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General => General Chat => Topic started by: blackfin76 on July 26, 2018, 05:59:40 pm

Title: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on July 26, 2018, 05:59:40 pm
I was a shocked to learn that they are now pushing gender issues in engineering as well, they are looking for female engineers to put them on a pedestal.
So today just being a good engineer and love what you do is no longer enought. No... you must also have a vagina to be put in the spotlight. When will this insanity stop?

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180717006017/en/Design-World-Media-Launches-Women-Engineering-Issue (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180717006017/en/Design-World-Media-Launches-Women-Engineering-Issue)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: daqq on July 26, 2018, 06:06:54 pm
Quote
When will this insanity stop?
When most in the western world will be incapable of doing anything useful for fear of offending someone who's loud enough to drown out sanity.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blueskull on July 26, 2018, 06:24:44 pm
When you give a certain group of people short term "privilege", are you really doing good to them?

MOD: Video removed, we don't need political video here.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Eka on July 26, 2018, 06:26:52 pm
I was a shocked to learn that they are now pushing gender issues in engineering as well, they are looking for female engineers to put them on a pedestal.
You're a few decades late...
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanMacdonald on July 26, 2018, 06:35:07 pm
I suspect the reason there aren't many women is the same reason a lot of men steer clear of eng or science degrees - endless swathes of theoretical maths that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject in question.

An exercise akin to memorising the telephone book - except that being able to recall any phone number in the region might actually be more useful.

Women tend to be more pragmatic about such things, as in  'I can't see the point in that'  and walk away.  :-//
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on July 26, 2018, 06:52:47 pm
I agree with the sentiment but is there a need to discuss this again?

These threads often result in an argument. I'm disappointed to see another one.  :palm:
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rachaelp on July 26, 2018, 06:59:26 pm
I was a shocked to learn that they are now pushing gender issues in engineering as well, they are looking for female engineers to put them on a pedestal.
So today just being a good engineer and love what you do is no longer enought. No... you must also have a vagina to be put in the spotlight. When will this insanity stop?

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180717006017/en/Design-World-Media-Launches-Women-Engineering-Issue (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180717006017/en/Design-World-Media-Launches-Women-Engineering-Issue)

Quote from: The above linked article
The company’s flagship brand, Design World, will celebrate some of the most inspiring women in the design engineering space in the November issue.

In a profession where women are seriously under represented and men have had the spotlight for decades, a single edition of Design World in November being dedicated to women in engineering really isn't very shocking, and I doubt it will have any lasting impact on anybody anyway. Your indignation is unjustified and this thread is unnecessary.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on July 26, 2018, 07:55:15 pm

In a profession where women are seriously under represented and men have had the spotlight for decades, a single edition of Design World in November being dedicated to women in engineering really isn't very shocking, and I doubt it will have any lasting impact on anybody anyway. Your indignation is unjustified and this thread is unnecessary.

I don't get what having a vagina has anything to do with engineering.  :-//
The number of engineers with only one arm is also seriously under represented and engineers with two arms have had the spotlight for decades.  Also engineers with only one arm are a very small minority and it's really ridiculous Design World is trying to suppress them by not dedicating the November issue to their issues.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rachaelp on July 26, 2018, 08:13:58 pm
I don't get what having a vagina has anything to do with engineering.  :-//
The number of engineers with only one arm is also seriously under represented and engineers with two arms have had the spotlight for decades.  Also engineers with only one arm are a very small minority and it's really ridiculous Design World is trying to suppress them by not dedicating the November issue to their issues.

 :palm:

Sigh.... How do you know engineers with one arm are under represented? On a similar line, I know exactly one person with only one leg and he IS an engineer, a very good one at that. This is not a clever argument.... As I said, your indignation is unjustified and this thread is unnecessary.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: amyk on July 26, 2018, 09:21:09 pm
I agree with the sentiment but is there a need to discuss this again?

These threads often result in an argument. I'm disappointed to see another one.  :palm:
Agreed. No need to wade into the knee-deep bullshit again.

That said, the past few years have seen a surprising amount of publicity from  female "engineers" trying to create physically impossible products. |O
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on July 26, 2018, 09:43:23 pm
I agree with the sentiment but is there a need to discuss this again?

These threads often result in an argument. I'm disappointed to see another one.  :palm:
Agreed. No need to wade into the knee-deep bullshit again.

That said, the past few years have seen a surprising amount of publicity from  female "engineers" trying to create physically impossible products. |O
No kidding. Elizabeth Holmes and Meredith Perry have reinforced misogynists’ prejudices in spectacular fashion. :(
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Jeroen3 on July 26, 2018, 09:55:57 pm
How many of you were the first in the family to enter engineering?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on July 26, 2018, 10:03:21 pm
I don't get what having a vagina has anything to do with engineering.  :-//
The number of engineers with only one arm is also seriously under represented and engineers with two arms have had the spotlight for decades.  Also engineers with only one arm are a very small minority and it's really ridiculous Design World is trying to suppress them by not dedicating the November issue to their issues.

 :palm:

Sigh.... How do you know engineers with one arm are under represented? On a similar line, I know exactly one person with only one leg and he IS an engineer, a very good one at that. This is not a clever argument.... As I said, your indignation is unjustified and this thread is unnecessary.

Sarcasm?

My aim was to make fun out of the whole identity politics debate in which they don't see people as individuals but as part of a group. The sooner we get rid of this misconception the better. That's why I called out this issue with Design World. Obviously the managing editor of the magazine has nothing better to report about, rendering the November edition of the magazine totally useless for engineers. This is nothing but an attempt to virtue signaling to the world that they are working on the non-existing problem of too less engineers with a vagina. You know for some reason some people seem to believe a vagina is useful tool for doing engineering. How this misconception has come to be is a mystery to my and the people I have asked to clearify this have never supplied me with a satisfying answer.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on July 26, 2018, 10:47:15 pm
I thought this forum had a no politics rule?

Anyway -  for the whining crybabies up in arms about something as small as this:

1) If you are so blind and oblivious to your place in the world that you can not even see the simple obvious advantage you've been handed your whole lives due to the random chance of your physical sex (and race too, for many... and location on the earth's surface) at birth -  maybe you really are below average enough that you actually should be worried about competition from groups of people that have systematically been kept down for your benefit?

2) But the fact you're whining so hard about something so small and insignificant shows us at some level you do know what's going on, you're just scared as hell of it changing.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on July 26, 2018, 11:27:54 pm
I thought this forum had a no politics rule?

Anyway -  for the whining crybabies up in arms about something as small as this:

1) If you are so blind and oblivious to your place in the world that you can not even see the simple obvious advantage you've been handed your whole lives due to the random chance of your physical sex (and race too, for many... and location on the earth's surface) at birth -  maybe you really are below average enough that you actually should be worried about competition from groups of people that have systematically been kept down for your benefit?

2) But the fact you're whining so hard about something so small and insignificant shows us at some level you do know what's going on, you're just scared as hell of it changing.

This has nothing to do with politics and besides that this is the section 'general chat'.  Also the assumptions you make are silly. What do you mean by 'obvious advantage'. It seems to me you are full of dispositions that fit a certain political narrative.  So please stop the strawmanning and give me some decent arguments, because it is 'obvious' you have not given it any serious thoughts.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Pack34 on July 26, 2018, 11:34:47 pm
That's interesting. In my experience engineering has been fairly agnostic towards genders and orientations. What matters is what you can do and how well you work with others. Maybe it's just my history in working with smaller companies.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on July 26, 2018, 11:50:53 pm
groups of people that have systematically been kept down

any concrete and current examples?

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 26, 2018, 11:51:54 pm
I don't see the big deal in a magazine devoting an entire issue to women, they are free to do that and will live with whatever benefit or repercussion that brings.
Yes, we have had several threads on this topic here and if it goes off-topic or personal the thread will get locked.

IMO it was much more of a big deal in the other big thread about the gender/race politics and "rigor" et.al being introduced into engineering degrees as that potentially impacts the industry and students. A magazine hardly anyone reads is like, meh.

I agree with any general sentiment that gender should be left out of engineering, it doesn't and shouldn't matter. Trying to make any perceived "imbalance" in the industry "right" by targeting gender is I think ultimately the wrong approach, just stick to showcasing engineering. You do something cool, you get highlighted, no one gives a toss about your gender.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2018, 12:07:54 am
That's interesting. In my experience engineering has been fairly agnostic towards genders and orientations. What matters is what you can do and how well you work with others. Maybe it's just my history in working with smaller companies.

That's my experience as well.
I got hired in my first job by a female. I didn't care then and I don't care now.
I've seen practically no discrimination towards females in the industry in my 30 years, just because they are female, other factors are vastly more important than gender.

I had a group of engineering students visit my lab a couple of years back (that Wikipedia photo of me in the lab was taken by one of them as I was talking to them). They were investigating what's it's like "in the industry", and many of the questions focused on gender and discrimination.
I told them that discrimination is quite real - If someone doesn't like the way you look, the way you talk, your attitude, your mannerisms, your sense of humor, the way you smell, the way you dress, the way you sit in the interview chair, and of course your technical competency, you are getting judged. Welcome to the real world were gender is just one of dozens things you could potentially be judged on. But any competent technical employer knows gender has jack-all to do with anything and won't factor into any decision about hiring etc. Other stuff like are you someone they can get along with, and are you competent are the important things.

Not saying there isn't gender discrimination of course, but in my experience it's massively way down the list.

Now we get reverse discrimination were men are being discriminated against because of their gender. It's not making things better.
Both "sides" should just stop it.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Pack34 on July 27, 2018, 12:23:13 am
That's interesting. In my experience engineering has been fairly agnostic towards genders and orientations. What matters is what you can do and how well you work with others. Maybe it's just my history in working with smaller companies.

That's my experience as well.
I got hired in my first job by a female. I didn't care then and I don't care now.
I've seen practically no discrimination towards females in the industry in my 30 years, just because they are female, other factors are vastly more important than gender.

I had a group of engineering students visit my lab a couple of years back (that Wikipedia photo of me in the lab was taken by one of them as I was talking to them). They were investigating what's it's like "in the industry", and many of the questions focused on gender and discrimination.
I told them that discrimination is quite real - If someone doesn't like the way you look, the way you talk, your attitude, your mannerisms, your sense of humor, the way you smell, the way you dress, the way you sit in the interview chair, and of course your technical competency, you are getting judged. Welcome to the real world were gender is just one of dozens things you could potentially be judged on. But any competent technical employer knows gender has jack-all to do with anything and won't factor into any decision about hiring etc. Other stuff like are you someone they can get along with, and are you competent are the important things.

Not saying there isn't gender discrimination of course, but in my experience it's massively way down the list.

Now we get reverse discrimination were men are being discriminated against because of their gender. It's not making things better.
Both "sides" should just stop it.

This reminds me of a few interview experiences at one of my employers. When discussing the interviewee after-the-fact the engineers and technical minded people would always comment on their thoughts on technical competency, whether they got the feeling they would be happy with the pace and type of work, and whether or not they would enjoy working with them.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, you would have the comments made by marketing and non-technical managers. With them, I would much more often hear comments about how they carried themselves, the way the dressed, articulated, etc.  I could definitely be some levels of discrimination there and depending on the organizational structure could potentially be an unfortunate barrier if marketing had GO/NO-GO decision making impacts on the hiring process.

I personally don't care if they came to the interview in jeans and sneakers or if their tie wasn't done just right. For me, it's passion and attitude first, technical competency second, with the rest being completely irrelevant. Some of the brightest and best workers tend to be a bit disheveled and no engineer I've met wears ties and a suit to work.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2018, 12:25:06 am
In a profession where women are seriously under represented and men have had the spotlight for decades

I'd call into question that being objectively true.
Let's say women are 10% of the field (MIT say 13% in engineering, I think it's under 10% in electronics), you'd expect to see 90% of the "spotlight" go to men. That's a pretty overwhelming figure and could be easily construed as being somehow "unfair" to those who are looking for such unfairness.
But in reality it's not unfair, it's just a simple manifestation of the gender breakdown based on the pure statistics.

I'd argue that the opposite is the case. For a long time I've seen many females getting spotlighted because, whilst they may have done something cool, the media angle has been focused on the "female in tech" angle, and that's the real reason they got the spotlight. It makes for a novel media angle.

One could even argue that females have potentially more opportunity than males in engineering.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: ebastler on July 27, 2018, 12:52:27 am
Let's say women are 10% of the field (MIT say 13% in engineering, I think it's under 10% in electronics), you'd expect to see 90% of the "spotlight" go to men. That's a pretty overwhelming figure and could be easily construed as being somehow "unfair" to those who are looking for such unfairness.
But in reality it's not unfair, it's just a simple manifestation of the gender breakdown based on the pure statistics.

But has it crossed your mind that the "90% male" environment might actually put talented young females off, and make them decide for a different career? And wouldn't it be worth some time and effort to change that perception, also by giving above-average visibility to women in engineering, to encourage potential female students to study technical disciplines?

Speaking of which, this forum seems to have far less than 10% female members. Is that "based on the pure statistics" as well? Or is there a feedback mechanism, where the predominantly male audience sets a certain tone which does not encourage female engineers to join? Nothing intentional, I'm sure -- but those who make up the majority in a group may be less tuned in to signals which the group sends to minorities.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rachaelp on July 27, 2018, 01:05:44 am
In a profession where women are seriously under represented and men have had the spotlight for decades

I'd call into question that being objectively true.
Let's say women are 10% of the field (MIT say 13% in engineering, I think it's under 10% in electronics), you'd expect to see 90% of the "spotlight" go to men. That's a pretty overwhelming figure and could be easily construed as being somehow "unfair" to those who are looking for such unfairness.
But in reality it's not unfair, it's just a simple manifestation of the gender breakdown based on the pure statistics.

I'd argue that the opposite is the case. For a long time I've seen many females getting spotlighted because, whilst they may have done something cool, the media angle has been focused on the "female in tech" angle, and that's the real reason they got the spotlight. It makes for a novel media angle.

One could even argue that females have potentially more opportunity than males in engineering.

Hi Dave,

I think you may have misunderstood what I meant. I didn't mean women engineers are underrepresented in the press, I just meant as numbers in the workforce. Engineering is as you point out a very male dominated profession but there's no reason it should be more so than any other profession other than peoples perception of engineering maybe puts some women off choosing it as a career. Certainly anybody working as an engineer should be judged wholly on their merit and gender should have no impact on their influence or their opportunities in their career. However, this is definitely not always the case. For example, as part of my job, when dealing with a representative of a company who provide certain development tools our software engineers use, whenever I contact him in order to obtain a quote or ask about a technical issue, will always direct his reply to one of my male colleagues.

My point was, the article referenced by the OP is a non-issue, and the OP's continual reference to our genetalia is more than a little ridiculous. I agree there are better ways to deal with any perceived imbalance in the workforce and as I said in my original post, I don't think it'll make any difference whatsoever in the long run anyway.

My only objection here is your final line, I really don't think we have more opportunities than our male colleagues.

Best Regards,

Rachael
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: BillB on July 27, 2018, 01:25:26 am
An interesting study that has garnered some press lately:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797617741719?journalCode=pssa (http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797617741719?journalCode=pssa)

Example press:

The more gender equality a society has, the fewer women in STEM.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/)

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rachaelp on July 27, 2018, 01:30:47 am
One could even argue that females have potentially more opportunity than males in engineering.
Indeed, and even more.

There are special STEM programs in lower grade schools now targeting just for the females. Programs not available to little boys, who just get the regular core.

I didn't know this was happening. I agree all children should have exactly the same opportunities. There should not be special STEM programs only available for girls, all opportunities should be open to all. There's nothing wrong with encouraging girls to partake in these programs but they should be freely available to all.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on July 27, 2018, 02:24:34 am
Now we get reverse discrimination were men are being discriminated against because of their gender. It's not making things better.
Both "sides" should just stop it.


A friend of mine is a manager at a large tech company which I will not name here. In the quest to boost diversity they have ended up with a policy where management bonuses are partially tied to the diversity of the teams. This has led to a situation where he is *required* by policy of the management above him to interview a woman or minority for any open position, and to hire a white/male they have to be demonstrably better than any of the "diversity candidates" that are submitted, ie the bar is higher, all else being equal the diversity candidate will get the job. He had an amusing story recently about an internal recruiter sending him resumes with foreign sounding names in hopes of finding a suitable diversity candidate, a number of them turned out to be people from Scandinavian countries which as one might expect turned out to be white.

So yes, men are absolutely being discriminated against for their gender, it's not "reverse discrimination", it's discrimination. Company sanctioned, and in fact encouraged gender discrimination.

Yes the industry has been largely male-dominated for a long time, but I have never personally witnessed discrimination against women. When I was part of the hiring/interview loop at one of the places I worked easily 95% of the resumes we got came from men. Remarkably we had about 25% women on the team despite this. Gender simply was not something I was concerned with, if they impressed me with their competency and I liked their personality I gave the thumbs up, simple as that. My observation is that the teams are very welcoming to women, we *like* working with a diverse collection of people, but we can't hire people who don't apply so if 95% of applicants are men then the company will be male dominated.

On the other hand, veterinary medicine is the field my other half is in and it is hugely female dominated. All but one of the doctors at her clinic are women and about 90% of the vet techs. There isn't a lot of money in that industry though so nobody seems to care about the lack of diversity.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on July 27, 2018, 02:30:04 am
On the other hand, veterinary medicine is the field my other half is in and it is hugely female dominated. All but one of the doctors at her clinic are women and about 90% of the vet techs. There isn't a lot of money in that industry though so nobody seems to care about the lack of diversity.
Well, FWIW (human) nursing is a totally female-dominated field, and they do indeed give stark preference to male applicants. (Both in hiring as well as in admissions to nursing programs.)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on July 27, 2018, 02:35:26 am
I don't consider that any more acceptable. Why should either gender get preference in any field? Hire based on merit, gender is irrelevant. Equality means equally valued, it doesn't mean a perfectly equal gender/race ratios. I don't understand why the concept that some topics may appeal on average more to one gender than another is offensive to some, it doesn't mean someone of the other gender can't be interested in it. Statistically not a lot of women are into football or car racing, not a lot of men are into cosmetics or high end handbags, so what? People are allowed to be interested (or not interested) in anything they want, do we need to try to force an equal balance?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on July 27, 2018, 03:08:04 am
I suspect the reason there aren't many women is the same reason a lot of men steer clear of eng or science degrees - endless swathes of theoretical maths that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject in question.

An exercise akin to memorising the telephone book - except that being able to recall any phone number in the region might actually be more useful.

Women tend to be more pragmatic about such things, as in  'I can't see the point in that'  and walk away.  :-//
Could you identify some of this irrelevant maths for the rest of us?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on July 27, 2018, 03:13:59 am
On the other hand, veterinary medicine is the field my other half is in and it is hugely female dominated. All but one of the doctors at her clinic are women and about 90% of the vet techs. There isn't a lot of money in that industry though so nobody seems to care about the lack of diversity.
Well, FWIW (human) nursing is a totally female-dominated field, and they do indeed give stark preference to male applicants. (Both in hiring as well as in admissions to nursing programs.)
Its not just nursing. Women now outnumber men in pretty much every area of life sciences. In places like veterinary schools there are hardly any men. In (human) medical schools women somewhat outnumber men. In most biology classes women considerably outnumber men. A lot of women with rather personal medical problems used to complain that they'd rather see a woman doctor, but couldn't find one. With current trends there will probably me a lot of men in the converse position in a decade or two.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: ajb on July 27, 2018, 04:02:51 am
I've seen practically no discrimination towards females in the industry in my 30 years, just because they are female, other factors are vastly more important than gender.

I certainly believe that you've seen no discrimination, but that in and of itself is part of the problem.  As men in the industry human beings we tend not to see things that don't have any impact on us.  That doesn't mean it's not happening, and even if you're in a workplace that legitimately is the perfect model of acceptance and non-discrimination that neglects the entire larger culture that has produced the overall gender imbalance in the first place.  Children get molded into normative gender roles from an incredibly early age, and through their entire lives are subtly and not-so-subtly nudged back into their "boy" and "girl" boxes whenever they stray.  I've heard stories from tons of women I know about how they were dissuaded or mocked for being interested in STEM topics, or how they were assumed to be less capable in those subjects, likewise for some of the other minority folks I know.   I'm glad that rachaelp is here to provide a first-hand account of how those biases manifest even in a professional setting.

To put a finer point on it: if you're a guy in the industry, saying "I've seen no gender discrimination..." is worse than useless.  Listen (REALLY LISTEN!) to women in the industry, let them frame the conversation, and leave your irrelevant personal experience at the door. 
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: CopperCone on July 27, 2018, 04:47:56 am
On the other hand, veterinary medicine is the field my other half is in and it is hugely female dominated. All but one of the doctors at her clinic are women and about 90% of the vet techs. There isn't a lot of money in that industry though so nobody seems to care about the lack of diversity.
Well, FWIW (human) nursing is a totally female-dominated field, and they do indeed give stark preference to male applicants. (Both in hiring as well as in admissions to nursing programs.)
Its not just nursing. Women now outnumber men in pretty much every area of life sciences. In places like veterinary schools there are hardly any men. In (human) medical schools women somewhat outnumber men. In most biology classes women considerably outnumber men. A lot of women with rather personal medical problems used to complain that they'd rather see a woman doctor, but couldn't find one. With current trends there will probably me a lot of men in the converse position in a decade or two.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/johnnybravo/images/b/bb/Johnnyb001.gif/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20120620184904)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: bsfeechannel on July 27, 2018, 05:40:03 am
People are allowed to be interested (or not interested) in anything they want, do we need to try to force an equal balance?

This issue is not new. When Achilles was born, the oracle told his mother that he would be a famous warrior but would die young. She did everything she could to avoid this fate. She even disguised him as a daughter of the king of Skyros. But that didn't work. He ended up getting one of his "sisters" pregnant and, knowing where he was hidden, Odysseus and other leaders at the Trojan War went there disguised themselves as merchants and offered gifts, adornments, clothes as well as tools and weapons. The only "woman" interested in swords was Achilles. This is my favorite rendition of the scene:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Jan_de_Bray%2C_Achilles_w%C5%9Br%C3%B3d_c%C3%B3rek_Likomedesa_%28Owidiusz%2C_Metamorfozy%29.jpg/1024px-Jan_de_Bray%2C_Achilles_w%C5%9Br%C3%B3d_c%C3%B3rek_Likomedesa_%28Owidiusz%2C_Metamorfozy%29.jpg)
Source: Wikipedia

Achilles, dressed like a woman, holding a sword and being exposed by the "merchants", is seen by the astonished eyes of everyone but not by pregnant sister, who is not the least bit surprised. LOL.

This ancient myth shows that if Achilles was really a girl, and got interested in war, he wouldn't be able to avoid that. Except for social conventions.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on July 27, 2018, 06:18:00 am
I've seen practically no discrimination towards females in the industry in my 30 years, just because they are female, other factors are vastly more important than gender.

To put a finer point on it: if you're a guy in the industry, saying "I've seen no gender discrimination..." is worse than useless.  Listen (REALLY LISTEN!) to women in the industry, let them frame the conversation, and leave your irrelevant personal experience at the door.

of course if he had said he had seen lots of discrimination his personal experience would have been very relevant....




Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: CopperCone on July 27, 2018, 06:21:10 am
img

Johnny Bravo is in the crosshairs, yo!

johnny bravo is in a vet school
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: ebastler on July 27, 2018, 06:25:28 am
To put a finer point on it: if you're a guy in the industry, saying "I've seen no gender discrimination..." is worse than useless.  Listen (REALLY LISTEN!) to women in the industry, let them frame the conversation, and leave your irrelevant personal experience at the door.
of course if he had said he had seen lots of discrimination his personal experience would have been very relevant....

I know you mean to be cynical there, but you may inadvertently be right:

The situation is indeed asymmetrical. If discrimination is so obvious that (even) a member of the majority notices it, that says something. In contrast, if a member of the majority states "I don't see any discrimination", that does not say a whole lot. See?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on July 27, 2018, 06:45:43 am
To put a finer point on it: if you're a guy in the industry, saying "I've seen no gender discrimination..." is worse than useless.  Listen (REALLY LISTEN!) to women in the industry, let them frame the conversation, and leave your irrelevant personal experience at the door.
of course if he had said he had seen lots of discrimination his personal experience would have been very relevant....

I know you mean to be cynical there, but you may inadvertently be right:

The situation is indeed asymmetrical. If discrimination is so obvious that (even) a member of the majority notices it, that says something. In contrast, if a member of the majority states "I don't see any discrimination", that does not say a whole lot. See?


my point was more that if you have already made up you mind that there must be discrimination and dismiss anyone that says otherwise
as irrelevant it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: ajb on July 27, 2018, 07:02:06 am
my point was more that if you have already made up you mind that there must be discrimination and dismiss anyone that says otherwise
as irrelevant it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy
Personally, I've made up my mind that there's discrimination against women in STEM because, leaving aside the tremendous gender gap, plenty of WOMEN have said that there is, and I've heard plenty of first-hand stories from women that I know personally.  So when a man marches into the conversation and says, "Well *I* haven't *personally* seen any discrimination, so what's the big deal?", then his opinion goes straight into the bin where it belongs.  Now, if a guy comes in and says "I don't have the experience of a woman in tech so I'll pay close attention to what women have to say and maybe learn about things that I'm missing or that have a bigger impact on a person than I realized", then there's an opportunity to get somewhere.  Bottom line: don't speak with authority unless you have the experience to back it up, and if you're in the overwhelming majority, then you need to make space for people who aren't, ESPECIALLY when discussing things that specifically affect those in minorities.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on July 27, 2018, 07:09:04 am
To put a finer point on it: if you're a guy in the industry, saying "I've seen no gender discrimination..." is worse than useless.  Listen (REALLY LISTEN!) to women in the industry, let them frame the conversation, and leave your irrelevant personal experience at the door.
of course if he had said he had seen lots of discrimination his personal experience would have been very relevant....

I know you mean to be cynical there, but you may inadvertently be right:

The situation is indeed asymmetrical. If discrimination is so obvious that (even) a member of the majority notices it, that says something. In contrast, if a member of the majority states "I don't see any discrimination", that does not say a whole lot. See?
What does it say? If discrimination is obvious, that doesn't mean it is commonplace. In fact, the most obvious discrimination seems to be when one bad actor, out of step with the majority of people around them, acts in a discriminatory manner.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: gkeeth on July 27, 2018, 07:31:59 am
To put a finer point on it: if you're a guy in the industry, saying "I've seen no gender discrimination..." is worse than useless.  Listen (REALLY LISTEN!) to women in the industry, let them frame the conversation, and leave your irrelevant personal experience at the door.
of course if he had said he had seen lots of discrimination his personal experience would have been very relevant....

I know you mean to be cynical there, but you may inadvertently be right:

The situation is indeed asymmetrical. If discrimination is so obvious that (even) a member of the majority notices it, that says something. In contrast, if a member of the majority states "I don't see any discrimination", that does not say a whole lot. See?


my point was more that if you have already made up you mind that there must be discrimination and dismiss anyone that says otherwise
as irrelevant it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy


Your point was clear; ebastler was pointing out the problem with that sentiment.

If you have already made up your mind that the discrimination does not exist, and dismiss those who have experienced it and insist it does exist, then the discrimination continues without the "majority" (for lack of a better term) realizing or believing it exists.

To put a finer point on it: if you're a guy in the industry, saying "I've seen no gender discrimination..." is worse than useless.  Listen (REALLY LISTEN!) to women in the industry, let them frame the conversation, and leave your irrelevant personal experience at the door.
of course if he had said he had seen lots of discrimination his personal experience would have been very relevant....

I know you mean to be cynical there, but you may inadvertently be right:

The situation is indeed asymmetrical. If discrimination is so obvious that (even) a member of the majority notices it, that says something. In contrast, if a member of the majority states "I don't see any discrimination", that does not say a whole lot. See?
What does it say? If discrimination is obvious, that doesn't mean it is commonplace. In fact, the most obvious discrimination seems to be when one bad actor, out of step with the majority of people around them, acts in a discriminatory manner.


I agree with your assertion that the most obvious discrimination comes from "one bad actor." However, based on my conversations with women who have experienced discrimination in stem, most discrimination is commonplace but NOT obvious -- the discriminators (and they're not just men) probably don't even realize they're discriminating! Once some of these subtle forms of discrimination were pointed out to me, I've caught myself in the act on more than one occasion. This stuff is not uncommon.

I don't know that one kind of discrimination (subtle vs nonsubtle) is better than the other, but neither is great...
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on July 27, 2018, 07:46:27 am
my point was more that if you have already made up you mind that there must be discrimination and dismiss anyone that says otherwise
as irrelevant it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy
Personally, I've made up my mind that there's discrimination against women in STEM because, leaving aside the tremendous gender gap, plenty of WOMEN have said that there is, and I've heard plenty of first-hand stories from women that I know personally.  So when a man marches into the conversation and says, "Well *I* haven't *personally* seen any discrimination, so what's the big deal?", then his opinion goes straight into the bin where it belongs.  Now, if a guy comes in and says "I don't have the experience of a woman in tech so I'll pay close attention to what women have to say and maybe learn about things that I'm missing or that have a bigger impact on a person than I realized", then there's an opportunity to get somewhere.  Bottom line: don't speak with authority unless you have the experience to back it up, and if you're in the overwhelming majority, then you need to make space for people who aren't, ESPECIALLY when discussing things that specifically affect those in minorities.

and if a women said it she would probably be dismissed too


Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on July 27, 2018, 08:16:50 am
I agree with your assertion that the most obvious discrimination comes from "one bad actor." However, based on my conversations with women who have experienced discrimination in stem, most discrimination is commonplace but NOT obvious -- the discriminators (and they're not just men) probably don't even realize they're discriminating! Once some of these subtle forms of discrimination were pointed out to me, I've caught myself in the act on more than one occasion. This stuff is not uncommon.

I don't know that one kind of discrimination (subtle vs nonsubtle) is better than the other, but neither is great...
I have listened to quite a number of women engineer's grievances about how they are treated, and the worst of the off hand assumptions they have faced are from other women in non-technical roles - secretaries and HR staff being probably the worst offenders. They have far fewer complaints about male engineers than about women non-engineers. Some of the complaints about men they do have seem to be a matter of perception. For example, women sometimes say they are not listened to in meetings, while a man saying essentially the same thing later in the meeting is listened to. When you ask them to watch for the smartest man in the room suffering the same issue in future meetings, and they do, their attitude often changes. Presenting a great idea too early frequently gets you nowhere. Once the rest of the room has heard enough to catch up, the same idea is seen in a different light. However, if you expect prejudice against you, its easy to read prejudice into this kind of behaviour.

I have never been involved in recruiting where there were more than a couple of percent of CVs from women in the pile. Its usually highest if you are accepting applications from fresh graduates. Most people, men and women, working through the CVs will pick out the women for particular discussion, much as they would pick out any other CVs with an uncommon aspect to them - people who started late in life, had a difficult journey through life, have had a very mixed career, etc. In general the women are treated favourably, because most people would like their department to be a little more mixed than the usual arrangement where the only diversity is whether a person is happier doing digital or analogue work. I'm not sure how the actual hiring record has gone overall, but I do know the women have been a lot more likely to be called for interview than a man with an otherwise similar CV.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: John B on July 27, 2018, 08:56:16 am
When people use the words "representation" or "under-representation", I am consistently disappointed to see that people that should be analytical due to their profession, fail to see the flaw in the argument.

The question when talking about representation, is what is the set of people that is being represented? If you collect all the factors that could contribute to the likelihood of someone being an engineer/scientist/<insert profession>:

Then why would anyone make the assumption that the set of people that fit these criteria, would be the same set as the general population? Especially when there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Of course other factors will be brought up, such as lifestyle and whether or not someone plays with dolls as a kid, but the argument remains unchanged.

I also think that people know that the argument is weak given how selectively it is applied. Therefore the success of the argument is due to the emotional impact and cultural zeitgeist rather than the logical strength of the argument. Using the "general population set" argument, there are many fields where males are "under-represented" by the same reasoning. Someone earlier mentioned veterinary fields - it reminds me of a real funny story a while ago:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/08/sydney-university-under-fire-for-vet-scholarship-giving-preference-to-males (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/08/sydney-university-under-fire-for-vet-scholarship-giving-preference-to-males)

A private scholarship donor requested that a preference to male applicants from a rural background, as there is a shortage of vets in rural areas for agricultural medicine. Veterinary medicine is >90% female, who then overwhelming go on to work in city vet practices, where there is much more interpersonal interaction with pet owners, more appealing and comfortable lifestyle, air conditioned offices etc. Vets who treat cows, horses and sheep (ie the whole arm up the rectum type work) in rural areas are overwhelmingly male. So not only was there very pragmatic reasons to give preference to a male applicant in a rural area, but all the same reasoning was valid if the sexes were to be flipped. Yet despite that.....well read the hypocrisy for yourself.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: John B on July 27, 2018, 09:01:44 am
Bottom line: don't speak with authority unless you have the experience to back it up, and if you're in the overwhelming majority, then you need to make space for people who aren't, ESPECIALLY when discussing things that specifically affect those in minorities.

Is this a majority group of the general population or a majority group of engineers now? Lol.

Pick and choose, pick and choose......
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Bassman59 on July 27, 2018, 09:26:47 am
my point was more that if you have already made up you mind that there must be discrimination and dismiss anyone that says otherwise
as irrelevant it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy
Personally, I've made up my mind that there's discrimination against women in STEM because, leaving aside the tremendous gender gap, plenty of WOMEN have said that there is, and I've heard plenty of first-hand stories from women that I know personally.  So when a man marches into the conversation and says, "Well *I* haven't *personally* seen any discrimination, so what's the big deal?", then his opinion goes straight into the bin where it belongs.  Now, if a guy comes in and says "I don't have the experience of a woman in tech so I'll pay close attention to what women have to say and maybe learn about things that I'm missing or that have a bigger impact on a person than I realized", then there's an opportunity to get somewhere.  Bottom line: don't speak with authority unless you have the experience to back it up, and if you're in the overwhelming majority, then you need to make space for people who aren't, ESPECIALLY when discussing things that specifically affect those in minorities.

I agree.

And it must be said: there's a whole lotta mansplainin' going on in this thread.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on July 27, 2018, 10:06:58 am
my point was more that if you have already made up you mind that there must be discrimination and dismiss anyone that says otherwise
as irrelevant it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy
Personally, I've made up my mind that there's discrimination against women in STEM because, leaving aside the tremendous gender gap, plenty of WOMEN have said that there is, and I've heard plenty of first-hand stories from women that I know personally.  So when a man marches into the conversation and says, "Well *I* haven't *personally* seen any discrimination, so what's the big deal?", then his opinion goes straight into the bin where it belongs.  Now, if a guy comes in and says "I don't have the experience of a woman in tech so I'll pay close attention to what women have to say and maybe learn about things that I'm missing or that have a bigger impact on a person than I realized", then there's an opportunity to get somewhere.  Bottom line: don't speak with authority unless you have the experience to back it up, and if you're in the overwhelming majority, then you need to make space for people who aren't, ESPECIALLY when discussing things that specifically affect those in minorities.

I agree.

And it must be said: there's a whole lotta mansplainin' going on in this thread.

mansplainin'? really?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: forrestc on July 27, 2018, 10:19:22 am
My $0.02:

It appears to me that a large portion of the problem has more to do with the mistaken perception that if a field is dominated by men or women, that there must be discrimination going on.

I think a lot of the mismatches have more to do with traditional gender roles which we aren't that far removed from time-wise.   A girl might look at engineering as something that boys do and then decide to do something else which is traditionally female dominated.   Same for a boy who is interested in nursing or some other traditionally female-dominated area.   This results in a continuing mismatch of qualified male vs female job applicants in those fields - and subsequently results in a similar ratio among the people who have jobs.

A lot of the social-justice-warrior types seem to think that a 50/50 ratio is the only acceptable ratio.   I'd argue that the correct ratio is roughly equivalent to the ratio of qualified job applicants.   And that if we are to do any work on gender equality, it should be more geared toward encouraging individuals to follow their dreams and help them to understand that it really doesn't matter whether you're a male or female or any of the other categories that people lump people into.  It is my opinion that we're already heading in that direction - one only has to compare the ratios of men vs female in the tech industries to see that the trend is going in the right direction.   

Please don't interpret the above to mean that I don't think discrimination exists.   It does.   I just don't think that it's the main problem anymore - instead it's mostly the issue of convincing underrepresented groups to give something outside the traditional roles a try.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on July 27, 2018, 10:43:08 am
plenty of proper studies out there, but here we are on a tech forum that values rigorous analysis of issues, and all we have is a bunch of guys claiming that discrimination can't exist "because I don't see it"... or "because I had a women boss once"... or "I'm pretty sure women just don't want to be engineers"

have some science, guys.
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474 (http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474)
this is just one paper, but you'll find this experiment is pretty solidly done, and overwhelmingly showing that women are discriminated against in STEM (by men *and* women) and the fundamental nature of the findings point to a pretty universal relevance.

Even Nature acknowledged that the rating of papers for its own publication has systemic bias against women, where they at least identified a need to try and balance things to make their publication more fair.
https://www.nature.com/news/nature-s-sexism-1.11850 (https://www.nature.com/news/nature-s-sexism-1.11850)

So... we actually know that due to some combination of cultural expectations, we (as in all of us) exhibit real measurable bias against women in STEM professions (I'd say all technical professions) where women are consistently undervalued compared to men.

Does this mean no woman can ever succeed or get a promotion? of course not. it just means that many women have additional barriers to their career than many men do. Lots of little evaluations where they are shortchanged a little bit. (and then there's the actual aggressive/abusive a-hole guys that still exist and are more or less tolerated still, but this isn't even about them... we can talk about silicon valley's aggressive abusive woman hating bro culture later if you'd like.. uber is famous for it, but really it's present in all the big names)

So, the question becomes - what do we do about it?

Personally I think affirmative action (just hiring x% women for roles, etc.. ) can be problematic too... it's an ugly kludge. a hack.

BUT when you are dealing with a systemic issue that does exist, and shows that we consistently are *already* raising up people who are not the most qualified or doing the best work, then what exactly is the loss?

