Flat speakers in kitchen ceiling - driver size?

[gildasd]

Some of you have a lot of sound knowledge, so here goes...

I am renovating my house (hence no electronics projects lately) and I would like to fit self made speakers flush with the double ceiling while I am at it.
My idea is use the two “speaker out” at the rear of the TV. No amplification.
The vertical void space is about 7cm, 10cm max driver depth, the space between joists 60cm.
The ceiling is plasterboard, 18mm OSB, 70mm void, concrete.

As for the intended use, TV and radio while cooking. So no HiFi pretensions.
I was thinking of a single full range driver per speaker, of the kind teen drivers retrofit in their rustbuckets.

Any ideas on the driver size, speaker volume, port or batten to make this sound no worse than a car door would be appreciated! No need to go too much in detail!

[Halcyon]

Honestly, for your purposes, I think you'd be happy with just some standard 6.5" or 8" speakers they use in conference rooms and throw a little amplifier box up there as well. They aren't expensive and will give you decent sound and volume.

[gildasd]

Yes, but...

The wife wants them flush with the ceiling as not to distract from the designer lamp over the island...

Making the enclosures is no problem for me.

Edit:
That being said, I could get said speakers, measure the volume, take them apart and fit them in a rectangular enclosure.

[janoc]

I probably wouldn't want to put speakers into the ceiling - you get all sorts of greasy crap in there over time in a kitchen (hot air rises, along with it greasy fumes from the stove, even if there is fume extractor in place). Better find a different place for it.

[b_force]

Tons of ideas, I will send a PM (in Dutch?)

[gildasd]

I probably wouldn't want to put speakers into the ceiling - you get all sorts of greasy crap in there over time in a kitchen (hot air rises, along with it greasy fumes from the stove, even if there is fume extractor in place). Better find a different place for it.

This is an open plane kitchen / dining room.
The speakers will be over the central island, about 2.5m away from the vertical of the stove.
The stove has a full size hood. There is also a 12m3 per minute permanent extraction.
And we don’t do crazy fry ups every day...
All to say that, the grease problem has been considered and is of no concern.

[gildasd]

Tons of ideas, I will send a PM (in Dutch?)

I speak English, French, Spanish and incoherent Dutch babble that impresses the locals...

[james_s]

You can buy speakers specifically designed for flush mounting in walls and ceilings. If you end up needing amplification I've used some of those class D amp boards you can get for a few dollars on ebay and they work quite well. Regarding driver size, generally you want the largest you have room for.

[gildasd]

You can buy speakers specifically designed for flush mounting in walls and ceilings. If you end up needing amplification I've used some of those class D amp boards you can get for a few dollars on ebay and they work quite well. Regarding driver size, generally you want the largest you have room for.

Yes but...
I’d rather make my enclosures, as my void space is rather reduced...
I was leaning towards 6inch drivers, but not really sure that is ideal.
Those D amps are actually a real god idea to match the output of the TV to whatever driver I can chose...

[b_force]

Tons of ideas, I will send a PM (in Dutch?)

I speak English, French, Spanish and incoherent Dutch babble that impresses the locals...

hahaha
Well with Belgians you never know from which part they are. 

But yes there are even water proof speakers for ceilings.
Hooking them up with a Class-D amp is fine, ideally you also need some kind of filtering.

[gildasd]

Tons of ideas, I will send a PM (in Dutch?)

I speak English, French, Spanish and incoherent Dutch babble that impresses the locals...

hahaha
Well with Belgians you never know from which part they are. 

But yes there are even water proof speakers for ceilings.
Hooking them up with a Class-D amp is fine, ideally you also need some kind of filtering.

A long time ago, in another life, I helped a friend install JBL speakers on a concert truck that could withstand direct impacts from filled vodka bottles... my requirements are less extreme!

I am leaning toward a simple single driver ported design. The port being curved PVC piping that is not 50mm sewage pipe, no sir.

[b_force]

Tons of ideas, I will send a PM (in Dutch?)

I speak English, French, Spanish and incoherent Dutch babble that impresses the locals...

hahaha
Well with Belgians you never know from which part they are. 

But yes there are even water proof speakers for ceilings.
Hooking them up with a Class-D amp is fine, ideally you also need some kind of filtering.

A long time ago, in another life, I helped a friend install JBL speakers on a concert truck that could withstand direct impacts from filled vodka bottles... my requirements are less extreme!

I am leaning toward a simple single driver ported design. The port being curved PVC piping that is not 50mm sewage pipe, no sir.

Totally forgot about this, but you can also use car-speakers or PA-speakers.
Not all of them have a nice front basket, but you can buy these separate.
Mounting in the sealing is actually not as bad as people think.

Anyway, I will have a look in my huge archive
My only question is, how loud do you listen to music?
(what is the SPL)
And what is the budget?

[gildasd]

This is for my wife, so if she can hear Sia above the kitchen noise, she is happy.

I intend to use car speaker as they are cheap and robust.

I could even buy two each time, remove the magnet of one, and make an radiator so to seal the box from whatever little grease or birds want to go in there.

