today before being relegated to the world news page. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-40396036

No, I don't know what I'm trying to say either, maybe something to do with attitudes towards safety across the world or whatever. No politics involved, just human nature or desperation left to run its course.  It seemed that the event should at least be marked. As I said, it's a sad mixed up world. 

The sad thing is few people here care: they deserved it because the Paki thieves and idiots deserved to die for steeling fuel whilst smoking. In reality they were poor, only one person lit the cigarette and many of the people killed were probably innocent bystanders.

[Yansi]

If they can handle mobile phones, shouldn't they be smart enough not to light cigarettes when handling open fuel?

[BradC]

So, if they already have cameras that are on continuously, it should be simple to train them to recognize even a small flame and send a particularly urgent alarm that basically says this is TOP priority to put out, now.

You keep talking about CCTV cameras and fire detection. Have you ever actually used this stuff? Hint, it's not as easy, nor reliable as you seem to think it might be.

[AndyC_772]

Gov. now saying the number of buildings that have failed the cladding fire tests is 60.
Translation: It's now about 300.

Makes you wonder about the nature of the test they're now conducting, and how it compares to any testing that was done on these materials beforehand.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if:

- the original test specified that a material must not support a flame for more than X amount of time after a source of ignition Y is held under a sample of size Z and then removed (eg. similar to the tests used to classify engineering materials to UL 94V-0 and similar), but:

- the new test is: "never mind quantitative testing; could this sample possibly catch fire?"

I can virtually guarantee that the outcome of the investigation will not be "everyone involved complied with applicable regulations; however, these may now need to be reviewed in the light of this incident".

Instead, the questions asked will be "could your organisation possibly have done more to prevent this type of incident from occurring" - to which it's impossible to ever definitively answer "no".

[grumpydoc]

Makes you wonder about the nature of the test they're now conducting, and how it compares to any testing that was done on these materials beforehand.

AIUI samples are failing current Buidings Regs so it should be easy enough to check what testing is required in the current legislation.

The interesting questions are

1. Will the government require existing installations be brought into line with the current regulations - I suspect that the answer will be a resounding yes given the scale of the disaster than befell Grenfell Tower.

2. Were the installations in line with the regulations when they were installed - if not then heads really ought to roll and I hope that the rush to test and remove cladding does not make this determination impossible.

[Cerebus]

If they can handle mobile phones, shouldn't they be smart enough not to light cigarettes when handling open fuel?

Smokers tend to do the whole lighting up and smoking thing on auto-pilot if there's something else to occupy their attention.

Back when I used to smoke I once absent-mindedly lit up while sitting at my desk in a non-smoking office. I was simply so absorbed in the task in front of me that I was completely unaware that I had decided to light a cigarette, let alone that I was doing it somewhere inappropriate.

[cdev]

Like Kim Jong-Un seems to do while inspecting solid fuel missile launching sites...

The staff always look a bit uncomfortable.

[SilverSolder]

Perhaps slightly off topic but still very related:   Where would you place fire extinguishers in your home, for best effect...   and how many of them?

[stj]

extinguishers go in the hallways.
prefereably co2 or powder - unless you dont have electricity in your house! 

as for the outcome of the "investigation", same old shit - first it will take as long as possible until most people forget.
then it will be "specific blame cannot be applied"(because it's our fault), "lessons will be learned"(no they wont), "changes will be made"(no they wont)
and that will be all you hear.
 
it's always the same with "public"(government) enquiry's - they are just a coverup tecnique.

[Gyro]

I just automatically assumed that the cladding came from [EDIT: was manufactured by] a UK company, but no it isn't.... 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40409981

... and saying they are stopping worldwide sales. There could be a lot more testing going to be happening!

Edit: The story has padded out a bit now:

The Manufacturers (Arconic US) have issued a fresh statement:

In a fresh statement, the firm said it had stopped sales of Reynobond PE for tall buildings, citing concerns about the "inconsistency of building codes across the world".

Following the Grenfell Tower fire, issues have arisen "regarding code compliance of cladding systems", it added.

[vodka]

It does. UK Building regulations approved document B section 18.2. What Vodka fails to make clear, although you can figure it out if you second guess him, is that he's taking about lifts for firefighting, not escape; which is what is addressed in the UK regulations I've cited, shafts and lifts for firefighting.

I am refering to the case exposed by MK14 about old men with reduce movity. This man would have to move  to refuge  or emergency stairs( zone isolated of the common zones with a anti-flame doors ) where the old man will wait to the arrived the firefighters by the emergency lift and being evacuated. That is the spirit of the CTE-DB-SI .  https://www.codigotecnico.org/index.php/menu-seguridad-caso-incendio.html

Lifts are not to be used in case of fire, only stairs. No special extra lifts are built for firefighting typically (too costly). However, newer lifts have special mode (accessed via special key or key combination or SW, etc.) for firefighting - it is "god mode" for lifts, so to speak. It has the highest priority, can go to any floor, can open doors at any height or lift location, etc. Similar to full manual service mode.

