Author Topic: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.  (Read 39111 times)

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Offline nardev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #650 on: November 28, 2018, 08:42:23 am »
Man, you have no idea how much make up, perfumes and clothes for girl costs   :-DD :-DD :-DD

The state should help them  :-DD

What if they were conditioned differently so they don't depend on it?

You can read my opinion on this. Few posts above.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #651 on: November 28, 2018, 09:01:28 am »
Man, you have no idea how much make up, perfumes and clothes for girl costs   :-DD :-DD :-DD

The state should help them  :-DD

What if they were conditioned differently so they don't depend on it?

We do not know how to "condition humans differently", how to do it with specific results, or even without a violent backlash against such manipulation.  There is no design behind our cultures; they're evolved things, just like you are.

If you are seriously suggesting that states should have programs for conditioning people towards a specific mindset, I will fight you tooth and nail, no matter what your intentions are.  That sort of thing has been tried before quite a few times now (and basically always with positive good intentions, initially). Yet, every time the result has been disaster, often devolving into mass murder (of those who refuse to be conditioned).  Study history, carefully, before suggesting anything of that sort.  Humans should define their ideologies, not the other way around.
 

Offline nardev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #652 on: November 28, 2018, 09:07:03 am »
Man, you have no idea how much make up, perfumes and clothes for girl costs   :-DD :-DD :-DD

The state should help them  :-DD

What if they were conditioned differently so they don't depend on it?

We do not know how to "condition humans differently", how to do it with specific results, or even without a violent backlash against such manipulation.  There is no design behind our cultures; they're evolved things, just like you are.

If you are seriously suggesting that states should have programs for conditioning people towards a specific mindset, I will fight you tooth and nail, no matter what your intentions are.  That sort of thing has been tried before quite a few times now (and basically always with positive good intentions, initially). Yet, every time the result has been disaster, often devolving into mass murder (of those who refuse to be conditioned).  Study history, carefully, before suggesting anything of that sort.  Humans should define their ideologies, not the other way around.

I have no intention to argue regarding this.

My opinion is that there is nothing important to argue about here.

So, let the people do what ever they want. BUT if you let them put on scene evaluation system for work, and argue that something else but knowledge, skills and results are important, than, it's foolish and must not be allowed.

I have no problems working with girl developer, i have problems working with stupid developer, what ever it is he or she or he/she. That is what degrades everything and destroys the system. Not the fact that you would have more or less girls/boys in a team/faculty.

So fighting for more girls in engineering IMHO is like protesting and asking for more salt in ocean water.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 09:13:28 am by nardev »
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #653 on: November 28, 2018, 09:25:58 am »
Thats because some know almost everybody is going to lose their jobs, in some cohorts, including the women.

I was a shocked to learn that they are now pushing gender issues in engineering as well, they are looking for female engineers to put them on a pedestal.
So today just being a good engineer and love what you do is no longer enought. No... you must also have a vagina to be put in the spotlight. When will this insanity stop?

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180717006017/en/Design-World-Media-Launches-Women-Engineering-Issue
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #654 on: November 28, 2018, 09:42:57 am »
Man, you have no idea how much make up, perfumes and clothes for girl costs   :-DD :-DD :-DD

The state should help them  :-DD

What if they were conditioned differently so they don't depend on it?

We do not know how to "condition humans differently", how to do it with specific results, or even without a violent backlash against such manipulation.  There is no design behind our cultures; they're evolved things, just like you are.

If you are seriously suggesting that states should have programs for conditioning people towards a specific mindset, I will fight you tooth and nail, no matter what your intentions are.  That sort of thing has been tried before quite a few times now (and basically always with positive good intentions, initially). Yet, every time the result has been disaster, often devolving into mass murder (of those who refuse to be conditioned).  Study history, carefully, before suggesting anything of that sort.  Humans should define their ideologies, not the other way around.


Ah sorry, through encouragement and not forcefully through manipulation.