Do we just look at the solution we could use, and decide we'd rather just ignore the problem and say "well I don't see the problem so it's not one" like a few people on here want to - or do we have a go at patching it as best we reasonably can, and move on. In the future we might come up with a better fix (or experimental evidence starts to show that the fix isn't doing what's expected, or it shows society change enough that the fix isn't needed anymore) so we can change stuff around again then? 

Anyway - going back from full on affirmative action, and back to the subject of the original post - I don't see the original issue in this post as anything but good. this is *one* issue of *one* industry mag, that's going to be celebrating stuff that women engineers have done. (Because from the study above, we know that normally their published articles will not cover the very best and most deserving of the subjects they could... they will to some degree prioritise the celebration of the work of men) Maybe people will see it and they will see real examples of women do go great work in tech fields, and maybe a little bit of unconscious bias in some of the readers will shift?


also, for people who love anecdotes:
https://www.guernicamag.com/rebecca-solnit-men-explain-things-to-me/ (https://www.guernicamag.com/rebecca-solnit-men-explain-things-to-me/)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on July 27, 2018, 11:31:44 am
Personally, I've made up my mind that there's discrimination against women in STEM because, leaving aside the tremendous gender gap, plenty of WOMEN have said that there is, and I've heard plenty of first-hand stories from women that I know personally.  So when a man marches into the conversation and says, "Well *I* haven't *personally* seen any discrimination, so what's the big deal?", then his opinion goes straight into the bin where it belongs.  Now, if a guy comes in and says "I don't have the experience of a woman in tech so I'll pay close attention to what women have to say and maybe learn about things that I'm missing or that have a bigger impact on a person than I realized", then there's an opportunity to get somewhere.  Bottom line: don't speak with authority unless you have the experience to back it up, and if you're in the overwhelming majority, then you need to make space for people who aren't, ESPECIALLY when discussing things that specifically affect those in minorities.


Well, I have personally seen gender discrimination, as detailed in my previous post about the managers that are required to hire minority candidates if they can. The bar is literally lower for women and minorities when all else is equal, because management bonuses are tied to diversity stats, men are actively discriminated against.

Of course many will jump to defend this with "But men have had advantages previously.." yadda yadda, well yes, to some degree they have, but that doesn't suddenly make retaliatory discrimination ok. That doesn't solve anything.

The fact that at one of my previous employers we had around 95% male applicants with about 25-30% female hires also suggests discrimination. Now don't get me wrong, I liked nearly all of the people I worked with regardless of gender, but I'm just not seeing this anti-women bias. The only gender discrimination I've ever witnessed in STEM has been the other way around. That's not to say it doesn't happen somewhere, but it is certainly not the norm around here.

Then there is the rather amusing paradox where many of the same people claiming gender discrimination also claim there is a wage gap. Seems logical to me though that if a company could hire women to do the same job and pay them less, they would hire entire teams of women and save a bundle. Companies do everything they can to save money and that would be a really obvious one if there was actually a wage gap when looking at the same job with the same skillset.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on July 27, 2018, 11:53:19 am
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474 (http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474)

There is an unspoken assumption underlying this paper. That with the same application and only the knowledge of the gender, a man could not be be judged on average more competent and hireable simply for being a man.

Men have certain advantages over women on average. We have larger organs, which makes us hardier and less likely to miss work days. We don't have monthly hormonal cycles screwing with our performance. Most importantly, if we are in a relationship and make a baby we aren't biologically forced to take time off and culturally we are much less likely to quit our jobs to take care of it (in that respect Sweden's approach of giving men a huge chunk of take it or leave it parental leave helps a fair bit). Do women also have some inherent advantages because of their different emotional makeup, sure but I don't think they can really compensate.

Someone making a decision whether to hire someone and how much to invest in someone has to do probabilistic optimization if he wants to get best result, they don't have an oracle to judge a person with complete knowledge. All else in their application being equal, men are generally better employees simply because of biology and the cultural imperative for women to raise children. An inconvenient truth ... Bayesian mathematics is sexist.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on July 27, 2018, 12:42:54 pm
There is an unspoken assumption underlying this paper. That with the same application and only the knowledge of the gender, a man could not be be judged on average more competent and hireable simply for being a man.

err.. no, that's not an unspoken assumption.

It's the the actual finding of the experiment that the paper is reporting.

Quote
Men have certain advantages over women on average. We have larger organs, which makes us hardier and less likely to miss work days.

You're gonna need to provide a good source on the missing work days thing, thanks.

As for anything else, well... have another science:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270278/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270278/)
lots of rambling in here, and lots of superficial referring to all sorts of stuff as it's obviously an insanely complex issue.
But the takeaway is that while yes - the best performing men do have better results in some basic capabilities than the best women, the worst performing men are also worse than the worst women, and as you approach the averages of both, differences in any natural ability of one binary sex/binary gender over another basically disappear.

Quote
We don't have monthly hormonal cycles screwing with our performance.

Errr...... yeah...... ok.
*backs away very slowly*

Quote
Most importantly, if we are in a relationship and make a baby we aren't biologically forced to take time off

A woman performing a generally non-physical role can give birth and be back at work (if given proper support) in less than a month.
Any details around supply of that support come back to the value we as a society place on people having children.

Quote
and culturally we are much less likely to quit our jobs to take care of it (in that respect Sweden's approach of giving men a huge chunk of take it or leave it parental leave helps a fair bit). Do women also have some inherent advantages because of their different emotional makeup, sure but I don't think they can really compensate.

All else being equal, men are generally better employees simply because of biology and the cultural imperative for women to raise children. An inconvenient truth.

So you agree with us that women are ripped off, in the professional world, by society's expectations of what a woman is and does?
and so, as it's a societal/cultural thing, that's basically just a bunch of conventions?
and so, as we now see it's harmful, as we are the actual building blocks of society, we can choose to make an effort to change those expectations?

Great!

I look forward to you doing what you can in the future to address those problems with practical direct action.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: amyk on July 27, 2018, 12:46:25 pm
Speaking of which, this forum seems to have far less than 10% female members. Is that "based on the pure statistics" as well? Or is there a feedback mechanism, where the predominantly male audience sets a certain tone which does not encourage female engineers to join? Nothing intentional, I'm sure -- but those who make up the majority in a group may be less tuned in to signals which the group sends to minorities.
The only mention of gender in this forum is in threads like this, and when someone chooses to exclaim "I'm female!" Other than that it stays pretty much focused on electronics --- no one here cares in the slightest if you're female, male, something in between, or a dog (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog).
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on July 27, 2018, 12:54:44 pm
The only mention of gender in this forum is in threads like this, and when someone chooses to exclaim "I'm female!" Other than that it stays pretty much focused on electronics --- no one here cares in the slightest if you're female, male, something in between, or a dog (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog).

That reflects my professional experience too for the most part, except for when someone decides we have to try to force some specific metric of diversity by whatever means possible.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on July 27, 2018, 02:46:59 pm
err.. no, that's not an unspoken assumption.
Sorry, I meant could correctly be judged.
Quote
You're gonna need to provide a good source on the missing work days thing, thanks.
http://norden.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:811504/FULLTEXT06.pdf (http://norden.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:811504/FULLTEXT06.pdf)
"The sickness absence patterns between demo graphic groups are to a high degree similar in the Nordic countries. In general, women have more sickness absence than men."
Quote
Errr...... yeah...... ok.
*backs away very slowly*
https://www.jcpsp.pk/archive/2008/Aug2008/05.pdf (https://www.jcpsp.pk/archive/2008/Aug2008/05.pdf)
"Study participants (n=172) had mean age of 21.2 + 1.9 years. Eighty-nine (51%) girls met the criteria for PMS recording  to  ICD  –  10,  among  them,  53  (59.5%)  had  mild  PMS,  26  (29.2%)  had  moderate  and  10  (11.2%)  had  severe PMS. Ten (5.8%) girls were found to have Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder (PMDD) according to DSM – IV criteria. The order  of  frequency  of  symptoms  were  anger,  irritability,  anxiety,  tiredness,  difficult  concentration,  mood  swings  and physical symptoms like breast tenderness and general body discomfort with great impairment in social life / activities and work  efficiency/productivity."
Quote
A woman performing a generally non-physical role can give birth and be back at work (if given proper support) in less than a month.
If she doesn't have post partum depression, for which the aftermath of the hormonal war she waged with her baby won't help (humans have some really screwed up evolutionary quirks in their reproductive mechanics, women get the worst of it).
Quote
So you agree with us that women are ripped off, in the professional world, by society's expectations of what a woman is and does?
Possibly, but part of it is due to the reality of the statistics of what women do (https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/04/why-43-of-women-with-children-leave-their-jobs-and-how-to-get-them-back/275134/). There are few managers who haven't been bit by the reality of young women, maternal leave and the frequent decision to become home makers. Their job isn't to create more equality, their job is to value signal an interest in equality only to the extent necessary for profit optimization.
Quote
and so, as we now see it's harmful, as we are the actual building blocks of society, we can choose to make an effort to change those expectations?
Maybe, but I find regulation often far more harmful than anything it tries to fix. Give men equal subsidized leave to women, I don't care. Have companies value signal to their heart's content, I don't care. The moment you want courts and lawmakers to step in to punish companies for not having the correct wages or diversity according to you, then you get my enmity.

I don't see professional success as all that important in personal actualization. I think the opportunity to become a home maker, western culture and wealth provides many women isn't exactly ripping them off. Sucks for the ones who do want to find it in professional success of course, who will be bit by the statistics and profit optimization, but life can't always be fair. The liberal pretence that it can be is a dangerous fantasy. They would bring us all to a lowest common denominator with no freedom, to achieve equality. Communism.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on July 27, 2018, 06:31:03 pm

I don't see professional success as all that important in personal actualization. I think the opportunity to become a home maker, western culture and wealth provides many women isn't exactly ripping them off. Sucks for the ones who do want to find it in professional success of course, who will be bit by the statistics and profit optimization, but life can't always be fair. The liberal pretence that it can be is a dangerous fantasy. They would bring us all to a lowest common denominator with no freedom, to achieve equality. Communism.

Amen.

Life is not fair and the universe is indifferent. You get what you get, at best we can try to level the playing field and apply the same rules of the game to everyone.
Group identity is a misguided concept because a person is such a complex construct that you simply cannot define it as a subset of traits. The one that is best capable of helping you is you. I understand the need from certain people to act against perceived 'injustice' but what they often forget is that every affirmative action will lead to discrimination against another individual.  Two wrongs don't make a right and this is especially true for 'perceived wrongs'.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2018, 07:51:25 pm
But has it crossed your mind that the "90% male" environment might actually put talented young females off, and make them decide for a different career?

There is no shortage of females being profiled for girls to look up to if they want. It often only takes one person to encourage someone.
The current Australian of the year for example is a female quantum computer scientist.
Of course this is assuming that's it's a good thing that girls only look up to and encouraged by other girls, I'd like to think engineering is above that.

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And wouldn't it be worth some time and effort to change that perception, also by giving above-average visibility to women in engineering, to encourage potential female students to study technical disciplines?

Not if it means someone else deserves it more misses out.

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Speaking of which, this forum seems to have far less than 10% female members. Is that "based on the pure statistics" as well?

Yes, it it.
Ask anyone in the engineering Youtube space what their female viewership is and they'll tell you it's under 5%.
And that's for viewers of Youtube videos were there is absolutely no peer pressure at all, you either like to watch that content or you don't, and it's still under 5%

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Or is there a feedback mechanism, where the predominantly male audience sets a certain tone which does not encourage female engineers to join? Nothing intentional, I'm sure -- but those who make up the majority in a group may be less tuned in to signals which the group sends to minorities.

See above comment.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2018, 07:59:59 pm
Hi Dave,
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant. I didn't mean women engineers are underrepresented in the press, I just meant as numbers in the workforce. Engineering is as you point out a very male dominated profession but there's no reason it should be more so than any other profession other than peoples perception of engineering maybe puts some women off choosing it as a career.

That's not the case. Read the scientific literature on the matter and you'll find that women aren't as innately interested in "things" as males are.
It's quite a well researched topic.
This is why you'll never get 50/50 no matter how hard you try. Just like you won't get 50/50 in nursing or child care.

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My point was, the article referenced by the OP is a non-issue, and the OP's continual reference to our genetalia is more than a little ridiculous.

I agree it's non issues, but I do understand the intent of the OP. Gender politics in recent years has infested many areas or society, often to an extreme, and many people are getting sick of it.

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My only objection here is your final line, I really don't think we have more opportunities than our male colleagues.

Really?
Here in Australia you have your own startup accelerator - woman only.
https://www.shestarts.com/ (https://www.shestarts.com/)

Not to mention the media will love you. Do you think the uBeam or Theronos founders would have been features nearly as much if they weren't attractive young females? The media lap it up.
Women certainly can have advantages in this field, and my advice is to take every opportunity you can get.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2018, 09:18:31 pm
I've seen practically no discrimination towards females in the industry in my 30 years, just because they are female, other factors are vastly more important than gender.

To put a finer point on it: if you're a guy in the industry, saying "I've seen no gender discrimination..." is worse than useless.  Listen (REALLY LISTEN!) to women in the industry, let them frame the conversation, and leave your irrelevant personal experience at the door.

of course if he had said he had seen lots of discrimination his personal experience would have been very relevant....

Any maybe that's why those female students came to my lab to ask about gender discrimination in the industry...
But ajb likely thinks that was a big mistake on their part because a males almost 30 years experience in the industry has absolutely zero value, less than useless in fact  ::)
And only talking to females about it couldn't possibly lead to any sort of self selection bias, and it has absolutely no chance of putting girls off entering the field if all they hear is horrible stories of discrimination.
And of course there is no way a female could possibly over-exaggerate or mis-interpret discrimination were it didn't exist... you simply must believe them...
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 27, 2018, 09:24:19 pm
I've seen positive discrimation everywhere I've been: when a girl does something wrong, it's alright...
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2018, 09:27:57 pm
I have never been involved in recruiting where there were more than a couple of percent of CVs from women in the pile. Its usually highest if you are accepting applications from fresh graduates. Most people, men and women, working through the CVs will pick out the women for particular discussion, much as they would pick out any other CVs with an uncommon aspect to them - people who started late in life, had a difficult journey through life, have had a very mixed career, etc. In general the women are treated favourably, because most people would like their department to be a little more mixed than the usual arrangement where the only diversity is whether a person is happier doing digital or analogue work. I'm not sure how the actual hiring record has gone overall, but I do know the women have been a lot more likely to be called for interview than a man with an otherwise similar CV.

That's my experience as well. Female applicants were so low that it's "novel" so to speak, it stands out, and I'll have given females interview preference over males due to this. Not at the expense of perceived aptitude/experience of course, but I can't interview everyone, and something novel like being female can often tip you over the edge if you are trying to who to pick. Another potential opportunity benefit to being female in the industry. Not to mention companies that have active policies to "gender balance" groups etc.
Groups I've worked in often have a greater female ratios than the application ratio would suggest.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: ebastler on July 27, 2018, 09:39:27 pm
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Speaking of which, this forum seems to have far less than 10% female members. Is that "based on the pure statistics" as well?

Yes, it is.
Ask anyone in the engineering Youtube space what their female viewership is and they'll tell you it's under 5%.
And that's for viewers of Youtube videos were there is absolutely no peer pressure at all, you either like to watch that content or you don't, and it's still under 5%

That's a valid argument; I had not known that data point. Thanks!

Makes you wonder why female participation in technical forums and Youtube channels (i.e. spare time interest in technical topics) is even lower than their representation in technical professions?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2018, 09:44:56 pm
To put a finer point on it: if you're a guy in the industry, saying "I've seen no gender discrimination..." is worse than useless.  Listen (REALLY LISTEN!) to women in the industry, let them frame the conversation, and leave your irrelevant personal experience at the door.
of course if he had said he had seen lots of discrimination his personal experience would have been very relevant....

I know you mean to be cynical there, but you may inadvertently be right:

The situation is indeed asymmetrical. If discrimination is so obvious that (even) a member of the majority notices it, that says something. In contrast, if a member of the majority states "I don't see any discrimination", that does not say a whole lot. See?
my point was more that if you have already made up you mind that there must be discrimination and dismiss anyone that says otherwise
as irrelevant it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy

And that's something I have seen many times.
I've seen people cry "discrimination" because they are a different ethnicity, or obese, or several other things. Of course it can't possibly be because they were inept at their job, or have bad personality or attitude etc, oh no, you have the "listen and believe" it was because of what they said it was.
And that can't possibly happen with gender discrimination...

Look, I'm not saying there isn't gender discrimination, there is, but if anyone believes people 100% without question then they are as much a part of the problem as apparently the guy who says "I haven't personally seen any gender discrimination".

There is evidence that it's not as bad as it made out, by virtue of greater female ratios in teams than applicants, which seems to be not uncommon. It would be the opposite ratio if there was rampant gender discrimination in the industry. I've seen this dating back to the 80's in various companies I've worked for.

And I do fear that mass promotion of this supposedly "rampant" gender discrimination in the engineering field may just possibly cause many girls to opt out of it. That's why I was happy to have to female students visit my lab and ask about it, so I could reassure them that it's not going to be a hindrance to their career in the field. Because I think that's what they need to hear, positive stories and be encouraged instead of being told horror stories to scare them. Because I got the sense that they had almost been indoctrinated by the university that this was the case, and they seemed relieved when I reassured them it wasn't a big deal. I was quite proud to be able to do that.

And before anyone mentions it, no that's not an excuse to cover up blatant gender discrimination which I am entirely against. If you see real and blatant gender discrimination, speak up. If I ever saw it at any job I was at, loud mouth Dave would have been all over it.
Also, I can't recall experiencing it in any lab "shop talk" between male engineers. No "chicks are just useless at engineering" or whatever. At that's when guy aren't shy to talk about other aspects of girls when "talking shop".
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2018, 09:49:35 pm
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Speaking of which, this forum seems to have far less than 10% female members. Is that "based on the pure statistics" as well?
Yes, it is.
Ask anyone in the engineering Youtube space what their female viewership is and they'll tell you it's under 5%.
And that's for viewers of Youtube videos were there is absolutely no peer pressure at all, you either like to watch that content or you don't, and it's still under 5%
That's a valid argument; I had not known that data point. Thanks!

Here are my stats for the last year. And other Youtubers in the space have similar numbers, without exception.
I'd also bet it's similar for female hosts as well but I have not had that confirmed.
And remember, Youtube is an equal playing field, people watch in private without any pressure from anyone.

(https://i.imgur.com/sBpHQOc.png)


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Makes you wonder why female participation in technical forums and Youtube channels (i.e. spare time interest in technical topics) is even lower than their representation in technical professions?

Yes, it's a very interesting subject. I don't know why it would be lower, totally opposite to what I'd expect.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on July 27, 2018, 10:31:08 pm
Makes you wonder why female participation in technical forums and Youtube channels (i.e. spare time interest in technical topics) is even lower than their representation in technical professions?

I bet you will find an almost perfect one on one correlation with the number of women in 'specialized engineering'.  Forums and special interest youtube channels are most often the places you will find people with special interests. A lot of people are only in engineering for a living, in their free time they end up in very different places.

Dave statistics are just more proof that men in general are far more interested in electrical engineering than women.  Is this a problem? No of course not, it's just nature.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on July 27, 2018, 10:53:34 pm
Makes you wonder why female participation in technical forums and Youtube channels (i.e. spare time interest in technical topics) is even lower than their representation in technical professions?
A large number of the people with engineering degrees in the "technical professions" are in things like sales and marketing. I doubt many of those people participate in forums, unless the forum is on, say, a standard highly relevant to what they are trying to promote. There seem to be far more women in those activities than in the core R&D activities. What do you think the percentage of women in core engineering R&D is these days?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 27, 2018, 11:07:50 pm
In the female column, the higher % are grandmas :-)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: wraper on July 27, 2018, 11:13:54 pm
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Speaking of which, this forum seems to have far less than 10% female members. Is that "based on the pure statistics" as well?

Yes, it is.
Ask anyone in the engineering Youtube space what their female viewership is and they'll tell you it's under 5%.
And that's for viewers of Youtube videos were there is absolutely no peer pressure at all, you either like to watch that content or you don't, and it's still under 5%

That's a valid argument; I had not known that data point. Thanks!

Makes you wonder why female participation in technical forums and Youtube channels (i.e. spare time interest in technical topics) is even lower than their representation in technical professions?
Probably because percentage of female who are involved in electronics/engineering because of calling rather than just for money is much lower than for men.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 27, 2018, 11:56:08 pm
Dave statistics are just more proof that men in general are far more interested in electrical engineering than women.  Is this a problem? No of course not, it's just nature.

Agreed.
There are a great many people who do think it's a problem though, and a problem that needs sometimes extreme measures (as in, ironically, real real active discrimination) to "fix".
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Bud on July 28, 2018, 12:00:17 am
Makes you wonder why female participation in technical forums and Youtube channels (i.e. spare time interest in technical topics) is even lower than their representation in technical professions?

I bet you will find an almost perfect one on one correlation with the number of women in 'specialized engineering'.  Forums and special interest youtube channels are most often the places you will find people with special interests. A lot of people are only in engineering for a living, in their free time they end up in very different places.

Dave statistics are just more proof that men in general are far more interested in electrical engineering than women.  Is this a problem? No of course not, it's just nature.

BS.  EE is not a 'specialized engineering'.

Woman's brain is Wired differently and this is what makes woman woman. Pushing woman forcebly to do stuff they are not interested in will never bring sensible result. We love woman for being irrational and emotional, leave them alone and do not try going against nature. If not agree, why not 'encourage' men to do knitting and see how much success you going to get.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 28, 2018, 12:06:37 am
We love woman for being irrational and emotional, leave them alone and do not try going against nature.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on July 28, 2018, 01:08:49 am
Agreed.
There are a great many people who do think it's a problem though, and a problem that needs sometimes extreme measures (as in, ironically, real real active discrimination) to "fix".

It only seemed to become an issue when the tech industry got big and people started making a lot of money. When I was in school, being interested in computers or electronics was about the most effective girl repellant one could have. I saw a lot of active hostility toward the geeks, dweebs, nerds, etc. That's why I find it somewhat offensive when people suggest that there is some kind of hostility against women from the engineering community, in reality it was the other way around. It's great to see this stigma fading and more women becoming interested in engineering, but it's completely unrealistic to expect a 50/50 ratio and it certainly isn't the engineering community's fault that more women aren't interested.

The notion that it's a matter of encouragement is ridiculous too. Absolutely nobody had to encourage me, it was not a career decision, it has been my life. Since I was old enough to hold a screwdriver I've been taking things apart to see what's inside, much to the annoyance of my dad when I took apart some of his expensive stuff back before I figured out how to put it back together.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Canis Dirus Leidy on July 28, 2018, 01:35:39 am
Other than that it stays pretty much focused on electronics --- no one here cares in the slightest if you're female, male, something in between, or a dog (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog).
Ahem. Not all members of Canidae family are dogs (https://www.deviantart.com/tanidareal/art/Childhood-199794606).

P.S. Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2018, 09:47:47 am
Agreed.
There are a great many people who do think it's a problem though, and a problem that needs sometimes extreme measures (as in, ironically, real real active discrimination) to "fix".

It only seemed to become an issue when the tech industry got big and people started making a lot of money. When I was in school, being interested in computers or electronics was about the most effective girl repellant one could have. I saw a lot of active hostility toward the geeks, dweebs, nerds, etc. That's why I find it somewhat offensive when people suggest that there is some kind of hostility against women from the engineering community

Agreed. It's unlikely you'll get that hostility from a fellow engineer IME
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: b_force on July 28, 2018, 10:06:22 am
I have just read through this thread and I lost my entire hope in objective science.
I have never seen so many completely and utterly subjective and non-scientific arguments all together from either side.  :palm:
It makes me cringe so bad.

The only advice I can give, is to REALLY read a bit more on the subject than just what electronic science has to offer.
Otherwise, please just don't judge anything before you know what you're really talking about.

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on July 28, 2018, 10:10:57 am
Books just have a lot of extra words ... the science is all available on sci-hub.

By adding a lot of words a book doesn't add any more authority to its opinion than any given paper. At best it's just an exceptionally sloppy meta-research paper.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 28, 2018, 03:27:31 pm
The only advice I can give, is to REALLY read a bit more on the subject than just what electronic science has to offer.
Otherwise, please just don't judge anything before you know what you're really talking about.

Err, we all know about engineering and the engineering industry, it's the entire point of this forum.
We also have opinion and various experiences in discrimination in the industry, many of us have worked in it a long time. Even if most of us are male, it doesn't mean we don't understand what goes on, and heck, many of us will have experienced various forms of "discrimination" at some point. Gender is but one form of many types of discrimination.

Why don't you illuminate us on what's really going on?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on July 28, 2018, 03:48:41 pm
Err, we all know about engineering and the engineering industry, it's the entire point of this forum.

To readers of this forum it is easy to think of "the industry" (or "tech"--whatever that is) to be electronics and maybe computing.

My impression is that electronics is very "nerdy" and not so appealing to women. But there is a much bigger world with many more branches of engineering. If you look beyond electronics to mechanical, chemical, civil, aerospace, you may see a different picture. For example, if you watch videos about the construction of Crossrail in London (a huge civil engineering project) you will find women engineers showing up in high-viz jacket, hard hat and doing project management. They are never going to be 50%, but they are represented.

In my own engineering work (not electronics), I have many women colleagues. I don't see any obvious gender bias in hiring decisions. We try to pick the best people and everyone gets on with the job.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: b_force on July 28, 2018, 08:23:19 pm
The only advice I can give, is to REALLY read a bit more on the subject than just what electronic science has to offer.
Otherwise, please just don't judge anything before you know what you're really talking about.

Err, we all know about engineering and the engineering industry, it's the entire point of this forum.
We also have opinion and various experiences in discrimination in the industry, many of us have worked in it a long time. Even if most of us are male, it doesn't mean we don't understand what goes on, and heck, many of us will have experienced various forms of "discrimination" at some point. Gender is but one form of many types of discrimination.

Why don't you illuminate us on what's really going on?
Because I om far from an expert on the psychological aspect of this?
I don't have a problem with sharing experiences or thoughts and coming up with questions.
I do have a problem with some subjective beliefs that are written down as absolute facts.
You don't need to be an expert to see that certain arguments aren't necessarily based on facts.

A friend of mine is actually a scientist in that field (although not a 100% related).
As far as I understand is that the science behind it is rather complicated since both sexes have been taught to fulfill a certain  role in society for so long.
Being in that (artificial) role doesn't automatically mean a person isn't capable of doing something else.
But since there are such heavy social expectations it's almost impossible to distinguish it from the objective reality.
Compare it a bit with a placebo effect. If someone believes strong enough that he/she isn't able to do certain things that becomes reality.

My personal experience is that I don't see much gender discrimination around.
But that really depends on the country i am living in and level of work I realize.
It's a little different for lower class workers or higher up in the organization.
From my observations i see that sometimes both genders make the issue a lot more complicated because they already start from the socially expected role they think they need to fulfill.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on July 28, 2018, 10:01:31 pm
http://norden.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:811504/FULLTEXT06.pdf (http://norden.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:811504/FULLTEXT06.pdf)
"The sickness absence patterns between demo graphic groups are to a high degree similar in the Nordic countries. In general, women have more sickness absence than men."

sorry but while it makes a qualitative claim, this document doesn't even seem to claim any meaningful quantitative measured percentage difference on sex or gender based sick day usage...

I can see a few data points of average sick days (as recorded in some system by some process and analysed in some way that has not been explained in this article)  of men vs women (eg Norwegian, 9.5 vs 8) which is a ~18% difference of sick days, but when you turn it around to what matters it's well under 0.5% difference in available working time... which can be SWAMPED by individual performance.  (hell, there's people I'd be happy to hire at 50% availability over other people I know at 100% availability - they would *still* do way more useful work over the course of a year... come to think of it there's people I know where I'd rather hire nobody to work a role, rather than hire them to work it 100%)

Even then though - if you want to claim that women are more often sick than men, you need to control for the same level worker doing the same job in the same industry, with as much as reasonably possible the same about their lives.  Otherwise you are basically measuring what could easily be outcomes of the system we are discussing as a problem, and claiming those outcomes to be the naturally occurring way of things, in order to justify the system.



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https://www.jcpsp.pk/archive/2008/Aug2008/05.pdf (https://www.jcpsp.pk/archive/2008/Aug2008/05.pdf)
"Study participants (n=172) had mean age of 21.2 + 1.9 years. Eighty-nine (51%) girls met the criteria for PMS recording  to  ICD  –  10,  among  them,  53  (59.5%)  had  mild  PMS,  26  (29.2%)  had  moderate  and  10  (11.2%)  had  severe PMS. Ten (5.8%) girls were found to have Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder (PMDD) according to DSM – IV criteria. The order  of  frequency  of  symptoms  were  anger,  irritability,  anxiety,  tiredness,  difficult  concentration,  mood  swings  and physical symptoms like breast tenderness and general body discomfort with great impairment in social life / activities and work  efficiency/productivity."

so 5.8% of the population in one study have an issue for maybe 3 days a month, that could possibly include a symptom that could effect their performance?
sounds like we need to get better at organising work so this can be planned around for this very small but still significant proportion of the population when necessary...

There's still no info here that shows women will do a less valuable job than a man.


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If she doesn't have post partum depression, for which the aftermath of the hormonal war she waged with her baby won't help (humans have some really screwed up evolutionary quirks in their reproductive mechanics, women get the worst of it).

sorry. no data. what's the actual cost here?

But the thing is, even if you can find a humdinger of a study to support that claim, that shows real measured actual productivity loss... BUT EVEN THEN -  after all these things above, we aren't even talking about problems men have (higher death rates at relatively young ages due to misadventure, untreated depression issues, anger/violence issues in the work place that not just effect them but effect coworkers...) with everything you brought up so far you're not even close to showing any kind of support for your claim that men are naturally better employees than women.

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Possibly, but part of it is due to the reality of the statistics of what women do (https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/04/why-43-of-women-with-children-leave-their-jobs-and-how-to-get-them-back/275134/). There are few managers who haven't been bit by the reality of young women, maternal leave and the frequent decision to become home makers. Their job isn't to create more equality, their job is to value signal an interest in equality only to the extent necessary for profit optimization.

you just quoted an article that showed someone wanting to be able to rejoin the workforce with flexible roles.
again, you are showing the results of a messed up system and touting them as justification for the system.


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Maybe, but I find regulation often far more harmful than anything it tries to fix. Give men equal subsidized leave to women, I don't care. Have companies value signal to their heart's content, I don't care. The moment you want courts and lawmakers to step in to punish companies for not having the correct wages or diversity according to you, then you get my enmity.

you are going to have regulations either way, unless you are some kind of anarchist?
we have a system of laws that regulate individual liberties for a reason.
that reason is so we can all live together without killing too many of each other.
why not use what we learn about people's lives to make their lives better where we can?

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I don't see professional success as all that important in personal actualization. I think the opportunity to become a home maker, western culture and wealth provides many women isn't exactly ripping them off. Sucks for the ones who do want to find it in professional success of course, who will be bit by the statistics and profit optimization, but life can't always be fair.

well that's all well and good that you are happy with the choices women tend to have with their lives under the current system.. but I can't help but think that we should be more concerned with how women see it.

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The liberal pretence that it can be is a dangerous fantasy. They would bring us all to a lowest common denominator with no freedom, to achieve equality. Communism.

Seems from that, when we talk of the word equality, you're thinking equality of outcome.
I'm actually talking about equality of opportunity. A very different beast.

I can't even begin to understand what you mean when you use "freedom" in that sentence.  economic freedom maybe?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on July 29, 2018, 02:25:10 am
Even then though - if you want to claim that women are more often sick than men, you need to control for the same level worker doing the same job in the same industry, with as much as reasonably possible the same about their lives.  Otherwise you are basically measuring what could easily be outcomes of the system we are discussing as a problem, and claiming those outcomes to be the naturally occurring way of things, in order to justify the system.
I was looking for a study for office workers in government from some Nordic country from memory, but I can't find the one I was looking for . If you hunt down references though there's a ton of these studies which try to control for workplace, level of male dominance in workplace etc. and in the end gender still has a large influence.
http://www.sjweh.fi/show_abstract.php?abstract_id=2909 (http://www.sjweh.fi/show_abstract.php?abstract_id=2909)
"Controlling for occupation accounted for half of the female excess in self-certified and medically confirmed episodes lasting >60 days."

I did find the following study which I found funny. Having a woman as a manager seems to increase absenteeism of workers :
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/2158244015574208 (http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/2158244015574208)
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so 5.8% of the population in one study have an issue for maybe 3 days a month, that could possibly include a symptom that could effect their performance?
Actually 55 out of 172 self reported "Reduction of productivity or inefficiency at work, school, home or in daily routine". I think the PPMD and severe PMS groups mentioned were separate, not overlapping, since 27 had severe dysmenorrhea.

Any way, my point was not to put an absolute number to the cost ... just to show how common it really is. Percentages add up, it's not like the wage gap for similar occupations is some huge number either.
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There's still no info here that shows women will do a less valuable job than a man.
That's always a problem, there are few occupations where you can truly have an objective metric of performance.
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sorry. no data. what's the actual cost here?
You had no data either for claiming women could just return to work with little interruption. Why not give me some courtesy and accept that the exception exists and is common (http://tcyh.org/early_deliveries/downloads/Maternal_%20Depression.pdf) without needing a level of precision you never offered yourself?
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with everything you brought up so far you're not even close to showing any kind of support for your claim that men are naturally better employees than women.
We do know how employers judge the cost of maternity though, very highly.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/28/40-percent-of-managers-av_n_5732836.html (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/28/40-percent-of-managers-av_n_5732836.html)
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you just quoted an article that showed someone wanting to be able to rejoin the workforce with flexible roles.
again, you are showing the results of a messed up system and touting them as justification for the system.
She's arguing for flexibility for returning mothers after the early years of child rearing, that changes nothing about the cost of losing the employee for maternity leave AND often having little idea what the outcome of the coin toss will be if she stays or if she goes after the kid is born.
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you are going to have regulations either way, unless you are some kind of anarchist?
The problem with assigning penalties based on statistical evidence is that it's so fucking capricious, it will just cause businesses to waste a lot of time with red tape and gaming of the system. The rules will by necessity also be open to interpretation since smaller companies will have so many outliers, a vague mess. On the upside MtF transsexuals will suddenly become a lot more employable, meets the quota, can't get pregnant.

Let the market judge the cost and value of a female employee. If you don't like the numbers it arrives at and you want to solve it with big government,  just find ways to subsidize employment/remuneration of women until you globally arrive at the level of equality you think it should be. Of course doing so is embarrassing, because it could be interpreted as an agreement with the market opinion about that value ... but I think embarrassment is preferable over red tape and capricious enforcement based on circumstantial/statistical evidence.
Quote
well that's all well and good that you are happy with the choices women tend to have with their lives under the current system.. but I can't help but think that we should be more concerned with how women see it.
I'm only concerned in as far as I'd like them to agree with me :)
Quote
I can't even begin to understand what you mean when you use "freedom" in that sentence.  economic freedom maybe?
Economic, thought, freedom of association. All freedom disappears as equality becomes a matter of principle which can not be questioned.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: ajb on July 29, 2018, 06:35:06 am
But ajb likely thinks that was a big mistake on their part because a males almost 30 years experience in the industry has absolutely zero value, less than useless in fact  ::)
 
I know you're just being deliberately obtuse for effect, but let me spell it out for you: your experience *as a man* is irrelevant when discussing the experiences specific to *women*.  Saying "I as a man have never observed a thing that specifically affects women, so it must not be a big deal" is what's less than useful.  Just because you don't notice a thing happening doesn't mean it's not happening, or that it doesn't affect people to the extent that they say it does.  Listen to women!

A friend of mine is actually a scientist in that field (although not a 100% related).
As far as I understand is that the science behind it is rather complicated since both sexes have been taught to fulfill a certain  role in society for so long.
Being in that (artificial) role doesn't automatically mean a person isn't capable of doing something else.
But since there are such heavy social expectations it's almost impossible to distinguish it from the objective reality.
Compare it a bit with a placebo effect. If someone believes strong enough that he/she isn't able to do certain things that becomes reality.

This is key.  Children have gender roles projected upon them by adults literally from birth.  Pay attention to the types of words people use when talking about boy vs. girl infants. 

I think that perhaps using the word "discrimination" has done a disservice to the conversation, because when people hear it they think only about blantant "girls can't do math so they can't be engineers" type stuff, but in reality there are many other more subtle things happening that are just as harmful because they're constant.  Gender bias is a better way to put it.  Stuff like rachaelp mentioned, where people automatically focus on the men in the room vs the women, for instance.  Men, and even women, tend not to even notice that sort of thing, but when you start to pay attention to those behaviors you see them all the time.  A lot of that stuff may seem like no big deal, but when you experience it your entire life it has a serious and undeniable impact.  Obviously a lot of this stuff is cultural, so I'm speaking from the US perspective because that's what I'm familiar with, but the sort of subtle and implicit bias absolutely permeates out society, and its reflected in individual interactions and mass media and everywhere in between.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on July 29, 2018, 07:02:08 am
Quote
When will this insanity stop?
When most in the western world will be incapable of doing anything useful for fear of offending someone who's loud enough to drown out sanity.

I can't stand that shit. It alienates people who won't talk to you because they are afraid of using things like the wrong pronoun and offending you. It's easier just not to talk to that person or if you are working for a corporation risk your job and having a trip to the HR department. Try keeping up with all the acronyms in the politicly correct side of the LGBT (LGBTQRSUV...) community.


I say we find the person who started all this: Anika sarkasian with her feminist videos, and make an example out of her by forcing her to marry a male shovenist husband and make her work in the kitchen in a skanky French maid costume wearing high heels. Also she will have to dye her hair blonde and no more of this red/purple hair shit. Why do all feminists have neon red/purple hair anyways? She claims to speak for women and trans/gay people and she doesn't but people think she does. Show her a pink crayon and she will find a way to profit off of getting offended by it.