[b_force]

This is for my wife, so if she can hear Sia above the kitchen noise, she is happy.

I intend to use car speaker as they are cheap and robust.

I could even buy two each time, remove the magnet of one, and make an radiator so to seal the box from whatever little grease or birds want to go in there.

Just removing magnets and hoping that the specs are fine unfortunately doesn't work most of the time.
But using a passive radiator isn't a bad idea.
Maybe you can even just go for a closed box. If it's just for some "on the background kitchen music"
What is cheap? 10 euro a piece, 30 euro a piece?

[Zero999]

There are plenty of ceiling mound speakers available, which need no enclosure. Cut a hole in the ceiling and fit the speaker inside it.

What's your budget?

http://cpc.farnell.com/pulse/51-881/ceiling-speaker-6-1-2-di-polar/dp/LS02798?st=ceiling%20speaker
https://www.monacor.com/products/pa-technology/speakers-/flush-mount-speakers/low-impedance/spe-158-ws/

It's also possible to use 100V speakers with a standard amplifier designed for 4Ω or 8Ω speakers. A 100V speaker will just be an ordinary 8Ω speaker with a transformer which can be bypassed is you're using an amplifier designed for 8Ω speakers or add a 100V transformer to the amplifier.

[gildasd]

There are plenty of ceiling mound speakers available, which need no enclosure. Cut a hole in the ceiling and fit the speaker inside it.

What's your budget?

http://cpc.farnell.com/pulse/51-881/ceiling-speaker-6-1-2-di-polar/dp/LS02798?st=ceiling%20speaker
https://www.monacor.com/products/pa-technology/speakers-/flush-mount-speakers/low-impedance/spe-158-ws/

It's also possible to use 100V speakers with a standard amplifier designed for 4Ω or 8Ω speakers. A 100V speaker will just be an ordinary 8Ω speaker with a transformer which can be bypassed is you're using an amplifier designed for 8Ω speakers or add a 100V transformer to the amplifier.

I had found that Monacor from another vendor, it can use the TV’s speaker out with no amplification and it’s stack height is perfect. So it fits my needs.
My problem is what are the design parameters for the enclosure, namely volume and type.
I have made enclosures for others in the past, but never did the calculations or design myself...
So this is perfect small project to tip my toes in, as I have bigger ambitions for the TV room later on.

[gildasd]

This is for my wife, so if she can hear Sia above the kitchen noise, she is happy.

I intend to use car speaker as they are cheap and robust.

I could even buy two each time, remove the magnet of one, and make an radiator so to seal the box from whatever little grease or birds want to go in there.

Just removing magnets and hoping that the specs are fine unfortunately doesn't work most of the time.
But using a passive radiator isn't a bad idea.
Maybe you can even just go for a closed box. If it's just for some "on the background kitchen music"
What is cheap? 10 euro a piece, 30 euro a piece?

I think 30 euros-ish per driver is optimal.
Power? I think most TV have 10 to 20W speaker out.

Edit, man, a ported design is complicated to calculate! http://www.mh-audio.nl/ReflexBoxCalculator.asp

[Halcyon]

Yes, but...

The wife wants them flush with the ceiling as not to distract from the designer lamp over the island...

Making the enclosures is no problem for me.

Edit:
That being said, I could get said speakers, measure the volume, take them apart and fit them in a rectangular enclosure.

Conference room speakers are generally flush-mounted in the ceiling and no need for additional enclosures. The small amp also sits inside the roof cavity (make sure you put it somewhere you can easily access later if required).

I have no experience with this company, but here are some examples: https://www.conferenceroomav.com/Speakers-c/Ceiling_Speakers

[Zero999]

There are plenty of ceiling mound speakers available, which need no enclosure. Cut a hole in the ceiling and fit the speaker inside it.

What's your budget?

http://cpc.farnell.com/pulse/51-881/ceiling-speaker-6-1-2-di-polar/dp/LS02798?st=ceiling%20speaker
https://www.monacor.com/products/pa-technology/speakers-/flush-mount-speakers/low-impedance/spe-158-ws/

It's also possible to use 100V speakers with a standard amplifier designed for 4Ω or 8Ω speakers. A 100V speaker will just be an ordinary 8Ω speaker with a transformer which can be bypassed is you're using an amplifier designed for 8Ω speakers or add a 100V transformer to the amplifier.

I had found that Monacor from another vendor, it can use the TV’s speaker out with no amplification and it’s stack height is perfect. So it fits my needs.
My problem is what are the design parameters for the enclosure, namely volume and type.
I have made enclosures for others in the past, but never did the calculations or design myself...
So this is perfect small project to tip my toes in, as I have bigger ambitions for the TV room later on.

You don't need an enclosure, just mount the speaker in the ceiling. The speaker will not be designed for use with an enclosure, so it's more likely to sound better without one.

[gildasd]

There are plenty of ceiling mound speakers available, which need no enclosure. Cut a hole in the ceiling and fit the speaker inside it.