Maybe I chose the wrong words.

I mean the time they were born of not introducing them initially in an environment of things like gender clothes, perfume and lipstick but that would apply to both genders.

If they desire something else that's fine later on but surrounding them with stuff as in "conditioning" and setting another example through them watching others in a particular fields work who can be different and let them choose their preference.

I can see that is not going to work in the name of equality unless there are laws that protect both genders.

Okay it is worthless argument.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 09:46:25 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #655 on: November 28, 2018, 12:58:34 pm »
I mean the time they were born of not introducing them initially in an environment of things like gender clothes, perfume and lipstick but that would apply to both genders.

It's up to the parents, you get no say in that, and neither should the state. Subject to stuff that is deemed to be "abusive".
For example, I consider indoctrination of children into a religion almost like a form of intellectual child abuse, but I do stop short of saying they shouldn't have the right to do that (subject to extreme cases). Nor would I ever push for the state to have the power to dictate that they can't.

There is no denying that fact that the human culture has biologically evolved along gender roles, and rightly so, those roles are essential for the survival of the human race in fact. So I have no problem with parents following the social norms of gender differentiation in bring up their kids. Can it be better? Yeah, probably, but I see no shortage of encourage already for girl to get into engineering and other science related stuff. From kindergarten onwards I have seen that are kids all equally involved in the making/science type stuff, they don't separate the kids like they did in the 50's. Indeed, look at the numbers in woman in science, and it outnumbers men I think. Engineering though seems to be a more specific thing that seems (based on evidence) to derive from more natural evolutionary differences in the male/female brains.

You want to make a difference, try discouraging parents into sending their kids of single gender schools for starters.
 
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Online Circlotron

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #656 on: November 28, 2018, 02:02:03 pm »
You want to make a difference, try discouraging parents into sending their kids of single gender schools for starters.
+1000 for that!
I went to a single gender secondary school 1971-1975, and at the very time one should be learning how to relate to the other 50% of the population in ordinary non-contrived circumstances, there is such a lack of opportunity to do so. I'd say the lasting effect is hugely overlooked.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #657 on: November 28, 2018, 02:02:45 pm »
I mean the time they were born of not introducing them initially in an environment of things like gender clothes, perfume and lipstick but that would apply to both genders.

It's up to the parents, you get no say in that, and neither should the state. Subject to stuff that is deemed to be "abusive".
For example, I consider indoctrination of children into a religion almost like a form of intellectual child abuse, but I do stop short of saying they shouldn't have the right to do that (subject to extreme cases). Nor would I ever push for the state to have the power to dictate that they can't.

There is no denying that fact that the human culture has biologically evolved along gender roles, and rightly so, those roles are essential for the survival of the human race in fact. So I have no problem with parents following the social norms of gender differentiation in bring up their kids. Can it be better? Yeah, probably, but I see no shortage of encourage already for girl to get into engineering and other science related stuff. From kindergarten onwards I have seen that are kids all equally involved in the making/science type stuff, they don't separate the kids like they did in the 50's. Indeed, look at the numbers in woman in science, and it outnumbers men I think. Engineering though seems to be a more specific thing that seems (based on evidence) to derive from more natural evolutionary differences in the male/female brains.

You want to make a difference, try discouraging parents into sending their kids of single gender schools for starters.

Agree with all of that, and especially with your first sentence.

I also think that claiming biology has no impact whatsoever on gender differentiation is just inept. Of course culture has become an essential part of human evolution, but has it overriden biology altogether? And should it? Probably not. But gender - or should we say "agender" instead - politics tend to willingly deny both biological *and* historical cultural differentiation. This would inevitably lead to loss of differentiation, and then loss of diversity (not to mention obvious other issues). As long as society guarantees fairness for all and equal opportunity, I don't think we should go any further, or it would end up in some kind of shapeless uniformity and in my opinion, totalitarian regimes. Would take a while to develop, but I guess you get the point.