Careful ,the  main stairs might be a trap such danger as the  normal lift if the fire is on down-stairs (smokestack effect).
electr_peter will be very expensive  but the building code Spanish is fine clear and it is compulsory cumpliment for that  the profesional colleges will aprove the project(Over 28m for general pupose, over 15 m for use hospitalary).




 

[Zero999]

The Manufacturers (Arconic US) have issued a fresh statement:

LOL I read that as Arsonic the first time. I had to read it again.

Anyway, I hope the council sue their arses.

[Gyro]

Just to be clear I wasn't singling them out as a US company, I had been under the impression that it was a UK company that had managed to get the contract to supply various local councils (in much the same fashion as a double glazing company).

What I suddenly understand is that this is an international company, selling worldwide. That puts a whole new angle on things - what government is going to risk the backlash and fallout from not doing something about a problem that is known to have caused a devastating fire in a UK Tower block?

[floobydust]

The cladding should first be approved for use in the country/municipality. I did not see Britain on the approvals list, let alone a height limitation.

Some loophole or crook allowed it to be used, and Alcoa seems happy to sell it anywhere for anything. They aren't liable for misapplication of their products.

Second, after reno's an inspector checks the work meets building code and should have noticed the cladding's approvals/use are deficient.
The Fire Brigade seems to have not looked it over either.

I see this kind of failure of approvals all the time - in building construction, in engineering. I've seen it cause explosions (damn shorted mosfet).
In North America "the Authority having Jurisdiction" is to catch these mistakes.

[cdev]

No, I was just speculating, Ive never used regular non-thermal or thermal imaging for flame detection, and would very much like to hear your experiences using whatever you used for flame detection.


Sorry if I sounded snotty..  

No I have not done it! Seems like a logical approach though, if the goal is preventing more incidents like Grenfell. This is science and burning plastic is scary but "it isnt rocket science" in that this is a totally solvable problem and shouldn't be disruptive of people's lives. Its not the inhabitants fault the councils in their rush to make the buildings look newer, screwed up badly on fire safety.

Quote from: cdev on Yesterday at 13:44:54

So, if they already have cameras that are on continuously, it should be simple to train them to recognize even a small flame and send a particularly urgent alarm that basically says this is TOP priority to put out, now.

You keep talking about CCTV cameras and fire detection. Have you ever actually used this stuff? Hint, it's not as easy, nor reliable as you seem to think it might be.

[cdev]

I think the big question is likely whether it was legal to use on tall buildings in the UK at the time it was put there.

[nctnico]

The UK (and US) governments are both working against people in that they both support a new kind of law called "ISDS" which will put a financial burden on governments if they change laws affecting the conditions of operation for multinational companies.

That is a very bad idea. Fortunately the EU seems to be against these kind of laws for now.

[cdev]

Nctnico, no, unfortunately not. The EU came up with a slightly renamed "alternative" ISDS which is basically the same thing and has the same problems.

(I'm sorry, I edited my original post!)

Governments being charged the cost of safety regulation when thats their job, and its companies jobs to make sure they are selling safe products. Corporations are trying to pin, for example, the huge cost of shifting away from activities and chemicals costs onto countries that want to regulate them, (good link to info) and setting up panels that require all 40+ countries agree on things, a move that will stifle much needed regulation.  (similar deals already or potentially preempt US states rights to regulate toxic products and activities)

[Lord of nothing]

there are some information in german who show the anger of Styrofoam.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o34slPoa-8[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bZVTGWCjJI[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kI21F17wYY[/video]

[abraxa]

extinguishers go in the hallways.
prefereably co2 or powder - unless you dont have electricity in your house! 

Careful with powder-based extinguishers, though. That powder is so extremely fine that it will go into every corner of the apartment/house and because it's usually a salt, it will become very corrosive since the air provides moisture. In the process, it also becomes hard like rock. I've only ever seen CO2 or foam extinguishers in computer labs - the powder would immediately render all computers in the room broken beyond repair. Same goes for car engines, by the way.

For these reasons, I strongly suggest using CO2- and/or foam-based extinguishers.

[helius]

Well I just found something quite eerie. See this doc on the prefab housing disaster, note at 44:00: Q: "Do you think the cladding systems being used to repair system-built housing pose a fire risk?" A: "Yes."
https://youtu.be/Ch5VorymiL4