Fire in UK apartment building supposedly caused by oldrefrigerator that exploded

[BradC]

But explosions due to isobutane domestic fridges have happened before.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/howaboutthat/6120297/Exploding-fridges-ozone-friendly-gas-theory-for-mystery-blasts.html

I'll get into this argument when you can quote an article that is more than vague speculation and has some actual evidence, let alone evidence of consequential damage outside of a damaged appliance. Go on. Find one that started a fire (which is what we are actually talking about here).

Plenty of fires started by malfunctioning fridge electrics. Compressors, defrost heaters, wiring... go on. How many started by an ignited refrigerant leak?

[BradC]

There really aren't, though! R600a is a *really* good refrigerant! So good that I seriously considered converting my last car from R134a to R600a (isobutane) to help boost the output of the AC. (In the end, I didn't. Though it's pretty easy to do and is becoming popular in with some car models that have undersized AC systems.)

Don't go trying that timb. It won't work well at *all*. r600a requires a hugely increased compressor displacement to get the same refrigerating effect and isn't *close* to a drop-in for r134a. Now a 60/40 mix of R290/R600a (Propane/Iso-Butane) is a pretty close drop in for R12 and will mostly do a credible job in a r134a system is a closer mix. But r600a alone will leave you very disappointed.

If you want to get funky, then it's about a 66/34 mix for an r134a drop-in. You want a slightly higher pressure for 134a or you'll need to adjust your pressure switches / re-set the calibration in your variable displacement compressor, and that's not worth contemplating.

[timb]

There will be way more than a single can. Look at the name plate of the fridge. Should be right there. Refrigerant type including charge weight.

There are plenty of perfectly good non-flammable refrigerants which don't deplete the ozone layer, so it makes sense to use them over a dangerous flammable gas.

There really aren't, though! R600a is a *really* good refrigerant! So good that I seriously considered converting my last car from R134a to R600a (isobutane) to help boost the output of the AC. (In the end, I didn't. Though it's pretty easy to do and is becoming popular in with some car models that have undersized AC systems.)

You've got your quotes really FSCK'd up there Tim.

Someone will be along in a minute to tell you that using R600a will turn your car into a bomb (nicely ignoring the 100 litres or so of refined rock blood that you'll be carrying around anyway).

Whoops, sorry about that! Fixed. (I must have deleted a bracket in the nested quote tags!)

And yeah, I ran into that argument on a forum for my model car. The first replies were people telling me the car would explode if I ever crashed. My reply was pretty much the same as yours: It's not like I'm not already carrying around 10 gallons of petroleum and another gallon of mineral oil, plus pounds of natural rubber. All very good fuels for a fire. A few hundred grams of a gas that will quickly either burn off or dissipate isn't much of a problem at that point.

[timb]

There really aren't, though! R600a is a *really* good refrigerant! So good that I seriously considered converting my last car from R134a to R600a (isobutane) to help boost the output of the AC. (In the end, I didn't. Though it's pretty easy to do and is becoming popular in with some car models that have undersized AC systems.)

Don't go trying that timb. It won't work well at *all*. r600a requires a hugely increased compressor displacement to get the same refrigerating effect and isn't *close* to a drop-in for r134a. Now a 60/40 mix of R290/R600a (Propane/Iso-Butane) is a pretty close drop in for R12 and will mostly do a credible job in a r134a system is a closer mix. But r600a alone will leave you very disappointed.

If you want to get funky, then it's about a 66/34 mix for an r134a drop-in. You want a slightly higher pressure for 134a or you'll need to adjust your pressure switches / re-set the calibration in your variable displacement compressor, and that's not worth contemplating.

No, you're exactly right. It was propane (or a mix thereof), not straight isobutane that I was considering. It's been like 10 years since I looked into it, but as soon as you said propane it all came back.

I did a bunch of research into, but in the end determined it was more trouble than it was worth. I determined the biggest problem was that the interior of the car was black, so on a hot summer day it would spend 6 hours soaking up heat from the sun and the A/C just couldn't cope with it. I ended up getting a high quality tint done on the windows and bought a custom fit foil sunscreen to cover the windshield when parked. Then I traded with a friend for a medium sized tank of R134a, a set of gauges and a vacuum pump and re-pressurized the system myself. Those three things helped out tremendously. Damn, I miss that car.

[Zero999]

There will be way more than a single can. Look at the name plate of the fridge. Should be right there. Refrigerant type including charge weight.

Just looked at the manual for my 345 litre (12 and a bit cubic feet) capacity fridge/freezer, which comes in two versions according to market. For the version that uses R600a (isobutane) it has a charge of 65g, for the version that uses R134a (Tetrafluoroethane) it uses 155g. I have a can of "Clipper" butane for refilling lighters, its content is 170g (that's 300ml by volume).

So, it's not "way more than a single can", it's less than 1/2 a can.