 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #658 on: November 28, 2018, 06:40:29 pm »
I mean the time they were born of not introducing them initially in an environment of things like gender clothes, perfume and lipstick but that would apply to both genders.
Even if you convinced all parents in the world to try that, even then the statistical differences between genders in personality types and interests would remain.  (We know this because they remain across all cultures, and even in other species. They are not just a social construct; there is a biological basis.)

You might find the Wikipedia Big Five personality traits article interesting.

setting another example through them watching others in a particular fields work who can be different and let them choose their preference.
Role models are very important, that's for sure.  The world is full of bad examples.  Just look at most beauty/celebrity gossip magazines or TV shows.  Horrible crap that can make a gullible or naive person think that world really revolves around that sort of stuff.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #659 on: November 28, 2018, 08:19:43 pm »
Role models are very important, that's for sure.  The world is full of bad examples.  Just look at most beauty/celebrity gossip magazines or TV shows.  Horrible crap that can make a gullible or naive person think that world really revolves around that sort of stuff.

One of the biggest, if the the biggest, negative impact on educational, social and emotional development is absent fathers. That has been known for decades. My sister is a PhD educational psychologist (and definitely left leaning, although certainly not a third wave feminist), and was saying this over twenty years ago.

It is slightly more nuanced than this: for example single parenthood caused by death do not create the same poorer outcomes that divorce or out-of-wedlock birth does.

Unfortunately it is not fashionable to say this, but very many studies bear this out.

The most recent study I've seen on this (http://ftp.iza.org/dp10814.pdf) correlates with other earlier studies attributing the reason why females on average are consistently performing significantly better than males in education is because there is limited or no direct access to their father.

Again, not fashionable, but that's what the studies say.
 
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Offline KL27x

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #660 on: November 28, 2018, 09:01:21 pm »
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Which are a failure to share the improvements in standards of living generated by technology - at all- with anybody- and intentions to increase not decrease inequality in the future in what amounts to sort of a preemptive strike against the bright future that many seem to be expecting- pressure to ameliorate some of the impacts of vanishing jobs of all kinds.  This is a very well organized, international effort. It began in 1986 with the incorporation of services into the talks for what was to become the WTO. The glue that held it together was the promise of service jobs in develkoped countries being channeled to corporations located in the poorer countries in large numbers. In part to allow them to pay ff illegitimate debts. The so called "Third World Debt". Or at least that is one of the cover stories. Its one that is as likely as not, perhaps more likely than not to be an excuse rather than the real cause. The real cause is simply greed. Oligarchs of North and South are really on the same team. Not opposed. They would be the first to tell us (and they have) that the nation-state's days are waning.
Cdev, your last couple of posts reek of truth. Not that I'm highly informed, myself, but let's just say I like the cut of your jib.

I am not disagreeing with the overall sentiment, at all. But I would question if there is actually a significant "increase in standards of living generated by technology" in the last 50 years, to begin with. We have made significant advances in computer technology and internet/communication. But what does that produce? There's robotics, but unless there is something more productive for that human capital to be put to... well, there's really no significant increase in standard of living that will result from replacing humans with robot.
 
What we should have more of, humans in general, is perhaps a small increase in leisure time. In the US it seems this is the opposite. Treez started a thread about engineers in the UK paid to be present but given no work. Why? In the US, we have some of the worst working hours in the first world, people in many professions working long hours. Even professions which pay very highly, many of them come with expenses which make it impossible for an employer to hire such a skilled professional for lower hours. It's either work like a dog to make any money, or don't bother. Then there's the government jobs, where in many of them a new hire that works too hard will get punished. Because if the work gets finished before deadline, the budget will not be automatically increased at the next review! 

