Freetronics vs Jaycar (IP & copyright issues)

[Jeff_Birt]

Why do places like JayCar sell crappy stuff from China and make cheap clones of popular name brand stuff? They do this because people flock to their stores to buy cheap crap from China. In most cases consumers don't care if they are buying a legit product or a clone as long as they get it cheap. It makes no difference if they are cloned or pirated merchandise or so cheap it will fall apart in short order as long as it is cheap. I've had competitors tell their customers to use my documentation, then I started getting their tech support calls and I promptly threw a fit (for what it was worth).

Cheap crap from China is what everyone wants.

[Kean]

Interesting thing is you can buy the Freetronics one cheaper than the Duinotech one, either directly from Freetronics or from Little Bird.  Admittedly you'd need to pay shipping, but it will save you the pain of the usually terrible Jaycar customer service.  The one decent sales rep at my local store is thankfully now with another of my suppliers.

Another tidbit - the Little Bird site shows inventory levels at suppliers...
So we can see that Jaycar/Techbrands still have 60+ of the Freetronics kits in stock
https://littlebirdelectronics.com.au/products/arduino-experimenters-kit
Whereas it appears that Freetronics themselves only have a few left...
https://littlebirdelectronics.com.au/products/experimenters-kit-for-arduino

I hope Freetronics have been paid for the stock at Techbrands warehouse, and don't have them on consignment - that would be extra sad

[LukeW]

I moved this to general chat.

What a bunch of duchebags Jaycar are 

I'm not so sure... In the beginning of the video Jon says there is an Arduino COMPATIBLE board in his kit. This would imply he isn't selling original Arduinos either.

I agree about the copyright on the book and box. There is definitely an infringement so at least a cease & desist letter is in order but in the long run the expenses probably don't justify the cause. Sad but true and something they are probably well aware of at Jaycar.

As far as the Freetronics Eleven is concerned, it it his own redesigned product, inspired by the Arduino, Arduino-compatible, with some design changes and improvements, new features and tweaks, and changes to the silkscreen documentation.

And importantly - Freetronics puts their new name on this product, their brand, their identity, their documentation, their website, their support. They give credit where it's due as an Arduino-inspired product, but it's clearly a unique design and Freetronics does stand by it as their product.

That's a crucial distinction from most of the "cloneduino" out there who have just lifted the original Gerber files for the Arduino, right down to the unmodified "Made In Italy" text and stamped them out without any identity, any support, any warranty, any effort in design innovation etc.

[LukeW]

It’s not just the display it’s got a micro on it to provide some dumbed down interface,
and SD card socket too, so it must have some software for the file system for that.

I’d rather just the display, but I wasn’t the market for this, it was just convenient.

Well go to the Freetronics website and pull up the detailed documentation yourself. (You can use the source IP for derivative works as per the open-source license terms, of course.)
(Does "Duinotech" give you that? Nope, didn't think so.)

https://github.com/freetronics/OLED128

There is no microcontroller in that system. The display controller is an SSD1351, but it's built into the OLED assembly, you can't separate it.

The support board behind the OLED provides all the basic life support for the OLED, power supply, the boost-converter for the high voltage bias, and logic-level translation so the SPI interface is 5V tolerant.
And it converts the tiny FFC connector into something more friendly for beginners to work with in a rapid prototyping, breadboard, Arduino or Raspberry Pi kind of environment to get started rapidly and easily - which is the whole point.

[johnboxall]

Another tidbit - the Little Bird site shows inventory levels at suppliers...

It isn't real time, just a guesstimate.

Jaycar/Techbrands wholesale are out of FT EXP: stock now.

The sad/stupid thing about this whole situation is that in the time taken to copy the box and manual, they could have just created their own versions and had something to be proud of internally - and not have to put everyone through all this BS.

[EEVblog]

In that case: why is Jon complaining in a video instead of calling his lawyer?

Lawyers cost money, and it's just not worth it.

[Brumby]

Someone on the Jaycar Facebook page pointed out that apparently Freetronics is supporting their clone 

Well, that someone missed a small point...