For me personally I would love to spend all day in the kitchen or cleaning the house while my husband is at work and serving his needs.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on July 29, 2018, 07:51:24 am
Children have gender roles projected upon them by adults literally from birth.
They have a culture projected upon them, gender roles are but one part of it.
Quote
in reality there are many other more subtle things happening that are just as harmful because they're constant.
Harmful posits that you can just eliminate them from culture while strictly improving its felicity. We're just evolved monkeys, there's a whole lot of non-linearities in how such changes work out. Western culture seems doomed demographically in a multicultural competition and our abandonment of monogamy is likely to have negatively affected our happiness for instance. We might have thrown out a few too many babies with the bathwater.
Quote
Gender bias is a better way to put it.  Stuff like rachaelp mentioned, where people automatically focus on the men in the room vs the women, for insnce.  Men, and even women, tend not to even notice that sort of thing, but when you start to pay attention to those behaviors you see them all the time.  A lot of that stuff may seem like no big deal, but when you experience it your entire life it has a serious and undeniable impact.  Obviously a lot of this stuff is cultural, so I'm speaking from the US perspective because that's what I'm familiar with, but the sort of subtle and implicit bias absolutely permeates out society, and its reflected in individual interactions and mass media and everywhere in between.
First world problems. We've all got expectations put on us based on appearance, short men didn't chose their lot in life either. They'll just have to rise above it.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: ogden on July 29, 2018, 07:57:49 am
The only advice I can give, is to REALLY read a bit more on the subject than just what electronic science has to offer.
Otherwise, please just don't judge anything before you know what you're really talking about.

Exactly. Why don't we talk about male discrimination in nursing? (https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/human-capital-and-risk/gender-ratio-of-nurses-across-50-states.html)  :-DD

[edit/hint] It's fine that firefighters are males and nurses - females.


Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: b_force on July 29, 2018, 06:29:02 pm
The only advice I can give, is to REALLY read a bit more on the subject than just what electronic science has to offer.
Otherwise, please just don't judge anything before you know what you're really talking about.

Exactly. Why don't we talk about male discrimination in nursing? (https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/human-capital-and-risk/gender-ratio-of-nurses-across-50-states.html)  :-DD

[edit/hint] It's fine that firefighters are males and nurses - females.
I can name more subtle things, like that males are mostly expected to fix the dirty or technical jobs (i am not saying physical jobs, since on average most males are physically a bit stronger).
Ironically I hear that expectation a lot from feminists, so go figure.
I can imagine that people vote for equality, but that means equal responsibility as well.
Also for the little things that aren't so nice to do.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 29, 2018, 06:47:00 pm
As far as I understand is that the science behind it is rather complicated since both sexes have been taught to fulfill a certain  role in society for so long.
Being in that (artificial) role doesn't automatically mean a person isn't capable of doing something else.

No one is saying, or has said women aren't capable of doing engineering.

The two sides of the entire argument about women in engineering and the poor numbers are either due to:

a) Girls *on average* just aren't as interested in "things" as boys are.
or
b) It's all just a "social construct" and girls are just as interested in "things" (and hence leading to engineering) as boys are, if only they weren't conditioned into liking other things instead.
or
c) A combination of the above.

Well, studies have been done and policies enacted to try and "level the playing field" in terms of how kids are bought up, and encouragement to get into these fields etc.
And what the studies show, fairly conclusively I'm lead to believe, is that not only are girls *on average* less interested in "things" than boys are. But when you try and correct for the "social construct" aspects (i.e. you let them choose for themselves as much as possible), the complete opposite happens to what social constructionists believe. Instead of getting more girls in engineering, you get less.
It's a slam dunk that girls simply aren't as naturally interested in engineering that than boys, again, on average. And well, there is nothing wrong with that, just like there's nothing wrong with boys not being interested in nursing or child care or veterinary science or a multiple of other professions that involves caring for people or animals.

So I assume from that finding that it's just as possible that just as many girls might feel pressured into getting into engineering than those who are pressured out of it. And it kinda makes sense that you'd get some of that.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: b_force on July 29, 2018, 07:18:32 pm
You could only run these tests wih babies more or less.
Kids already are very biased about which gender needs to fit what role.
That already starts from a very early age.
Even more so in cultures were the females put more time into raising the kids compared to males.
With an already biased start you will get a biased outcome.

That's also why my friend said that these experiments are so extremely difficult to do.
You basically need to raise up two groups of kids (plus a control group) were one group is being isolated from any form of bias. Unfortunately that's being considered heavily unethical for the most of us.

I am very curious what research you're referring to?
Not saying I don't agree with you but I taking everything into consideration I find it impossible to make any conclusions about it.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on July 29, 2018, 07:43:14 pm
As far as I understand is that the science behind it is rather complicated since both sexes have been taught to fulfill a certain  role in society for so long.
Being in that (artificial) role doesn't automatically mean a person isn't capable of doing something else.

No one is saying, or has said women aren't capable of doing engineering.

The two sides of the entire argument about women in engineering and the poor numbers are either due to:

a) Girls *on average* just aren't as interested in "things" as boys are.
or
b) It's all just a "social construct" and girls are just aren't as interested in "things" (and hence leading to engineering) as boys are, if only they weren't conditioned into liking other things instead.
or
c) A combination of the above.

Well, studies have been done and policies enacted to try and "level the playing field" in terms of how kids are bought up, and encouragement to get into these fields etc.
And what the studies show, fairly conclusively I'm lead to believe, is that not only are girls *on average* less interested in "things" than boys are. But when you try and correct for the "social construct" aspects (i.e. you let them choose for themselves as much as possible), the complete opposite happens to what social constructionists believe. Instead of getting more girls in engineering, you get less.
It's a slam dunk that girls simply aren't as naturally interested in engineering that than boys, again, on average. And well, there is nothing wrong with that, just like there's nothing wrong with boys not being interested in nursing or child care or veterinary science or a multiple of other professions that involves caring for people or animals.

So I assume from that finding that it's just as possible that just as many girls might feel pressured into getting into engineering than those who are pressured out of it. And it kinda makes sense that you'd get some of that.

I think that's true. It all comes down to testosterone and estrogen, or more like estrogen and lack of estrogen. Things that are emotional "touchy feely" and things like math and science seem cold and detached when your brain is full of estrogen. You can still like those things on estrogen but they are not as appealing. Knowing both worlds I can say estrogen completely transforms your brain and your personality. The more technical things seem kind of "dry or cold" to me now, still interesting but lacking some type of emotional reward you get when you do something that helps people or makes them smile or laugh. Also without testosterone you lack that drive to push through things as there is no emotional reward at the end. 
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on July 29, 2018, 08:16:19 pm
The only advice I can give, is to REALLY read a bit more on the subject than just what electronic science has to offer.
Otherwise, please just don't judge anything before you know what you're really talking about.

Exactly. Why don't we talk about male discrimination in nursing? (https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/human-capital-and-risk/gender-ratio-of-nurses-across-50-states.html)  :-DD

[edit/hint] It's fine that firefighters are males and nurses - females.
There isn’t any discrimination against them. Males that apply to nursing programs and jobs pretty much get fought over like fresh meat on Grindr! (Yes, I’ve set this up for a very reality-based joke. Somebody run with it! :P )
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on July 29, 2018, 08:30:29 pm
The only advice I can give, is to REALLY read a bit more on the subject than just what electronic science has to offer.
Otherwise, please just don't judge anything before you know what you're really talking about.

Exactly. Why don't we talk about male discrimination in nursing? (https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/human-capital-and-risk/gender-ratio-of-nurses-across-50-states.html)  :-DD

[edit/hint] It's fine that firefighters are males and nurses - females.
There isn’t any discrimination against them. Males that apply to nursing programs and jobs pretty much get fought over like fresh meat on Grindr! (Yes, I’ve set this up for a very reality-based joke. Somebody run with it! :P )
I'll run with it:
Some male nurses are hot. Also I'm not just a set of tits with great legs I have great brain too!  :-DD
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on July 29, 2018, 09:14:20 pm
I’ve worked on some projects in the UAE, and it is not at all unusual to have more female engineers than male on a project. The last project I worked on had seven engineers on the team, five of whom were female, in power electronics, embedded systems, mechanical engineering, materials science and space control systems.

Now at first I thought this was really an extraordinarily progressive and unexpected scenario considering the parochial narrative about the Middle East that we’ve all been fed with in the Western world.

However, it’s somewhat the opposite of what you’d think. Paradoxically there is a demonstrable inverse correlation between a culture’s gender equality, and the number of women in engineering. For example, Scandinavian countries like Sweden, Noway and Finland have “excellent” Gender Wage Gap credentials, but have far fewer women in STEM (20-23%) compared to, say, Algeria, the UAE and Turkey (36-41%), that have far worse Gender Wage Gap credentials.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/)

Now while I was delighted to see more females in engineering, there are some cultural things that, as a Westerener, I have difficulty in coming to terms with. For example culturally in the UAE, unlike a man, it is verbotten for me to shake the hand of a woman. Of course fundamentally I am going to respect their culture, because a man not shaking the hand of a woman is judged to be the respectful cultural norm, whereas in the West it’s precisely the opposite.

What I believe is that while you can encourage STEM, it’s hardly the best for everyone if you try to force individuals to do something they’d rather not, whether or not their interests are skewed innately, or socially from an early age.

Now while you can skew the outcome to a limited degree to fit an arbitrary quota, at some point you are going to find that there are fewer and fewer qualified females, so inevitably unqualified females will then take those roles whether or not they wanted to. Meanwhile there’s a heap of disgruntled unemployed males who were perfectly well qualified who can no longer even apply. What is the benefit to society and the individual themselves in forcing the individual to do things they’d rather not be doing?

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 29, 2018, 09:41:13 pm
I think that's true. It all comes down to testosterone and estrogen, or more like estrogen and lack of estrogen. Things that are emotional "touchy feely" and things like math and science seem cold and detached when your brain is full of estrogen. You can still like those things on estrogen but they are not as appealing. Knowing both worlds I can say estrogen completely transforms your brain and your personality. The more technical things seem kind of "dry or cold" to me now, still interesting but lacking some type of emotional reward you get when you do something that helps people or makes them smile or laugh. Also without testosterone you lack that drive to push through things as there is no emotional reward at the end.

Very interesting to hear someone who has gone through that, thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 29, 2018, 09:54:44 pm
I am very curious what research you're referring to?
Not saying I don't agree with you but I taking everything into consideration I find it impossible to make any conclusions about it.

I don't have exact paper links to hand, but maybe start here with this random article, this "paradox" has made a lot of press in recent years:
http://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/)
and
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/)
It's not just one recent study, I believe there have been at least several showing similar results.

I have not read this, but seems to be a paper on the subject:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0153857 (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0153857)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: b_force on July 29, 2018, 09:58:29 pm
Quote
When will this insanity stop?
When most in the western world will be incapable of doing anything useful for fear of offending someone who's loud enough to drown out sanity.

I can't stand that shit. It alienates people who won't talk to you because they are afraid of using things like the wrong pronoun and offending you. It's easier just not to talk to that person or if you are working for a corporation risk your job and having a trip to the HR department. Try keeping up with all the acronyms in the politicly correct side of the LGBT (LGBTQRSUV...) community.

Can we please change "western world" to "certain English speaking countries"?
Especially the Germanic and Scandinavian countries you will find quite the opposite.
Although basically in whole Europe freedom of speech and expression is very highly valued.
Sometimes to an extend that I even think that a tiny little more respect would be not to much to ask.

Speaking of respect, deep respect for you Beamin. I mean that on the best possible way. :clap:
Must have been a total rollercoaster on so many aspects.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on July 30, 2018, 02:30:46 am
Well, studies have been done and policies enacted to try and "level the playing field" in terms of how kids are bought up, and encouragement to get into these fields etc.
And what the studies show, fairly conclusively I'm lead to believe, is that not only are girls *on average* less interested in "things" than boys are. But when you try and correct for the "social construct" aspects (i.e. you let them choose for themselves as much as possible), the complete opposite happens to what social constructionists believe. Instead of getting more girls in engineering, you get less.
It's a slam dunk that girls simply aren't as naturally interested in engineering that than boys, again, on average. And well, there is nothing wrong with that, just like there's nothing wrong with boys not being interested in nursing or child care or veterinary science or a multiple of other professions that involves caring for people or animals.



This is anecdotal of course, but my observation is that absolutely nobody had a problem with this (well aside from a lot of us nerdy guys who wished more women had even a passing interest in things we were interested in) until the tech industry became big money. Once engineering became associated with money, suddenly people come out of the woodwork and complain that women are under-represented.

It's the only thing that makes sense too, I mean why would we (guys) want to keep women out? What possible benefit is that? Once past the age where girls have cooties I can't think of many men who don't like being around women.

There is another amusing paradox here as well. On one hand the argument is that having a diverse workforce is advantageous from a business standpoint, yet another argument from the same people is that people of all genders/races are exactly equivalent and the differences come down to societal pressures, etc. If there were no fundamental differences then diversity would be irrelevant from a business standpoint. It's the different thought processes that make diversity a useful trait in the first place.

It seems some people have difficulty separating average from individual, ie because people of a particular gender on average are less interested in something doesn't mean certain individuals can't buck that trend. Also the stating that on average women or men are more or less interested in xyz is not the same as stating that women or men are incapable of being as good at xyz.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on July 30, 2018, 02:35:52 am
Quote
When will this insanity stop?
When most in the western world will be incapable of doing anything useful for fear of offending someone who's loud enough to drown out sanity.

I can't stand that shit. It alienates people who won't talk to you because they are afraid of using things like the wrong pronoun and offending you. It's easier just not to talk to that person or if you are working for a corporation risk your job and having a trip to the HR department. Try keeping up with all the acronyms in the politicly correct side of the LGBT (LGBTQRSUV...) community.

Can we please change "western world" to "certain English speaking countries"?
Especially the Germanic and Scandinavian countries you will find quite the opposite.
Although basically in whole Europe freedom of speech and expression is very highly valued.
Sometimes to an extend that I even think that a tiny little more respect would be not to much to ask.
I don't think you can generalize about Europe, or even just Germanic and Scandinavian countries.

First of all, gender-inclusive language has been a Big Deal in German for a while, thanks to gendered nouns, which is why you'll see wordings like "Elektroniker/in" or "ElektronikerIn", gender-inclusive rewordings like "Krankenschwester" to "Krankenpfleger/in", or introductory sentences like "For the sake of brevity, we use the male form throughout this text, by which we expressly mean both males and females, except where specified." (Originally, that was the default, but gender-inclusive language kinda demands it be stated.)

As for directness: it varies WILDLY. Germany tends to be far more blunt than Switzerland. But then Austria is extremely formal.

As for freedom of speech: As an American living in Switzerland, who has hands-on experience living in both countries as both child and adult, I can tell you that Europeans don't value absolute freedom of speech as much as Americans do. Europe is far more willing to allow government to place limitations on expression (e.g. Germany's bans on nazi insignia or holocaust denial). Even if the reasons are quite understandable, I don't really like it. That said, the US is (or, well, used to be until 2016…) more willing to bow to political correctness in practice. And companies watch out since they can be sued for discrimination. (In other words: Americans believe in "absolute freedom of speech, but not freedom from repercussions".)

But there are plenty of people here just looking for ways to be offended, just as in USA. Social justice warriors are equally insufferable no matter where they are from…
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: ogden on July 30, 2018, 02:36:07 am
The only advice I can give, is to REALLY read a bit more on the subject than just what electronic science has to offer.
Otherwise, please just don't judge anything before you know what you're really talking about.

Exactly. Why don't we talk about male discrimination in nursing? (https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/human-capital-and-risk/gender-ratio-of-nurses-across-50-states.html)  :-DD

[edit/hint] It's fine that firefighters are males and nurses - females.
There isn’t any discrimination against them.

:palm: Indeed. That was sarcasm. (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sarcasm) Men and Women are different, they make different choices as well. So what?

For those interested in subject, I suggest to check Jordan B Peterson lectures or at least following interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: NiHaoMike on July 30, 2018, 02:44:58 am
It's the only thing that makes sense too, I mean why would we (guys) want to keep women out? What possible benefit is that? Once past the age where girls have cooties I can't think of many men who don't like being around women.
Maybe guys who have been in at least one bad relationship? The opposite (women who have no desire to be in relationships with men) is surprisingly common and Micah Elizabeth Scott is one example of that. (Maybe she's saying that to stop random guys asking to marry her.)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on July 30, 2018, 04:09:47 am
You basically need to raise up two groups of kids (plus a control group) were one group is being isolated from any form of bias. Unfortunately that's being considered heavily unethical for the most of us.

Greater society can function as the control group. I don't see what's unethical about raising your kids in a commune without mass media access. It just takes a lot of self-sacrifice and funding. Funding because without outside funding communes will almost always be agricultural and agriculture even with machines benefits a lot from physical strength.

Kibbutzim were halfway there, dragged down by the realities of agricultural work. Though I think that if they had ever succeeded as high tech egalitarian communes where male biological strength is less relevant, they would have seen another problem. The same problem which threatens the continued existence of our own culture, lack of fertility. In an age of birth control I don't think their communal child rearing would have been able to sustain the drive to have children. All that pain and inconvenience for something which you only have a tenuous bond with?

Personally I see far more pressing need to make classical liberalist western culture stable, fertility wise and isolation wise. Women might face gender role reinforcement ... but trying to fix that in western culture, while it is dying out from lack of fertility and displacement seems a bit futile to me.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on July 30, 2018, 04:52:59 am
You basically need to raise up two groups of kids (plus a control group) were one group is being isolated from any form of bias. Unfortunately that's being considered heavily unethical for the most of us.
How would you determine that there is no bias? You would need to raise a child devoid of all normal emotional interactions with others. That's going to have a few undesirable side effects.

The kinds of people who see bias everywhere will just claim you didn't remove all the bias when any research result doesn't match their ideology.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on July 30, 2018, 05:24:31 am
How would you determine that there is no bias? You would need to raise a child devoid of all normal emotional interactions with others. That's going to have a few undesirable side effects.

The kinds of people who see bias everywhere will just claim you didn't remove all the bias when any research result doesn't match their ideology.

I think the influence of cultural and social bias is overstated. Children have a free mind, they will ask for the toys they want, and they will play in the way they want to play. You can try to push them in other directions, but they won't comply happily or willingly.

I know when I grew up I was interested in "things". That was nothing to do with my parents, that was just the way my mind worked. On the other hand, my young nephew has been bought all sorts of technical, construction and electrical toys, and he is just not interested in them. He will play with them once, then put them to one side and ignore them.

What society has to do is to avoid negative pressures. If girls want to study science and technology and become engineers or physicists, there should not be artificial barriers put in their way. But trying to force girls down roads that do not interest them will not make them happy, and it will not make the people they eventually work with happy. It will just lead to misery for all concerned.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on July 30, 2018, 06:16:44 am
Maybe guys who have been in at least one bad relationship? The opposite (women who have no desire to be in relationships with men) is surprisingly common and Micah Elizabeth Scott is one example of that. (Maybe she's saying that to stop random guys asking to marry her.)


I'm sure there's some of that, I once had a coworker who was a gay man who openly told me on numerous occasions that he hated women and didn't like interacting with them, but he was an exception. I've encountered man-hating "feminazi" types a few times but fortunately not at work. Throughout my professional career female engineers have been rare, but those that I have worked with have been very good at their jobs. I think the concept that large numbers of male engineers are discriminating against hiring women is an absurd notion with no basis in reality.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on July 30, 2018, 06:53:19 am
@scanlime tweeted this, thought it was funny.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on July 30, 2018, 06:56:17 am
Is that her audience?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: b_force on July 30, 2018, 06:43:06 pm
How would you determine that there is no bias? You would need to raise a child devoid of all normal emotional interactions with others. That's going to have a few undesirable side effects.

The kinds of people who see bias everywhere will just claim you didn't remove all the bias when any research result doesn't match their ideology.

I think the influence of cultural and social bias is overstated. Children have a free mind, they will ask for the toys they want, and they will play in the way they want to play. You can try to push them in other directions, but they won't comply happily or willingly.

I know when I grew up I was interested in "things". That was nothing to do with my parents, that was just the way my mind worked. On the other hand, my young nephew has been bought all sorts of technical, construction and electrical toys, and he is just not interested in them. He will play with them once, then put them to one side and ignore them.

What society has to do is to avoid negative pressures. If girls want to study science and technology and become engineers or physicists, there should not be artificial barriers put in their way. But trying to force girls down roads that do not interest them will not make them happy, and it will not make the people they eventually work with happy. It will just lead to misery for all concerned.
Now I need to dig in to some scientific papers but from early on kids are overwhelmed by what they socially need to like and dislike.
Yes, in the end they have "free choice" but sometimes there is so much expected or social pressure that you can argue about how "free" that is.
A bit like a Jehovah's witness deciding to leave his beliefs, who is totally banned by the community and even family.

Just open a toy booklet and you will see that girls are supposed to wearing pink, play with dolls, dress like princesses and play with mini kitchens. The boys all have tech stuff, tools, weapons (horrible on its own) and other typical "man stuff".
One could heavily argue if that is not already putting and teaching some prejudices to kids.

Once again, yes an individual would maybe decide to do something else.
(Sometimes with a lot of consequences)
But science isn't about individual cases but about what the majority does.

I agree with the social pressure, but the question was if some of these expectations aren't hard coded in something like our testosterone levels which basically means our DNA?
This is why I also said why this is such a difficult thing to investigate, since most kids are heavily biased from very early on.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Jeroen3 on July 30, 2018, 07:22:39 pm
You'd have to keep most of the internet and tv away if you do not want that bias to have an effect on people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaskan_Bush_People).
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 30, 2018, 11:17:19 pm
Is that her audience?

It would not surprise me if that's her audience breakdown. I would have guessed maybe 2% female. Although you can skew this number a bit by changing the date range, as when you get down to a percent or two the noise can show non-average results.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 30, 2018, 11:26:43 pm
Now I need to dig in to some scientific papers but from early on kids are overwhelmed by what they socially need to like and dislike.
Yes, in the end they have "free choice" but sometimes there is so much expected or social pressure that you can argue about how "free" that is.

When female enrollment in STEM courses is somewhere between 20% and 40%, and the lower figure is in countries that have the highest gender equallty, that argument pretty much falls apart.

(https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2018/02/Screen_Shot_2018_02_16_at_12.33.16_PM/d099fa13a.png)

Quote
A bit like a Jehovah's witness deciding to leave his beliefs, who is totally banned by the community and even family.

Nothing at all like that, as the above data would indicate.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: b_force on July 31, 2018, 12:07:16 am
Now I need to dig in to some scientific papers but from early on kids are overwhelmed by what they socially need to like and dislike.
Yes, in the end they have "free choice" but sometimes there is so much expected or social pressure that you can argue about how "free" that is.

When female enrollment in STEM courses is somewhere between 20% and 40%, and the lower figure is in countries that have the highest gender equallty, that argument pretty much falls apart.

Quote
A bit like a Jehovah's witness deciding to leave his beliefs, who is totally banned by the community and even family.

Nothing at all like that, as the above data would indicate.
We aren't talking about the same thing.  :-//

Besides, gender inequality is not the same as social expectations.
Or in other words, women could have similar jobs, wages, right to vote etc but still not choosing for tech jobs because it's not "normal".
More people discuss exactly that point in the article;
https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/03/14/investigating-the-stem-gender-equality-paradox-in-fairer-societies-fewer-women-enter-science/

Or in other words. Yes women still have the same rights as men in these western countries, but once they get babies it's being expected that they take care of them.
Although that is changing, in the vast majority of the household the man is still the breadwinner.
This is just one example of biasing, but there are many more.
See it a bit like group or culture pressure. Because many people do a certain thing, the rest will follow since that's the norm.
The opposite is also true of course; so since people don't do things, others won't follow as well because it's not "normal"/weird.

Quote
So many factors (historical, cultural, demographic etc.) are left unexamined in this comparison that the OGEI is useless in examining reasons for STEM gender equality.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: John B on July 31, 2018, 07:43:55 am
"Paradox" is how people describe a state of affairs when their presuppositions were wrong and they refuse to let them go.  :-DD
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: NiHaoMike on July 31, 2018, 09:21:12 am
Does their definition of STEM include medical? (I would assume so, given that medical is a subcategory of biology which is a subcategory of science.) Side note: One of my friends used to run a Bitcoin miner at home and she was considered unusual in the Bitcoin community not only because she's female but also because she was a medical student.

Is there a site that lists Youtube viewer genders by channel/video as well as by topic? I would assume that overall, it should be close to a 50/50 split, but there could be sources of skew like it generally being guys who set up media players so that everything the family views using that device shows up under his account.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 31, 2018, 09:50:41 am
Is there a site that lists Youtube viewer genders by channel/video as well as by topic?

I don't think so. I believe that information is only available to each channel owner
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 31, 2018, 09:57:36 am
Or in other words. Yes women still have the same rights as men in these western countries, but once they get babies it's being expected that they take care of them.

That's because biologically they are the best person to take care of the child, primarily in the breast feeding stage.
In case you don't know, babies are biologically programmed to breast feed and know and be calmed by the scent of their mother etc.

Quote
See it a bit like group or culture pressure. Because many people do a certain thing, the rest will follow since that's the norm.
The opposite is also true of course; so since people don't do things, others won't follow as well because it's not "normal"/weird.

Boys have the same problem, welcome to the real world.

Quote
So many factors (historical, cultural, demographic etc.) are left unexamined in this comparison that the OGEI is useless in examining reasons for STEM gender equality.

Sure, but it's hugely interesting isn't that the most gender neutral countries have the lowest STEM field rate. But because that goes against the gender equality narrative people conveniently ignore it.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: b_force on July 31, 2018, 10:48:21 am
The point is that there is a lot of context missing.
Yes we see this so called "paradox".
But that only tells us one thing: nothing.
It's a sub-result still with many variables hidden in it.
One just can't simply draw absolute conclusions from it.

For example; what is the age of the STEM women, are they married or maybe just divorced?
Is it maybe some kind of revenge because they are mistreated, so that way they still have at least a little bit of power?
Is it a status symbol, does it pay well, what are the costs of studying?
Etc etc etc

It's not about all these individual details but just to show that there is a significant amount of variables missing.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on July 31, 2018, 11:04:03 am
I just don't see any big mystery here. I'm all for encouraging more women to pursue engineering. I think women who genuinely like engineering, tech, cars etc are totally cool, but they are very, very scarce. My partner is very supportive of my hobbies and that's something I feel was quite a find, even so she has almost no direct interest in that sort of thing. She has her own hobbies, things like sewing and quilting, and while I'm fully capable of operating a sewing machine, it's not something I enjoy the way she enjoys it. Women *on average* are just not very interested in electronics and computers and engines and that sort of thing and men, again on average are not very interested in sewing, nursing, fashion, cosmetics, jewelry, etc. I don't think encouragement has much to do with it. I received WAY more encouragement to be interested in football and other sports than to be interested in engineering but to this day I still have zero interest in sports and a very strong interest in engineering. Somebody could pass a law making it illegal for me to study engineering and I would find ways to circumvent that law because my interests are a big part of who I am and not something that can just be changed. People develop their own interests and there is little anyone else can do to influence those interests. It's absolutely obvious that on average there are large differences in what men and women are interested in. There is no more need of a study to determine that than a study to determine that dropping a rock on your foot hurts.

Now I'll reiterate a previous point since I feel it's an important one. I am in no way suggesting that women are any less capable or any less valuable, or that there is any issue whatsoever with any individual having an interest in something that doesn't fit their traditional gender role, but to claim that the differences are due to societal pressure and we all start out with a completely clean slate is absurd. There *are* fundamental differences, and that's part of why diversity is beneficial in the first place.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on July 31, 2018, 11:26:53 am
I received WAY more encouragement to be interested in football and other sports than to be interested in engineering but to this day I still have zero interest in sports and a very strong interest in engineering.

That's an interesting point that I hadn't thought of. I grew up completely immersed in an environment where I was expected to be playing football (soccer), cricket, and all the team sports that boys were supposed to do. And yet, somehow, none of it stuck. No interest at all in that stuff in spite of massive cultural expectations surrounding me.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rstofer on July 31, 2018, 12:16:21 pm
I have always thought that women avoided engineering because of engineers.  Engineers tend to get pretty firm in their beliefs and are fairly outspoken when describing them.  Engineering meetings are more about competition than collaboration.  In my view...

Women can do well in medicine because there have been so many women blazing the way.  There is now a critical mass that simply hasn't happened in engineering.  If you're going to spend that much time in college, medicine pays better.  A General Practitioner makes about $200k in California.  Drill down by location:

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291062.htm (https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291062.htm)


It has nothing to do with ability.



Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on July 31, 2018, 12:29:51 pm
I have always thought that women avoided engineering because of engineers.  Engineers tend to get pretty firm in their beliefs and are fairly outspoken when describing them.  Engineering meetings are more about competition than collaboration.  In my view...

Women can do well in medicine because there have been so many women blazing the way.  There is now a critical mass that simply hasn't happened in engineering.  If you're going to spend that much time in college, medicine pays better.  A General Practitioner makes about $200k in California.  Drill down by location:

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291062.htm (https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291062.htm)


It has nothing to do with ability.

I don't think anyone claimed it had anything to do ability, but rather lack of interest

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on July 31, 2018, 01:02:14 pm
There seem to be a lot of people out there who either cannot, or willfully refuse to differentiate between interest and ability.

Regarding women's opinion of engineers, I know quite a few engineers who manage to maintain healthy relationships with women, even though with with at least 90% of them their wife/girlfriend has no interest in engineering itself.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: mtdoc on July 31, 2018, 01:28:42 pm
If you're going to spend that much time in college, medicine pays better.

2 problems:

1. It is much more difficult to get into medical school than an engineering program (at least in the US).
2. Medical education requires much more post secondary education time - at least 11 years (4 undergraduate, 4 med school, 3 residency).


BTW, 40 years ago there were very few women in medicine and 60 years ago practically none.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: aargee on July 31, 2018, 05:14:15 pm
Equity from the '80s as Not the Nine O'Clock News comedy put a spin on it...  :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsdCGV0cY0s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsdCGV0cY0s)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 31, 2018, 06:08:13 pm
The point is that there is a lot of context missing.

Same amount for males too.

Quote
Yes we see this so called "paradox".
But that only tells us one thing: nothing.

Err, the entire narrative of the "gender equality in STEM" movement is predicated on the assumption that when women are more "free" to chose, or more encouraged to chose it, they will chose it. The reverse seems to happen. That tells you something at the very least, which is a long way from nothing.

Quote
It's a sub-result still with many variables hidden in it.
One just can't simply draw absolute conclusions from it.

No one is drawing and absolute conclusion, but it's damn well perplexing isn't it?
Well, maybe only for those in the gender equality movement perhaps who perhaps can't question their strongly held belief.

Quote
For example; what is the age of the STEM women, are they married or maybe just divorced?

What age are the STEM men? Are they married or divorced?

Quote
Is it maybe some kind of revenge because they are mistreated, so that way they still have at least a little bit of power?

Do some men do engineering because it's some sort of revenge on their parents because they were pushed into a being a doctor instead?

Quote
It's not about all these individual details but just to show that there is a significant amount of variables missing.

Indeed there are, but just as many if you analysed the male aspect.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Jeroen3 on July 31, 2018, 06:28:14 pm
Stackoverflow has a yearly survey. Although not directly an EE field, it is still technology.
https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#demographics
Note that this only reaches English speaking people.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 31, 2018, 06:52:24 pm
Just open a toy booklet and you will see that girls are supposed to wearing pink, play with dolls, dress like princesses and play with mini kitchens. The boys all have tech stuff, tools, weapons (horrible on its own) and other typical "man stuff".
One could heavily argue if that is not already putting and teaching some prejudices to kids.

Oh dear. You appear to have confused cause and effect.
Toy companies want to make a profit and must have found that this approach maximises that.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: jadew on July 31, 2018, 07:51:07 pm
I think there may be something to this, but the women who complain about it are looking at the wrong people.

The problem is not the men, the problem is that they're not as qualified as the men, and that may (in some cases - edit: those were they would otherwise be great engineers) be a direct result of their upbringing, so the real problem is the parents. Maybe they should look back to their parents and have a talk with them. There's more tho.

We'd all like to think that if our kid showed interest in something, we'd be encouraging and supportive, but that's not true. There are activities which we discourage, specifically because of gender and we aren't doing that because we're idiots or evil or hate the other gender, we do it because it's what's best for our kid. Just like someone else was saying in a previous post, we have to play the numbers game, and our kid's best chance of success is if he plays his own gender.

So in the event they do talk to their parents, they'll probably hear what they should have known all along: they had their best interest at heart.

That being said, if I had a girl and she showed interest in electronics, I'd encourage her, because I agree with everyone else here, girls are positively discriminated "against" in this field. Nobody likes a sausage fest.


Bottom line: There may be a few women who could have been happier engineers than whatever they are now, but that's really nobody's fault. That's just the way it is, some people don't fit.


Edit: Should go without saying, but just to be on the safe side, when I say "they're not as qualified as the men", I don't mean all women, just the ones that would want to work in the field but didn't make the cut.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on July 31, 2018, 09:31:28 pm
Is gender disparity in STEM really "a problem", and if it is, why?

I changed my mind on this in recent years.

While I still continue to encourage everyone into STEM, I used to be of the opinion that lack of gender diversity in STEM was somehow "a problem" that needed solving. Indeed, the Stack Overflow survey sees it as "a problem" but doesn't explain why. (https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#demographics)

I now don't see it particularly as a problem, other than from my own selfish perspective that I would love to see more women in STEM fields, but if women tend to choose to do something else, that's fine by me.

My view now is that it is much more of a problem if you try to manipulate individuals, whatever their gender, to do something that they don't want: that's the very definition of oppression.

Whether women tend to avoid STEM careers for innate or non-oppressive social conditioning reasons, frankly I don't think matters, just as long as we all have the same opportunities. Anecdotally, in my experience all other things being equal, women actually have a better chance of landing a STEM job precisely because of their gender.

As I stated at the head of this post, I changed my mind on this relatively recently, but I am equally open minded to be persuaded it is "a problem" with the right evidence.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: vk6zgo on July 31, 2018, 09:37:23 pm
I agree with the sentiment but is there a need to discuss this again?

These threads often result in an argument. I'm disappointed to see another one.  :palm:
Agreed. No need to wade into the knee-deep bullshit again.

That said, the past few years have seen a surprising amount of publicity from  female "engineers" trying to create physically impossible products. |O

In fairness, there are plenty of male ones, too.
Idiocy has no favourite gender, nor does dishonesty.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on July 31, 2018, 10:20:35 pm
While I still continue to encourage everyone into STEM, I used to be of the opinion that lack of gender diversity in STEM was somehow "a problem" that needed solving.
I now don't see it particularly as a problem, other than from my own selfish perspective that I would love to see more women in STEM fields, but if women tend to choose to do something else, that's fine by me.

I've changed my opinion on this too.
I used to support all these "woman only" courses et.al, but now I think it's the wrong approach. We don't need more discrimination, we just need more people doing cool stuff, and perhaps highlighting more females if they do something cool as encouragement for younger girls, but that's about it. The rest is equality of opportunity and the usual speaking up and stamping out real discrimination when it happens.

Quote
Whether women tend to avoid STEM careers for innate or non-oppressive social conditioning reasons, frankly I don't think matters, just as long as we all have the same opportunities. Anecdotally, in my experience all other things being equal, women actually have a better chance of landing a STEM job precisely because of their gender.

Exactly.

Quote
As I stated at the head of this post, I changed my mind on this relatively recently, but I am equally open minded to be persuaded it is "a problem" with the right evidence.

Me too. But I haven't seen any, just lots of assumptions and hot air that isn't backed up by data. In fact the data shows opposite if anything.
So IME we are in the negative evidence territory.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: BillB on August 01, 2018, 01:32:54 am
...Idiocy has no favourite gender...

Actually, it does.  Men are more likely to be idiots.  Men are more likely to be geniuses, too.     

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on August 01, 2018, 02:21:05 am
...Idiocy has no favourite gender...

Actually, it does.  Men are more likely to be idiots.  Men are more likely to be geniuses, too.     
That's always interested me some what. Go to any special school and you'll see there are significantly more boys, than girls and the same is true for the brighter pupils who have been moved on a year or two: more boys than girls.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 01, 2018, 02:32:09 am
...Idiocy has no favourite gender...

Actually, it does.  Men are more likely to be idiots.  Men are more likely to be geniuses, too.     
That's always interested me some what. Go to any special school and you'll see there are significantly more boys, than girls and the same is true for the brighter pupils who have been moved on a year or two: more boys than girls.

https://i.imgur.com/UuSYPe9.jpg
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 01, 2018, 02:43:18 am
...Idiocy has no favourite gender...

Actually, it does.  Men are more likely to be idiots.  Men are more likely to be geniuses, too.     
That's always interested me some what. Go to any special school and you'll see there are significantly more boys, than girls and the same is true for the brighter pupils who have been moved on a year or two: more boys than girls.

https://i.imgur.com/UuSYPe9.jpg
That image greatly exaggerates the real effect. Unless you are looking at the top or bottom 0.1% of the population you shouldn't see a big skew between men and women. A special school, which generally deals with several percent of the less able population, should show only a mild bias towards men.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: BillB on August 01, 2018, 03:09:39 am
That image greatly exaggerates the real effect. Unless you are looking at the top or bottom 0.1% of the population you shouldn't see a big skew between men and women.

That's just it, however.  It's the extreme tails that drive the advancement (or lack thereof) of society.  The large majority of truly great thinkers throughout the ages, those eccentric geniuses, anti-social mad scientists, singularly-driven masterminds have had the combination of traits (emotionally and cognitively) more likely to occur in the men's right-tail distributions.

Strangely, there aren't many complaints about the over-representation of men at the left-tail; the preponderance of men in prison for violence and in institutions for cognitive deficiencies don't make great candidates for postage stamps or statues.

     
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on August 01, 2018, 06:49:16 am
That graph is crap. It doesn't show a proper scale.

There are lots of geniuses in prison, as well as those with learning difficulties. Running a gang takes brains.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 01, 2018, 07:27:17 am
That graph is crap. It doesn't show a proper scale.