But your can of lighter fluid isn't supposed to be used around electrical switches and relays, where there will be arcing. If you read the can you'll probably find it advises keeping in a cool place, away from sources of ignition and only use it in a well ventilated area.

There are plenty of perfectly good non-flammable refrigerants which don't deplete the ozone layer, so it makes sense to use them over a dangerous flammable gas.

And what's that got to do with me clarifying how much refrigerant is actually used? 

Nothing to do with your comment but the topic of the thread! Read through to the part where the use of flammable refrigerants was first raised.

But explosions due to isobutane domestic fridges have happened before.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/howaboutthat/6120297/Exploding-fridges-ozone-friendly-gas-theory-for-mystery-blasts.html

I'll get into this argument when you can quote an article that is more than vague speculation and has some actual evidence, let alone evidence of consequential damage outside of a damaged appliance. Go on. Find one that started a fire (which is what we are actually talking about here).

Plenty of fires started by malfunctioning fridge electrics. Compressors, defrost heaters, wiring... go on. How many started by an ignited refrigerant leak?

You are correct that a source of ignition is required but that's the same with any flammable substance. Old refrigerants acted as fire retardants but the new ones are accelerants. How much potential chemical energy is there in a fridge charged with isobutane? More than enough to cause a dangerous explosion.

Now I live in a house supplied by natural gas so you could say I'm being irrational. However, the gas supplied to my home has an odour added. If I smell gas, I can open the windows and turn off the gas at the main valve. However, if my refrigerator develops a gas leak, I won't know about it because isobutane isn't that smelly. All would take is for me to open the fridge door or my boiler to light and bang.

It's possible that the fire in the London apartment building was accelerated by a flammable refrigerant but it's not clear yet.

[Cerebus]

And what's that got to do with me clarifying how much refrigerant is actually used? 

Nothing to do with your comment but the topic of the thread! Read through to the part where the use of flammable refrigerants was first raised.

I'm quite cognisant of the latter, I just don't understand why you quoted me instead of either quoting something relevant, or just adding a reply without a quote.

[langwadt]

There will be way more than a single can. Look at the name plate of the fridge. Should be right there. Refrigerant type including charge weight.

Refrigerant limits are designed to ensure the lower flammability limits (LFL) are not reached in any practical room size in the event of a catastrophic discharge.

You will find the implementation of hydrocarbon refrigerants have had two effects.

A) The insistence on charge sizes small enough to ensure a discharge is below explosive levels has triggered a mass of research into more efficient evaporators and condensers which manage a lower refrigerant mass to prevent a refrigerant fueled explosion.

B) The resulting efficiency increase in both HC and HFC refrigeration units.

The charge level in your average fridge is *way* below what is required to provide an explosive (and even mostly flammable) environment in your average kitchen space.

HC appliances also have strict regulation around switches and arcing, so you can strike that off your hysteria list while you're there.

and  the gas in a refrigerator is in an hermetically closed system soldered together, a can of lighter gas has a valve that is cheap enough to throw out after use

[langwadt]

There are plenty of perfectly good non-flammable refrigerants which don't deplete the ozone layer, so it makes sense to use them over a dangerous flammable gas.

There really aren't, though! R600a is a *really* good refrigerant! You know, I actually considered converting my last car from R134a to propane to help boost the output of the AC. (In the end, I didn't. Though it's pretty easy to do and is becoming popular in with some car models that have undersized AC systems.)

I believe that to use something like R600a in a car it must have a heat exchanger, I'm guessing the rational is that a system leaking in the
small confined space of a car would be bad

[NiHaoMike]

R152a (commonly found in duster cans) has been used as an alternative to R134a that has about 1/10 the GWP and slightly higher efficiency for A/C applications.

R600a is OK for above zero refrigeration but not very good for below zero. R290 and R1270 (and mixtures containing them such as R433b) do well to -40 or so, and R410a will go below -60 pretty easily.

Not sure how old the refrigerator in question is, but if it's really old, it could be using R40 or R717, both of which are flammable (especially the first) and very toxic. (Some used R764, although that's not flammable, just highly toxic.) After that, it's pretty much all R12, R22, or R134a. Refrigerators using R600a, R290, or R1270 haven't shown up until recently.

[stj]

your distracting yourselves.

anyway, the fire brigade arent idiots, they would not let a fire go through a window un-noticed.

[tronde]

your distracting yourselves.

anyway, the fire brigade arent idiots, they would not let a fire go through a window un-noticed.

Seems like they did so, this time.

Firefighters had put out the initial fridge fire at Grenfell Tower and were leaving the building when the blaze suddenly flared up, it has emerged.

Crews believed they had put out the fire at the London high-rise and were astonished to see flames rising up the side of the building, new reports have claimed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/20/grenfell-tower-firefighters-put-fridge-blaze-just-leaving-flats/

[Zero999]

your distracting yourselves.

With what? The safety and flammability of modern refrigerators is something which needs to be investigated. The refrigerant is only part of it. The flammability of the thermal insulation foam, arcing due to switches and relays, defrost heaters and thermal protection are all factors.