The more time you spend at work the less time you have to think, maybe. The idle hand does the "devils work." But the devil is maybe not the bad guy in this statement. :)

Totally unrelated, but:
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There is no denying that fact that the human culture has biologically evolved along gender roles, and rightly so, those roles are essential for the survival of the human race in fact.
I think it is obvious that gender roles are not necessary for the survival of the human race, nor have they been necessary since humans became proficient at agriculture. Sure, gender roles may be important in the survival of one race/culture vs the other. But we are all humans, so the "human race" survives either way. Until the dolphins rise up and kill us all.




« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 09:30:12 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #661 on: November 28, 2018, 09:34:28 pm »
Also, I am not disagreeing with you that fewer women are interested in engineering than men, that is clearly true. But some of the reduced participation's causes may also be economic. Women simply having less money and also often having family persistently spend less money on them. And now society also seems to be washing its hands of its responsibilities to everybody who cant afford the outrageously high costs.

How do teenage women who are looking into studying engineering and getting in to the field have less money than men?

Man, you have no idea how much make up, perfumes and clothes for girl costs   :-DD :-DD :-DD

The state should help them  :-DD
No, all she needs to do is flutter their eyelashes at an older boy and he'll buy all of that for her. He'll then get into more at university because he has to borrow money to keep his girlfriend happy.  ::)

Seriously boys waste just as much money as girls. Not only on dating girls but on things like cars. The financial gap between men and women doesn't really appear until they've left college and start working.


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There is no denying that fact that the human culture has biologically evolved along gender roles, and rightly so, those roles are essential for the survival of the human race in fact.
I think it is obvious that gender roles have not been necessary for the survival of the human race, nor have they been necessary since humans became proficient at agriculture. Sure, gender roles may be important in the survival of one race/culture vs the other. But we are all humans, and the "human race" survives either way.
It depends on what you mean by gender roles?

If you're talking about who spends most of their time raising children vs providing food, money etc. then it's undeniable that women will always spend more time raising children, than men do. This is a biological necessity. Unless artificial wombs are developed, then this will continue to be the case and even if it happens, no doubt the majority of women will still prefer to carry their own child, rather than a machine and will want to devote more time to raising it, than their partner.

People often overlook the fact that humans are animals, with instincts. It's true humans have a lot of extra wiring which enables them to override their instincts, but they're still present and not following them results in unhappiness.

The main problem I have with today's society is the emphasis on money. The only reason why people want women to be more involved in making and designing things, is because it pays more than child care.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #662 on: November 28, 2018, 09:51:17 pm »
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If you're talking about who spends most of their time raising children vs providing food, money etc. then it's undeniable that women will always spend more time raising children, than men do. This is a biological necessity. Unless artificial wombs are developed, then this will continue to be the case and even if it happens, no doubt the majority of women will still prefer to carry their own child, rather than a machine and will want to devote more time to raising it, than their partner.
Carrying a child takes 1 year. That's a pretty small percentage of a lifetime.
It is not undeniable that women will always spend more time raising children. There are stay at home dads with working moms.
Even "work" itself may one day be an antiquity.

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People often overlook the fact that humans are animals, with instincts. It's true humans have a lot of extra wiring which enables them to override their instincts, but they're still present and not following them results in unhappiness.
Who says happiness is necessary for survival? Through war and famine and inhuman dictatorships, humans survive. Through first world malaise and mass drug addictions humans survive. We survive way too well. It's not like humans are on the endangered species list; we are not seeking ways to increase our fertility/reproduction rate, as if we are the last few giant pandas, cheering for every new baby that gets spit of of a vagina.

"Whew! That was a close call. We were running out of people!"