There are lots of geniuses in prison, as well as those with learning difficulties. Running a gang takes brains.

better? https://cdn.psychologytoday.com/sites/default/files/styles/image-article_inline_full/public/blogs/54311/2011/01/54391-45191.gif
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on August 01, 2018, 06:05:06 pm
That graph is crap. It doesn't show a proper scale.

There are lots of geniuses in prison, as well as those with learning difficulties. Running a gang takes brains.

Are you really a genius when you find yourself imprisoned? Leading a gang may require you to be a little smarter than most other members but it also requires other 'qualities' like the willingness to use violence and a lack of empathy.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on August 01, 2018, 06:20:24 pm
There are good evolutionary explanations for why women show a narrower distribution in most traits, nature simply play a far more conservative gambler in the genetics of the most important sex.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: razberik on August 02, 2018, 07:10:58 am
When I was at elementary school (9years) I had only two male teachers. I was angry about that when I was a boy.

Should't we encourage men to apply for teaching field ? The vast majority of my elementary female teachers had low empathy into boys topics.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: NiHaoMike on August 02, 2018, 09:11:37 am
When I was at elementary school (9years) I had only two male teachers. I was angry about that when I was a boy.

Should't we encourage men to apply for teaching field ? The vast majority of my elementary female teachers had low empathy into boys topics.
Interesting point - K-12 teachers do seem to be mostly women. Maybe because historically, they were generally the ones to care for kids?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 02, 2018, 09:44:56 am
I actually had almost as many male teachers as female in primary school, no real correlation between quality of teaching and gender, I had some good ones and less good of both.

My observation is that nobody cares about gender ratios in a particular field until it's something with unusually high wages.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: KL27x on August 02, 2018, 10:12:27 am
Quote
Err, the entire narrative of the "gender equality in STEM" movement is predicated on the assumption that when women are more "free" to chose, or more encouraged to chose it, they will chose it. The reverse seems to happen. That tells you something at the very least, which is a long way from nothing.

Engineering is pretty shitty work, in the end. The overall big picture is interesting. But the details are nothing but tedious and soul crushing. And nothing gets finished without a lot of details. The reason anyone does it is for ego and a paycheck. Well, it might not start out that way, but that's where it ends up fairly quickly. :)

I don't mind if women take over this work. The area where woman (and men) should actually care about gender distribution is in business and politics. No one (with real power and privilege) really cares by whom or how the details are sorted out. It's thankless, mindnumbing work. If you want more women to be interested in thankless, mind-numbing work, you have to increase the paycheck. And then you get more men lining up to apply. It don't work. You can change the cart and hope that changes the horse, but it will probably take many generations to see a lasting effect on that horse.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 02, 2018, 01:29:14 pm
Engineering is pretty shitty work, in the end. The overall big picture is interesting. But the details are nothing but tedious and soul crushing. And nothing gets finished without a lot of details. The reason anyone does it is for ego and a paycheck.


I'd have to disagree with part of that. Yes it can be tedious and soul crushing at times, but what work isn't? I still find the sense of accomplishment worthwhile, and it says something that most of my hobbies involve engineering of one sort or another. The thing I like about hobbies is I can set a project aside when I get burned out and work on something else instead.

The number of women I've encountered throughout my life who are into engineering at the same level as guys like me I can count on one hand. I wish there were more but there just aren't very many.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Jeroen3 on August 02, 2018, 04:27:16 pm
I actually had almost as many male teachers as female in primary school, no real correlation between quality of teaching and gender, I had some good ones and less good of both.
Yes, that is an problem. Actually quite the opposite from engineering, especially if you look at the generation currently studying for this career, 15% males.
(https://i.imgur.com/HBj4Nne.png)
Yet the split isn't this big for special education. (learning difficulties/autism)

Perhaps, this is a cause of the difficulties for getting girls motivated for engineering? Maybe if more men choose typical women fields, more women will choose typical men fields?

Due to this, there is a campaign, "is your boy enough boy" (http://laatjijjouwjongengenoegjongenzijn.nl/) since typical boy behavior was noted to be suppressed. There are multiple reasons listed, lack of male role models t school and home. (divorces) Too quickly labeling an energetic kid with ADHD for no valid reason. But that is beyond the scope of this discussion.

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tpowell1830 on August 02, 2018, 04:37:33 pm
Me being vintage (as one thread defined my age) makes me reflect back to when I was young. The female role back then was over patronized and treated as if females could not ever do male work, so the bias was real and obvious. I for one did not like it when I saw a male berating a female simply because she was female and could not possibly do a man's job. I remember seeing this often and, living with 3 sisters and having worked manual jobs, I fell into the same thought train: women (of that era) could not have done some of the long hard back breaking jobs that I did. They simply did not have the strength as men, it was biologically true. However, as I grew older and started using my mind more to do my job, it became very clear to me that women were capable and I eventually lost this stigma in my mind. However, the fact remains that women have their strengths and men have theirs. I no longer have gender bias in my mind and have started looking at life in a more egalitarian way.

With that said, later in my career, I saw few women in my field. I kept asking myself if this was because of male gender bias or simply nature at its' finest. I no longer saw or heard men patronizing or belittling women. Women, in general had changed drastically from the females I knew in my youth. Females at that time seemed confident and competent, in general. SO I kept wondering why weren't there more females in my field. It as true that there were more than when I was young, but still only a few. The few seemed to really be able to hold their own in the engineering field and had a toughness about them that females of my youth did not seem to have. Overall, nowadays, I find women to be very outgoing and generally speaking, confident and competent. The female engineers that I knew were good at their jobs and added a slightly different view of how jobs could be done and I applauded that because we need diversity of ideas in our field. This is so helpful to innovation.

I, like others who have commented, relished the idea when I would here that a female engineer joined the team. In my younger days, with all of my nerdiness, women did not like to talk technical at all. When I married my wife, and yes she had that same female attitude of females in my youth, and we fell in love and married and immediately made a family with children, I played my part and she played hers. She later started working when the kids were a bit older and her demeanor also changed into a more confident personna. I liked this, so I encouraged her to work if that is what she wanted. After our children were grown, after 30 years of marriage, however, we both realized how little we had in common outside of the family and eventually divorced. The point that I am trying to make here is if she had any interest in technical stuff and we could share this interest, we would still be married. I guess the same could be said of me, if I had interests in the humanities as much as her, we may still have stayed married. She is a kind and giving and caring person who is very outgoing, where I am more introverted and want to stay in my inclusive group (engineers, lol). We are still very close, even though she is re-married, we often get together for family events, such as holidays and birthdays.

I find it very exciting and stimulating to talk to someone of the opposite sex who is an engineer and likes to talk technical stuff. This is why I am on this forum. This is probably why there are not that many females on this forum. This is all my personal experience, yours may vary, or you may even make up a world where this isn't so, but anecdotal evidence, no matter how not scientific it is, is somewhat valid in this type of reflection. If someone thinks differently, then that is tantamount to saying that all of us are irrelevant and what we say is completely biased. To that I call BS.  :bullshit:

This is only my opinion, but my opinion matters to me... just sayin'
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: thermistor-guy on August 02, 2018, 05:18:53 pm
Just open a toy booklet and you will see that girls are supposed to wearing pink, play with dolls, dress like princesses and play with mini kitchens. The boys all have tech stuff, tools, weapons (horrible on its own) and other typical "man stuff".
One could heavily argue if that is not already putting and teaching some prejudices to kids.

Oh dear. You appear to have confused cause and effect.
Toy companies want to make a profit and must have found that this approach maximises that.

No, there's more to it. I once attended a course that covered the statistical differences between Men and Women. The instructor did the same thing he did every year: he told his office staff to print the statistical handout on Men using pink paper, and the statistical handout on Women using blue paper.

The office staff used blue for Men and pink for Women, contrary to his instructions. Apparently, the staff had done this every year he'd been running the course, without fail. No profit motive, here.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on August 02, 2018, 05:25:00 pm
The office staff used blue for Men and pink for Women, contrary to his instructions. Apparently, the staff had done this every year he'd been running the course, without fail. No profit motive, here.

About a century or more ago the cultural norm was to dress boys in pink (a "strong" colour) and girls in blue (a "weak") colour. Somehow, over time the convention flipped and we have what we have today. But it wasn't always that way.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Rerouter on August 02, 2018, 07:59:58 pm
These topics always feel a little shallow in the media, many times they point out there is a problem, but don't convey why, or what corrective behaviors could begin to resolve this,

E.g. with equality in the workplace, I get yelled at by various customers on site across the year for some grievance that they did not specify at the beginning of a project, I'm still here because the pay is good, and I don't see them as discriminating against me, just them not being emotionally controlled enough to direct there emotions at the root cause of there problems. However as a young engineer, It terrified the crap out of me, and genuinely made me think of leaving multiple times,

I cannot say how a female would approach this kind of situation, however I assume there priorities may be different than "grin and bear it for the money"

To better give context to my opening comment, I regularly see surveys and studies finding that women are afraid to walk home at night, and personally noticed single or pairs of women crossing the road to avoid me at night (not all, but some). My question is what about me the stranger walking at night that changes the way you behave? How can I appear a neutral party, when I am viewed as negative? In this same context, what about interacting with men leaves you feeling they are putting you down?

I have caught a few moments where people crossed the socially accepted line and seen people picking on others for no good reason, but until I a generic male know what to look for, its difficult, and I could use some perspective, without it immediately turning into "your wrong because!", explain some examples, let a generic man see from your point of view without generalizing about all men. As the moment those generalizations appear, my lizard brain sees it as an insult/attack towards me and tries to tune out. I don't want that to happen with these discussions.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 02, 2018, 08:30:32 pm
How can I appear a neutral party, when I am viewed as negative?

Appear as unthreatening as possible as far as fashion and behaviour is concerned. Other than that you can't and you shouldn't want to. They have no oracle, they are working off the priors they can observe and imperfect statistics. But it's generally still better than nothing. A little caution and a small detour to avoid a relatively common ruinous experience for women, pretty rational ... even if it signals sexism/racism don't take it personal.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 02, 2018, 10:13:19 pm
I actually had almost as many male teachers as female in primary school, no real correlation between quality of teaching and gender, I had some good ones and less good of both.

My observation is that nobody cares about gender ratios in a particular field until it's something with unusually high wages.
When I was at school in the 60s my primary school had a fairly balanced mix of male and female teachers. My high school had far more male than female teachers. That was the general picture across the UK, and I believe across many other developed countries. Now women dominate in both primary schools and high schools.

Your observation seems plausible, but consider this. For most engineers their pay sucks, and some people are making an increasing noise about it being male dominated. For most doctors, after some difficult early years, the pay is pretty good and pretty stable. Medical schools now have considerably more female than male students, and nobody is championing the cause of evening this up.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on August 02, 2018, 10:53:26 pm
There's a lot of perceived discrimination, when there is none in reality, so much so, that people are paranoid about saying the wrong thing.

My sister, her children and me were at the park yesterday. She watched a five year old mixed race (half white/black) boy on the monkey bars and commented on how he looked like a little monkey, was doing so well, swinging uphill. Fortunately his parent wasn't there and he didn't take offence, so nothing happened. A little later, when no one was there, we discussed how some may have viewed her comment as racist, but she would have said the same about any child, regardless of colour/race/gender etc. doing so well on the monkey bars.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 02, 2018, 11:13:13 pm
There's a lot of perceived discrimination, when there is none in reality, so much so, that people are paranoid about saying the wrong thing.

My sister, her children and me were at the park yesterday. She watched a five year old mixed race (half white/black) boy on the monkey bars and commented on how he looked like a little monkey, was doing so well, swinging uphill. Fortunately his parent wasn't there and he didn't take offence, so nothing happened. A little later, when no one was there, we discussed how some may have viewed her comment as racist, but she would have said the same about any child, regardless of colour/race/gender etc. doing so well on the monkey bars.
As a parent of mixed race kids (Chinese + European) it greatly annoys me when people feel compelled to assign a standardised identity to such people. We most often hear Barak Obama referred to as black. Most people refer to my kids as white. I'm not sure if people feel the need to assign the father's race to the children, or if its more about how the children look. Either way, these tags don't actually represent what these people are, but they do help with some really biased narratives.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Muxr on August 03, 2018, 12:22:58 am
You need no ones permission or approval to be an electronic hobbyist (at least in the west). Why is the hobby male dominated?

Solve that and I think you will solve why there are less women in the EE field.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on August 03, 2018, 01:51:00 am
When I was at school in the 60s my primary school had a fairly balanced mix of male and female teachers. My high school had far more male than female teachers. That was the general picture across the UK, and I believe across many other developed countries. Now women dominate in both primary schools and high schools.

Not quite my experience. There were no male teachers at the infant school I attended and one male teacher (close to retirement) at the junior school. At senior school there was a more balanced ratio, but women were probably in the majority.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 03, 2018, 02:03:04 am
The office staff used blue for Men and pink for Women, contrary to his instructions. Apparently, the staff had done this every year he'd been running the course, without fail. No profit motive, here.

About a century or more ago the cultural norm was to dress boys in pink (a "strong" colour) and girls in blue (a "weak") colour. Somehow, over time the convention flipped and we have what we have today. But it wasn't always that way.

For what it's worth (not much) I've never liked the color pink, and always rather liked the color blue. It would be interesting if there was a way to do an unbiased study of male and female color preference. Pink and purple just never appealed to me, not because I perceive them as feminine, I don't even think women look particularly good in those colors.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 03, 2018, 02:14:15 am
The office staff used blue for Men and pink for Women, contrary to his instructions. Apparently, the staff had done this every year he'd been running the course, without fail. No profit motive, here.

About a century or more ago the cultural norm was to dress boys in pink (a "strong" colour) and girls in blue (a "weak") colour. Somehow, over time the convention flipped and we have what we have today. But it wasn't always that way.

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/10/pink-used-common-color-boys-blue-girls/ (http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/10/pink-used-common-color-boys-blue-girls/)

For what it's worth (not much) I've never liked the color pink, and always rather liked the color blue. It would be interesting if there was a way to do an unbiased study of male and female color preference. Pink and purple just never appealed to me, not because I perceive them as feminine, I don't even think women look particularly good in those colors.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on August 03, 2018, 02:50:19 am
There's a lot of perceived discrimination, when there is none in reality, so much so, that people are paranoid about saying the wrong thing.

My sister, her children and me were at the park yesterday. She watched a five year old mixed race (half white/black) boy on the monkey bars and commented on how he looked like a little monkey, was doing so well, swinging uphill. Fortunately his parent wasn't there and he didn't take offence, so nothing happened. A little later, when no one was there, we discussed how some may have viewed her comment as racist, but she would have said the same about any child, regardless of colour/race/gender etc. doing so well on the monkey bars.
As a parent of mixed race kids (Chinese + European) it greatly annoys me when people feel compelled to assign a standardised identity to such people. We most often hear Barak Obama referred to as black. Most people refer to my kids as white. I'm not sure if people feel the need to assign the father's race to the children, or if its more about how the children look. Either way, these tags don't actually represent what these people are, but they do help with some really biased narratives.
Personally speaking, I use descriptions such as black, white and mixed race (half white/black) purely to describe appearance, rather than identity. Skin colour really is no different to any other physical attribute such as eye or hard colour and shouldn't be confused with cultural identity. I do find it odd that Barack Obama is described has black, when he's mixed race. I didn't know it was common practise in the US, to assign the father's race to the child. If Obama's mother was black and father white, would he be described as white? Seems daft to me.

Perhaps your children physically appear to be more European, than Chinese, therefore are assumed to be white/European, rather than Chinese or mixed race? A women where I work is mixed race Chinese/European but she's more European in appearance, so I assumed her to be white/European, until I discovered otherwise.

In the case of the child, playing I the park. I only saw his father, who was clearly black and the boy had much lighter skin and fewer African facial features, so I assumed his mother to be white, but she could very well be Chinese or south Asian, for all I know.

In any case, people will make assumptions about one's race, based on appearance, in the absence of any other information.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Eka on August 03, 2018, 03:14:40 am
You basically need to raise up two groups of kids (plus a control group) were one group is being isolated from any form of bias. Unfortunately that's being considered heavily unethical for the most of us.
How would you determine that there is no bias? You would need to raise a child devoid of all normal emotional interactions with others. That's going to have a few undesirable side effects.
No shit!!!

There are infant monkey studies where some got maternal care, some got a terry cloth covered wire mesh mom, and others got a wire mesh mom to nurse from. The outcomes were very different.

How you are treated as you grow up really has a very strong effect on how you develop.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: pelule on August 03, 2018, 03:37:16 am
I take it as it is - call me a stupid?
I prefer good knowledged engineering - I don't care if male, female or any other gender.
/PeLuLe
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 03, 2018, 03:43:10 am
You basically need to raise up two groups of kids (plus a control group) were one group is being isolated from any form of bias. Unfortunately that's being considered heavily unethical for the most of us.
How would you determine that there is no bias? You would need to raise a child devoid of all normal emotional interactions with others. That's going to have a few undesirable side effects.
No shit!!!

There are infant monkey studies where some got maternal care, some got a terry cloth covered wire mesh mom, and others got a wire mesh mom to nurse from. The outcomes were very different.

How you are treated as you grow up really has a very strong effect on how you develop.
I don't think its clear from those studies just how much the mother figure affects how the baby develops. They seem to show much more strongly that the mother figure affects whether they develop at all, or get trapped in their infancy.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rsjsouza on August 03, 2018, 04:58:50 am
In any case, people will make assumptions about one's race, based on appearance, in the absence of any other information.
Exactly. We are visual creatures and appearance assumptions are to be expected.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: b_force on August 04, 2018, 01:03:36 am
There is nothing better in a discussion than just try to disprove your own arguments.
Unfortunately, (no offence) but until now I haven't seen anything satisfying just yet.
Mostly it's just speculations mixed with subjective personal believes.

But today I ran into something else.
So here a little attempt to make some sense in the whole story.

Basically I was reading something about stamina vs ability to sweat vs muscle power.
One of the reasons why humans are so successful, is basically because in the long run they outperform any animal if it comes to endurance.
(except us lazy bums sitting in our labs writing forum messages, lol).
This has to to with our ability to sweat, vs specific muscle groups (and maybe also why we walk on two legs)

Also because how our muscles are formed, a fit human being can throw much harder and precise than the biggest gorilla as well as he is still able to solder 0603 SMD and handle screw drivers.
(precision work is an unique skill compared to other large animals).

It's also well known that physically men are stronger built than women.
So just by the laws of evolution, men were the workers and hunters since that gives best change of surviving.
Hunting means using tools, using tools means not only to understand to build them, but also how to repair/troubleshoot and improve them.
Not only does someone need all the hard skills, but also the brains to achieve these tasks.

Someone who is genetically better in that, has therefor a bigger change to survive in an "eaten or to be eaten" environment.
So in the long run men who were better in "engineering" tools, had a bigger change to survive.
Even until recently men had to do the physical work.
Using tools means you're also much more likely to be interested in them.

I think this is a satisfying explanation why guys in general will be better in engineering and technical stuff.
They basically were the only ones using them on a regular basis.
Also this bypasses the whole argument of social and cultural expectations and pressure.
So the whole bias argument is out of the window.


Of course nowadays these survival skills aren't needed anymore.
Besides, evolution -in an hard surviving kind of sense-, practically has stopped.
By that I mean, we don't need hard strong fit men anymore.
It's also just EXTREMLY recent that human beings aren't really dependent anymore on pure muscle power.
So most tasks that were done by men, are now done by machines.

What kind of conclusion does this bring us?
Well, nog much yet. It only explains that we might find a shifts in our social structure and needs.
To be very honest, (but that's just a speculation) I think we already see that.
Less and less people (guys) seem to be even able to assemble a simple ikea wardrobe anymore for example.

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: NiHaoMike on August 04, 2018, 01:37:55 am
A recent tour of the Creality 3D printer factory revealed that it was pretty much all girls who assembled the precision stuff while the guys handled the big stuff. And based on my experience across several companies, it's often Vietnamese women who do really challenging reworks.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: b_force on August 04, 2018, 02:07:14 am
A recent tour of the Creality 3D printer factory revealed that it was pretty much all girls who assembled the precision stuff while the guys handled the big stuff. And based on my experience across several companies, it's often Vietnamese women who do really challenging reworks.
Assembly jobs are mostly done by women.
Not only because they are cheaper, but it's also a left over from many wars, since most men were in the army.
The R&D jobs were/are mostly done by men though.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 04, 2018, 02:39:08 am
A recent tour of the Creality 3D printer factory revealed that it was pretty much all girls who assembled the precision stuff while the guys handled the big stuff. And based on my experience across several companies, it's often Vietnamese women who do really challenging reworks.
Assembly jobs are mostly done by women.
Not only because they are cheaper, but it's also a left over from many wars, since most men were in the army.
The R&D jobs were/are mostly done by men though.
It seems to be an aptitude issue, as well. If you go into a shop full of women doing simple assembly work they spend their days happily chatting while turning out correctly assembled parts, and sexually assaulting the one young guy who does any technical work required. If you go into a shop full of men doing simple assembly work its quiet, and the men look like someone took their soul and is off somewhere wacking it with a baseball bat.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 04, 2018, 03:28:34 am
What kind of conclusion does this bring us?
Well, nog much yet. It only explains that we might find a shifts in our social structure and needs.
Fitness = fertility x survival, men who don't procreate can't drive evolution. The feminization of men is almost certainly environmental, not genetic.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: In Vacuo Veritas on August 04, 2018, 05:05:12 am
A recent tour of the Creality 3D printer factory revealed that it was pretty much all girls who assembled the precision stuff while the guys handled the big stuff. And based on my experience across several companies, it's often Vietnamese women who do really challenging reworks.
Assembly jobs are mostly done by women.
Not only because they are cheaper, but it's also a left over from many wars, since most men were in the army.
The R&D jobs were/are mostly done by men though.

Smaller, nimbler fingers. I'm not a big guy but even my fingers are like numb battering rams if I need to do anything precise: this isn't genetic, but if a woman spent all day lifting heavy objects or whacking things with a hammer, her fingers would be less nimble as well.

I was once told that women make better fighter pilots than men because they pass out at higher Gs and this was proof that a uterus is superior to a scrotum somehow, until I pointed out it's a simple physics thing: the woman is smaller. Select a man built like a jockey and he'll do the same.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: mtdoc on August 04, 2018, 05:13:59 am

Hunting means using tools, using tools means not only to understand to build them, but also how to repair/troubleshoot and improve them.
Not only does someone need all the hard skills, but also the brains to achieve these tasks.

Someone who is genetically better in that, has therefor a bigger change to survive in an "eaten or to be eaten" environment.
So in the long run men who were better in "engineering" tools, had a bigger change to survive.
Even until recently men had to do the physical work.
Using tools means you're also much more likely to be interested in them.

I think this is a satisfying explanation why guys in general will be better in engineering and technical stuff.
They basically were the only ones using them on a regular basis.

Sounds reasonable - only it's wrong. Modern anthropologists and archeologists have understood for some time now that the discovery of predominantly ancient stone (and later bronze and iron) hunting tools is an artifact of the nature of the material. Only stone or metal lasts for millenia.  By observing tool use by "primitive" hunter gatherer tribes,  they realized that women created and used tools for gathering food, processing food, making clothing, etc just as much or more than men.  Some of these were stone or later bronze, iron, or pottery, but most are made from plant or animal material that simply does not survive more than a few centuries in most cases. 

Human evolutionary success has depended on increasing brain size, which meant that humans babys needed to be born neurologically immature (too big a head means high birth fatality rate). This meant it was necessary for women to stay with and tend the infants and young children. They therefore could not join in the hunt. But they did much of the gatthering and of course the preparing of food, clothes and shelter. These things also required tools. Bottom line - there is zero evidence that men historically made and used more tools than women.

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rsjsouza on August 04, 2018, 05:38:26 am
Of course nowadays these survival skills aren't needed anymore.
Besides, evolution -in an hard surviving kind of sense-, practically has stopped.
By that I mean, we don't need hard strong fit men anymore.
It's also just EXTREMLY recent that human beings aren't really dependent anymore on pure muscle power.
So most tasks that were done by men, are now done by machines.

What kind of conclusion does this bring us?
Well, nog much yet. It only explains that we might find a shifts in our social structure and needs.
To be very honest, (but that's just a speculation) I think we already see that.
Less and less people (guys) seem to be even able to assemble a simple ikea wardrobe anymore for example.
Despite some mechanization, several jobs inside and outside urban areas still require muscles and brute force. Take for example the heavylifting in retail stores, harbors or more remote places where lumberjacks, miners, farmers, fishermen and many more are absolutely critical to sustain the urban populations.

Heavy lifting is still quite pervasive in our society, but no equality demands or bias accusations are done for these areas: these discussions are reserved to the higher paying jobs performed by the meek citizens.

And if you are looking for a major shift in society, that already happened: the majority of population lives in urban areas nowadays. These discussions are a consequence of that.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: NiHaoMike on August 04, 2018, 06:40:58 am
Smaller, nimbler fingers. I'm not a big guy but even my fingers are like numb battering rams if I need to do anything precise: this isn't genetic, but if a woman spent all day lifting heavy objects or whacking things with a hammer, her fingers would be less nimble as well.
Rinoa Super-Genius does a lot of heavy physical stuff regularly and isn't too good with SMD rework, but I attribute that to her not having done it much at all. Judging by the video where she lifts one end of a Nissan Leaf battery, she's not only stronger than most women but also a lot of men as well.

Then there's Micah Elizabeth Scott who is really good with SMD reworking. Not sure exactly how strong she is but she was able to install a rackmount UPS and some 4U servers into a rack with no assistance. If we assume there's a tradeoff between strength and precision, then she seems to be right in the optimal range for working on electronics.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 04, 2018, 07:42:11 am
There are exceptions to any rule. There are women out there who are very physically strong, there are women who are genuinely very interested in engineering, there are men who are passionate nurses and preschool teachers. That doesn't mean it's not true that on average these are not the statistical norm, and it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 04, 2018, 08:38:03 am
Smaller, nimbler fingers. I'm not a big guy but even my fingers are like numb battering rams if I need to do anything precise: this isn't genetic, but if a woman spent all day lifting heavy objects or whacking things with a hammer, her fingers would be less nimble as well.
Rinoa Super-Genius does a lot of heavy physical stuff regularly and isn't too good with SMD rework, but I attribute that to her not having done it much at all. Judging by the video where she lifts one end of a Nissan Leaf battery, she's not only stronger than most women but also a lot of men as well.

Then there's Micah Elizabeth Scott who is really good with SMD reworking. Not sure exactly how strong she is but she was able to install a rackmount UPS and some 4U servers into a rack with no assistance. If we assume there's a tradeoff between strength and precision, then she seems to be right in the optimal range for working on electronics.


it might be controversial to say it out loud but I think it should be obvious that those two examples might not be that
applicable when looking at averages for the "general population"

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: NiHaoMike on August 04, 2018, 09:16:33 am
Rinoa Super-Genius does a lot of heavy physical stuff regularly and isn't too good with SMD rework, but I attribute that to her not having done it much at all. Judging by the video where she lifts one end of a Nissan Leaf battery, she's not only stronger than most women but also a lot of men as well.

Then there's Micah Elizabeth Scott who is really good with SMD reworking. Not sure exactly how strong she is but she was able to install a rackmount UPS and some 4U servers into a rack with no assistance. If we assume there's a tradeoff between strength and precision, then she seems to be right in the optimal range for working on electronics.
it might be controversial to say it out loud but I think it should be obvious that those two examples might not be that
applicable when looking at averages for the "general population"
Women who do really well at engineering and technology are obviously not average. And men who do really well at engineering and technology aren't average either.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Rerouter on August 04, 2018, 09:46:03 am
How nimble your fingers are doesn't really come down to how strong you are, Rather simply how much precision work you do day to day,

There is defiantly short term trade offs at play, e.g. after doing manual labor for a few hours, or when carrying items that require heavy use a of a few fingers, mine stiffen up, but a half hour later they are back to accurately placing 0201 resistors. Now that manual work has left the skin on the underside of my fingers thicker than elsewhere, but unless you have solvents drying out your hands day to day this generally doesn't harden the skin to the point where you loose fine motor control.

To clarify, brutish work requiring a lot of force generally builds up slow twitch muscle, however how well you control this muscle group is purely down to practice.

As for lifting, how much mass a person can move about comes largely down to technique and what tools you have available. You cannot lift as much as you can carry if your technique is poor.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 04, 2018, 10:00:07 am
Rinoa Super-Genius does a lot of heavy physical stuff regularly and isn't too good with SMD rework, but I attribute that to her not having done it much at all. Judging by the video where she lifts one end of a Nissan Leaf battery, she's not only stronger than most women but also a lot of men as well.

Then there's Micah Elizabeth Scott who is really good with SMD reworking. Not sure exactly how strong she is but she was able to install a rackmount UPS and some 4U servers into a rack with no assistance. If we assume there's a tradeoff between strength and precision, then she seems to be right in the optimal range for working on electronics.
it might be controversial to say it out loud but I think it should be obvious that those two examples might not be that
applicable when looking at averages for the "general population"
Women who do really well at engineering and technology are obviously not average. And men who do really well at engineering and technology aren't average either.

when discussion the possible difference in inclinations of XX vs. XY  mixing the two is just adding to the confusion


Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: b_force on August 04, 2018, 09:22:15 pm

Hunting means using tools, using tools means not only to understand to build them, but also how to repair/troubleshoot and improve them.
Not only does someone need all the hard skills, but also the brains to achieve these tasks.

Someone who is genetically better in that, has therefor a bigger change to survive in an "eaten or to be eaten" environment.
So in the long run men who were better in "engineering" tools, had a bigger change to survive.
Even until recently men had to do the physical work.
Using tools means you're also much more likely to be interested in them.

I think this is a satisfying explanation why guys in general will be better in engineering and technical stuff.
They basically were the only ones using them on a regular basis.

Sounds reasonable - only it's wrong. Modern anthropologists and archeologists have understood for some time now that the discovery of predominantly ancient stone (and later bronze and iron) hunting tools is an artifact of the nature of the material. Only stone or metal lasts for millenia.  By observing tool use by "primitive" hunter gatherer tribes,  they realized that women created and used tools for gathering food, processing food, making clothing, etc just as much or more than men.  Some of these were stone or later bronze, iron, or pottery, but most are made from plant or animal material that simply does not survive more than a few centuries in most cases. 

Human evolutionary success has depended on increasing brain size, which meant that humans babys needed to be born neurologically immature (too big a head means high birth fatality rate). This meant it was necessary for women to stay with and tend the infants and young children. They therefore could not join in the hunt. But they did much of the gatthering and of course the preparing of food, clothes and shelter. These things also required tools. Bottom line - there is zero evidence that men historically made and used more tools than women.
Yes I agree.
I forgot to add the nurturing part for babies.

I guess the whole point of my explanation, is that if we want to understand the so called "preferences" (and if there are any or not), it needs to be seen from this far back in history.
All the other arguments are very subjective, where it's basically impossible to distinguish social/cultural bias from pure biological/genetic reasons.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on August 05, 2018, 03:53:48 am
All the other arguments are very subjective, where it's basically impossible to distinguish social/cultural bias from pure biological/genetic reasons.

I’d also ask in the context of the discussion of the gender gap in STEM, does it matter, as long as there is equality of opportunity and nobody’s being oppressed?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: b_force on August 05, 2018, 04:23:35 am
All the other arguments are very subjective, where it's basically impossible to distinguish social/cultural bias from pure biological/genetic reasons.

I’d also ask in the context of the discussion of the gender gap in STEM, does it matter, as long as there is equality of opportunity and nobody’s being oppressed?
I don't follow?
Of course it doesn't matter.
It's just a more in depth discussion about the subject.  :-//
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: mtdoc on August 05, 2018, 04:40:40 am
I guess the whole point of my explanation, is that if we want to understand the so called "preferences" (and if there are any or not), it needs to be seen from this far back in history.
I agree.

Quote
All the other arguments are very subjective, where it's basically impossible to distinguish social/cultural bias from pure biological/genetic reasons.

Yes and that’s why I find these discussions on this forum kind of pointless. A bunch of (mostly) male engineers talking about how they don’t see any sexism/discrimination and it’s all equal opportunity in engineering is kind of a preordained outcome. Sure, an occasional cherry picked study is cited but there really is no objective analysis here that I’ve seen.   It’s mostly good intentions but as the saying goes, they pave the road to...  The SJW have good intentions as well.  Like most things in this category, the truth is likely somewhere in between.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: b_force on August 05, 2018, 05:04:16 am
I guess the whole point of my explanation, is that if we want to understand the so called "preferences" (and if there are any or not), it needs to be seen from this far back in history.
I agree.

Quote
All the other arguments are very subjective, where it's basically impossible to distinguish social/cultural bias from pure biological/genetic reasons.

Yes and that’s why I find these discussions on this forum kind of pointless. A bunch of (mostly) male engineers talking about how they don’t see any sexism/discrimination and it’s all equal opportunity in engineering is kind of a preordained outcome. Sure, an occasional cherry picked study is cited but there really is no objective analysis here that I’ve seen.   It’s mostly good intentions but as the saying goes, they pave the road to...  The SJW have good intentions as well.  Like most things in this category, the truth is likely somewhere in between.
Thank you for speaking out loud my thoughts lol.
Even when people don't know all the answers, it can still be possible to have a constructive and objective discussion about something with the right mindset. At least to examine and test certain thoughts qne hypothesis.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on August 05, 2018, 06:19:12 am
Yes and that’s why I find these discussions on this forum kind of pointless. A bunch of (mostly) male engineers talking about how they don’t see any sexism/discrimination and it’s all equal opportunity in engineering is kind of a preordained outcome. Sure, an occasional cherry picked study is cited but there really is no objective analysis here that I’ve seen.   It’s mostly good intentions but as the saying goes, they pave the road to...  The SJW have good intentions as well.  Like most things in this category, the truth is likely somewhere in between.

None of this addresses the reason why so few women are interested in engineering, or if that in itself is actually a problem at all.

I am not sure anyone’s saying there isn’t sexism and discrimination in engineering, any more so than in any other vocation. To be absolutely clear I am not excusing it, I just don’t see it as any more prevalent in engineering, it’s a problem throughout all workplaces. When it is there, it needs pointing out.

A good deal of it is because there is a clear power imbalance at play here between HR and bosses and the employee, but that exists for both men an women. Nobody likes to rock the boat, after all it’s their livelihoods, but anecdotally in my experience women are less likely to rock that boat than men are. Men are more likely to take risks, push for more salary, and ultimately find a new job if they don’t get what they want. Also anecdotally it's not at all unusual for women in particular who have families to have negotiated over time some fairly family friendly terms, terms they almost certainly wouldn’t get if they left for a new job.

Where the line is drawn for me is the difference between equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. The former is to be always to be encouraged, the latter is not. Equality of outcome, when applied universally, by its very nature is going to be oppressive and authoritarian, and I don’t much like that. When applied as a targeted approach it’s tokenism, and I don’t much like that either.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 05, 2018, 06:51:54 am
The SJW have good intentions as well.  Like most things in this category, the truth is likely somewhere in between.

You can stand on the side of freedom of association and be against SJWs regardless of evidence or intentions, simply on principle.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 05, 2018, 07:25:27 am
Yes and that’s why I find these discussions on this forum kind of pointless. A bunch of (mostly) male engineers talking about how they don’t see any sexism/discrimination and it’s all equal opportunity in engineering is kind of a preordained outcome. Sure, an occasional cherry picked study is cited but there really is no objective analysis here that I’ve seen.   It’s mostly good intentions but as the saying goes, they pave the road to...  The SJW have good intentions as well.  Like most things in this category, the truth is likely somewhere in between.

But a lot of us DO see discrimination. I have worked at multiple companies that had various affirmative action type policies. The bar is quite literally lower for a woman or minority who applies, and if there are two widely similar candidates, one of each gender the woman will almost invariably get the offer. Resumes from women are rare so they nearly 100% get through the initial HR filter if they are even remotely qualified for the job. When I was interviewing candidates maybe 5-10% of the resumes that I got were from women and yet the ratio of women working there was far higher, around 30-35%. There is absolutely discrimination, however it is rarely mentioned because it doesn't fit the agenda based on the assumption that there should be a 50/50 mix, unless the field is already dominated by women in which case nobody cares about the ratio.

There is no barrier unless they have made one for themselves, if more women gain the skills required and apply for the jobs then more women will have those jobs, it's as simple as that.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: KL27x on August 05, 2018, 07:30:42 am
Quote
Where the line is drawn for me is the difference between equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. The former is to be always to be encouraged, the latter is not. Equality of outcome, when applied universally, by its very nature is going to be oppressive and authoritarian, and I don’t much like that. When applied as a targeted approach it’s tokenism, and I don’t much like that either.
This is well said and a beautiful idea. But if you actually let this happen, Asian men will take over. And you will find magically find a need to change the criteria.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 05, 2018, 07:36:47 am
This is well said and a beautiful idea. But if you actually let this happen, Asian men will take over. And you will find magically find a need to change the criteria.
Why do you think Asian men would take over?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: KL27x on August 05, 2018, 07:43:28 am
Why do i think that? Because quotas are already needed to keep things as balanced as they are. In addition to unofficial hiring bias. The outcome is already being adjusted to be what it is. The current rebalancing for women/gender is nothing new, just the latest.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 05, 2018, 07:58:27 am
Why do i think that? Because quotas are already needed to keep things as balanced as they are.
You would need to quote chapter and verse for examples of what you have in mind there.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: KL27x on August 05, 2018, 08:29:17 am
No, you can quote the bible for w/e you want to believe.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 05, 2018, 09:38:27 am
No, you can quote the bible for w/e you want to believe.
Is chapter and verse not a term that works outside the UK? Cite, man, cite. Pin down your claims.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 05, 2018, 02:17:32 pm
What does the bible have to do with any of this? I must have missed something.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 05, 2018, 03:15:25 pm
This is well said and a beautiful idea. But if you actually let this happen, Asian men will take over. And you will find magically find a need to change the criteria.

Perhaps, but given US college admissions it seems meritocracy is still "our" best bet. The Asians are certainly ascendant, but the most meritocratic of the big tech colleges (Caltech) also has the highest percentage non Hispanic whites.