Jaycar is offering both the Freetronics and the Duinotech kits - and the image is for the Freetronics kit ... so, yes, Freetronics are probably going to support that one.

There is no such reference on the listing for the Duinotech kit.

[SL4P]

""In that case: why is Jon complaining in a video instead of calling his lawyer? I was under the impression the booklet which comes with the kit was also in the public domain. I just checked but the PDF for the booklet doesn't have any specific copyright notices on it also the T&C seem to be primarily about the website itself. In the 'about us' page it says following the Open Source principles of sharing our designs to let other people build on our work just as we've built on the work of others.""

So Jon,
Jaycar posted your URL as the support link on their website - the least you can do is a short explanation and link to YOUR video on YOUR page - so any visitors will become aware of the issue.

[johnboxall]

probably a job in Jaycar as well.

What is second prize?

a job in Jaycar with mandatory overtime

[iampoor]

Is Australia overloaded with desperate lawyers that will sue any corporation on a whim? I know that here in the good ole' USA we have a large collection of lawyer that dont have a fee unless you win. Could suing Jaycar (in the very least) be a good advertising or brand awarenes campaign? 

[VK3DRB]

Now it looks like one dodgy Australian company did not have the brains to come up with the idea themselves, so they had to pirate someone else's work. Jaycar's plagiarism of the manual is pathetic and disgusting.

Jaycar is struck off my list. They were pretty much a waste of time anyway in my book. Most of what they sell is kitsch, some of it offensive. Best to use respectable companies first like Rockby, Altronics, RS-Comp, Element 14, Digikey, Dontronics, Freetronics, Ocean Controls and others instead.

If you need the Freetronics kit, buy it from http://www.freetronics.com.au/collections/kits/products/experimenters-kit-for-arduino#.WAdVJ-B95wo and give Jaycar a wide berth.

I am no lawyer, but maybe Jon can get a lawyer's "cease and desist" letter sent to the CEO of Jaycar. In any case, If you can't trade with integrity in Australia, you don't deserve to be in business.

[VK3DRB]

Here is an idea...

It is possible the entity behind the copying of the kit has not broken the law. But the way to find out initially is to forward the Youtube link to a few lawyers and ask if there is a case that can be made, and then go from there. It should cost nothing for this initial informal advice. Let's assume some lawyer suggests Freetronics has a case for civil action. Then maybe any legal action can be crowd funded. I'd be happy to contribute $100.

[numloxx]

Popped into my local Jaycar this morning for some parts, and headed over to view the Freetronics kit... right next to the copied one.

[AmmoJammo]

Maybe they could buy some Batterisers and copy them 

[kaz911]

Actually since they have copied the ART work and Text - Freetronics have a very good/easy case.

I work with pictures in my "day business" and the enforceable copyright on human made ART (Photo's / original art) is very strong - and punishment can be very hard. That is actually worth the fight IMHO. They payout could be a lot MORE for each kit than the kit sells for as picture copyright is payable PER IMAGE used * the count of distribution or count of potential distribution. Distribution / copying of text does get payouts as well - but nowhere as easy or quick as stolen artwork.

[EEVblog]

I am no lawyer, but maybe Jon can get a lawyer's "cease and desist" letter sent to the CEO of Jaycar.

Worthless, Gary would know it's a bluff. He knows Jon wouldn't waste the money to go after him.

[VK3DRB]

I am no lawyer, but maybe Jon can get a lawyer's "cease and desist" letter sent to the CEO of Jaycar.

Worthless, Gary would know it's a bluff. He knows Jon wouldn't waste the money to go after him.

OK, so he might know Jon enough not to waste money to go after him, but what Jaycar would not count on is a big bucket of money to set the wheels of justice in motion. If 10000 concerned citizens put in an average of $5, that's $50,000. Of course if Jon does not want to do that, then that is his choice. My gut feel is a lot of people would want to see this resolved to Freetronics satisfaction.

In any case, I am involved with a ham club of about 350 electronics enthusiasts, many of whom would shop at Jaycar. And the Youtube video is but a click away.