What's your budget?

http://cpc.farnell.com/pulse/51-881/ceiling-speaker-6-1-2-di-polar/dp/LS02798?st=ceiling%20speaker
https://www.monacor.com/products/pa-technology/speakers-/flush-mount-speakers/low-impedance/spe-158-ws/

It's also possible to use 100V speakers with a standard amplifier designed for 4Ω or 8Ω speakers. A 100V speaker will just be an ordinary 8Ω speaker with a transformer which can be bypassed is you're using an amplifier designed for 8Ω speakers or add a 100V transformer to the amplifier.

I had found that Monacor from another vendor, it can use the TV’s speaker out with no amplification and it’s stack height is perfect. So it fits my needs.
My problem is what are the design parameters for the enclosure, namely volume and type.
I have made enclosures for others in the past, but never did the calculations or design myself...
So this is perfect small project to tip my toes in, as I have bigger ambitions for the TV room later on.

You don't need an enclosure, just mount the speaker in the ceiling. The speaker will not be designed for use with an enclosure, so it's more likely to sound better without one.

Ok, then!
If I need to amplify, i’ll do it behind the TV as having non lighting “things” in the ceiling complicates the inspection process/rule application.

[Zero999]

There are plenty of ceiling mound speakers available, which need no enclosure. Cut a hole in the ceiling and fit the speaker inside it.

What's your budget?

http://cpc.farnell.com/pulse/51-881/ceiling-speaker-6-1-2-di-polar/dp/LS02798?st=ceiling%20speaker
https://www.monacor.com/products/pa-technology/speakers-/flush-mount-speakers/low-impedance/spe-158-ws/

It's also possible to use 100V speakers with a standard amplifier designed for 4Ω or 8Ω speakers. A 100V speaker will just be an ordinary 8Ω speaker with a transformer which can be bypassed is you're using an amplifier designed for 8Ω speakers or add a 100V transformer to the amplifier.

I had found that Monacor from another vendor, it can use the TV’s speaker out with no amplification and it’s stack height is perfect. So it fits my needs.
My problem is what are the design parameters for the enclosure, namely volume and type.
I have made enclosures for others in the past, but never did the calculations or design myself...
So this is perfect small project to tip my toes in, as I have bigger ambitions for the TV room later on.

You don't need an enclosure, just mount the speaker in the ceiling. The speaker will not be designed for use with an enclosure, so it's more likely to sound better without one.

Ok, then!
If I need to amplify, i’ll do it behind the TV as having non lighting “things” in the ceiling complicates the inspection process/rule application.

Whether any additional amplification is required depends on how long the cables are, their cross-sectional area and whether more than one speaker is connected in parallel.

If the total cable resistance is negligible, compared to the speaker impedance and the total speaker impedance is equal to or under what the amplifier can drive, then no amplification is required. In short, if the cable run isn't longer than what one would normally have between the speakers and TV, and it's only driving one 4Ω speaker per channel or two 8Ω in parallel, then no additional amplifier is required.

[gildasd]

While looking for something else (flush plinths) I found these;
https://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/product/20049/yamaha-ns-ic400-in-ceiling-speakers-pair/

These sweet looking Yamaha’s are maybe overkill, but  about 100€ delivered when a no name chinesium would end up at 60€ delivered...
It would need amplification tho.

[Zero999]

While looking for something else (flush plinths) I found these;
https://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/product/20049/yamaha-ns-ic400-in-ceiling-speakers-pair/

These sweet looking Yamaha’s are maybe overkill, but  about 100€ delivered when a no name chinesium would end up at 60€ delivered...
It would need amplification tho.

What makes you believe those fancy Yamaha speakers need amplification?

It appear like a lot of time has been spent on marketing and aesthetics, perhaps more so than anything else, when developing those speakers. If that's important to you, then go for it, otherwise choose some cheaper speakers, of a well known brand.

[gildasd]

While looking for something else (flush plinths) I found these;
https://www.audiovisualonline.co.uk/product/20049/yamaha-ns-ic400-in-ceiling-speakers-pair/

These sweet looking Yamaha’s are maybe overkill, but  about 100€ delivered when a no name chinesium would end up at 60€ delivered...
It would need amplification tho.

What makes you believe those fancy Yamaha speakers need amplification?

It appear like a lot of time has been spent on marketing and aesthetics, perhaps more so than anything else, when developing those speakers. If that's important to you, then go for it, otherwise choose some cheaper speakers, of a well known brand.

The Speaker Out of a TV is About 15W, these are 90W, so I think I need amplification, but I have found tiny inwall amps that will pass the wife test.
TAking into account finish (these are really flush) a similar model from another brand (I will not buy Ali Express specials), the end price is about the same.

Aesthetics are important, these are for the wife’s super modern kitchen, not my workshop!

[rdl]

Really, for a speaker it's the sensitivity that matters, not the power rating so much.

Here, nearly all the speaker manufacturers offer in-ceiling models (in-wall also). The grills are usually paintable so they can be color matched and blend in. For what you're doing I tend to think car speakers might work just as well.

https://www.crutchfield.com/g_101500/In-ceiling-Speakers.html?&pg=1