The nepotism among Indians and Chinese is a bit annoying, but the market will punish any company which lets them get too much out of line. For every Intel there is an Apple, for every Microsoft an Amazon.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on August 05, 2018, 05:27:57 pm
Quote
Where the line is drawn for me is the difference between equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. The former is to be always to be encouraged, the latter is not. Equality of outcome, when applied universally, by its very nature is going to be oppressive and authoritarian, and I don’t much like that. When applied as a targeted approach it’s tokenism, and I don’t much like that either.
This is well said and a beautiful idea. But if you actually let this happen, Asian men will take over. And you will find magically find a need to change the criteria.

That’s been happening here for the past fifteen years. I still see no reason to change the criteria.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on August 05, 2018, 06:37:54 pm
It seems like there's some racial prejustice going on here.

And what do you mean by Asian men? Asia is a huge continent, with several different human races and many more cultures and religions.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on August 06, 2018, 06:29:42 am
I am sure some will feel I’m out of line here, but the original point is about gender politics, not racism. While both exhibit forms of discrimination, they are significantly different topics, with very different localised issues that don’t equate well across an international forum, or even just within the Western world.

While I don’t want to stifle debate, I’d strongly suggest it’s off topic for this conversation.

Gender politics, on the other hand, seems to be a new industry invented over the past couple of decades that’s gained some traction across the Western world. I don’t know if it’s found its way into the rest of humanity yet, or, indeed, if that’s where it came from (I think I can probably guess the correct answer to that one already).
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Circlotron on August 06, 2018, 07:38:44 am
No, you can quote the bible for w/e you want to believe.
Is chapter and verse not a term that works outside the UK? Cite, man, cite. Pin down your claims.
In Australia you can quote the law chapter and verse for example.
It simply means quoting it precisely word for word, especially with reference to where it can be found, not simply generalising.

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: NiHaoMike on August 06, 2018, 08:58:25 am
This is well said and a beautiful idea. But if you actually let this happen, Asian men will take over. And you will find magically find a need to change the criteria.
Why do you think Asian men would take over?
In my experience, it seems like Indians dominate the tech jobs in the US.

And for the one who didn't like my first two examples for physically strong women who do wonderful things related to technology, how about April Wilkerson? She released a video today that included her showing off her strength. Albeit she and her friends AnneOfAllTrades and Laura Kampf are more in the realm of mechanical engineering.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 06, 2018, 09:38:16 am
This is well said and a beautiful idea. But if you actually let this happen, Asian men will take over. And you will find magically find a need to change the criteria.
Why do you think Asian men would take over?
In my experience, it seems like Indians dominate the tech jobs in the US.
Some US tech companies have a large Indian contingent, and some have a large East Asian contingent, mostly Chinese. A large number are people who went the US to study and stayed, or went to the US a little later in life on H1B or other visas. I think the number of Indians has been falling, as they have better opportunities in India these days. I expect the number of Chinese will also fall, as opportunities in China steadily improve. This suits the US tech companies, as they are very happy to build up their R&D centres in Asia, and employ the people there.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 06, 2018, 11:02:03 am
They like the low cost of living and wages. They don't like being exposed to the economic risks of India nor the geopolitical risks of China, nor the corruption and nepotism ... they prefer infinite H1Bs.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 06, 2018, 12:30:31 pm
Scholarships to visit Shenzen, girls only of course.

(https://i.imgur.com/ITNeCC7.png)


Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Halcyon on August 06, 2018, 12:34:42 pm
Only bad can come of this. Instead of employing the best person for the job, we'll start to see organisations going down the drain simply because they need to meet some arbitrary quota.

This kind of crap goes against diversity.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 06, 2018, 12:36:50 pm
Scholarships to visit Shenzen, girls only of course.

(https://i.imgur.com/ITNeCC7.png)

And why woman only?
Because apparently women were worried about the expense:
http://shehacks.com.au/2017/09/vela-georgiev-hardworx/ (http://shehacks.com.au/2017/09/vela-georgiev-hardworx/)

(https://i.imgur.com/lzZYWiE.png)

I do wonder if the (presumably paying) 15yo kid was even considered?
It says students. I was a full time engineering student when I was 15...
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 06, 2018, 12:40:10 pm
I am sure some will feel I’m out of line here, but the original point is about gender politics, not racism. While both exhibit forms of discrimination, they are significantly different topics, with very different localised issues that don’t equate well across an international forum, or even just within the Western world.
While I don’t want to stifle debate, I’d strongly suggest it’s off topic for this conversation.

Yes, this thread is about gender politics in engineering.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: amyk on August 06, 2018, 01:06:50 pm
Start discriminating on gender, and you'll just start seeing more people hack the system. (https://www.reddit.com/r/alberta/comments/8fsqos/i_saved_15_or_more_on_car_insurance_by_switching/)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on August 06, 2018, 09:40:20 pm
Start discriminating on gender, and you'll just start seeing more people hack the system. (https://www.reddit.com/r/alberta/comments/8fsqos/i_saved_15_or_more_on_car_insurance_by_switching/)

The European Court of Justice, which interprets and equally applies law across EU member states, ruled that price discrimination based on gender, conflicts with EU rules on gender equality. This was raised in respect of car insurance premium disparity, but applies to all insurance and financial services. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12608777 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12608777)

While the ruling might have potentially benefited me, to my mind it makes little sense, as men are a demonstrably higher risk when it comes to car insurance. However, if society is going to push and push incessantly for equality of outcome, be careful of what you wish for.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 07, 2018, 01:00:16 am
I have mixed thoughts on that, I mean statistically men *are* more expensive for insurance companies, statistically we have more serious accidents. That's not bias, it's hard data and unlike some, I'm not offended by generalizations about my gender that when looked at with a sufficiently large sample, are absolutely true.

If we are going to pretend that there are no fundamental differences and everyone starts with a blank slate then yes we should not have any discrimination based on such things anywhere, but I would prefer we just be realistic about it and embrace the fact that there are differences. The differences are what makes diversity worthwhile to begin with.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on August 07, 2018, 08:27:26 am
Glad I read the whole of your post and not just the last sentence on its own!
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 07, 2018, 08:57:58 am
While the ruling might have potentially benefited me, to my mind it makes little sense, as men are a demonstrably higher risk when it comes to car insurance.

Depends on what information the insurer can take into account. Per distance men have fewer accidents on average, but the insurance generally can't charge per km. Also men are more likely to drive larger vehicles, which makes accidents while backing up a lot more likely for instance. They can take that into account and after the EU ruling the disparity between average men and average women actually got worse.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 07, 2018, 09:10:11 am
While the ruling might have potentially benefited me, to my mind it makes little sense, as men are a demonstrably higher risk when it comes to car insurance.

Depends on what information the insurer can take into account. Per distance men have fewer accidents on average, but the insurance generally can't charge per km. Also men are more likely to drive larger vehicles, which makes accidents while backing up a lot more likely for instance. They can take that into account and after the EU ruling the disparity between men and women actually got worse.

I seem to remember and article stating the statistically women had more slow speed accidents like parking etc. and men, especially young men, many more serious high speed accidents

 





Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rsjsouza on August 07, 2018, 01:36:21 pm
Scholarships to visit Shenzen, girls only of course.
(...)

And why woman only?
Because apparently women were worried about the expense:
http://shehacks.com.au/2017/09/vela-georgiev-hardworx/ (http://shehacks.com.au/2017/09/vela-georgiev-hardworx/)

(https://i.imgur.com/lzZYWiE.png)

I do wonder if the (presumably paying) 15yo kid was even considered?
It says students. I was a full time engineering student when I was 15...

Wow... While I can understand that in certain parts of the world it is quite necessary to attract the interest of women students, I don't think Australia would be one of them.

Besides, the subsequent explanation for why to do so "to improve diversity" is pure BS - diversity comes from differents walks of life regardless of gender. If they want to reward people that were not interested or driven enough to apply, that is a complete inversion of values. What a waste of resources to send two people uninterested while other two very driven were left out.

I haven't personally experienced or witnessed affirmative action in the places I worked, but I certainly have heard stories about it.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 07, 2018, 01:51:30 pm
diversity comes from differents walks of life regardless of gender.


This.

There is a large tech company that is well known for preaching diversity in the hiring process, yet they hire almost exclusively the exact same personality type, CS degree, age range, etc. Their idea of diversity is to discriminate based on race and gender in order to force a "diverse" workforce of like-thinking people.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on August 07, 2018, 04:29:58 pm
Only bad can come of this. Instead of employing the best person for the job, we'll start to see organisations going down the drain simply because they need to meet some arbitrary quota.

This kind of crap goes against diversity.

Except right now we don't award the best applicants for jobs already.

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474 (http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474)

this experiment and writeup  (I posted earlier in this thread) showed that for a single job application written for a lab manager role, and then given to people for review where the same application had just the name changed, when the name was male rather than female the application was scored higher on
1) reviewer's judgement of suitability for a role
2) reviewer's estimated salary for the applicant.
3) would the reviewer like to mentor the applicant.

this experiment has been tested by lots of people in smaller ways (other job application situations, submitted scientific papers, etc) and basically in tech fields when you take a standard *anything* and send it off with different names on it, to be judged by a bunch of people, men are consistently discriminated FOR, and women are consistently discriminated AGAINST.

Studies like this show that outside of anything else,  having a female name in a tech endeavour gets your work judged more harshly and valued less than if you had a male name.

with that in mind, this women only scholarship doesn't seem so bad.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 07, 2018, 05:24:07 pm
On average the chance of a female grad student to get pregnant is an infinite multiple of the chance a born male one will. Just changing the sex changes a significant prior affecting their predicted productivity not captured in the rest of the text of the application.

To what extent the discrimination is statistically justified (from a productivity/cost optimization point of view) and to what extent it is prejudicial is hard to say ... but fact remains, Bayesian mathematics is sexist.

PS. my solution, try to estimate the costs and give the department head extra budget when a phd student or employee gets pregnant. Try to remove the opportunity cost for hiring a woman from the one making the hiring decisions, instead of demanding he becomes wilfully blind. Then you can start measuring prejudice.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rsjsouza on August 07, 2018, 08:20:27 pm
with that in mind, this women only scholarship doesn't seem so bad.
Except that we can only work with the facts presented to us in the article linked by Dave. While the justification presented by you may be perfectly sound in a more general term (and I have seen this happen in a distant past), it was not the same argument presented by the organizer of the scolarship. At least to me, this does not change the issue at hand which is the risk of sending people less interested in place of others.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 07, 2018, 08:42:18 pm
with that in mind, this women only scholarship doesn't seem so bad.
Except that we can only work with the facts presented to us in the article linked by Dave. While the justification presented by you may be perfectly sound in a more general term (and I have seen this happen in a distant past), it was not the same argument presented by the organizer of the scolarship. At least to me, this does not change the issue at hand which is the risk of sending people less interested in place of others.

Indeed.
The organisers reasoning for making the scholorship female only seems quite specific.
i.e. they were surprised that no females applied, and hence this must a problem that needs correcting, ok. But then they supposedly found a reason to justify a solution to this newly found problem (females maybe can't afford it).
They are free to do whatever they want of course, and that's fine.
But I think it's an interesting example of how things seem to work these days.
Indeed, some of the justifications these days border on extreme condescension toward women, and it's at the same time both humorous and perplexing that they are unable to see that in their own logic. Which is a why a lot older school feminists really dislike this stuff too.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on August 07, 2018, 10:39:34 pm
Start discriminating on gender, and you'll just start seeing more people hack the system. (https://www.reddit.com/r/alberta/comments/8fsqos/i_saved_15_or_more_on_car_insurance_by_switching/)

The European Court of Justice, which interprets and equally applies law across EU member states, ruled that price discrimination based on gender, conflicts with EU rules on gender equality. This was raised in respect of car insurance premium disparity, but applies to all insurance and financial services. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12608777 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12608777)

While the ruling might have potentially benefited me, to my mind it makes little sense, as men are a demonstrably higher risk when it comes to car insurance. However, if society is going to push and push incessantly for equality of outcome, be careful of what you wish for.

In the Netherlands there are a number of insurance companies who target specific groups like women and people with higher education, however they are not allowed to refuse services based on those criteria. I once made use of a car insurance targeting women, they send me all documents on pink paper with a flower motive  :-DD

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 07, 2018, 11:07:27 pm
Only bad can come of this. Instead of employing the best person for the job, we'll start to see organisations going down the drain simply because they need to meet some arbitrary quota.

This kind of crap goes against diversity.

Except right now we don't award the best applicants for jobs already.

[...]
Exactly. And similar experiments have been done with “ethnic” vs local-sounding names (in various countries), and you see similar things. Just a month or two ago, a Jamaican job seeker here in Zurich did an experiment, where he reapplied to 20 job openings he’d been rejected from, using the same resume and cover letters, but changed the name on them to something Swiss sounding, and replaced the photo (generally a requirement here) to one of his white grandfather. 17 of the companies invited the “new” him for an interview. Discrimination in hiring is rampant, unfortunately, on pretty much any criterion one could be discriminated by.

This is why I am firmly of the belief that the first step in any hiring process, literally before ANY applications are looked at in any way, never mind discarded, should be to completely anonymize all applications.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 07, 2018, 11:41:56 pm
Except right now we don't award the best applicants for jobs already.

http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474 (http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474)

this experiment and writeup  (I posted earlier in this thread) showed that for a single job application written for a lab manager role, and then given to people for review where the same application had just the name changed, when the name was male rather than female the application was scored higher on
1) reviewer's judgement of suitability for a role
2) reviewer's estimated salary for the applicant.
3) would the reviewer like to mentor the applicant.

this experiment has been tested by lots of people in smaller ways (other job application situations, submitted scientific papers, etc) and basically in tech fields when you take a standard *anything* and send it off with different names on it, to be judged by a bunch of people, men are consistently discriminated FOR, and women are consistently discriminated AGAINST.

Studies like this show that outside of anything else,  having a female name in a tech endeavour gets your work judged more harshly and valued less than if you had a male name.

with that in mind, this women only scholarship doesn't seem so bad.
When you see more detail of how most studies of this type are conducted, its usually harder to draw any conclusions. For example, as presented the study wouldn't work. If you have a pile of CVs, copy each of them, and put a male name and a female name on each pair, the people given them for review would smell a rat very quickly. They might miss a couple of times that they've seen the exact same CV before, but they won't keep missing this for very long. The description says that instead they had 127 reviewers, gave the male CVs to one half (actually 63) and the female CVs to the other half (actually 64), but these numbers are too small to draw any conclusions from the results. The mix of people in each group could have considerably skewed the results with such a modest sized pool of reviewers.

I find it interesting that they found female and male reviewers were equally biased against a CV with a woman's name on it. Really? No difference at all? That seems a truly remarkable outcome.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rsjsouza on August 08, 2018, 01:40:16 am
This is why I am firmly of the belief that the first step in any hiring process, literally before ANY applications are looked at in any way, never mind discarded, should be to completely anonymize all applications.
I wholeheartedly agree with that. All power to hire the best candidate.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 08, 2018, 02:56:29 am
This is why I am firmly of the belief that the first step in any hiring process, literally before ANY applications are looked at in any way, never mind discarded, should be to completely anonymize all applications.

Employers will wait till the interview to weed out young women if they want to do so (whether for rational reasons, ie. maternity costs, or prejudice). How about reference checking and personal referrals? Do you want to create mechanisms for that to be done anonymously with penalties to ensure adherence?

Fuck that ... life's not fair, trying to bludgeon it into being so can make life more annoying as well as unfair. Balance in all things.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 08, 2018, 03:28:50 am
I still don't think there is much of any "weeding out" of women going on. Women applying to engineering jobs are so rare that they tend to get the fast track, quite the opposite of being weeded out. The bar is lower for women who apply, not higher.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 08, 2018, 03:43:00 am
They like the low cost of living and wages. They don't like being exposed to the economic risks of India nor the geopolitical risks of China, nor the corruption and nepotism ... they prefer infinite H1Bs.
Try travelling around the business areas of Bangalore. You might drive down a single street and see sites for 10 to 20 of the world's best know tech companies, and few of them are small sites. Most have at least a few hundred people working there, and some have thousands. They have a very high percentage of engineers, with a rather small number of support staff. I don't know anywhere in China to compare with that concentration, but the number of large research and design centres in China, owned by western companies, has grow considerably in the last few years.

Don't expect to see many new chairs in US science and engineering faculties sponsored by American companies. They would rather create chairs in Asian faculties, where the growth lies.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on August 08, 2018, 04:39:25 am
I still don't think there is much of any "weeding out" of women going on. Women applying to engineering jobs are so rare that they tend to get the fast track, quite the opposite of being weeded out. The bar is lower for women who apply, not higher.

Certainly when I’ve been interviewing for technical roles, a CV/resume from a woman will pretty much guarantee an interview.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 08, 2018, 05:08:20 am
I still don't think there is much of any "weeding out" of women going on. Women applying to engineering jobs are so rare that they tend to get the fast track, quite the opposite of being weeded out. The bar is lower for women who apply, not higher.
Certainly when I’ve been interviewing for technical roles, a CV/resume from a woman will pretty much guarantee an interview.
My experience is the same. You have to allow for the novelty angle of a woman applying for an electronics engineering job, though, at least in the UK. A CV from a woman is frequently the first one the reviewer has ever seen. They really are that rare. She's bound to get called for interview, if only for the interviewer to enjoy the novel experience. At the end of the day, though, most people are looking for reasons to offer a woman a job, rather than looking for reasons to deny one. Most engineers like to mix things up a bit.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on August 08, 2018, 05:20:52 am
My experience is the same. You have to allow for the novelty angle of a woman applying for an electronics engineering job, though, at least in the UK.

That rarity is weird though. There are plenty of women doing mechanical, civil or chemical engineering, or for that matter being physicists or chemists.

Is it the electrons that put women off, or the people they would have to work with?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 08, 2018, 05:43:20 am
Maybe it would be worth asking a bunch of women in other areas of engineering and find out what attracted them to that area or repelled them from others?

One observation I've had, which is anecdotal at best, is that electronics engineers tend to be *really* into it. They design hardware by day, and usually do the same as a hobby in their free time. This seems to be less true for other areas of engineering but again it's just an observation. I have also observed that quite a few electrical/electronics engineers exhibit symptoms of high-functioning autism or Aspergers, "disorders" that are far more common in men.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 08, 2018, 05:44:22 am
My experience is the same. You have to allow for the novelty angle of a woman applying for an electronics engineering job, though, at least in the UK.

That rarity is weird though. There are plenty of women doing mechanical, civil or chemical engineering, or for that matter being physicists or chemists.

Is it the electrons that put women off, or the people they would have to work with?
Plenty might be an exaggeration. Statistics say the numbers of women are still pretty low in most other engineering disciplines, but they do seem particularly low in electronics. Its similar for embedded software. Advertise for someone to develop software, keep it vague, and women apply. Add magic words like "embedded" and the female CVs disappear. Its probably better to go for the later approach, though. Most of the female applicants attracted by the vague ad lose interest when they find out the nature of the work at the interview.

Apparently if you want to find lots of women with "engineer" in their job title you have to look for places where engineering intersects with life sciences.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on August 08, 2018, 07:47:03 am

Except that we can only work with the facts presented to us in the article linked by Dave. While the justification presented by you may be perfectly sound in a more general term (and I have seen this happen in a distant past), it was not the same argument presented by the organizer of the scolarship. At least to me, this does not change the issue at hand which is the risk of sending people less interested in place of others.

the issue is that article is ONE LITTLE THING written about a year ago, about a little scholarship that only has two positions (and some really savage other limitations around startup status and personal income) and here we have a bunch of grown men jumping up and down and screaming about just the gender aspect of it, while doing all they can to deny any real evidence presented of real structural discrimination in favour of men.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on August 08, 2018, 07:50:59 am

When you see more detail of how most studies of this type are conducted, its usually harder to draw any conclusions. For example, as presented the study wouldn't work. If you have a pile of CVs, copy each of them, and put a male name and a female name on each pair, the people given them for review would smell a rat very quickly. They might miss a couple of times that they've seen the exact same CV before, but they won't keep missing this for very long. The description says that instead they had 127 reviewers, gave the male CVs to one half (actually 63) and the female CVs to the other half (actually 64), but these numbers are too small to draw any conclusions from the results. The mix of people in each group could have considerably skewed the results with such a modest sized pool of reviewers.

I find it interesting that they found female and male reviewers were equally biased against a CV with a woman's name on it. Really? No difference at all? That seems a truly remarkable outcome.
[/quote]

the study obviously *can't* send the exact same application with just the names changed to one person! but there's plenty of experiments that need to be done where we can only do the experiment once on one specific setup.. that's why they make sure the study is done across a balanced selection of subjects and CONTROL the study so that statistically the results can still make sense.

and yes the fact that it's men and women doing the discrimination equally show sexism is a social problem ingrained into our society....
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on August 08, 2018, 07:53:05 am
Fuck that ... life's not fair, trying to bludgeon it into being so can make life more annoying as well as unfair. Balance in all things.

how convenient, that we should all just ignore any and all structural inequity in society that happens to benefit you.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 08, 2018, 07:56:59 am
the study obviously *can't* send the exact same application with just the names changed to one person! but there's plenty of experiments that need to be done where we can only do the experiment once on one specific setup.. that's why they make sure the study is done across a balanced selection of subjects and CONTROL the study so that statistically the results can still make sense.
Actually a lot of those experiments DO just change the personal info on the CV and leave everything else unchanged. You think an HR person that receives 200-2000 applications per job opening is going to remember that they saw an otherwise identical CV? They’ll have looked at many from other people who are also essentially identical, too. And most likely, they won’t even have read the cover letters at all until making the short list.

I think there’s a lot of misconceptions about how modern HR works. It’s not nearly the touchy-feely hands-on process that maybe existed in the past. It’s now a brutal, inhuman process of bulk processing until it’s been narrowed a final few.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 08, 2018, 08:00:56 am
Actually a lot of those experiments DO just change the personal info on the CV and leave everything else unchanged. You think an HR person that receives 200-2000 applications per job opening is going to remember that they saw an otherwise identical CV? They’ll have looked at many from other people who are also essentially identical, too. And most likely, they won’t even have read the cover letters at all until making the short list.

I think there’s a lot of misconceptions about how modern HR works. It’s not nearly the touchy-feely hands-on process that maybe existed in the past. It’s now a brutal, inhuman process of bulk processing until it’s been narrowed a final few.
If the HR department gets first pass on a stack of CVs you probably won't even see the best candidates, male or female. At least in large organisations they are now so formulaic in their selection processes that anyone creative has a low chance of passing their criteria.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on August 08, 2018, 08:05:27 am
Maybe it would be worth asking a bunch of women in other areas of engineering and find out what attracted them to that area or repelled them from others?

That's an interesting idea. There are about 9 women engineers in my professional circle at work (immediate colleagues or working in the same office on other projects). I might take a quick straw poll and report back sometime in the next week or two.

Plenty might be an exaggeration.

I dare say you are right. But it's more than just a few.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 08, 2018, 08:08:06 am
When you see more detail of how most studies of this type are conducted, its usually harder to draw any conclusions. For example, as presented the study wouldn't work. If you have a pile of CVs, copy each of them, and put a male name and a female name on each pair, the people given them for review would smell a rat very quickly. They might miss a couple of times that they've seen the exact same CV before, but they won't keep missing this for very long. The description says that instead they had 127 reviewers, gave the male CVs to one half (actually 63) and the female CVs to the other half (actually 64), but these numbers are too small to draw any conclusions from the results. The mix of people in each group could have considerably skewed the results with such a modest sized pool of reviewers.

I find it interesting that they found female and male reviewers were equally biased against a CV with a woman's name on it. Really? No difference at all? That seems a truly remarkable outcome.

the study obviously *can't* send the exact same application with just the names changed to one person! but there's plenty of experiments that need to be done where we can only do the experiment once on one specific setup.. that's why they make sure the study is done across a balanced selection of subjects and CONTROL the study so that statistically the results can still make sense.

and yes the fact that it's men and women doing the discrimination equally show sexism is a social problem ingrained into our society....
If they were honest investigators why wouldn't they send half the male and half the female CVs to one group, and the rest to the other group, with them thoroughly mixed up in the pile? That would mix things up a lot more, and provide at least a basic mechanism to compare the level of similarity between the two groups of reviewers. As described the whole thing would seem weird to a reviewer. Who ever took a pile of CVs for a science or engineering position, other than in the life sciences, and found they were all female. It would clearly be a set up job if that stack were handed to you.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 08, 2018, 08:08:25 am
This is why I am firmly of the belief that the first step in any hiring process, literally before ANY applications are looked at in any way, never mind discarded, should be to completely anonymize all applications.

Employers will wait till the interview to weed out young women if they want to do so (whether for rational reasons, ie. maternity costs, or prejudice). How about reference checking and personal referrals? Do you want to create mechanisms for that to be done anonymously with penalties to ensure adherence?

Fuck that ... life's not fair, trying to bludgeon it into being so can make life more annoying as well as unfair. Balance in all things.
Obviously I wasn’t restricting my comments to just gender. But honestly, I think that jobs should be given on merit: who is best for the job. And for that, you don’t need to know the damned applicant’s sex, age, race, ethnicity, etc!!! If you have concerns about somebody leaving for maternity leave (or paternity leave, in a civilized country), then say “we are looking for someone who is going to be here without significant absences in the coming 3 years. Is that you?”

I think many good candidates, who would make it through interviews if they got the chance to interview, are weeded out by prejudiced HR people long before making it to the actual decision makers. So yes, if this means employers who don’t want people must wait until the interview stage to learn their applicant is an [insert prejudiced class here], so be it.

As for your crap about the world not being just: So just because it’s not, we shouldn’t try? BULLSHIT. It’s only “annoying” to those who benefit from the injustice. For those disadvantaged by it — and for those of us who aren’t affected but are kind enough to stand in solidarity with them — it’s damned well worth trying for.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 08, 2018, 08:10:39 am
Actually a lot of those experiments DO just change the personal info on the CV and leave everything else unchanged. You think an HR person that receives 200-2000 applications per job opening is going to remember that they saw an otherwise identical CV? They’ll have looked at many from other people who are also essentially identical, too. And most likely, they won’t even have read the cover letters at all until making the short list.

I think there’s a lot of misconceptions about how modern HR works. It’s not nearly the touchy-feely hands-on process that maybe existed in the past. It’s now a brutal, inhuman process of bulk processing until it’s been narrowed a final few.
If the HR department gets first pass on a stack of CVs you probably won't even see the best candidates, male or female. At least in large organisations they are now so formulaic in their selection processes that anyone creative has a low chance of passing their criteria.
Abso-fucking-lutely. You couldn’t be more right. My disdain for modern HR practices could hardly be larger. It’s like it’s literally designed to weed out good candidates and promote those who lie and simply cut-and-paste the keywords from the job listing.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on August 08, 2018, 08:11:13 am
If the HR department gets first pass on a stack of CVs you probably won't even see the best candidates, male or female. At least in large organisations they are now so formulaic in their selection processes that anyone creative has a low chance of passing their criteria.

Fortunately it is still possible to work in places where the HR department doesn't do the filtering. We try to find candidates by networking and direct recommendation if possible. If not, we may get resumes from an agency, but in my experience that is hard work and not highly successful.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 08, 2018, 08:29:38 am
As for your crap about the world not being just: So just because it’s not, we shouldn’t try?

Yes, sometimes you shouldn't try.

You see all these replies about people who want to work around HR, hell you seem to appreciate them even though it's hard to get farther from anonymous assessment ... your anonymised process will guarantee a regimented red tape system guaranteed to go through HR. Too much bother, too little gain.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 08, 2018, 08:33:57 am
There’s no question that it’s a bother. But no gain? Bullshit. There’s a lot to be gained a) by the people hitherto disadvantaged by the existing system, and b) by the companies, who might actually end up with better candidates.

And no, it doesn’t require an HR department. Nearly all larger companies already use software to filter resumes. It’d be trivial to have the software remove applicant personal info. (A few companies apparently already do this.)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 08, 2018, 08:46:04 am
snip

If you have concerns about somebody leaving for maternity leave (or paternity leave, in a civilized country), then say “we are looking for someone who is going to be here without significant absences in the coming 3 years. Is that you?”


that is great way to land a discrimination lawsuit and any consequences for someone lying on that question would be a guaranteed lost lawsuit

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 08, 2018, 08:47:23 am
Actually a lot of those experiments DO just change the personal info on the CV and leave everything else unchanged. You think an HR person that receives 200-2000 applications per job opening is going to remember that they saw an otherwise identical CV? They’ll have looked at many from other people who are also essentially identical, too. And most likely, they won’t even have read the cover letters at all until making the short list.

I think there’s a lot of misconceptions about how modern HR works. It’s not nearly the touchy-feely hands-on process that maybe existed in the past. It’s now a brutal, inhuman process of bulk processing until it’s been narrowed a final few.
If the HR department gets first pass on a stack of CVs you probably won't even see the best candidates, male or female. At least in large organisations they are now so formulaic in their selection processes that anyone creative has a low chance of passing their criteria.
Abso-fucking-lutely. You couldn’t be more right. My disdain for modern HR practices could hardly be larger. It’s like it’s literally designed to weed out good candidates and promote those who lie and simply cut-and-paste the keywords from the job listing.

Yep, nothing good comes from HR filtering. They aren't able to detect "the vibe".
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 08, 2018, 08:49:26 am
Abso-fucking-lutely. You couldn’t be more right. My disdain for modern HR practices could hardly be larger. It’s like it’s literally designed to weed out good candidates and promote those who lie and simply cut-and-paste the keywords from the job listing.

I wonder if companies will ever realize how utterly worthless all these automated applicant tracking systems are? They heavily favor people who are adept at gaming the system by keyword spamming their resume and embellishing their skillset. We are on the way toward having whole companies full of people who more skilled as BS artists than in the job they are hired to do.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 08, 2018, 08:57:41 am

Except that we can only work with the facts presented to us in the article linked by Dave. While the justification presented by you may be perfectly sound in a more general term (and I have seen this happen in a distant past), it was not the same argument presented by the organizer of the scolarship. At least to me, this does not change the issue at hand which is the risk of sending people less interested in place of others.

the issue is that article is ONE LITTLE THING written about a year ago, about a little scholarship that only has two positions (and some really savage other limitations around startup status and personal income) and here we have a bunch of grown men jumping up and down and screaming about just the gender aspect of it

Err, the entire point of the thing is gender. There is no other aspect.

Quote
, while doing all they can to deny any real evidence presented of real structural discrimination in favour of men.

Only that wasn't the reasoning given by the scholarship person in question.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 08, 2018, 09:04:48 am
I wonder if companies will ever realize how utterly worthless all these automated applicant tracking systems are?

No. Because there is an entire department within companies who will want to protect their jobs. And those people will never really have the skills to evaluate a resume like an experienced engineer (and the person they would be working for) would.

I actually had the opposite problem once. I made it through the hiring agency, through HR, and through two levels of engineering interviews, only to be knocked back by the company VP because I worked on stuff outside of work (the horror!), and he didn't like that one bit. He forgot to inform HR about that one. Silverbrook Research for those interested.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 08, 2018, 09:10:05 am
here we have a bunch of grown men jumping up and down and screaming about just the gender aspect of it, while doing all they can to deny any real evidence presented of real structural discrimination in favour of men.

Which real structural discrimination in favor of men are you referring to? I see overwhelming evidence of active discrimination *against* men in the hiring practices of the tech industry, and having interviewed quite a few people myself I can say with absolute certainty that women who applied were brought in for an onsite interview at a far higher percentage than men who applied. Women who were hired made up a much higher percentage of the company than the gender ratio of applicants. So precisely what discrimination are you referring to? What companies are turning down women who apply in favor of hiring less qualified men?

Where exactly are all these mythical women who want to be engineers, who have the qualifications, yet cannot seem to get hired? Believe it or not I actually like working with women, and I have worked with a few talented female engineers, but the number of women I've met in my entire life with a genuine passion for electrical or electronic engineering I can count on my fingers. If you're going to claim discrimination then I want to see some examples, because looking at the gender ratio working in a given field says absolutely nothing.

I've also asked repeatedly about female-dominated fields, and to those who think a male dominated field like engineering is a problem, female dominated fields like nursing and early education are obviously also a problem so what are/should we be doing to fix that?

Or is it all just a bunch of people looking for something to be outraged over?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 08, 2018, 09:14:26 am
I actually had the opposite problem once. I made it through the hiring agency, through HR, and through two levels of engineering interviews, only to be knocked back by the company VP because I worked on stuff outside of work (the horror!), and he didn't like that one bit. He forgot to inform HR about that one. Silverbrook Research for those interested.

Wait, what?! I'm not sure I've ever met an engineer who didn't work on stuff outside of work. I'd be highly suspicious of hiring anyone who didn't, it would suggest to me that they're only in it for the paycheck. I mean yeah, I enjoy camping, hiking, boating, and various other "normal" interests but by and large my life revolves around engineering of one sort or another and has since I was a toddler. If I didn't have a bunch of projects going on outside of work I wouldn't know what to do with myself.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 08, 2018, 09:29:46 am
that's why they make sure the study is done across a balanced selection of subjects and CONTROL the study so that statistically the results can still make sense.
How did they control for the predicted average loss of productivity and additional costs for pregnancy? What is the average cost of menstruation related productivity loss to employers and how did they control for it?

Somehow it all equals out with lets say men's greater propensity to have hobby/diy accidents, it has to, because the universe demands equality to be fact. No evidence required, no common sense allowed.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: BillB on August 08, 2018, 09:31:00 am
What is interesting about the linked PNAS study, is that the most significant factor, perceived competence, drove hire-ability and starting salary, not other factors such as like-ability.  This perceived competence factor was derived from the perspective of expert evaluators given a purposefully designed ambiguity of qualification for the position.

What are these expert evaluators, having had extensive experience in dealing with the typical applicant pool (grad students) and a lab assistant/manager workforce, using to fill in the blanks about qualification?  The study suggests subtle (subconscious) gender bias. 

What about the performance of the labs that are under the expert evaluators' control?  That is, what is the predictive validity of the methods the expert evaluators used to arrive at their conclusions?

What if this subtle gender bias produces a more effective lab workforce? 
             
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 08, 2018, 09:38:11 am
How did they control for the predicted average loss of productivity and additional costs for pregnancy? What is the average cost of menstruation related productivity loss to employers and how did they control for it?

Somehow it all equals out with lets say men's greater propensity to have hobby/diy accidents, it has to, because the universe demands equality to be fact. No evidence required, no common sense allowed.

Let's forget about pregnancy for a moment here, by and large I haven't seen that to be a big issue. The last place I worked we had a couple of women have babies around the same time and it took some effort to work around it, but there was plenty of advance warning so it wasn't the end of the world. Once they had the kid and the dust had settled they were back at work and picked up the slack. We also had a guy have a heart attack which knocked him out of work for several weeks and some time back another guy had a brain aneurism with similar effect. Personally I think men should get paternity leave as well but that's another matter. Fact is, things can come up that can require people to take extended time away from work, but that possibility has never been something I've considered when deciding whether or not to give a thumbs up on hiring them.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 08, 2018, 09:55:50 am
How did they control for the predicted average loss of productivity and additional costs for pregnancy? What is the average cost of menstruation related productivity loss to employers and how did they control for it?

Somehow it all equals out with lets say men's greater propensity to have hobby/diy accidents, it has to, because the universe demands equality to be fact. No evidence required, no common sense allowed.

Let's forget about pregnancy for a moment here, by and large I haven't seen that to be a big issue. The last place I worked we had a couple of women have babies around the same time and it took some effort to work around it, but there was plenty of advance warning so it wasn't the end of the world. Once they had the kid and the dust had settled they were back at work and picked up the slack. We also had a guy have a heart attack which knocked him out of work for several weeks and some time back another guy had a brain aneurism with similar effect. Personally I think men should get paternity leave as well but that's another matter. Fact is, things can come up that can require people to take extended time away from work, but that possibility has never been something I've considered when deciding whether or not to give a thumbs up on hiring them.

It might not me a big issue for a big company, but for a small company having to hire and bring up to speed a replacement which
you then have to get rid of when the other employee comes back and has to be brought back up to speed is an issue


Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 08, 2018, 10:17:01 am
Some (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/aug/12/managers-avoid-hiring-younger-women-maternity-leave) employers (http://time.com/4477573/maternity-leave-policy-small-businesses/) find it burdensome. Especially long leaves are bad for employers, the cost of the replacement is combined with the complete crapshoot of whether they will return. Not only because of them becoming full time homemakers, a big risk even with short leaves, but also because the long leave is an excellent opportunity to look around and job-hob. As I said before, the Swedish model which grants long leave to the father as well is a decent way to mitigate this ... by making men worse employees too.

Another way is to get out of the way and let employers and employees negotiate without government involvement, better for female employment than forcing costs on the employer.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 08, 2018, 10:27:21 am
There are ways around this that don't involve discriminating. If leave is given to both genders then that makes it fair, and time one spends out on leave now is time they can't take leave later. Taking leave does not make someone a "worse" employee, it's something that should be accounted for in the staffing and compensation. If everyone gets the same amount of leave then nobody is paid extra for time they are not available to work. There is also the option of bringing in temporary labor, this is what temp agencies exist for. It's a simple fact that circumstances come up that can require someone to take extended time off work, that's just life and it could happen to you too. In a civilized society we find ways to mitigate the effect whenever possible. For small companies there are exceptions so it is easier to replace someone who is unable to work during the times required.

For the most part this discussion is focused on larger companies though because they are most often the target of accusations of discrimination against women. When was the last time you heard anyone complaining about a tiny company with 10 employees not hiring enough women or minorities? When they're small enough for one person taking maternity leave to be a big concern then nobody cares.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 08, 2018, 10:45:26 am
For the most part this discussion is focused on larger companies though because they are most often the target of accusations of discrimination against women.

Some large companies have the same problem as government ... they try to pretend equality is some force of nature and they can just forced it down the line without thinking about the costs, which can't exist in their ideology. Then the department head looks at his budget and he starts thinking as if he's running a small company.