We still have instincts, yeah. And this is why we have an affinity for zombie apocalypse movies. It is a fantasy where our instincts serve a useful purpose, once again.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 10:22:44 pm by KL27x »
 

Online Circlotron

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #663 on: November 28, 2018, 10:17:06 pm »
One of the biggest, if the the biggest, negative impact on educational, social and emotional development is absent fathers. That has been known for decades.
Just look how often some totally out of control kid is on Dr Phil and only the mother is there. Not always, but often enough to notice.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #664 on: November 28, 2018, 10:38:29 pm »
Quote
If you're talking about who spends most of their time raising children vs providing food, money etc. then it's undeniable that women will always spend more time raising children, than men do. This is a biological necessity. Unless artificial wombs are developed, then this will continue to be the case and even if it happens, no doubt the majority of women will still prefer to carry their own child, rather than a machine and will want to devote more time to raising it, than their partner.
Carrying a child takes 1 year. That's a pretty small percentage of a lifetime.
It is not undeniable that women will always spend more time raising children. There are stay at home dads with working moms.
Even "work" itself may one day be an antiquity.
Nonsense. It takes much more than a year to raise child. 9 months to carry the child, followed by another 12 months nursing the baby, then it can't be left alone for long and it won't start school for another 3 or 4 years. Once it's started school, it'll still reduce the parent's ability to work, as the school day is shorter than the average working day and will need taking to and from school for the first 6 or 7 years. People also typically have more than one child, two to three being the norm in the developed world, so a few years out work need to be added to the previously mentioned figures.

Of course if the parent earns enough, then they'll be able to afford a stranger to take care of the child, but most people don't want to do that, even if they can afford to. It also means that roles such as childcare will pay less, than designing/building things, otherwise it wouldn't make any economic sense.

Quote
Quote
People often overlook the fact that humans are animals, with instincts. It's true humans have a lot of extra wiring which enables them to override their instincts, but they're still present and not following them results in unhappiness.
Who says happiness is necessary for survival? Through war and famine and inhuman dictatorships, humans survive. Through first world malaise and mass drug addictions humans survive. We survive way too well. It's not like humans are on the endangered species list; we are not seeking ways to increase our fertility/reproduction rate, as if we are the last few giant pandas, cheering for every new baby that gets spit of of a vagina.

"Whew! That was a close call. We were running out of people!"

We still have instincts, yeah. And this is why we have an affinity for zombie apocalypse movies. It is a fantasy where our instincts serve a useful purpose, once again.
True, but if following one's instincts results in greater happiness, then that's what one is more likely to do and since women have a stronger instinct for caring, than men do, that's what they'll do more, irrespective of technology and so-called positive, oh I mean authoritarian discrimination.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 12:09:52 am by Hero999 »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #665 on: November 29, 2018, 02:19:02 am »
It takes much more than a year to raise child.
The median duration of marriages that ended in divorce has been about 7 years for a hundred years in the USA, according to NCHS.

This "seven year itch" is suggested to stem from human biology and evolution: it takes about seven years for a couple to produce a child through early childhood, and ready to be "raised" rest of the way by the tribe, and has been so for tens of thousands of years.

Most people don't like the suggestion that such fundamental tendencies of their behaviour could be because of biology, and not just a social construction or their free will.  Me, I'm well aware I'm an animal.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #666 on: November 29, 2018, 03:46:37 am »
Most people don't like the suggestion that such fundamental tendencies of their behaviour could be because of biology, and not just a social construction or their free will.  Me, I'm well aware I'm an animal.
Its rather like the cognitive dissonance of young earth creationists who work as geologists.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #667 on: November 29, 2018, 04:18:09 am »
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Nonsense. It takes much more than a year to raise child.
I said carry, not raise. (I even added an extra 3 months for recovery.) You said that women putting more time into raising children is a biological necessity because of the child-bearing part. Now you say it takes 7 years to raise a child. So you just defeated your own argument. A man could spend more time than a woman in raising a given child; no artificial womb required. I believe Michael Keaton did a video documentary on the topic. His work was somewhat derivative, of course - there being a previous video thesis using 3 fathers.

;)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 04:38:02 am by KL27x »
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #668 on: November 29, 2018, 04:30:16 am »
Nowadays some people can and sometimes do pay other people- young women in poorer circumstances, typically, to carry and bear their genetic children, and then surrender them to the genetic parents.