[Psi]

He could update the graphics on his product to have a picture of the clone and saying "Dont buy the jaycar ripoff version"

I mean what are jaycar going to do, sue him for the graphics on his box. 

[station240]

That's a crucial distinction from most of the "cloneduino" out there who have just lifted the original Gerber files for the Arduino, right down to the unmodified "Made In Italy" text and stamped them out without any identity, any support, any warranty, any effort in design innovation etc.

Wonderful, so Jaycar have breached Australia's country of origin laws, obviously this PCB is actually made in China.

[AmmoJammo]

Update, Jaycar have pulled these from the shelves...

Not sure if it's a permanent thing or they're still deciding what to do.

[Kean]

Update, Jaycar have pulled these from the shelves...

Not sure if it's a permanent thing or they're still deciding what to do.

Even if they have taken them off the shelves, or decided to give a % of the sales to Freetronics, the problem is that the damage is already done.
They aren't likely to dump them in the trash (not eco friendly), so they'll end up on the market somehow - e.g. gifted to schools or sold at their next clearance sale?
They will be made to a low price point, so the quality probably isn't up to par.  I'd be interested to hear about quality of anyone has one to review.

[Brumby]

Update, Jaycar have pulled these from the shelves...

Not sure if it's a permanent thing or they're still deciding what to do.

It's still on their website - and showing as available in a number of stores.  I haven't been in any stores to check, though.

[AmmoJammo]

Update, Jaycar have pulled these from the shelves...

Not sure if it's a permanent thing or they're still deciding what to do.

It's still on their website - and showing as available in a number of stores.  I haven't been in any stores to check, though.

That wouldn't surprise me, but the stores have been instructed to remove them from the shelves...

They may leave it on the website, hoping people will come in and ask about it, simply so they can move the stock that's already in stores...

Or, they have every intention of selling them again once the Freetronics are gone, seeing they're now a clearance item...

[@rt]

I walked in today and asked a manager “Where’s this famous kit I’ve heard about ?”
He played dumb at first, but in the end told me he got an email to remove them from the shelves,
and admitted he’d read about it on forums.

[npelov]

First I want to apologize if this was discussed already. I made minimum effort searching for freetronics and SuperhouseTV and I didn't find anything so I decided to post.

I'm subscribed to SuperhouseTV youtube channel and just today I noticed this video: . It's nothing new someone wanted to make a profit with minimum effort by copying an opensource product and not contributing to it in any way.

So how can one choose to open source their hardware when these things happen. The guy said the video had more publicity than he expected. Well 18k views won't make a difference. Jaycar or whoever they are must be selling the kit cheaper because they spent a lot less resources developing it - copy/paste. So even if you are a kid that believes in open source hardware would you buy the expensive one when you have a $10 multimeter because you can't afford cheap good brand $50-$100. You do whatever has to be done to keep you going with the things you love to do. If that means to buy $3 arduino copy (or clone because it sounds like they've done more work than putting cheaper USB chip) - you do it.

So what is your motivation of making open source hardware as a business? Forget about hobbyists who make something for themselves open source the hardware and sometimes they run bigger batch of pcbs to reduce their cost and sell some of them - just for the sake of reducing the expenses of their hobby. I'm talking about a guy sitting there hours and hours making a product, with well done manual for living. Why should he open source his work? You will say if it's not open source it can still be copied. Yes, but they have to make more effort, which could discourage them.

I know a lot of angry people will contact Jaycar and yell at them, but you heard the guy - he doesn't give a shit. He'll still sell his kit better because it's cheaper. And sometimes people will buy the rip off because they simply don't know it's just a copy. 18k views is not enough to reach big enough part of Jaycar's potential customers. Like who's trying to magnetize a relay board by switching it at high frequency. Maybe it's a relay board that's found in someone's open source design files. Not that it's hard to design one, but once you steal a product you can't resist doing it even if it's easier to do it yourself.

At least I hope that guy got some publicity and sales from the video sharing (which is not my point of this post).