This article (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/6359736/Maternity-leave-the-perils-of-a-pregnant-pause.html) had a nice quote :
"Teresa, a paediatrician, has had three children “on the NHS” and is planning a fourth. “Work’s undemanding right now, so I reckon it would be a good time to get the morning sickness out of the way. After the baby I’ll take a year off and train for a triathlon.” Unsurprisingly, studies show three female doctors have to be trained to produce the same “work time output” as two men. "

Oy vey if there is a wage gap though ... we are equal don't ya know.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on August 08, 2018, 11:07:58 am
How did they control for the predicted average loss of productivity and additional costs for pregnancy? What is the average cost of menstruation related productivity loss to employers and how did they control for it?

Somehow it all equals out with lets say men's greater propensity to have hobby/diy accidents, it has to, because the universe demands equality to be fact. No evidence required, no common sense allowed.

what's that got to do with the fundamental nature of sex/gender discrimination that's highlighted in the experiment?

What's that got to do with the fact that if you present one job application to multiple hirers with only the name different you get a provable bias towards the applications with male names on:
1) recommendation as suitable for the role
2) recommended starting salary
3) indication of willingness to mentor.


Also, your repeated and continued obsession with menstruation (and the huge issue you seem to have with it as a total no-go for any woman's compatibility with a modern office routine) is kinda weird....
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 08, 2018, 11:17:32 am

What's that got to do with the fact that if you present one job application to multiple hirers with only the name different you get a provable bias towards the applications with male names on:
1) recommendation as suitable for the role
2) recommended starting salary
3) indication of willingness to mentor.


What is your source for this statement? Is this engineering jobs? Because it is exactly opposite of what I have observed, and what I have seen reported elsewhere. I have been in the tech industry for ~20 years and everything I have seen indicates that women who apply have a MUCH higher chance of being called into interview, and a significantly higher chance of being hired.

As I have stated several times, at a past job where I was part of the hiring loop, the applications we received were ~95% men, 5% women, and yet we had around 30-35% women working there, so what sort of math do I need to do in order for this to show a hiring bias against women? You have been silent on this one.

You keep making claims, yet I have seen no data to back it up, and my own experience is that it is flat out not true, at least in the American tech industry. I on the other hand have *directly seen* bias in favor of women, and discrimination in favor of women, policies deliberately put in place in attempt to force closer to a 50:50 gender ratio by literally setting the bar lower and giving preferential treatment to female applicants. Could you explain to me how this is fair, and again, how it demonstrates bias against women?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 08, 2018, 11:28:21 am
what's that got to do with the fundamental nature of sex/gender discrimination that's highlighted in the experiment?

If you don't control for it, it leaves open the possibility that the discrimination is justified.

1 The reliability in filling the position for a given length of time is part of suitability.
2 Potential productivity differences and different long term value to the department.
3 Potential differences in the long term returns of the mentoring to the department.

They aren't running a charity.
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Also, your repeated and continued obsession with menstruation (and the huge issue you seem to have with it as a total no-go for any woman't compatibility with a modern office routine) is kinda creepy.

I'm merely proving (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24015668) that there is a substantial economic cost to it, men and women on average do not have a 1:1 equal economic value to an employer just for having the same resume ... we are too different to be equal.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 08, 2018, 11:39:27 am
I'm merely proving (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24015668) that there is a substantial economic cost to it, men and women on average do not have a 1:1 equal economic value to an employer just for having the same resume ... we are too different to be equal.

I have to disagree there, and if anything your stance is lending credibility to the claims of discrimination. If someone has taken long absences from employment that will be reflected in their work history and experience, and people with less work history and experience are paid less. I don't know about in other countries but in the US maternity/paternity leave is not mandated and when it is offered, 6 weeks is typical. I see nothing to indicate that women are any less capable or productive than men, and I would certainly not make that that assumption when hiring. If someone is missing so much work that they are not getting the job done then they will generally get fired, regardless of gender. If someone wishes to take a few years off to be a stay at home mom (or dad) they will generally lose seniority and will earn less money. If someone (of either gender) decides to work part time in order to be home more to raise children, they will earn less money. In the grand scheme of things there is no inherent reason that a woman should be any less productive. There are more than enough men who are lazy and don't get the job done.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on August 08, 2018, 11:42:43 am

the issue is that article is ONE LITTLE THING written about a year ago, about a little scholarship that only has two positions (and some really savage other limitations around startup status and personal income) and here we have a bunch of grown men jumping up and down and screaming about just the gender aspect of it

Err, the entire point of the thing is gender. There is no other aspect.

the issue I have is this is one inconsequential little thing that you basically have to be working for free to even access..  and for what? $4000? a drop in the bucket compared to the costs of everything else required in a hardware startup of the type they have required applicants to be working for FREE for, before even being eligible for this

And the article is a year old... for such a tiny inconsequential thing.. yet here we have grown men (who wouldn't be in the position of accepting that scholarship even if there was no female requirement!) digging it up just to be complaining about its existence, and crying out how sexist and discriminatory it is.

If you have to dig up a year old article about a $4000 scholarship with just 2 positions in order to try and prove an argument that your own gender has it tough, then you really aren't proving your point.

meanwhile here's another article about what employment is often like for women in tech companies. this was published today. it talks about women being systemically ignored, sometimes abused, and basically hounded out of their roles. In one particular company. (now I'm waiting for a bunch of guys to chime in with "but maybe women just don't *like* working for riot games??")
https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-games-1828165483?IR=T

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, while doing all they can to deny any real evidence presented of real structural discrimination in favour of men.

Only that wasn't the reasoning given by the scholarship person in question.

my point is the scholarship is tiny, and more or less practically useless to the point of being irrelevant.

it's tiny, privately funded by what looks like one person's whim,  and has 2 positions, and most people who are not independently wealthy couldn't even have a "job" that would qualify them for the scholarship, anyway... (which gets us onto another really massive issue with modern startup culture which would need its own thread)

but look at the emotional responses about "discrimination" we get over this tiny irrelevant non-datapoint?

Can you just imagine the response in here if if the experiment I linked had shown the bias in tech against male applicant names that it shows against female names?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 08, 2018, 11:53:30 am
but look at the emotional responses about "discrimination" we get over this tiny irrelevant non-datapoint?

Can you just imagine the response in here if if the experiment I linked had shown the bias in tech against male applicant names that it shows against female names?


I think the issue is this. Would you be ok with a tiny, insignificant scholarship that was for men only? Can you honestly say that the internet would not explode over this tiny, insignificant data point?

Once again I have provided many examples of active, sanctioned discrimination against men and bias toward hiring women in the tech industry, including actual examples of affirmative action policies and once again you remain silent about this.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 08, 2018, 12:19:52 pm
I don't know about in other countries but in the US maternity/paternity leave is not mandated and when it is offered, 6 weeks is typical.
At Princeton 10 weeks paid and 12 weeks unpaid for the professional position. Which is course assuming they don't just drop out after giving birth, mothers are far more likely to drop out.
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If someone wishes to take a few years off to be a stay at home mom (or dad) they will generally lose seniority and will earn less money.
They also represent a substantial loss of investment on the part of the employer.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on August 08, 2018, 12:20:25 pm
If you don't control for it, it leaves open the possibility that the discrimination is justified.

1 The reliability in filling the position for a given length of time is part of suitability.
2 Potential productivity differences and different long term value to the department.
3 Potential differences in the long term returns of the mentoring to the department.

They aren't running a charity.

before you go to much further here you should know that the absolute best you could even get with this approach (and you're far, far far away from even that)  is an argument that current practices in regard to employment in capitalist systems are *also* discriminatory in a way that either reinforces or fits in with sex/gender discrimination.

On top of that, you will open things up for HIGHLY problematic discrimination on age, race, and plenty of other things.

On top of that, without controlling for variation inside the groups you'd like to discriminate against, the data is meaningless if it's not showing *massive* differences.

Human workers have massive variability across their productive output already. so if you can prove a 2% variation in productivity between women of east asian descent between the ages of 24-45 vs men of middle eastern descent between the ages of 204-281... well great.. but if the variation inside those populations is 100%, well, what's the point?

I can tell you there's white male engineers I know, that I'd hire to do a task even if they could only give 30% performance, they'd be better than an average white male engineer doing the work at 100% performance.. And there's white male engineers I know that I'd never hire to do a job because even at 100% performance they'd do a job that would most probably have been better if it was done by someone picked at random. And in one extreme case - better if it was just not done at all.

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Also, your repeated and continued obsession with menstruation (and the huge issue you seem to have with it as a total no-go for any woman't compatibility with a modern office routine) is kinda creepy.

I'm merely proving (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24015668) that there is a substantial economic cost to it, men and women on average do not have a 1:1 equal economic value to an employer just for having the same resume ... we are too different to be equal.

the economic conclusion of that study is problematic, without detailed description of how it goes from work days lost to productive output. In technical fields (for pretty much anything except technical process work) work hours are not fungible. that is, work done in one particular hour doesn't have the same value as work done in any other hour. I see no way in which knowledge workers could have the impact of this kind of survey mapped to impacts in actual productive output.

To actually prove your point you would need a significantly well run study to show in a CONTROLLED way, that all other aspects taken into account, a women of the same ability and background and given the same support and opportunities in the role, is going to be less productive in a role than a man. And then you'd actually have to show, through rigorous statistical analysis and other supporting studies, that this was not because of systemic bias against the woman.

Anything else is just more bias in the form of taking statistics from an existing system to use in a circular argument to try and prove the system is correct. (while willfully ignoring fields of evidence that the system is in fact performing sub optimally)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on August 08, 2018, 12:36:54 pm
I think the issue is this. Would you be ok with a tiny, insignificant scholarship that was for men only? Can you honestly say that the internet would not explode over this tiny, insignificant data point?

Once again I have provided many examples of active, sanctioned discrimination against men and bias toward hiring women in the tech industry, including actual examples of affirmative action policies and once again you remain silent about this.

Seroiusly - scholarship schmolarship. If it matters that much to you, put up a gofundme and shop it around the MRA (WFL!) groups on the net to get $8k donated to fund your own one just for guys, with the same crazy restrictions as this one. I promise I won't complain.

Now, a women only scholarship track with many positions  (full education and living expenses) through something like Harvard with lower academic entry requirements than an equivalent opportunity that included men.... that would be something to at least talk about.. does that exist? I know of sports scholarships, but their value and availability seems to favour men who play men's sports well.

Please, show concrete examples of something actually meaningful. That is,  things that would make a real world "affirmitive action" difference in the world and end up with a woman having a career as an engineer that a man would have otherwise had.

Meanwhile, here's a whole company in the tech industry, chewing up a bunch of their own actual employees with an extremely toxic culture, ripping shreds out of their careers and spitting them out (but not without relatively consistently getting them to sign a non-disparige agreement! hmmm. almost like they know exactly what they are doing, eh?) right now.....
https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-games-1828165483?IR=T
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on August 08, 2018, 12:43:25 pm
meanwhile, today in Japan:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/tokyo-university-apologises-for-rigging-marks-to-exclude-women/10086924 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/tokyo-university-apologises-for-rigging-marks-to-exclude-women/10086924)

but yes.. poor long suffereing men have it sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard in the big bad mean world ruled by evil feminismers.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 08, 2018, 01:08:01 pm
On top of that, you will open things up for HIGHLY problematic discrimination on age, race, and plenty of other things.

These are not problematic to me. I think trying to force people to overvalue employees (from their point of view) with vague hard to enforce laws does little but make lawyers happy ... and cause them to discriminate at the hardest to sue for point in time, hiring.

Let private citizens discriminate and let the market work it out, use subsidies if you think it necessary. All carrot, no stick.
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On top of that, without controlling for variation inside the groups you'd like to discriminate against, the data is meaningless if it's not showing *massive* differences.

When it's a buyer's market the differences don't have to be large for small perceived differences to cause large differences in who gets hired, especially when they can't discriminate on wages. There is very little which helps as much with discrimination as full employment.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rsjsouza on August 08, 2018, 01:17:47 pm
but look at the emotional responses about "discrimination" we get over this tiny irrelevant non-datapoint?

Can you just imagine the response in here if if the experiment I linked had shown the bias in tech against male applicant names that it shows against female names?

I guess you are the one overreacting over this and deflecting by trying to minimize the example mentioned by Dave. Look around you: what is the proportion between women/men only initiatives in engineering and sciences? If you are really honest, you will admit there is not one that targeted men or boys only. And if the marketplace in engineering and sciences is so biased against women as you say, what benefit would this bring, since they would be shunned from all opportunity in their professional life anyways? Anecdotally, I know several girls in engineering that absolutely despise such victimization stance.

To my original post, regardless of the significance of this example (or "this tiny datapoint" as you say), you fail to read the underlying message from the organizer that really seemed unfair to several candidates in this case. That is what I pointed out, not the final solution of this whole debacle.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 08, 2018, 01:47:02 pm
Seroiusly - scholarship schmolarship. If it matters that much to you, put up a gofundme and shop it around the MRA (WFL!) groups on the net to get $8k donated to fund your own one just for guys, with the same crazy restrictions as this one. I promise I won't complain.

Now, a women only scholarship track with many positions  (full education and living expenses) through something like Harvard with lower academic entry requirements than an equivalent opportunity that included men.... that would be something to at least talk about.. does that exist? I know of sports scholarships, but their value and availability seems to favour men who play men's sports well.

Please, show concrete examples of something actually meaningful. That is,  things that would make a real world "affirmitive action" difference in the world and end up with a woman having a career as an engineer that a man would have otherwise had.

Meanwhile, here's a whole company in the tech industry, chewing up a bunch of their own actual employees with an extremely toxic culture, ripping shreds out of their careers and spitting them out (but not without relatively consistently getting them to sign a non-disparige agreement! hmmm. almost like they know exactly what they are doing, eh?) right now.....
https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-games-1828165483?IR=T

I've never heard of Riot Games, can I assume you worked there and witnessed this and can attest to the fact that they had an anti-women culture? Perhaps you could inform us as to how an incident at one little game company validates claims that this is widespread throughout the entire industry? You do realize, don't you, that anti-disparagement contracts are standard procedure at nearly any company any time an employee is laid off for any reason? Normally it's part of the terms required in accepting a severance package.

Look, I don't really care about that particular scholarship, it's only one tiny example, but it's one that a few people here including you have fixated on. It's a tiny example of a much broader problem of being marginalized and told that our (mens) opinions and experiences are irrelevant. I can only speak for my own experience which is with some of the largest tech companies in the world and there is absolutely bias. The bias is not against women though, the hiring bar is lower for women and minorities, a FAR larger percentage of female applicants get onsite interviews, and a significantly larger percentage of women who are interviewed get hired. I'm no making his up, I've been directly involved. Since it has been glossed over yet again I will reiterate. We had an approximately 5% female/95% male application rate, we had approximately 30% female, 70% male ratio of employees, so where is the discrimination here? If so many women want to be engineers then why aren't they applying?

Dave posted his viewership status which showed 98% male and 2% female, again, where is the discrimination? Why aren't all these masses of women who are into engineering not watching any of these engineering related channels?

I've mentioned several examples, nursing, early childhood education, veterinary medicine which are all heavily female dominated, do you agree that this is clearly due to discrimination and warrants discriminatory affirmative action programs to equal out the gender balance in these fields? If not, why do you feel differently about these than engineering?



Anything else is just more bias in the form of taking statistics from an existing system to use in a circular argument to try and prove the system is correct. (while willfully ignoring fields of evidence that the system is in fact performing sub optimally)

Which is precisely what you have done in this thread, repeatedly. Ironic isn't it?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on August 08, 2018, 01:59:11 pm
I guess you are the one overreacting over this and deflecting by trying to minimize the example mentioned by Dave. Look around you: what is the proportion between women/men only initiatives in engineering and sciences? If you are really honest, you will admit there is not one that targeted men or boys only.

the article that's over a year old, that someone had to actually go and dredge up, just to lift up as a huge shocking example of a massive blow against man-dom.

It's so petty and ineffective, it's absolutely ridiculous.  Show the actual real world harm in that useless 2 seat "scholarship" that you have to be independently wealthy, or have a family that can afford to support you, in order to qualify for.

And please do make an equivalent for men, with the same useless constraints. I promise I won't be upset. (and I won't apply for it, cause screw not having an income)

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And if the marketplace in engineering and sciences is so biased against women as you say, what benefit would this bring, since they would be shunned from all opportunity in their professional life anyways?

aaah good old "it's so hard to fix a problem, so rather than doing the first step, let's just leave everything just as it is" - the favoured approach by the person who is benefiting from systemised oppression.

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Anecdotally, I know several girls in engineering that absolutely despise such victimization stance.

lucky for them, they never worked at riot, I guess.

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To my original post, regardless of the significance of this example (or "this tiny datapoint" as you say), you fail to read the underlying message from the organizer that really seemed unfair to several candidates in this case. That is what I pointed out, not the final solution of this whole debacle.

you are banging on about a ridiculous little nothing prize, that was published a year ago.

meanwhile here's just some stuff from right now...  seriously. get some perspective.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/tokyo-university-apologises-for-rigging-marks-to-exclude-women/10086924 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/tokyo-university-apologises-for-rigging-marks-to-exclude-women/10086924)

https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-games-1828165483?IR=T (https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-games-1828165483?IR=T)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on August 08, 2018, 02:59:18 pm
I've never heard of Riot Games, can I assume you worked there and witnessed this and can attest to the fact that they had an anti-women culture? Perhaps you could inform us as to how an incident at one little game company validates claims that this is widespread throughout the entire industry? You do realize, don't you, that anti-disparagement contracts are standard procedure at nearly any company any time an employee is laid off for any reason? Normally it's part of the terms required in accepting a severance package.

Ok, so now we are only allowing people to reference article about places they themselves have worked?? I guess dave's link to that 2 woman scholarship should go too..

and no this isn't the only example of this I have.. it's not even that good, really... this is just *today's* example.  the Uber stuff of a few years ago was  a lot more compelling. But of course I never worked there either, so what would I know?

Similarly I cannot prove that the earth is a roughly spheroidal shape, because I can't claim I have never flown to the moon or into deep space and looked back at it with my own eyes.

You want personal anecdotes, well here I have a 2nd hand one...  I have a friend who works in google, and she has experienced discrimination in day to day interactions with a man. sorry can't out her here she still works there, but she changed her work situation to avoid it. That change included a drop in responsibilities. The guy involved got to keep on doing his thing exactly as before. This was a few years ago.

As for non disparige agreements, seems to me they are getting women who *quit* to sign them, not just reduncancies or firings. that's not normal for my experience or anybody's experience I know of.

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Look, I don't really care about that particular scholarship, it's only one tiny example, but it's one that a few people here including you have fixated on.

I'm fixated on other people's infatuation with it. I wish you'd all talk about something real as an example of discrimination against men in tech. my point is the fact that so many want to bang on about it, and people are so desperate to hang onto it, then we can see there's not actually that much in the way of examples you can bring up if this is the best you have.

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It's a tiny example of a much broader problem of being marginalized and told that our (mens) opinions and experiences are irrelevant.

I must be very lucky. I never see that.

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I can only speak for my own experience which is with some of the largest tech companies in the world and there is absolutely bias. The bias is not against women though, the hiring bar is lower for women and minorities, a FAR larger percentage of female applicants get onsite interviews, and a significantly larger percentage of women who are interviewed get hired. I'm no making his up, I've been directly involved. Since it has been glossed over yet again I will reiterate. We had an approximately 5% female/95% male application rate, we had approximately 30% female, 70% male ratio of employees, so where is the discrimination here? If so many women want to be engineers then why aren't they applying?

Look, it's very possible your'e right.. in which case it'd be interesting to see the actual policies surrounding it and the business case behind it...  I don't know what companies you are even talking about, or what visibility you have in the companies through the entire structure though, because you haven't stated.

But I think you could expect that having a policy like that would keep toxic bro culture down a bit.

personal anecdote time:  I have worked in a company where the engineering team (a mix of electronic and mechanical engineers) was expected to form teams around projects, and for each project one engineer would get to be the project leader... there were three of us that got most of the leader roles due to seniority. One was a woman. I noticed at the time that she seemed to often end up with the more mundane, annoying, and generally crappy stuff to lead, while the cool "new dev" projects went to me and the other guy.


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Dave posted his viewership status which showed 98% male and 2% female, again, where is the discrimination? Why aren't all these masses of women who are into engineering not watching any of these engineering related channels?

I don't know..

it could be another good topic to discuss. Maybe it's because they can't go on tech forums without reading a bunch of some guy talking complete garbage on and on about how their menstrual cycles make them unemployable, and trying to dress it up as objective pure universal truth?

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I've mentioned several examples, nursing, early childhood education, veterinary medicine which are all heavily female dominated, do you agree that this is clearly due to discrimination and warrants discriminatory affirmative action programs to equal out the gender balance in these fields? If not, why do you feel differently about these than engineering?

why on earth would you assume I don't feel the same way here?  the reason I'm not going on about it here is this isn't what the thread is about. But YES. I agree with you it is also a big problem.. Actually it's the other side of the same issue this thread is meant to be about. I do believe that men in "pure" (non authoritative) caring roles are similarly discounted and discriminated against as women in tech roles.

more anecdote time.  I have a friend who works as an early primary school teacher. He's a guy.
he has repeatedly been threatened with physical abuse by aggressive men (always men, go figure eh) with words along the lines of "go near or touch my children and I'll kill you, faggot!" - it's actually his job to look after their children, along with many others. He has a kid of his own. He's a wonderful caring person. But people are allowed to physically threaten him in his place of work because of their own biases and nothing is ever taken to the police (if it were me in charge, any person who acted like that to any of my staff would have a restraining order with a full exclusion zone covering the school and all surrounding streets, and a criminal record, if at all possible... )

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Which is precisely what you have done in this thread, repeatedly. Ironic isn't it?

where have I done that?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on August 08, 2018, 06:22:31 pm
Fuck that ... life's not fair, trying to bludgeon it into being so can make life more annoying as well as unfair. Balance in all things.

how convenient, that we should all just ignore any and all structural inequity in society that happens to benefit you.

As I see it he is just making a correct observation, life is not fair and equality of outcome will never be.  When you talk about 'structural inequity' you make is sound like it is something that is put there in place on purpose. Personally I don't believe in such a conspiracy.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on August 08, 2018, 06:47:07 pm
I'm merely proving (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24015668) that there is a substantial economic cost to it, men and women on average do not have a 1:1 equal economic value to an employer just for having the same resume ... we are too different to be equal.

I have to disagree there, and if anything your stance is lending credibility to the claims of discrimination. If someone has taken long absences from employment that will be reflected in their work history and experience, and people with less work history and experience are paid less. I don't know about in other countries but in the US maternity/paternity leave is not mandated and when it is offered, 6 weeks is typical. I see nothing to indicate that women are any less capable or productive than men, and I would certainly not make that that assumption when hiring. If someone is missing so much work that they are not getting the job done then they will generally get fired, regardless of gender. If someone wishes to take a few years off to be a stay at home mom (or dad) they will generally lose seniority and will earn less money. If someone (of either gender) decides to work part time in order to be home more to raise children, they will earn less money. In the grand scheme of things there is no inherent reason that a woman should be any less productive. There are more than enough men who are lazy and don't get the job done.

In the Netherlands women can take leave for a minimum period of 16 weeks, starting 6 weeks before the delivery and to a minimum of 10 weeks after the delivery. Also for a period of up to nine months after delivery she will be given time of to take care of the child. These activities can take up to 25% of the paid working hours.

Men only get 2 days of, how about that being discriminatory? Ooh wait there is of course a reason for all of this. Not being treated even does not always equal discrimination but to some this nuance is lost.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on August 08, 2018, 07:38:44 pm
In the Netherlands women can take leave for a minimum period of 16 weeks, starting 6 weeks before the delivery and to a minimum of 10 weeks after the delivery. Also for a period of up to nine months after delivery she will be given time of to take care of the child. These activities can take up to 25% of the paid working hours.

Men only get 2 days of, how about that being discriminatory? Ooh wait there is of course a reason for all of this. Not being treated even does not always equal discrimination but to some this nuance is lost.

No, that isn't right at all. That sucks, and it's unfair. It should change.
I don't agree that new baby related leave should be for women only.
it should be for men too (or the female partner if the mother has one of those instead, or both the men if we are talking gay adoption, or whoever else should have it with whatever arrangements different people come up with)

And more than that - Men should actually be encouraged to take that leave. Without fear that doing so will damage their career. (just like women should) Lets have more dads actually being a proper part of their kids lives! (says the dad who missed family dinner tonight, and will be working late in the office to finish something that's currently overdue..)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: julianhigginson on August 08, 2018, 08:01:25 pm
As I see it he is just making a correct observation, life is not fair and equality of outcome will never be.  When you talk about 'structural inequity' you make is sound like it is something that is put there in place on purpose. Personally I don't believe in such a conspiracy.

I never asked for equality of outcome. I care about basic equality of opportunity.

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rsjsouza on August 08, 2018, 09:08:01 pm
I guess you are the one overreacting over this and deflecting by trying to minimize the example mentioned by Dave. Look around you: what is the proportion between women/men only initiatives in engineering and sciences? If you are really honest, you will admit there is not one that targeted men or boys only.

the article that's over a year old, that someone had to actually go and dredge up, just to lift up as a huge shocking example of a massive blow against man-dom.

It's so petty and ineffective, it's absolutely ridiculous.  Show the actual real world harm in that useless 2 seat "scholarship" that you have to be independently wealthy, or have a family that can afford to support you, in order to qualify for.
And you still refuse to look around you. Oh well... I can't help you. 

And if the marketplace in engineering and sciences is so biased against women as you say, what benefit would this bring, since they would be shunned from all opportunity in their professional life anyways?

aaah good old "it's so hard to fix a problem, so rather than doing the first step, let's just leave everything just as it is" - the favoured approach by the person who is benefiting from systemised oppression.
Again, deflecting. Read my previous post again, now with true honest eyes. Hint: my description above is a consequence of your way to thinking, not mine.

Anecdotally, I know several girls in engineering that absolutely despise such victimization stance.

lucky for them, they never worked at riot, I guess.
No, they work in corporate, academia and as full time mothers managing homes. Not in your insignificant "tiny datapoint" of a company (just because it is on the press it does not make for a widespread problem, especially in 2018).

To my original post, regardless of the significance of this example (or "this tiny datapoint" as you say), you fail to read the underlying message from the organizer that really seemed unfair to several candidates in this case. That is what I pointed out, not the final solution of this whole debacle.

you are banging on about a ridiculous little nothing prize, that was published a year ago.

meanwhile here's just some stuff from right now...  seriously. get some perspective.
Because that is what I was referring on my previous post. Context is all.

Look, I am not saying there was never bias in the workplace - as I mentioned before, I have seen cases in a very distant past and I know of places in the world where such counteracting forces are necessary. However, in western "first world" countries with the heavily PR oriented, excessive apologetic, mob influenced year of 2018, the huge advertisement of isolated cases in small companies creates the impression this is everywhere. If the situation was so widespread, the press would be advertising Caterpillar or GE instead of "Riot Games".
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: BillB on August 08, 2018, 10:05:56 pm
Anecdotally, I know several girls in engineering that absolutely despise such victimization stance.

lucky for them, they never worked at riot, I guess.
No, they work in corporate, academia and as full time mothers managing homes. Not in your insignificant "tiny datapoint" of a company (just because it is on the press it does not make for a widespread problem, especially in 2018).

To be fair, the video game industry is a 36 billion dollar industry as it seems the future of our society involves sitting on one's a$$ playing games rather than working for a living, but I digress.

The Riot story isn't unique to the industry, in fact there was an entire "thing" going on a few years ago called Gamergate.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy)

The problem I see with women tilting at this particular windmill and their fight against Toxic MasculinityTM is that these games are for the most part competitive aggression incarnate.  That's the target demographic for the games, and they want to draw from that pool for their workforce (because that's how you make successful games).  They will never be able to un-entwine how men socialize from this gaming experience.

Soon, however, the powers that be will just make  Toxic MasculinityTM illegal.  That'll fix it.  ;)

On top of that, without controlling for variation inside the groups you'd like to discriminate against, the data is meaningless if it's not showing *massive* differences.

Human workers have massive variability across their productive output already. so if you can prove a 2% variation in productivity between women of east asian descent between the ages of 24-45 vs men of middle eastern descent between the ages of 204-281... well great.. but if the variation inside those populations is 100%, well, what's the point?
       

This is fallacious, as it doesn't account for the normal probability distribution.  The average difference in height between men and women is small, with much larger in-group variance.  The same with strength.  However, they don't put WNBA players in with NBA players.  Why?  Because they would be soundly outplayed.  Hiring managers and coaches alike aren't looking for average, they are seeking the right tail of the probability distribution.  And as before, small differences in distribution create large tail effects.     
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 08, 2018, 10:15:05 pm
I never asked for equality of outcome. I care about basic equality of opportunity.

Women have the exact same opportunity as men in education and applying for jobs.
They also face all the same discrimination as men (gender being just one of a great many things people "discriminate" against).
In fact women may have even more opportunity these days as evidenced by various gender campaigns in schools and gender programs at companies.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 08, 2018, 10:23:37 pm
You want personal anecdotes, well here I have a 2nd hand one...  I have a friend who works in google, and she has experienced discrimination in day to day interactions with a man. sorry can't out her here she still works there, but she changed her work situation to avoid it. That change included a drop in responsibilities. The guy involved got to keep on doing his thing exactly as before. This was a few years ago.

Replace she with he and the sentence is still valid. People (including men) get discriminated against on a whole bunch of things, gender is just one of them. Men get discriminated against in tech companies too based on their gender.

Quote
I don't know..
it could be another good topic to discuss. Maybe it's because they can't go on tech forums without reading a bunch of some guy talking complete garbage on and on about how their menstrual cycles make them unemployable, and trying to dress it up as objective pure universal truth?

Utter rubbish.
It's ludicrous to think that a female could join this forum and will find that material (ironically, this thread). There are something like 800 new posts a day and hundreds of thousands of technical posts, the odds of a female finding anything gender related in a random thread is practically zero.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 08, 2018, 10:59:23 pm
Quote
Dave posted his viewership status which showed 98% male and 2% female, again, where is the discrimination? Why aren't all these masses of women who are into engineering not watching any of these engineering related channels?
I don't know..
it could be another good topic to discuss. Maybe it's because they can't go on tech forums without reading a bunch of some guy talking complete garbage on and on about how their menstrual cycles make them unemployable, and trying to dress it up as objective pure universal truth?

It's really easy to explain why.
Off the bat only a small percentage of engineers frequent forums or follow engineering Youtube channels.
Given that the majority of engineers are men, that leaves a smaller number of the same ratio of females to do the same thing.
Factor in that females on average have much less interest in "things" and presumably discussion of said "things" on forums or watching others talk about it on Youtube channels, and combine that with the already low percentage of female engineers compared to male engineers, and bingo, you have your few percent females who frequent forums or watch Youtube videos. If data numbers are low then females can often get rounded down to zero. e.g. if you only have a hundred subscribers, you may have zero females.

It's not rocket science, it's basic outlier statistics.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on August 08, 2018, 11:13:54 pm

And more than that - Men should actually be encouraged to take that leave. Without fear that doing so will damage their career. (just like women should) Lets have more dads actually being a proper part of their kids lives! (says the dad who missed family dinner tonight, and will be working late in the office to finish something that's currently overdue..)

I don't see the added value for giving men maternity leave, if the only object is to make things 'more fair' then it's a total waste time. The female has to physically recover and nourish the baby. The men go out to provide for the family, I didn't make that up that is how the proces of evolution has formed our species.
Even equality of opportunity is a myth between the sexes, because we come from different places to start with. This whole concept of equality is one big misconception. Embrace the difference, value each others qualities as man and female.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 08, 2018, 11:30:36 pm
meanwhile here's another article about what employment is often like for women in tech companies.
Game creation is a creative industry, the percentage of software-"engineers" isn't that high at modern game companies.

Quote
it talks about women being systemically ignored, sometimes abused, and basically hounded out of their roles. In one particular company.
Shit happens (http://www.sciedu.ca/journal/index.php/jnep/article/download/11897/7446). A company mostly filled with young single men will probably never be a welcoming environment to women, so shame them, sue them if it's actually sexual harassment and just move on if you can't stomach the environment.

It will probably never be entirely fixed, I don't see women suddenly become massively gamers ... and they want to employ gamers.  Boys will be boys.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 08, 2018, 11:36:55 pm
I don't see the added value for giving men maternity leave, if the only object is to make things 'more fair' then it's a total waste time.

It's not about fairness, it's about trying to make potential male parents have the same downsides as potential female parents. Which would remove a reason to discriminate against young women, but not against young men. If you want women to have a more equal representation/opportunity in the economy for whatever reason, it's a relatively elegant way to do so. Otherwise it's very hard to equalize the value of a men and a women to an employer, especially without allowing for wage discrimination.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on August 08, 2018, 11:57:56 pm
I don't see the added value for giving men maternity leave, if the only object is to make things 'more fair' then it's a total waste time.

It's not about fairness, it's about trying to make potential male parents have the same downsides as potential female parents. Which would remove a reason to discriminate against young women, but not against young men. If you want women to have a more equal representation/opportunity in the economy for whatever reason, it's a relatively elegant way to do so. Otherwise it's very hard to equalize the value of a men and a women to an employer, especially without allowing for wage discrimination.

Well... how about the men who are not married? How about the men and women who don't want to have kids? How are we going to cripple them so we can all be 'equal'?

This insanity isn't 'relative elegant' it's just what it is, insanity.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 09, 2018, 12:51:34 am
To actually prove your point you would need a significantly well run study to show in a CONTROLLED way, that all other aspects taken into account, a women of the same ability and background and given the same support and opportunities in the role, is going to be less productive in a role than a man. And then you'd actually have to show, through rigorous statistical analysis and other supporting studies, that this was not because of systemic bias against the woman.

Anything else is just more bias in the form of taking statistics from an existing system to use in a circular argument to try and prove the system is correct. (while willfully ignoring fields of evidence that the system is in fact performing sub optimally)
There is one kind of really interesting "natural" experiment in this: transgender people. They give us the unique opportunity to see how the exact same individual fares as both a man and a woman, as opposed to theoretical cohorts of similar people. And what transgender people report is fascinating. I highly suggest looking into it.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 09, 2018, 01:27:29 am
To actually prove your point you would need a significantly well run study to show in a CONTROLLED way, that all other aspects taken into account, a women of the same ability and background and given the same support and opportunities in the role, is going to be less productive in a role than a man. And then you'd actually have to show, through rigorous statistical analysis and other supporting studies, that this was not because of systemic bias against the woman.

Anything else is just more bias in the form of taking statistics from an existing system to use in a circular argument to try and prove the system is correct. (while willfully ignoring fields of evidence that the system is in fact performing sub optimally)
There is one kind of really interesting "natural" experiment in this: transgender people. They give us the unique opportunity to see how the exact same individual fares as both a man and a woman, as opposed to theoretical cohorts of similar people. And what transgender people report is fascinating. I highly suggest looking into it.

it maybe an illusion but to me it seems like the percentage of females that do "technical stuff" on the internet that are transgender
is much higher than are statistically transgender

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 09, 2018, 05:20:05 am
There is one kind of really interesting "natural" experiment in this: transgender people. They give us the unique opportunity to see how the exact same individual fares as both a man and a woman, as opposed to theoretical cohorts of similar people. And what transgender people report is fascinating. I highly suggest looking into it.

The problem with this is that being transgender brings its own set of discrimination, which I would wager is much greater overall than any form of gender discrimination faced by traditional male and female genders.

There is a really simple experiment that one could do though, apply for the same job at numerous tech companies with two resumes that have virtually identical qualifications but with different but roughly equivalent work history. One with a female name and another with a male name, and I bet the one with a female name gets contacted to schedule an interview more often than the one with a male name by at least 10:1.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 09, 2018, 06:04:03 am
You want personal anecdotes, well here I have a 2nd hand one...  I have a friend who works in google, and she has experienced discrimination in day to day interactions with a man. sorry can't out her here she still works there, but she changed her work situation to avoid it. That change included a drop in responsibilities. The guy involved got to keep on doing his thing exactly as before. This was a few years ago.


She got hired, didn't she? Did she report the discrimination to HR? Did that fail and then she changed her work situation? Sounds like a crappy situation, but I know a few guys who have been discriminated against on one basis or another, reported it to HR, nothing happened, had to transfer to another group or department. Is that relevant or does it only count if it happens to women?


As for non disparige agreements, seems to me they are getting women who *quit* to sign them, not just reduncancies or firings. that's not normal for my experience or anybody's experience I know of.

Did men who quit not have to sign one? I've had to sign them before, once when I was laid off and another time when I voluntarily quit. If it turns out that women had to sign those agreements and men did not then we have a valid issue. Personally I think these agreements are a crock and I don't know if they'd be likely to hold up in court but they certainly are not uncommon, at least in the USA.



I'm fixated on other people's infatuation with it. I wish you'd all talk about something real as an example of discrimination against men in tech. my point is the fact that so many want to bang on about it, and people are so desperate to hang onto it, then we can see there's not actually that much in the way of examples you can bring up if this is the best you have.

I have talked about multiple "real somethings", multiple times, which you have ignored each of those times. I'll fixate on just one here just for sake of example. At one of my employers we had 5% female applicants and over 30% female employees. Female applicants were so rare that we contacted almost 100% of them for a phone screen and of those invited a very large percentage in for an onsite interview.

So my question here is this. If a company receives applications with a ratio of 5% female, 95% male, then what is an acceptable gender ratio for hired employees? Just toss out some ballpark numbers that you would hear and be satisfied that the company is not discriminating against hiring women.


I must be very lucky. I never see that.

You've done it, right in this thread. Not in those exact words but the message was clear. Need I take the time to dig through the thread and find it?


Look, it's very possible your'e right.. in which case it'd be interesting to see the actual policies surrounding it and the business case behind it...  I don't know what companies you are even talking about, or what visibility you have in the companies through the entire structure though, because you haven't stated.