The flammability off the cladding might have allowed the fire to spread as it did, but if the fridge wasn't faulty and didn't contain flammable materials, then it wouldn't have happened in the first place.

I hope flammable refrigerants aren't used in building air conditioners, unless the entire refrigeration unit is outside, behind a decent blast-resistant firewall.

Seems like they did so, this time.

Firefighters had put out the initial fridge fire at Grenfell Tower and were leaving the building when the blaze suddenly flared up, it has emerged.

Crews believed they had put out the fire at the London high-rise and were astonished to see flames rising up the side of the building, new reports have claimed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/20/grenfell-tower-firefighters-put-fridge-blaze-just-leaving-flats/

It's highly likely the fire was still burning, unnoticed, inside the cladding and given that high rise flats have been designed for many years to prevent the spread of fire from one apartment to another, it was reasonable to assume that the fire has been fully extinguished.

[stj]

it's also possible that their where 2 seperate fires.
one may even have been cover for the second - comercial/industrial arson is unfortunatly very common thanks to property values!

[Gyro]

Yeah, I think that's a leap too far. 

I think, given the sensitivities involved, suggesting arson is probably a good way of closing this thread!

[stj]

a leap too far?
near my previous address, someone arson'ed a 3 story retail outlet with flats above it because it was a listed building!

some people dont put lives above money.

[StillTrying]

Firefighters had put out the initial fridge fire at Grenfell Tower and were leaving the building when the blaze suddenly flared up, it has emerged.

Crews believed they had put out the fire at the London high-rise and were astonished to see flames rising up the side of the building, new reports have claimed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/20/grenfell-tower-firefighters-put-fridge-blaze-just-leaving-flats/

I seem to remember someone (must have been a fireman ?) being TV interviewed weeks ago, saying that they couldn't understand why it was now being described as a major fire on their radios, while they were in the flat after the fire was put out.
But it doesn't make much sense that they didn't check or see what was happening outside the broken window, checking a fire hasn't escaped into a void is what they'd normally do.

[stj]

if the flames had effected the window they would have inspected it to make sure it wouldnt fall out on anybody.
i'v personally seen them do that.
even more so on a plastic framed window!

[Zero999]

Firefighters had put out the initial fridge fire at Grenfell Tower and were leaving the building when the blaze suddenly flared up, it has emerged.

Crews believed they had put out the fire at the London high-rise and were astonished to see flames rising up the side of the building, new reports have claimed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/20/grenfell-tower-firefighters-put-fridge-blaze-just-leaving-flats/

I seem to remember someone (must have been a fireman ?) being TV interviewed weeks ago, saying that they couldn't understand why it was now being described as a major fire on their radios, while they were in the flat after the fire was put out.
But it doesn't make much sense that they didn't check or see what was happening outside the broken window, checking a fire hasn't escaped into a void is what they'd normally do.

The trouble is, voids are often inaccessible by their nature. I believe the cladding used consisted of two pieces of aluminium, with some flammable insulation in between. It's possible the insulation could have been burning away, unnoticed inside the cladding, spreading the fire and by the time the fire fighters were aware of this, it was too late.

if the flames had effected the window they would have inspected it to make sure it wouldnt fall out on anybody.
i'v personally seen them do that.
even more so on a plastic framed window!

It would be crazy for them to go round a huge building, securing every bit of burnt debris which might fall and hurt someone. They normally fence off the area outside a burnt out building to stop people from being in an area where there's likely to be falling debris.

[stj]

the stuff under the cladding plates was foil-backed fiberglass wool.
i saw it.

[AndyC_772]

How does that burn, then?

[stj]

i dont think it does - the bits all over the car park werent burned that's for sure.

[StillTrying]

All of the bits I saw tested on TV burst into some sort of flame instantly. Once the aluminum panels get hot the polywhatsit layers bubble out at the edges and burst into flame.

https://www.channel4.com/news/high-rise-buildings-fail-fire-safety-tests

[nctnico]

i dont think it does - the bits all over the car park werent burned that's for sure.

Ofcourse, but the cladding itself (which is/was over the insulating material) burned.

[helius]

Fiberglass wool doesn't have a sufficiently high R-class as the foamed polymers do. So it requires a greater quantity of material for the same insulation performance. These cladding systems use polyurethane foams which are flammable.

[zl2wrw]

Just looked at the manual for my 345 litre (12 and a bit cubic feet) capacity fridge/freezer, which comes in two versions according to market. For the version that uses R600a (isobutane) it has a charge of 65g, for the version that uses R134a (Tetrafluoroethane) it uses 155g. [SNIP]

Liquid R600a is less dense than liquid R134a (2.51 kg/m3 vs 4.25 kg/m3), so basically speaking, you don't need as much mass of it to get the same refrigerating effect (but you do need a compressor with a larger "swept volume" / "gas flow rate").