Gestational surrogacy. Similar to the one wet nurses provided in the past. Its even internationally traded.

Quote
If you're talking about who spends most of their time raising children vs providing food, money etc. then it's undeniable that women will always spend more time raising children, than men do. This is a biological necessity. Unless artificial wombs are developed, then this will continue to be the case and even if it happens, no doubt the majority of women will still prefer to carry their own child, rather than a machine and will want to devote more time to raising it, than their partner.
Carrying a child takes 1 year. That's a pretty small percentage of a lifetime.
It is not undeniable that women will always spend more time raising children. There are stay at home dads with working moms.
Even "work" itself may one day be an antiquity.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #669 on: November 29, 2018, 05:16:40 am »
Nowadays some people can and sometimes do pay other people- young women in poorer circumstances, typically, to carry and bear their genetic children, and then surrender them to the genetic parents.

Gestational surrogacy. Similar to the one wet nurses provided in the past. Its even internationally traded.
The ethics and legal status of such arrangements are questionable. I'm pretty sure the women who carried the child is legally allowed to keep it, in some jurisdictions, irrespective of any surrogacy agreement.

Quote
Nonsense. It takes much more than a year to raise child.
I said carry, not raise. (I even added an extra 3 months for recovery.) You said that women putting more time into raising children is a biological necessity because of the child-bearing part. Now you say it takes 7 years to raise a child. So you just defeated your own argument. A man could spend more time than a woman in raising a given child; no artificial womb required. I believe Michael Keaton did a video documentary on the topic. His work was somewhat derivative, of course - there being a previous video thesis using 3 fathers.

;)
Before we had formula milk women had to nurse the baby for another year or so, giving a total of 18 months for each child. Also without contraception, it was highly likely she would get pregnant shortly after the first one was weaned.

Yes men can spend longer raising children but in reality they don't.  Biology aside, career breaks can be disruptive and it normally makes no sense for both parents to take one. There are exceptions of course, but it isn't the norm.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #670 on: November 29, 2018, 05:33:17 am »
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Yes men can spend longer raising children
Ding, ding.

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but in reality they don't.
... and this is proof that gender roles such as one gender performing the raising of children are necessary for the survival of the human race, is it?
 

Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #671 on: November 29, 2018, 06:17:06 am »
I love biology deniers.

Formula milk has been popular for nearly 50 years. The fact that up until then, not taking on that responsibility meant almost certain death for your progeny, can't conceivably have had any evolutionary effect over the 100s of thousands of years prior.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #672 on: November 29, 2018, 06:19:32 am »
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Yes men can spend longer raising children
Ding, ding.

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but in reality they don't.
... and this is proof that gender roles such as one gender performing the raising of children are necessary for the survival of the human race, is it?
I never said that this is still the the case. You've got your quotes mixed up.

Nowadays survival has nothing to do with it. The gender roles have evolved long before modern technology existed, but human instincts will not change. As I said before, no doubt that even if artificial wombs existed most women would opt for a natural pregnancy.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 06:21:27 am by Hero999 »
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #673 on: November 29, 2018, 06:25:29 am »
^You have a short memory.

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but human instincts will not change.
Not in our lifetime. But even today, we have to insitutionally educate much of the instinct out of our offspring. We have to maintain laws and put people in jails for following their instincts. There may come a time when some instincts disappear, due to the removal of any genetic/reproductive advantage.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 06:29:46 am by KL27x »
 

Offline Zero999

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  • Hero999
Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
« Reply #674 on: November 29, 2018, 06:31:08 am »
^You have a short memory.
You're the one with the memory problem. It was Dave who said gender roles are essential for the survival of the human race.
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/gender-politics-has-now-infected-engineering-as-well/msg1996391/#msg1996391

Granted, that might have been true a long time ago, but it isn't today. However, human instincts haven't changed since then and prevail, hence my comment about it women being biologically more predisposed to care for children than men.
 


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