I'm not going to name the companies specifically, but if you do a search for the top 20 tech companies in the greater Seattle area of Washington state, USA you will find them all on that list. The business case is that diversity is a hot topic right now and all of these companies have faced accusations of not hiring enough women or minorities. In at least one case (into which I have visiblity) that has led to a policy where manager compensation bonuses are tied to diversity, which has led to a policy that to fill an open position a manager is required to interview a "diversity candidate" if one can be found, if they are even possibly the slightest bit qualified. If a "diversity candidate" (code for anyone who is not a white male) is even close to equally qualified as a white male applicant, the diversity candidate is the one who will get hired. Again this happens because financial bonuses are directly tied to team diversity, meaning it is in a manager's better interest to hire a diversity candidate that can sort of do the job over someone else who may be much better qualified. Now some superbly qualified people also happen to qualify as diversity candidates, but in those cases they should be hired based on their qualifications, not their race or gender.


personal anecdote time:  I have worked in a company where the engineering team (a mix of electronic and mechanical engineers) was expected to form teams around projects, and for each project one engineer would get to be the project leader... there were three of us that got most of the leader roles due to seniority. One was a woman. I noticed at the time that she seemed to often end up with the more mundane, annoying, and generally crappy stuff to lead, while the cool "new dev" projects went to me and the other guy.

That could be a legitimate case of discrimination, but there is not enough data here to say for certain. Was she similarly qualified to the men? Was her past work performance comparable? As Dave has mentioned a few times, there are lots of things people are discriminated on, men who are shorter, fatter or bald tend to earn less money, receive fewer promotions and work on less prestigious projects. It could be that she was discriminated against based on her gender, or it could be she was unpleasant to work with, or unattractive, or a lower performer, all things that both genders face discrimination for. It's something worth looking into, but not an automatic indication of unfair discrimination.

I don't know..

it could be another good topic to discuss. Maybe it's because they can't go on tech forums without reading a bunch of some guy talking complete garbage on and on about how their menstrual cycles make them unemployable, and trying to dress it up as objective pure universal truth?

What do forums have to do with watching YouTube videos? Anyone can watch his videos without participating in a forum. Is Dave himself unappealing to women? Beats me, I'm not a good judge of male appeal but he seems to present himself in a friendly and approachable way, doesn't act like a jerk, doesn't rip on women, doesn't rant about politics, etc. Maybe his videos would have a larger female audience if the topic was different?

What about female hosted engineering related channels? There aren't many but there are a few, does anyone have statistics regarding following of notable ones like Jerri Ellesworth or Fran something or other? Both are examples of talented female engineers, I suspect their followers are overwhelmingly men too but I have no data here.

As for forums, what is the obstacle here? Nobody has to share their gender, nobody even has to use their real name. Nothing is stopping a woman from participating in the forum under a male or ambiguous name, and general discussion of gender and political issues is tightly controlled to specific context. The vast, and I mean VAST majority of threads on eevblog have absolutely no mention of gender. Absolutely anyone is welcome to participate.



why on earth would you assume I don't feel the same way here?  the reason I'm not going on about it here is this isn't what the thread is about. But YES. I agree with you it is also a big problem.. Actually it's the other side of the same issue this thread is meant to be about. I do believe that men in "pure" (non authoritative) caring roles are similarly discounted and discriminated against as women in tech roles.

Why is it a problem? I'm not interested in nursing, or veterinary medicine, nor do I want to be a preschool teacher, and I don't know very many men who are. What's wrong with this? Nobody is blocking me from going into any of those fields, in some like nursing I could probably have a great advantage in the hiring process due to the novelty of a male nurse, but I don't want to do that. Why should anyone try to coerce or entice me to pursue a career path that does not interest me? Why should I get an easier path than a similarly qualified woman in order to fill some equality quota? If I wanted to pursue it I would pursue it, I don't see any discrimination going on here.

If someone were to give a list of male names and female names and ask them to be rated against traits like compassion, care, nurturing, etc I would expect that the female names would rank far higher her, but I'm betting this is due to association since certain careers are female dominated, not by any actual belief that a man is incapable of possessing these traits. I'm just not bothered by this. Men *on average* have different interests, that doesn't mean we are not allowed to pursue traditionally female interests or that a given individual is any less capable due to their gender.


more anecdote time.  I have a friend who works as an early primary school teacher. He's a guy.
he has repeatedly been threatened with physical abuse by aggressive men (always men, go figure eh) with words along the lines of "go near or touch my children and I'll kill you, faggot!" - it's actually his job to look after their children, along with many others. He has a kid of his own. He's a wonderful caring person. But people are allowed to physically threaten him in his place of work because of their own biases and nothing is ever taken to the police (if it were me in charge, any person who acted like that to any of my staff would have a restraining order with a full exclusion zone covering the school and all surrounding streets, and a criminal record, if at all possible... )

Well men have testosterone which is a hormone that promotes aggression, it's a biological trait that men are more likely to be aggressive and physically abusive. It's not the most flattering male trait but biology is not fair and it doesn't mean that all men have to be jerks. If you look though at a large enough sample you're virtually guaranteed to find many more violent or aggressive men than women. This particular case sounds like a big problem with members of the general public being pricks, but it isn't an example of workplace or hiring discrimination. If anything it serves as an example that we ALL face discrimination at one time or another regardless of gender or profession. Discrimination is not exclusively against women, or exclusively from a particular industry, and I quite firmly believe that the solution to this is not more discrimination.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: KL27x on August 09, 2018, 10:41:29 am
Quote
It seems like there's some racial prejustice going on here.
Yep. Welcome to life.

Quote
And what do you mean by Asian men? Asia is a huge continent, with several different human races and many more cultures and religions.
And somehow we can reduce them all to one checkmark labeled Asian/Pacific Islander. This checkmark results in the opposite of affirmative action, with non-Hispanic white in the middle. In essence, Asian/Pacific Islanders are more white than white people. :)

Don't forget this when you assume the alternative to the current agenda was ever some color and gender blind utopian meritocracy. It never was and never will be.

What's the difference adding gender? Well, the end result will probably end up with more asian females who count towards 2 quotas.. and white men will somehow not be affected too much.  :-//

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on August 09, 2018, 06:05:07 pm
To actually prove your point you would need a significantly well run study to show in a CONTROLLED way, that all other aspects taken into account, a women of the same ability and background and given the same support and opportunities in the role, is going to be less productive in a role than a man. And then you'd actually have to show, through rigorous statistical analysis and other supporting studies, that this was not because of systemic bias against the woman.

Anything else is just more bias in the form of taking statistics from an existing system to use in a circular argument to try and prove the system is correct. (while willfully ignoring fields of evidence that the system is in fact performing sub optimally)
There is one kind of really interesting "natural" experiment in this: transgender people. They give us the unique opportunity to see how the exact same individual fares as both a man and a woman, as opposed to theoretical cohorts of similar people. And what transgender people report is fascinating. I highly suggest looking into it.

Transgender people are either man of female, wanting to change your sex doesn't magically change your physiology. So I really don't get how you can claim that the 'exact same' individual fares as both a man and a woman. A man who wants to go through life as a female is still biologically a male and vice versa. Did it ever occur to you that the differences between males and females are biological in nature? Ever tried mating two male connectors? Now lets call one of those male connectors female, will they now mate well?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 09, 2018, 08:40:42 pm
I just found this:
https://www.raeng.org.uk/policy/diversity-in-engineering/diversity-and-inclusion-toolkit/documents/increasing-diversity-and-inclusion-in-engineering (https://www.raeng.org.uk/policy/diversity-in-engineering/diversity-and-inclusion-toolkit/documents/increasing-diversity-and-inclusion-in-engineering)

Looks at the list of people who helped out, a long list of "head of diversity" type people. It's so common to see these days, people employed full time at companies and universities to make sure "diversity" happens.
I recall one university (perhaps one of the ones in trouble about SJW stuff recently) that had dozens of people employed full time (one or more for every department) to lead their diversity agenda.

Royal Academy of Engineering have at least 3 full time people devoted to "diversity" it seems according to that list.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 09, 2018, 08:48:02 pm
And the 2015 survey report, I haven't read it:
https://www.raeng.org.uk/policy/diversity-in-engineering/diversity-and-inclusion-toolkit/documents/diversity-and-inclusion-in-engineering-survey-repo (https://www.raeng.org.uk/policy/diversity-in-engineering/diversity-and-inclusion-toolkit/documents/diversity-and-inclusion-in-engineering-survey-repo)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 09, 2018, 08:51:39 pm
Surprise surprise at #1

(https://i.imgur.com/XK6vS7z.png)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 09, 2018, 08:56:22 pm
I just found this:
https://www.raeng.org.uk/policy/diversity-in-engineering/diversity-and-inclusion-toolkit/documents/increasing-diversity-and-inclusion-in-engineering (https://www.raeng.org.uk/policy/diversity-in-engineering/diversity-and-inclusion-toolkit/documents/increasing-diversity-and-inclusion-in-engineering)

Looks at the list of people who helped out, a long list of "head of diversity" type people. It's so common to see these days, people employed full time at companies and universities to make sure "diversity" happens.
I recall one university (perhaps one of the ones in trouble about SJW stuff recently) that had dozens of people employed full time (one or more for every department) to lead their diversity agenda.

Royal Academy of Engineering have at least 3 full time people devoted to "diversity" it seems according to that list.

and then it becomes self feeding, those in the business of increasing diversity is going to find there is a need to increase diversity, their jobs depend on it

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 09, 2018, 09:06:10 pm
I don't know..

it could be another good topic to discuss. Maybe it's because they can't go on tech forums without reading a bunch of some guy talking complete garbage on and on about how their menstrual cycles make them unemployable, and trying to dress it up as objective pure universal truth?

What do forums have to do with watching YouTube videos? Anyone can watch his videos without participating in a forum. Is Dave himself unappealing to women? Beats me, I'm not a good judge of male appeal but he seems to present himself in a friendly and approachable way, doesn't act like a jerk, doesn't rip on women, doesn't rant about politics, etc. Maybe his videos would have a larger female audience if the topic was different?

What about female hosted engineering related channels? There aren't many but there are a few, does anyone have statistics regarding following of notable ones like Jerri Ellesworth or Fran something or other? Both are examples of talented female engineers, I suspect their followers are overwhelmingly men too but I have no data here.

I believe Jeri and Fran have similar numbers to me, and Scanlime (Micah Scott, who incidentally is extremely pro-gender equality etc) tweeted about lower numbers than mine (sub 1% IIRC), I think it's in this thread somewhere back. I don't know of any electronics channel with any significantly larger number than mine. The number (sub 5%) seems generic in the engineering Youtube space, although it would be interesting to know about channels like Real Engineering etc with potentially broader appeal, but that one is still very much "things" based, so I'd expect the number to be similar.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on August 09, 2018, 09:51:37 pm
and then it becomes self feeding, those in the business of increasing diversity is going to find there is a need to increase diversity, their jobs depend on it

Surely not?!

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20110713006204/en/Forbes-Insights-Study-Identifies-Strong-Link-Diverse (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20110713006204/en/Forbes-Insights-Study-Identifies-Strong-Link-Diverse)

Quote
“Fostering Innovation Through a Diverse Workforce” is based on an exclusive survey of 321 executives at large global enterprises ($500 million-plus in annual revenues). All respondents had direct responsibility or oversight for their companies’ diversity and inclusion programs.

According to the survey, a diverse and inclusive workforce is necessary to drive innovation and promote creativity—85% of respondents agreed

Well, of course they did! This is pretty much the definition of self serving. I’m amazed it was only 85%.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 09, 2018, 10:05:23 pm
According to the survey, a diverse and inclusive workforce is necessary to drive innovation and promote creativity—85% of respondents agreed

Well, of course they did! This is pretty much the definition of self serving. I’m amazed it was only 85%.

It's like saying only 85% of quality managers think that quality systems help make a better product  :o
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 09, 2018, 10:24:34 pm
According to the survey, a diverse and inclusive workforce is necessary to drive innovation and promote creativity—85% of respondents agreed

Well, of course they did! This is pretty much the definition of self serving. I’m amazed it was only 85%.

It's like saying only 85% of quality managers think that quality systems help make a better product  :o
and the other 15% are close to retirement.  :)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2018, 12:38:34 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHWauNxu5TU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHWauNxu5TU)

Are female STEM Youtubers thriving or surviving?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on August 10, 2018, 12:57:54 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHWauNxu5TU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHWauNxu5TU)

Are female STEM Youtubers thriving or surviving?

I watched the video and one thing I noticed that these women seem to like to talk about science and engineering but not doing any themselves. Kimberly makes me fall asleep with her voice, it's just exhausting to listen to.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on August 10, 2018, 01:31:37 am
Are female STEM Youtubers thriving or surviving?

I am trying to work out what negative difference it makes if they're female? Or is that the point?  :-//

I'd have thought a pleasing-on-the-eye female presenter is going to have quite a head start over your average bloke in this genre.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 10, 2018, 02:01:14 am
I am trying to work out what negative difference it makes if they're female? Or is that the point?  :-//

I'd have thought a pleasing-on-the-eye female presenter is going to have quite a head start over your average bloke in this genre.

To some degree it probably does, at least initially. For me though it's all about the content, an attractive female presenter may draw me in briefly but if the content is lacking then I'll soon leave. If I just want to look at attractive women there are lots of sources for such visual material. It seems to be common these days to use women as a gimmick in various shows and movies and it tends to be painfully obvious.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 10, 2018, 02:08:23 am
I just found this:
https://www.raeng.org.uk/policy/diversity-in-engineering/diversity-and-inclusion-toolkit/documents/increasing-diversity-and-inclusion-in-engineering (https://www.raeng.org.uk/policy/diversity-in-engineering/diversity-and-inclusion-toolkit/documents/increasing-diversity-and-inclusion-in-engineering)

Looks at the list of people who helped out, a long list of "head of diversity" type people. It's so common to see these days, people employed full time at companies and universities to make sure "diversity" happens.
I recall one university (perhaps one of the ones in trouble about SJW stuff recently) that had dozens of people employed full time (one or more for every department) to lead their diversity agenda.

Royal Academy of Engineering have at least 3 full time people devoted to "diversity" it seems according to that list.


I saw a job posting recently for a technical position at a college and was surprised to see this:

"Attach a Diversity Statement that provides specific examples of how your educational and/or professional experiences, background, or philosophy demonstrate your commitment to diversity and equity, and how these prepare you to contribute to ***** (max 1 page)"

What is one even supposed to say for that? Specific examples? Most of us have worked with a diverse range of people, and treat our colleagues equally but to write a statement of examples? I'm betting that was added by one of those fulltime "diversity" people in need of justifying their own job. The problem with having positions like that is that they have to continue justifying themselves so no accomplishment is ever enough. If an organization does achieve the stated goal then the goalpost will immediately move.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: reboots on August 10, 2018, 02:30:40 am
I don't know..
it could be another good topic to discuss. Maybe it's because they can't go on tech forums without reading a bunch of some guy talking complete garbage on and on about how their menstrual cycles make them unemployable, and trying to dress it up as objective pure universal truth?

Utter rubbish.
It's ludicrous to think that a female could join this forum and will find that material (ironically, this thread). There are something like 800 new posts a day and hundreds of thousands of technical posts, the odds of a female finding anything gender related in a random thread is practically zero.

Dave, small counterpoint: this thread has remained at or near the top of the General Chat forum for several days. It's the first topic I see when I select 'Show unread posts since last visit'; it's the first thing any visitor to the site, casual or experienced, might be expected to encounter. For better or for worse, this controversial topic does presently characterize EEVblog.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on August 10, 2018, 02:50:35 am
I am trying to work out what negative difference it makes if they're female? Or is that the point?  :-//

I'd have thought a pleasing-on-the-eye female presenter is going to have quite a head start over your average bloke in this genre.

To some degree it probably does, at least initially. For me though it's all about the content, an attractive female presenter may draw me in briefly but if the content is lacking then I'll soon leave. If I just want to look at attractive women there are lots of sources for such visual material. It seems to be common these days to use women as a gimmick in various shows and movies and it tends to be painfully obvious.

I agree, but I'm not sure those presented in the video are really a "gimmick", as far as I can tell they are successful in STEM on their own merits.

The only one of those presenters that I've watched before is Ines Dawson of Draw Curiosity, who's a PhD (technically DPhil, same thing) research student at Oxford University, although increasingly she seems to be favouring being a science communicator over her biomechanical insect research. Many of the videos she does have nothing to do with her sphere of expertise, but pretty much all popular science Youtubers do that, male or female. VSauce, for example, has no formal tertiary science education as far as I am aware.

What I would say is that anyone with a formal tertiary science or engineering education is going to be far more rigorous (careful, that's hate speech to science educators!!!) than some of the click bait dross you see.

While I'd like to see more detailed and specialised content, truth is that's going to have a pretty limited audience, and if being a science communicator is your income, you're going to do content that gets viewers.

Physics Girl is an example of this, she has nearly 1.1M subscribers, but her content has become more and more popsci. That may be because she's part of PBS now. I generally find her content interesting, but increasingly entertainment rather than educational. As an exception, I found the video with her and Susan Wojcicki to be a fist full of patronising politically correct clap trap: it's not hard to figure out who was "directing" that video.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on August 10, 2018, 02:57:51 am
I saw a job posting recently for a technical position at a college and was surprised to see this:

"Attach a Diversity Statement that provides specific examples of how your educational and/or professional experiences, background, or philosophy demonstrate your commitment to diversity and equity, and how these prepare you to contribute to ***** (max 1 page)"


Well that's one way of increasing your "diversity and inclusivity" KPIs: it's hardly encouraging all those angry white men to apply.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 10, 2018, 03:09:49 am
I saw a job posting recently for a technical position at a college and was surprised to see this:

"Attach a Diversity Statement that provides specific examples of how your educational and/or professional experiences, background, or philosophy demonstrate your commitment to diversity and equity, and how these prepare you to contribute to ***** (max 1 page)"


Well that's one way of increasing your "diversity and inclusivity" KPIs: it's hardly encouraging all those angry white men to apply.
Well, I could say that I spent more than half my working life helping to develop engineering talent in Asia, but I guess for many readers those Asian engineers now have a higher "oppression" ranking than blonde blue eyed me.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 10, 2018, 05:25:14 am
I agree, but I'm not sure those presented in the video are really a "gimmick", as far as I can tell they are successful in STEM on their own merits.

I should clarify that I wasn't referring to the specific video referenced here, I didn't watch it so I can't comment on the content.

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: NiHaoMike on August 10, 2018, 03:04:27 pm
If I just want to look at attractive women there are lots of sources for such visual material.
And the fact that beautiful women are not particularly hard to find means many of them on TV have to differentiate themselves in some other way. Some participate in sports, some play video games, some make music, and of course, some work on technology. I don't find videos of pretty girls particularly interesting unless they're doing something interesting, usually having to do with technology. There's a saying that while any girl can show off her outer beauty on camera, inner beauty can only be shown through actions.

BTW, I think Fran Blanche is a good role model in that she has been in the electronics hobby for longer than many of us have been alive. She's a good counterargument for those who claim to be too old to have a hobby involving technology.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 10, 2018, 03:09:26 pm
Yeah I like Fran, I'm not a regular viewer but I've watched several particularly interesting videos. She reminds me a bit of someone I worked with a while back.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2018, 03:28:25 pm
Are female STEM Youtubers thriving or surviving?
I am trying to work out what negative difference it makes if they're female? Or is that the point?  :-//

Female Youtubers always argue that they cop endless online abuse, and of course they do, but so do the male Youtubers, to the same extent or more (on average), it comes with the territory.
Trying to argue that they have it worse somehow seems rather silly to me.

Quote
I'd have thought a pleasing-on-the-eye female presenter is going to have quite a head start over your average bloke in this genre.

You would think so, but I have never seen any evidence that is really the case. It always seems to come down to the likability of the individual
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 10, 2018, 03:30:56 pm
I saw a job posting recently for a technical position at a college and was surprised to see this:

"Attach a Diversity Statement that provides specific examples of how your educational and/or professional experiences, background, or philosophy demonstrate your commitment to diversity and equity, and how these prepare you to contribute to ***** (max 1 page)"

What is one even supposed to say for that?

You don't, you run away as fast as you can.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 10, 2018, 03:42:16 pm
Female Youtubers always argue that they cop endless online abuse, and of course they do, but so do the male Youtubers, to the same extent or more (on average), it comes with the territory.
Trying to argue that they have it worse somehow seems rather silly to me.

I could buy that they get more of certain types of abuse, such as pervy guys making rude/suggestive comments, but overall I'd be skeptical of the total amount of abuse being appreciably higher. For some reason YouTube has always seemed to attract a lot of really dumb commenters, a friend of mine years ago  coined the term "YouBoob" for the idiots who comment on YouTube videos.


You would think so, but I have never seen any evidence that is really the case. It always seems to come down to the likability of the individual

It will usually turn my head, a bit like a catchy headline, but if there's no substance behind it then my attention evaporates quickly. I'd much rather listen to someone who is hideously ugly and has something interesting to share than someone who is unusually attractive but spewing a bunch of hot air.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 10, 2018, 10:53:02 pm
The people sending abuse to youtubers are outliers, trying to affect them with social propaganda is exceedingly difficult. The low hanging fruit of social change to improve male attitudes in western society is long behind us. It seems to me that feminism has actually created more angry white guys the last decade compared to the time before, not just facing diminishing returns but inversion. It doesn't seem to me to be because of lack of diversity initiatives.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 11, 2018, 03:40:30 am
The people sending abuse to youtubers are outliers, trying to affect them with social propaganda is exceedingly difficult. The low hanging fruit of social change to improve male attitudes in western society is long behind us. It seems to me that feminism has actually created more angry white guys the last decade compared to the time before, not just facing diminishing returns but inversion. It doesn't seem to me to be because of lack of diversity initiatives.
When a movement starts to reach its key goals it rarely disbands, job well done. It more often keeps on going, with its fresh demands looking less and less rational.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: blackfin76 on August 11, 2018, 04:34:43 am
The people sending abuse to youtubers are outliers, trying to affect them with social propaganda is exceedingly difficult. The low hanging fruit of social change to improve male attitudes in western society is long behind us. It seems to me that feminism has actually created more angry white guys the last decade compared to the time before, not just facing diminishing returns but inversion. It doesn't seem to me to be because of lack of diversity initiatives.

One thing about feminism is that it always seem to lay the focus on stuff like the 'glass ceiling', the wage gap, toxic masculinity and sexual intimidation. You never hear feminist talk about the 'glass cellar', lack of ambition, seeing every aspect of life throught the female perspective or the fact that women do like male attention but only from those the want attention from (fifty shades of gray???).

Hypocrisy is not a male only attribute, it runs in even amounts among the male and female parts of the population.

 
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 11, 2018, 04:45:44 am
When a movement starts to reach its key goals it rarely disbands, job well done. It more often keeps on going, with its fresh demands looking less and less rational.

Going off topic but that is indeed a big problem with virtually any movement, the moment it reaches the stated goal, the goalpost moves. If there is a paycheck in it then the people involved will do anything they can in order to preserve their jobs, hard to blame them really, we all want to preserve our jobs. Even when it's a volunteer only thing once someone develops a real passion toward some cause it's very difficult for them to ever put it down and call it done, they will always see room for a next step.

The same is true for "temporary" taxes and levies to fund various things. It sounds good in concept, but in practice I struggle to think of a single one that actually expired and wasn't immediately renewed or replaced. Likewise tolls for roads and bridges that were "just to pay for the construction" then once it's paid off they're used to having this nice easy revenue stream and keep it around indefinitely.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: RoGeorge on August 12, 2018, 01:48:19 pm
Allowing bots to edit wikipedia should be forbidden:
https://techxplore.com/news/2018-08-machine-tool-quicksilver-overlooked-females.html  :--
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 18, 2018, 12:36:10 pm
I always find it amusing how men talk about women and the things they want, desire and what drives them. Some men are close but many are far off the mark. They try to describe a totally illogical drive using logic. My whole life I never really understood women; in many ways I was girly but really thought like a man. That all changed on my fourth day of being on estrogen. All of a sudden I understood it 100%. The drive is a "touchy feely" type desire rather then a testosterone fueled competitive result. Even now I struggle to explain it.

I will now buy something with no real use just because I think it's cute. Or I might buy a car just because I really like the color above all other things.

Jonah Lehrer wrote a book called How we decide in the book he uses neuro science to break down every decision; even the most logical Asperger's Vulcan prime directive Borg like cold decision is driven by pure emotions. (Three star trek references in one sentence!)

https://www.amazon.com/How-We-Decide-Jonah-Lehrer/dp/0547247990 (https://www.amazon.com/How-We-Decide-Jonah-Lehrer/dp/0547247990)


But in all reality how often have you actually been affected by gender politics at your work or even seen it? The closest I have ever come have been those strange videos you watch on your second day of a new company where they try to "train" you on how not to create a sexual harassment law suit. For me it's just a "video games are sexist because you can't see batman's butt" issue. For the record you could totally see his butt; it's shinny black and round. If you ask me Anika Sarkasian's husband shouldn't hit her so hard; it's making her eye sight bad. Plus I can't believe her husband lets her use his internet for such things while he's hard at work making the money to pay for it and that's time she could be cleaning or making him dinner. That's what I would be doing. I was in full support of the 19th amendment until I saw that video.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: NiHaoMike on August 19, 2018, 07:10:33 am
Sarah Petkus seems to be really emotional about her robot project, even describing it as like a child.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on August 19, 2018, 06:43:40 pm
Sorry but you transgenders aren't women and you should not speak on their behalf.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: KL27x on August 19, 2018, 07:34:17 pm
^There's no need for that. Why? Do you think you're gaining points from the 2 other women on the forum?

There are plenty of men, here, speaking on behalf of women, and no one has an issue with that.
Beamin has a unique perspective, and we are lucky that she shares it with us.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 19, 2018, 08:20:49 pm
Sorry but you transgenders aren't women and you should not speak on their behalf.
I think you need to sit back down, shut up, and learn to listen. And learn more about the topic before chiming in with rudely worded and factually ignorant comments.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 19, 2018, 11:20:00 pm
^There's no need for that. Why? Do you think you're gaining points from the 2 other women on the forum?

There are plenty of men, here, speaking on behalf of women, and no one has an issue with that.
Beamin has a unique perspective, and we are lucky that she shares it with us.

I agree, but at the same time if you were to do a scientific study of something male vs. female I'd imagine
trans people would be excluded from the study as to not add potential statistical outliers 
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rsjsouza on August 19, 2018, 11:44:13 pm
People are so different; nobody has the authority to speak for an entire gender/ethnicity/other group - one can only speak for his own self and maybe a small part of people of close acquaintance (the so called anecdotal evidence). This is valid in all scenarios, not the ones one chooses to be aligned with.

IMO GeorgeOfTheJungle's comment in question is accurate, but it sounds rude. Beamin's comment also has some generalizations (e.g. men buy things out of curiosity or futile motives too), has cheap punches on Sarkeesian and the posed question could be read as dismissive of other's past experiences mentioned here.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 20, 2018, 03:28:09 am
The hormones are an interesting topic, I mean there is no doubt they have a profound effect on the mind and body, it is not disputed that high levels of testosterone trigger elevated aggression and other effects. It's entirely possible that different hormones are largely responsible for the differing personality traits in otherwise identical brain structures. Unfortunately the hormones also have significant physical effects on the body so it isn't really practical to experiment with them.

I still struggle to understand they the concept of being different is offensive to some. Different doesn't mean worse or better, or differently valued. A world where everyone is faceless, genderless, and a member of a single homogenous culture and all the same interests sounds extremely boring to me.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on August 20, 2018, 04:27:42 am
factually ignorant comments.

What do you mean with factually ignorant? Elaborate please.

I can't imagine a real woman in an electronics forum would go posting pictures of her feet's pink nails as these trans do. No, thats not something women like to do.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 20, 2018, 04:54:40 am
Sorry but you transgenders aren't women and you should not speak on their behalf.

This forum has so many bright people on it it's like a corner of the internet not polluted by all the ignorance that is going around on the internet right now. Then we have your post. How the fuck do you know what "we transgenders" think? Really bright people like Fran of frans lab and countless others on this forum would disagree along with the "cis"women we have here. You have just outed yourself as a narrowminded homophobic insecure little man. Maybe you would feel more comfortable or at least less threatened in the comment section of the altright forums or alex jones channel.

 I'm more of a woman then you will ever be as a man.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on August 20, 2018, 05:12:57 am
Labels, name calling, and all that, won't change a bit the truth, whether you like it or not: you're something else, not a woman. What problem do you have with that?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 20, 2018, 05:25:07 am
Labels, name calling, and all that, won't change a bit the truth, whether you like it or not: you're something else, not a woman. What problem do you have with that?


I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is bigots that say ignorant offensive things with blatant disregard for others. You sound like homophobic white trash. Hold yourself to higher standard rather then just blurting the first thing that comes out of your mouth. That's so ignorant to say in 2018. Heres a tip next time you see a trans person do yourself a favor and shut the fuck up. What problem do you have with that?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 20, 2018, 06:15:08 am
Labels, name calling, and all that, won't change a bit the truth, whether you like it or not: you're something else, not a woman. What problem do you have with that?


I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is bigots that say ignorant offensive things with blatant disregard for others. You sound like homophobic white trash. Hold yourself to higher standard rather then just blurting the first thing that comes out of your mouth. That's so ignorant to say in 2018. Heres a tip next time you see a trans person do yourself a favor and shut the fuck up. What problem do you have with that?

I thought the ideas was that you couldn't see if someone was trans unless told so?

while he might be unnecessarily blunt about it, there is no denying that transitioning does not remove the effects
of being soaked in testosterone for parts of life, male to female transitioned athletes are in a different league when
they compete with born females

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: KL27x on August 20, 2018, 07:47:52 am
Quote
I thought the ideas was that you couldn't see if someone was trans unless told so?
So go back to the last page. Why do you or George feel necessary to comment the way you do?

You can easily remove Beamin's comments from your statistical analysis of the thread when you write your doctoral thesis, if that is how you choose to see things. Because she chose to disclose that information.

This being the internet, you can't see any gender unless given that information. I assume everyone here is male, unless otherwise indicated, and I bet everyone else does, too. If login name is the only indication, I am aware of only 2 other members as being presumably female (I am surely missing some from other countries where I am not familiar with boy/girl names). If they post here, maybe you can ask them to submit to a DNA test. You wouldn't want someone living life and presenting as a female to have an unfair advantage in an internet thread due to past testosterone and bone structure, now would you?

Beamin is an individual; you cannot make an individual a representative of an entire group, anymore than George or you can speak for all men.

The irony is that if a genetic female member does not agree with Beamin "speaking for them," I believe women have a voice and opinion of their own. Yet you, as a man, find it necessary to speak for them.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 20, 2018, 08:31:11 am
Quote
I thought the ideas was that you couldn't see if someone was trans unless told so?
So go back to the last page. Why do you or George feel necessary to comment the way you do?

You can easily remove Beamin's comments from your statistical analysis of the thread when you write your doctoral thesis, if that is how you choose to see things. Because she chose to disclose that information.

This being the internet, you can't see any gender unless given that information. I assume everyone here is male, unless otherwise indicated, and I bet everyone else does, too. If login name is the only indication, I am aware of only 2 other members as being presumably female (I am surely missing some from other countries where I am not familiar with boy/girl names). If they post here, maybe you can ask them to submit to a DNA test. You wouldn't want someone living life and presenting as a female to have an unfair advantage in an internet thread due to past testosterone and bone structure, now would you?

I think something got lost somewhere, I all for people living life how ever they want, I don't care what gender they are or were
if someone is presenting as a female I'll assume she's female and vice versa, and as you say this is the internet most of the
time you don't know unless it is made an issue

George was being a tactless jerk, that doesn't mean there wasn't a hint of truth in it

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Circlotron on August 20, 2018, 09:09:41 am
Heres a tip next time you see a trans person do yourself a favor and shut the fuck up. What problem do you have with that?
You are no lady, that’s for sure.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 20, 2018, 10:11:01 am
Heres a tip next time you see a trans person do yourself a favor and shut the fuck up. What problem do you have with that?
You are no lady, that’s for sure.


The reason 40% of trans people attempt suicide is because they know they will never be 100% male or female. That is the hardest part. the original comenter  knows this and purposefully said that to be hurtful.

It's way beyond rude: I used to frequent a trans support forum where there was a 16 year old " Male to female" transgirl. She ended up commiting suicide and one of her last posts was "no matter what I'll never be a real woman." So you don't say that to people. I often wonder if on her last day some prick told her that and thats why we lost her. I know the state where she lived was very christian conservative. So there is no need for that here or anywhere. I don't want to lose any more friends because some asshole had to make it a point that they were prejudice.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 20, 2018, 10:23:21 am
It's an unfortunate fact that with present day technology it just isn't possible to fully change one's physical gender. You can change the outward appearance with enough effort but it's simply not possible to go all the way. Maybe some day the situation will be different but today it isn't.

I've wondered if it might be more feasible to change the brain to match the body rather than trying to go the other way around, but I don't want that comment to be confused with supporting the various nutty conversion therapies and whatnot that some try to impose on others. At any rate it's an unfortunate circumstance any way you look at it and I don't think I could ever really understand what it feels like. Gender identity must be wired in the brain somewhere, even with all we know today the brain is still largely a mystery.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: amyk on August 20, 2018, 10:35:54 am
North American political correctness meets East European reality. :popcorn:
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 20, 2018, 11:33:51 am
Heres a tip next time you see a trans person do yourself a favor and shut the fuck up. What problem do you have with that?
You are no lady, that’s for sure.
The reason 40% of trans people attempt suicide is because they know they will never be 100% male or female. That is the hardest part. the original comenter  knows this and purposefully said that to be hurtful.

I don't think he said it to be purposely hurtful, he was just being blunt, as engineers tend to do, they inherently lack tact.
My first written job reference said, and I quote "David sometimes lacks tact, but I don't believe this is due to rudeness, it's just his innate enthusiasm. With time I believe he will refine this quality." (Nope!)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on August 20, 2018, 06:35:34 pm
My first written job reference said, and I quote "David sometimes lacks tact, but I don't believe this is due to rudeness, it's just his innate enthusiasm. With time I believe he will refine this quality." (Nope!)

I don't know about Australia, but in the UK, references from previous employees' comapnies are now strictly factual, and have been for over 25 years: there is no room for any positive of negative comments about how well the employee performed. e.g., "David Jones worked as Chief Bottle Washer at XYZ Corp form 1 June 1995 to 31 August 2001", and that's it.

You can still get more subjective personal references from previous managers, but they will be just that, a personal reference, and certainly not on company headed notepaper. As far as anyone knows, that personal reference could be from the applicant's mother, so it has limited value, although agencies still use them.

This is as a result of potential litigation threats.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on August 20, 2018, 08:18:45 pm
Maybe you would feel more comfortable or at least less threatened in the comment section of the altright forums or alex jones channel.

Paul Joseph Watson is great, yes.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 21, 2018, 12:11:38 pm
IMHO I don't think this is really the place to discuss transphobia or the reasons for it. I do see some relevance to the trans topic as it relates to the original topic of this thread though. Regardless of their reasons for doing so, people who have taken hormones of the opposite sex are in a unique position of having experienced the effects of both.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 21, 2018, 12:13:31 pm
This is as a result of potential litigation threats.

 :rant:
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 21, 2018, 12:16:31 pm
NOTE: I have removed Beamin's post, I will not have this thread hijacked like that.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 21, 2018, 12:23:01 pm
NOTE: I have removed Beamin's post, I will not have this thread hijacked like that.


Sorry its a sensitive issue that I'll leave alone.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Circlotron on August 21, 2018, 01:09:06 pm
From a different thread:
But sometimes I get these seizures and it will wipe out some bits of my memory. ...  Unfortunately with my condition I never know what I am going to forget.

Okay, so this might sound like I am trolling but it really is a genuine question. If you or the mods consider it inappropriate then by all means remove it. Not a problem as far as I am concerned. The question is - given you have these seizures that make you forget stuff, do you think they might have made you forget that you once considered yourself to be a man? As I say, if this is offensive or whatever, flag it for removal. No offense meant or taken on my part.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 21, 2018, 01:32:36 pm
From a different thread:
But sometimes I get these seizures and it will wipe out some bits of my memory. ...  Unfortunately with my condition I never know what I am going to forget.

Okay, so this might sound like I am trolling but it really is a genuine question. If you or the mods consider it inappropriate then by all means remove it. Not a problem as far as I am concerned. The question is - given you have these seizures that make you forget stuff, do you think they might have made you forget that you once considered yourself to be a man? As I say, if this is offensive or whatever, flag it for removal. No offense meant or taken on my part.


That would actually be kind of funny. "Why are you trans? I went clothes shopping and forgot if I normally shop in the men's or women's department. Now I have all these clothes and they really make my ass look great!"
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Eka on August 21, 2018, 11:36:01 pm
^There's no need for that. Why? Do you think you're gaining points from the 2 other women on the forum?

There are plenty of men, here, speaking on behalf of women, and no one has an issue with that.
Beamin has a unique perspective, and we are lucky that she shares it with us.

I agree, but at the same time if you were to do a scientific study of something male vs. female I'd imagine
trans people would be excluded from the study as to not add potential statistical outliers
We'd be outliers to the feminine side... ;)

From a different thread:
But sometimes I get these seizures and it will wipe out some bits of my memory. ...  Unfortunately with my condition I never know what I am going to forget.

Okay, so this might sound like I am trolling but it really is a genuine question. If you or the mods consider it inappropriate then by all means remove it. Not a problem as far as I am concerned. The question is - given you have these seizures that make you forget stuff, do you think they might have made you forget that you once considered yourself to be a man? As I say, if this is offensive or whatever, flag it for removal. No offense meant or taken on my part.
From studies of brain injured people they know gender is part of the old reptile brain.

I've wondered if it might be more feasible to change the brain to match the body rather than trying to go the other way around, but I don't want that comment to be confused with supporting the various nutty conversion therapies and whatnot that some try to impose on others. At any rate it's an unfortunate circumstance any way you look at it and I don't think I could ever really understand what it feels like. Gender identity must be wired in the brain somewhere, even with all we know today the brain is still largely a mystery.
Nope, was tried on me. 18 months of conversion therapy with over 1600 ECT jolts done destroyed who I was, yet I was still transgender after. I was still as feminine as before. I just lost most skills and memories from before, and what was left had many errors. I couldn't even identify my parents and partners. It also totally changed my personality. Gender is fundamental to who you are as a person. It is the basis on which your whole conscious being is built on top of. This is why the only known treatment that has been successful for transgenders is transition, and the earlier it is done, the better the outcome.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on August 22, 2018, 12:06:21 am
Gender is fundamental to who you are as a person. It is the basis on which your whole conscious being is built on top of. This is why the only known treatment that has been successful for transgenders is transition, and the earlier it is done, the better the outcome.

This I disagree with. It is generalizing the experience of one person to everyone, which cannot be done. You only have your own personal experience, you cannot know what is inside anyone else's head.

From my personal experience, I have a biological sex, but I could not say what gender I have, or what gender means. Any person can exhibit masculine traits and feminine traits in various proportions across a continuous spectrum. Some men are good at empathy and looking after the needs of others, and may be drawn to the caring professions like nursing. They may have many female traits, but does that make them female?

Whatever the case, most people adapt to societal norms and figure out how to fit in and be accepted according to their sex. It is the people who cannot adapt and cannot learn how to fit in who are troubled and have difficulty. That is a problem, but I do not know if it is a gender problem or a psychological problem.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on August 22, 2018, 12:19:02 am
Heres a tip next time you see a trans person do yourself a favor and shut the fuck up. What problem do you have with that?
You are no lady, that’s for sure.


The reason 40% of trans people attempt suicide is because they know they will never be 100% male or female. That is the hardest part. the original comenter  knows this and purposefully said that to be hurtful.

It's way beyond rude: I used to frequent a trans support forum where there was a 16 year old " Male to female" transgirl. She ended up commiting suicide and one of her last posts was "no matter what I'll never be a real woman." So you don't say that to people. I often wonder if on her last day some prick told her that and thats why we lost her. I know the state where she lived was very christian conservative. So there is no need for that here or anywhere. I don't want to lose any more friends because some asshole had to make it a point that they were prejudice.
I don't think he has a problem with transgender people. He was just stating a fact. I doubt he was trying to be hurtful. It's more likely he was completely ignorant of how transgender people feel.

It's sad people kill themselves because of this. It's clearly a mental problem and surgery will not fix it. I think the only way to be happy deep down is to accept you'll never be 100% female, which I'm sure is easier said than done.

Nope, was tried on me. 18 months of conversion therapy with over 1600 ECT jolts done destroyed who I was, yet I was still transgender after. I was still as feminine as before. I just lost most skills and memories from before, and what was left had many errors. I couldn't even identify my parents and partners. It also totally changed my personality. Gender is fundamental to who you are as a person. It is the basis on which your whole conscious being is built on top of. This is why the only known treatment that has been successful for transgenders is transition, and the earlier it is done, the better the outcome.
I think he was talking about a brain surgery to change the reptilian part of the brain, using technology which doesn't yet exist and will probably never be developed.

Is surgery always necessary? It seems a bit drastic to me.

Can't someone just accept their body for what it is? If you're biologically one gender, but psychologically another, then isn't it better to work on self-acceptance? Isn't striving to be more masculine or feminine part of the problem?

Gender reassignment surgery may help some people, but I don't think it can help everyone who wants to change their gender.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 22, 2018, 01:07:38 am
Is surgery always necessary? It seems a bit drastic to me.

Can't someone just accept their body for what it is? If you're biologically one gender, but psychologically another, then isn't it better to work on self-acceptance? Isn't striving to be more masculine or feminine part of the problem?

Gender reassignment surgery may help some people, but I don't think it can help everyone who wants to change their gender.
It's not about wanting to change gender, it's about aligning it to the one you already know you are.

Not all transgender people opt for surgery. But for many, it's very meaningful.

Try to think of it like this: assuming you're a man, imagine that you know you're a man, and were to suddenly wake up and find yourself "trapped" in a woman's body. I think it'd be rather distressing.

Ultimately, though, I don't understand why onlookers get so bent out of shape about this. Who cares? If someone else feels they need gender reassignment, why should I be bothered by this at all?!? It doesn't affect me in any way. Live and let live. There's nothing to be gained by questioning someone's motives, second-guessing their intentions, and interfering with their choices. On the contrary, those people suffer a lot from people's intolerance.


Alignment of self-image and actual body is, psychologically, hugely important. Why? Who knows. Ever heard of body dysmorphic disorder? It's where someone feels that a body part (typically a limb) is just not "right". In their self-image, it's not there, so the presence of said limb is like a foreign object. And despite being recognized as a mental illness, the best patient satisfaction comes from simply amputating the affected limb. (Doctors run into all sorts of ethics board issues on this, since removing a healthy limb is "harm", and yet from a mental health standpoint, it works. Similarly, people with involuntary amputations feel very offended by it.)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: BillB on August 22, 2018, 01:13:43 am
  ???                                                            --------->                                  --------->                                     --------->                                     --------->         engineering/electronics     
you are here


Wow, this thread derailed quickly.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on August 22, 2018, 01:46:11 am
Is surgery always necessary? It seems a bit drastic to me.

Can't someone just accept their body for what it is? If you're biologically one gender, but psychologically another, then isn't it better to work on self-acceptance? Isn't striving to be more masculine or feminine part of the problem?

Gender reassignment surgery may help some people, but I don't think it can help everyone who wants to change their gender.
It's not about wanting to change gender, it's about aligning it to the one you already know you are.
I think you've missed the point. I'm clearly talking about biological vs physical psychological gender. I understand in some cases there's a mismatch, hence why some people feel the need for reassignment. I think the problem is some people expect too much from it.

Quote
Not all transgender people opt for surgery. But for many, it's very meaningful.
I agree, the problem is helping someone to make the right choice for them.

Quote
Try to think of it like this: assuming you're a man, imagine that you know you're a man, and were to suddenly wake up and find yourself "trapped" in a woman's body. I think it'd be rather distressing.
That would be totally different. I have had a male body for the last 36 years and have had plenty of time to get used to it. I think I would also be pretty distressed if I woke up in a different man's body.

Quote
Ultimately, though, I don't understand why onlookers get so bent out of shape about this. Who cares? If someone else feels they need gender reassignment, why should I be bothered by this at all?!? It doesn't affect me in any way. Live and let live. There's nothing to be gained by questioning someone's motives, second-guessing their intentions, and interfering with their choices. On the contrary, those people suffer a lot from people's intolerance.
I'd mostly agree with this. The only problem I have when I see someone who I'm not 100% sure whether they're male or female is the fear of offending them, by referring to them as the wrong gender.

I agree people should be treated respect, as long as what they do doesn't affect others, but I think it works both ways. Someone who's different, should also accept that others may not fully understand them and may occasionally say or do something which offends them, unintentionally. I get lots with what words are politically correct and what isn't and I'm only 36. I imagine my father's generation has even more of a problem. I find it very frustrating. Can't we just try to assume people have the best of intentions?

Quote
Alignment of self-image and actual body is, psychologically, hugely important. Why? Who knows. Ever heard of body dysmorphic disorder? It's where someone feels that a body part (typically a limb) is just not "right". In their self-image, it's not there, so the presence of said limb is like a foreign object. And despite being recognized as a mental illness, the best patient satisfaction comes from simply amputating the affected limb. (Doctors run into all sorts of ethics board issues on this, since removing a healthy limb is "harm", and yet from a mental health standpoint, it works. Similarly, people with involuntary amputations feel very offended by it.)
That's one form of body dysmorphic disorder. There are others too. One is muscle dysmorphic disorder where one perceives themselves to be thin and weak and goes to extreme lengths to put on lots of muscle. Another is the obsession with a certain body part, making it look a certain way, such as women who continuously have cosmetic surgery.

I know not everyone who's transgender has this issue, but I think some do and focus too much on being masculine or feminine. Heck, there are people who aren't transgender who have this issue to, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's more common in those who are.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 22, 2018, 02:10:06 am
Quote
Try to think of it like this: assuming you're a man, imagine that you know you're a man, and were to suddenly wake up and find yourself "trapped" in a woman's body. I think it'd be rather distressing.
That would be totally different. I have had a male body for the last 36 years and have had plenty of time to get used to it. I think I would also be pretty distressed if I woke up in a different man's body.
Well, what transgender people generally say is that they've always known which gender they are mentally. I have to take their word for it to a large extent. But at the same time, when I came out, I had to explain to some people that no, I'm absolutely happy being a man, have always known I am male.

Quote
Ultimately, though, I don't understand why onlookers get so bent out of shape about this. Who cares? If someone else feels they need gender reassignment, why should I be bothered by this at all?!? It doesn't affect me in any way. Live and let live. There's nothing to be gained by questioning someone's motives, second-guessing their intentions, and interfering with their choices. On the contrary, those people suffer a lot from people's intolerance.
I'd mostly agree with this. The only problem I have when I see someone who I'm not 100% sure whether they're male or female is the fear of offending them, by referring to them as the wrong gender.
Yep, those situations can be tricky. (Especially in today's hypersensitive society that you touch on below. I'll come back to this.) Usually there's some way to work around it, though. And if someone has told you that they identify as something other than male or female, it's not inappropriate to simply ask "what pronouns do you prefer?" and make no fuss about it.

I agree people should be treated respect, as long as what they do doesn't affect others, but I think it works both ways. Someone who's different, should also accept that others may not fully understand them and may occasionally say or do something which offends them, unintentionally. I get lots with what words are politically correct and what isn't and I'm only 36. I imagine my father's generation has even more of a problem. I find it very frustrating. Can't we just try to assume people have the best of intentions?
No!! Today is all about professional victimhood. Gotta love the SJWs, who make it their mission to be offended even for others, who themselves didn't feel offended! I got into a facebook tiff with a SJW who first called me a misogynist (which couldn't be farther from the truth) and racist (equally untrue), saying I was "mansplaining" (i.e. explaining something to a woman, while being male), and then got mad at me for "assuming" she was female because she presents as female… can't win with those fools. Been trying to teach myself to simply not respond to them at all.

And of course that kind of nonsense creates animosity in people like me who are actual allies to minorities.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 22, 2018, 02:10:27 am
Nope, was tried on me. 18 months of conversion therapy with over 1600 ECT jolts done destroyed who I was, yet I was still transgender after. I was still as feminine as before. I just lost most skills and memories from before, and what was left had many errors. I couldn't even identify my parents and partners. It also totally changed my personality. Gender is fundamental to who you are as a person. It is the basis on which your whole conscious being is built on top of. This is why the only known treatment that has been successful for transgenders is transition, and the earlier it is done, the better the outcome.

I specifically said that I was not talking about existing conversion therapies. We don't currently have the ability to directly alter the brain to make such fundamental changes but it must be technically possible given sufficient technological development. Given the ability to literally rearrange neurons it should be possible in theory to change any aspect of one's personality, even constructing synthetic memories. Nobody knows precisely how gender identity is defined in the brain but I wouldn't discount the possibility of eventually being able to change that.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rsjsouza on August 22, 2018, 02:29:07 am
Can't someone just accept their body for what it is? If you're biologically one gender, but psychologically another, then isn't it better to work on self-acceptance? Isn't striving to be more masculine or feminine part of the problem?
Based on my own life experience, I agree vehemently with this (no, I am not a transgender; I had trouble with my body and was bullied in school because of physical inabilities). People are so different and struggle with so many issues with their own bodies/minds that the only practical option is to work on oneself instead of changing everyone else - yes, even including surgery, hormonal, mental treatment or whatever one thinks it suits them. Note that I am not talking about not changing the abhorrent ideas that claim to wipe one's existence out of this Earth - IMO this must be eradicated from society. It is certainly much harder for some than for others and there is certainly a case to be made to have an extra level of compassion and understanding about someone having a more troublesome path.

Nowadays several western societies are much more tolerant to the acceptance of differences (yeah, I know some areas are still very intolerant) but there are still several somewhat ill-defined lines that, when crossed, tend to create an abyss when passed as impositions by the many mainstream/social media outlets available. Nowadays these lines include the claims of complete transgender transition (discussed here), transitioning minors, negation of gender differences, health problems due to overweight, censorship of opposing opinions (hate speech), among others.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 22, 2018, 03:45:18 am
Wow, this thread derailed quickly.
Nature of the beast, flat forums derail, threaded forums are hard to follow.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 22, 2018, 03:49:15 am
Heres a tip next time you see a trans person do yourself a favor and shut the fuck up. What problem do you have with that?
You are no lady, that’s for sure.


The reason 40% of trans people attempt suicide is because they know they will never be 100% male or female. That is the hardest part. the original comenter  knows this and purposefully said that to be hurtful.

It's way beyond rude: I used to frequent a trans support forum where there was a 16 year old " Male to female" transgirl. She ended up commiting suicide and one of her last posts was "no matter what I'll never be a real woman." So you don't say that to people. I often wonder if on her last day some prick told her that and thats why we lost her. I know the state where she lived was very christian conservative. So there is no need for that here or anywhere. I don't want to lose any more friends because some asshole had to make it a point that they were prejudice.
I don't think he has a problem with transgender people. He was just stating a fact. I doubt he was trying to be hurtful. It's more likely he was completely ignorant of how transgender people feel.

It's sad people kill themselves because of this. It's clearly a mental problem and surgery will not fix it. I think the only way to be happy deep down is to accept you'll never be 100% female, which I'm sure is easier said than done.

Nope, was tried on me. 18 months of conversion therapy with over 1600 ECT jolts done destroyed who I was, yet I was still transgender after. I was still as feminine as before. I just lost most skills and memories from before, and what was left had many errors. I couldn't even identify my parents and partners. It also totally changed my personality. Gender is fundamental to who you are as a person. It is the basis on which your whole conscious being is built on top of. This is why the only known treatment that has been successful for transgenders is transition, and the earlier it is done, the better the outcome.
I think he was talking about a brain surgery to change the reptilian part of the brain, using technology which doesn't yet exist and will probably never be developed.

Is surgery always necessary? It seems a bit drastic to me.

Can't someone just accept their body for what it is? If you're biologically one gender, but psychologically another, then isn't it better to work on self-acceptance? Isn't striving to be more masculine or feminine part of the problem?

Gender reassignment surgery may help some people, but I don't think it can help everyone who wants to change their gender.



I think this really throws a lot of people off track. Sexual reassignment surgery. SRS,  is only a part of the transition and many trans people might get breast implants, plastic surgery on their face and everything else  but never get SRS.

 Before I started hormones I was 100% sure I wanted to get SRS and other feminizing surgeries as well as laser hair removal and  almost obsessed with being "passible" as a women. The biggest reason I didn't transition sooner was because I was afraid I would end up looking like a crossdresser or a man with a vagina. I planned not to start presenting as a women until I had long hair, breasts and removed every last body hair.


But that all changed when I started taking estrogen and testosterone blockers. Three months in and two laser hair treatments later (you need about 5-10 over 6 months to a year for 100% results) and as my male clothes stopped fitting I had to start dressing like a female just to feel normal. When I wore mens clothes I felt like a cross dresser. I no loner cared if I was 100% passible and 90% of the awkwardness of being seen by strangers as trans went away. Luckily for me,  I responded very well to the hormones and even to my doctors surprise; she said in 6 months I had better results then many had in 1-2 years. Strangers also started calling me she at only three months which I wasn't expecting. That for some reason is a huge part of it. But its more then just hormones and clothes, it's the way you stand, walk, act, etc is just as important. For me that meant not pretending to be masculine.


At this point other then to finish laser on my face and upper chest I'm probably not going to do any surgeries: I really don't need them as I like the way I look and should achieve the desired results in 1 or 2 years.

For me transitioning is the mental/personality change from the hormones. I'm a totally different person now.


And thats why I think gender politics are overtaking the work place in the EE field. ;)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 22, 2018, 04:19:44 am
transitioning minors

This is the biggest problem, where tolerance doesn't really provide an answer. To what extent do you allow doctors to enable parents in this (or conversion therapy for that matter). The Do No Harm principle is hard to maintain, all but the most delusional of leftist would admit some kids grow out of their gender dysphoria during puberty. When you put kids on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones when you can't identify the ones likely to grow out of it, you are quite clearly doing harm.

Only the absolutist libertarians have a nice and simple answer.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 22, 2018, 07:03:50 am
transitioning minors

This is the biggest problem, where tolerance doesn't really provide an answer. To what extent do you allow doctors to enable parents in this (or conversion therapy for that matter). The Do No Harm principle is hard to maintain, all but the most delusional of leftist would admit some kids grow out of their gender dysphoria during puberty. When you put kids on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones when you can't identify the ones likely to grow out of it, you are quite clearly doing harm.

Only the absolutist libertarians have a nice and simple answer.


From what I know about myself and transpeople I have met is that you know by or around age 5. Some realize later in their teens but it seems like really they knew earlier but didn't understand that being trans was an actual physical condition or religion made them think it was just a bad thought. The ones that think they are trans but really are not seem to have confusion brought on by puberty or discovering they are just gay and not trans in their  early teens.

The effects of puberty blockers are 100% reversible. With them just hitting puberty later on but otherwise becoming fully functioning male or females. Because gender dysphoria can be so bad with such a high suicide rate and long lasting psychological issues it might actually be safer to use puberty blockers then risk suicide of a life time of regret that they waited until their 30's or 40's. A big hurdle I had to get over was all the regret I had by waiting until my 30's instead of 20. Hormones work less and less the older you are. I am extremely lucky and grateful I had the results of a 20 year old, but my body wasn't really male to begin with making very little test and just being small and girly compared to my siblings. People would think I was a girl as a child despite me trying hard not to be. That's why I think this condition is a physical one and not psychological.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on August 22, 2018, 07:54:36 am
Quote
Try to think of it like this: assuming you're a man, imagine that you know you're a man, and were to suddenly wake up and find yourself "trapped" in a woman's body. I think it'd be rather distressing.
That would be totally different. I have had a male body for the last 36 years and have had plenty of time to get used to it. I think I would also be pretty distressed if I woke up in a different man's body.
Well, what transgender people generally say is that they've always known which gender they are mentally. I have to take their word for it to a large extent. But at the same time, when I came out, I had to explain to some people that no, I'm absolutely happy being a man, have always known I am male.
In your case, that sounds more like ignorance, than bigotry to me. Many don't understand that being homosexual and transgender are totally different things. They lump them all into the same group and label them all as gay, queer, faggots etc. whether you like those words or not. One of the reasons for this could be the fault of the LGBT community being as one, rather than two distinct groups: homo/bisexual and transgender. I suppose transgender people are subject to bigotry, just as much has homosexuals, so it makes sense for the "sexually not "normal" people"* to stick together.

*Whatever "normal" is. Lets not also forget that I think some people are homophobic because they're not completely hetero and it unnerves them.

transitioning minors

This is the biggest problem, where tolerance doesn't really provide an answer. To what extent do you allow doctors to enable parents in this (or conversion therapy for that matter). The Do No Harm principle is hard to maintain, all but the most delusional of leftist would admit some kids grow out of their gender dysphoria during puberty. When you put kids on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones when you can't identify the ones likely to grow out of it, you are quite clearly doing harm.

Only the absolutist libertarians have a nice and simple answer.

From what I know about myself and transpeople I have met is that you know by or around age 5. Some realize later in their teens but it seems like really they knew earlier but didn't understand that being trans was an actual physical condition or religion made them think it was just a bad thought. The ones that think they are trans but really are not seem to have confusion brought on by puberty or discovering they are just gay and not trans in their  early teens.

The effects of puberty blockers are 100% reversible. With them just hitting puberty later on but otherwise becoming fully functioning male or females. Because gender dysphoria can be so bad with such a high suicide rate and long lasting psychological issues it might actually be safer to use puberty blockers then risk suicide of a life time of regret that they waited until their 30's or 40's. A big hurdle I had to get over was all the regret I had by waiting until my 30's instead of 20. Hormones work less and less the older you are. I am extremely lucky and grateful I had the results of a 20 year old, but my body wasn't really male to begin with making very little test and just being small and girly compared to my siblings. People would think I was a girl as a child despite me trying hard not to be. That's why I think this condition is a physical one and not psychological.
That's what I've been told as well: most trans people knew they felt they were different, long before puberty. The problem with leaving it until puberty is one's body is already irreversibly starting to develop into something they don't want it to be.

I'm not aware of any cases of people who thought they were trans, but later on changed their mind, but I wouldn't be surprised if such cases exist. I agree that delaying puberty may be a good idea, in some cases.

Care needs to be taken because children say all sorts of things. My six year old nephew has talked about wanting to be female because it wants to be able to make babies, but they doesn't mean he's trans. So far, he's not shown any other symptoms such as preferring girl's toys, clothing or wanting to befriend girls, rather than boys, so it seems unlikely at this stage.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 22, 2018, 08:14:25 am
Quote
Try to think of it like this: assuming you're a man, imagine that you know you're a man, and were to suddenly wake up and find yourself "trapped" in a woman's body. I think it'd be rather distressing.
That would be totally different. I have had a male body for the last 36 years and have had plenty of time to get used to it. I think I would also be pretty distressed if I woke up in a different man's body.
Well, what transgender people generally say is that they've always known which gender they are mentally. I have to take their word for it to a large extent. But at the same time, when I came out, I had to explain to some people that no, I'm absolutely happy being a man, have always known I am male.
In your case, that sounds more like ignorance, than bigotry to me. Many don't understand that being homosexual and transgender are totally different things. They lump them all into the same group and label them all as gay, queer, faggots etc. whether you like those words or not. One of the reasons for this could be the fault of the LGBT community being as one, rather than two distinct groups: homo/bisexual and transgender. I suppose transgender people are subject to bigotry, just as much has homosexuals, so it makes sense for the "sexually not "normal" people"* to stick together.

*Whatever "normal" is. Lets not also forget that I think some people are homophobic because they're not completely hetero and it unnerves them.

transitioning minors

This is the biggest problem, where tolerance doesn't really provide an answer. To what extent do you allow doctors to enable parents in this (or conversion therapy for that matter). The Do No Harm principle is hard to maintain, all but the most delusional of leftist would admit some kids grow out of their gender dysphoria during puberty. When you put kids on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones when you can't identify the ones likely to grow out of it, you are quite clearly doing harm.

Only the absolutist libertarians have a nice and simple answer.

From what I know about myself and transpeople I have met is that you know by or around age 5. Some realize later in their teens but it seems like really they knew earlier but didn't understand that being trans was an actual physical condition or religion made them think it was just a bad thought. The ones that think they are trans but really are not seem to have confusion brought on by puberty or discovering they are just gay and not trans in their  early teens.

The effects of puberty blockers are 100% reversible. With them just hitting puberty later on but otherwise becoming fully functioning male or females. Because gender dysphoria can be so bad with such a high suicide rate and long lasting psychological issues it might actually be safer to use puberty blockers then risk suicide of a life time of regret that they waited until their 30's or 40's. A big hurdle I had to get over was all the regret I had by waiting until my 30's instead of 20. Hormones work less and less the older you are. I am extremely lucky and grateful I had the results of a 20 year old, but my body wasn't really male to begin with making very little test and just being small and girly compared to my siblings. People would think I was a girl as a child despite me trying hard not to be. That's why I think this condition is a physical one and not psychological.
That's what I've been told as well: most trans people knew they felt they were different, long before puberty. The problem with leaving it until puberty is one's body is already irreversibly starting to develop into something they don't want it to be.

I'm not aware of any cases of people who thought they were trans, but later on changed their mind, but I wouldn't be surprised if such cases exist. I agree that delaying puberty may be a good idea, in some cases.

Care needs to be taken because children say all sorts of things. My six year old nephew has talked about wanting to be female because it wants to be able to make babies, but they doesn't mean he's trans. So far, he's not shown any other symptoms such as preferring girl's toys, clothing or wanting to befriend girls, rather than boys, so it seems unlikely at this stage.

Thats spot on about the LGB T thing. LBG are sexuality, and sexuality can be more of a spectrum, but conversely homosexuality of men is a built in thing that switches on during the mothers preganancy. T is gender and really not toomuch of a spectrum but is for some. I personally was hypermasculine now hyperfeminine. I like mento strong tall and dominat, women small sort and submissive. But since many people's sexuality change when they become trans it kind of fits. My sexuality changed when I went on estrogen. I was not expecting that. I even tried having a relationship with a guy as a guy but found it to not be appealing at all. But being with a guy as a women totally is. I wish more "normal" people understood this you are the first straight person I have heard understand this.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 22, 2018, 08:18:01 am
I would say that gender is as much a spectrum as sexuality. There may not be quite the same spread but certainly I've met some quite girly guys and a few female tomboys who were not trans, and on the other end of the spectrum you have the classic musclebound alpha male Rambo types and super girly Barbie type women.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 22, 2018, 08:28:22 am
I would say that gender is as much a spectrum as sexuality. There may not be quite the same spread but certainly I've met some quite girly guys and a few female tomboys who were not trans, and on the other end of the spectrum you have the classic musclebound alpha male Rambo types and super girly Barbie type women.


My theory is that those girls have high levels of testosterone. Many I knew were weightlifters and could bench more then me. Growing muscle without test is really hard if not impossible. I made more progress in a month on test then a year before I as on it.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 22, 2018, 08:49:43 am
From what I know about myself and transpeople I have met is that you know by or around age 5. Some realize later in their teens but it seems like really they knew earlier but didn't understand that being trans was an actual physical condition or religion made them think it was just a bad thought. The ones that think they are trans but really are not seem to have confusion brought on by puberty or discovering they are just gay and not trans in their  early teens.
Unless the doctors can distinguish the true Scotsman it doesn't really matter if the true Scotsman actually exist, the false Scotsman will get hurt by affirmative therapy regardless.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 22, 2018, 08:53:34 am
From what I know about myself and transpeople I have met is that you know by or around age 5. Some realize later in their teens but it seems like really they knew earlier but didn't understand that being trans was an actual physical condition or religion made them think it was just a bad thought. The ones that think they are trans but really are not seem to have confusion brought on by puberty or discovering they are just gay and not trans in their  early teens.
Unless the doctors can distinguish the true Scotsman it doesn't really matter if the true Scotsman actually exist, the false Scotsman will get hurt by affirmative therapy regardless.

What is "affirmative therapy"?

Also what was this thread about? I think we need to steer it back on topic.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 22, 2018, 09:00:03 am
I would say that gender is as much a spectrum as sexuality. There may not be quite the same spread but certainly I've met some quite girly guys and a few female tomboys who were not trans, and on the other end of the spectrum you have the classic musclebound alpha male Rambo types and super girly Barbie type women.


My theory is that those girls have high levels of testosterone. Many I knew were weightlifters and could bench more then me. Growing muscle without test is really hard if not impossible. I made more progress in a month on test then a year before I as on it.

that is also why there is such controversy about trans athletes

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 22, 2018, 09:25:07 am
I would say that gender is as much a spectrum as sexuality. There may not be quite the same spread but certainly I've met some quite girly guys and a few female tomboys who were not trans, and on the other end of the spectrum you have the classic musclebound alpha male Rambo types and super girly Barbie type women.


My theory is that those girls have high levels of testosterone. Many I knew were weightlifters and could bench more then me. Growing muscle without test is really hard if not impossible. I made more progress in a month on test then a year before I as on it.

that is also why there is such controversy about trans athletes

But only when they lose. Ms. Universe or Ms.World/Ms. America/USA this year was trans and the losers who are not as pretty are already crying about it. Should they outlaw plastic surgery in these competition like steroids in sports? She was using the beauty enhancing hormone/drug estrogen!
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 22, 2018, 09:48:29 am
transitioning minors

This is the biggest problem, where tolerance doesn't really provide an answer. To what extent do you allow doctors to enable parents in this (or conversion therapy for that matter). The Do No Harm principle is hard to maintain, all but the most delusional of leftist would admit some kids grow out of their gender dysphoria during puberty. When you put kids on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones when you can't identify the ones likely to grow out of it, you are quite clearly doing harm.

Only the absolutist libertarians have a nice and simple answer.
I'm hardly an absolutist libertarian, but yes, it's very nice and simple: delay puberty. There's no harm in doing that. On the other hand, remember that inaction can also cause harm, and in the case of a trans kid, letting them enter puberty into the wrong gender causes irreversible body changes that are contrary to what they want.

If delaying puberty had horrible side effects, your argument would be more valid. But luckily, it doesn't, so it's a really, really good option for someone struggling with their gender identity. But as you must know by now, the overwhelming majority of trans people recognize their gender in early childhood. It's quite rare for someone to really not identify it until late. And we must be sure to not confuse recognizing one's gender dysphoria with accepting it — those are very different things, and especially in societies, religions, or families with strong views against it, acceptance can be a hugely difficult step.



Quote
Try to think of it like this: assuming you're a man, imagine that you know you're a man, and were to suddenly wake up and find yourself "trapped" in a woman's body. I think it'd be rather distressing.
That would be totally different. I have had a male body for the last 36 years and have had plenty of time to get used to it. I think I would also be pretty distressed if I woke up in a different man's body.
Well, what transgender people generally say is that they've always known which gender they are mentally. I have to take their word for it to a large extent. But at the same time, when I came out, I had to explain to some people that no, I'm absolutely happy being a man, have always known I am male.
In your case, that sounds more like ignorance, than bigotry to me.
Oh, absolutely! Ignorance in truly the most benign meaning. (I also had to explain that no, I hadn't been molested as a child… the things people believe!  :o )

Many don't understand that being homosexual and transgender are totally different things. They lump them all into the same group and label them all as gay, queer, faggots etc. whether you like those words or not. One of the reasons for this could be the fault of the LGBT community being as one, rather than two distinct groups: homo/bisexual and transgender. I suppose transgender people are subject to bigotry, just as much has homosexuals, so it makes sense for the "sexually not "normal" people"* to stick together.
Yep, we "sexual deviants" sorta just glommed together, even though they really are two completely independent axes: sexual orientation (who you are attracted to) and gender identity (who you are). And yes, you really can have any combination. I have a friend who is physically male (and does identify as male, for now at least), and is attracted to women, but says that he feels like he's a lesbian in a man's body.

*Whatever "normal" is. Lets not also forget that I think some people are homophobic because they're not completely hetero and it unnerves them.
You mean the ones who go on to be conservative politicians who are then routinely spotted on Grindr in Washington, DC (and are well known to the gay escorts)?

I struggle with whether to pity or hate those guys. I think "both" is fair, insofar as it's a pity anyone feels they can't be their authentic self, but on the other hand, you don't have to poison the well for the rest of us. It seems like it's almost a kind of spite…

That's what I've been told as well: most trans people knew they felt they were different, long before puberty. The problem with leaving it until puberty is one's body is already irreversibly starting to develop into something they don't want it to be.

I'm not aware of any cases of people who thought they were trans, but later on changed their mind, but I wouldn't be surprised if such cases exist. I agree that delaying puberty may be a good idea, in some cases.

Care needs to be taken because children say all sorts of things. My six year old nephew has talked about wanting to be female because it wants to be able to make babies, but they doesn't mean he's trans. So far, he's not shown any other symptoms such as preferring girl's toys, clothing or wanting to befriend girls, rather than boys, so it seems unlikely at this stage.
I have heard of a few cases of people who transitioned (voluntarily) and then transitioned back. But it seems to be exceedingly rare. (Unlike when sex reassignment was performed on intersex babies, and turns out they went with the wrong sex. These cases seem to often end horrifically. That's why nowadays, they leave intersex kids alone, and once the child's gender has expressed clearly, let the child choose whether to go with any medical intervention.)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on August 22, 2018, 10:01:25 am
the overwhelming majority of trans people recognize their gender in early childhood

Why does the word "trans" have to be in this sentence? Wouldn't it also be just as valid to say, "the overwhelming majority of people recognize their gender in early childhood"?

And then how does a child recognize their gender? When I was a child I observed girls were differentiated by associating and playing together, and the games they played included hopscotch, skipping, singing rhymes, gymnastics, and similar. This was different from how boys liked to play, which included running, punching, ball games, and fighting. So to recognize your gender it would be which one of these categories you naturally fitted into? Is that the case?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 22, 2018, 10:11:47 am
Oops, I left out the word "dysphoria" after "gender".

As for gender identity, it's not about activities, though one might have affinity for some. Ultimately, it's about just "knowing" what gender you are. It's something most of us don't really give much thought to, because mental and physical gender match. But when they don't, it's obvious. You hear about trans kids saying "but mommy, why do you keep saying I'm a boy when I'm a girl?" (to a kid physically presenting as male).
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on August 22, 2018, 10:27:57 am
As for gender identity, it's not about activities, though one might have affinity for some. Ultimately, it's about just "knowing" what gender you are. It's something most of us don't really give much thought to, because mental and physical gender match. But when they don't, it's obvious. You hear about trans kids saying "but mommy, why do you keep saying I'm a boy when I'm a girl?" (to a kid physically presenting as male).

This is the bit where I think it is confusing. I suspect the majority of people have no gender, they only have a biological sex. I don't think most people know what gender they are. For instance I recently took a gender identity questionnaire and it said I was female. There are men who manifest strongly female traits and who would naturally be found surrounded by female friends and colleagues, and yet get along fine as males.

Hence I think the majority of people know their sex but have no real concern about gender. It doesn't cross their mind. A minority somehow have an idea of gender that strongly affects them, and these are the people that are troubled.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 22, 2018, 10:30:47 am
I disagree. I think everyone has a gender and knows it (it's the same as their physical sex — most of the time). But because it does align in most people, most people don't think about it.

As for a questionnaire… well that's BS. The entire point is what you intuitively feel. It's precisely about it not being linked to cultural gender associations or other external factors.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 22, 2018, 11:05:37 am
I would say that gender is as much a spectrum as sexuality. There may not be quite the same spread but certainly I've met some quite girly guys and a few female tomboys who were not trans, and on the other end of the spectrum you have the classic musclebound alpha male Rambo types and super girly Barbie type women.


My theory is that those girls have high levels of testosterone. Many I knew were weightlifters and could bench more then me. Growing muscle without test is really hard if not impossible. I made more progress in a month on test then a year before I as on it.

that is also why there is such controversy about trans athletes

But only when they lose. Ms. Universe or Ms.World/Ms. America/USA this year was trans and the losers who are not as pretty are already crying about it. Should they outlaw plastic surgery in these competition like steroids in sports? She was using the beauty enhancing hormone/drug estrogen!

plastic surgery is already a controversial subject in beauty pageants. In any strength based sport an m to f trans can have
the advantage of some who had done massive amounts of steroids




 

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 22, 2018, 11:36:30 am
I know it's too much to ask, but can we try and talk about gender politics in engineering perhaps?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on August 22, 2018, 12:15:48 pm
I know it's too much to ask, but can we try and talk about gender politics in engineering perhaps?

The trouble with that is trying to define what "gender" is, as opposed to sex. It is hard to know.

I do know that many companies have specific "women in engineering" initiatives and support groups. I know that at least some female colleagues think that it is inherently much harder for women to succeed as engineers in the workplace than men.

What I observe is that some of the personality traits thought typical of men tend to backfire when women try to copy them. For example, what is "assertiveness" in men can be seen as "bossiness" in women. The natural antidote to that is that women should use guile and persuasiveness to achieve their goals. In other words, women in the workplace should be women, and should not try to emulate what they think men would do. (Assertiveness without appropriate persuasive arguments doesn't work for men either.)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Circlotron on August 22, 2018, 11:11:25 pm
Maybe there's a grain of truth here...
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 23, 2018, 10:45:34 am
the overwhelming majority of trans people recognize their gender in early childhood

Why does the word "trans" have to be in this sentence? Wouldn't it also be just as valid to say, "the overwhelming majority of people recognize their gender in early childhood"?

And then how does a child recognize their gender? When I was a child I observed girls were differentiated by associating and playing together, and the games they played included hopscotch, skipping, singing rhymes, gymnastics, and similar. This was different from how boys liked to play, which included running, punching, ball games, and fighting. So to recognize your gender it would be which one of these categories you naturally fitted into? Is that the case?


I don't even know how I know but I do. On the first day of school when I was young there were two bathrooms preschool had only one. They said girls use "this" one but I had to use "that" one. I knew something was terribly wrong with me I just felt it. This was a catholic kindergarten and in the school play all the boys were shepherds and all the girls were angels. I refused to put the Sheppard costume on because it seemed wrong; I wanted to wear the pretty white angel costume with the other girls. I got to be the angel. That's when I was still innocent. After that if you wore the girls costumes the kids would make fun of you so I didn't, at least until I home all alone. I can't remember ever having a time when I was home alone where I wouldn't wear my sister clothes now that I think about it.

I still couldn't tell you how I knew but I knew. That's why I think its hardwired into my brain.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Marco on August 23, 2018, 02:49:32 pm
I'm hardly an absolutist libertarian, but yes, it's very nice and simple: delay puberty. There's no harm in doing that.

There are no long term cohort studies studies to prove this, especially not for the group who would have changed their mind left alone (the group most in danger of active harm).

I think this shows an important aspect of differences of opinion between liberals and conservatives. Both will of course claim science is on their side, but liberals are more prone to declaring that physical reality must be on their side ... there is no alternative. Women must be as capable in cerebral jobs as men, if there is a discrepancy it must be because of (structural) discrimination.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on August 24, 2018, 05:12:15 am
I know it's too much to ask, but can we try and talk about gender politics in engineering perhaps?

Does it really matter if a thread goes off topic? I can see it's a problem if a thread is derailed by people fighting or someone hijacking it and the original poster doesn't get their question answered as a result, but if the topic changes and the discussion remains largely civil and interesting where's the harm?

Don't get me wrong, I accept you make the rules around here and am not expecting you to change them. I just want to understand your reasoning.

The trouble with that is trying to define what "gender" is, as opposed to sex. It is hard to know.

I do know that many companies have specific "women in engineering" initiatives and support groups. I know that at least some female colleagues think that it is inherently much harder for women to succeed as engineers in the workplace than men.

What I observe is that some of the personality traits thought typical of men tend to backfire when women try to copy them. For example, what is "assertiveness" in men can be seen as "bossiness" in women. The natural antidote to that is that women should use guile and persuasiveness to achieve their goals. In other words, women in the workplace should be women, and should not try to emulate what they think men would do. (Assertiveness without appropriate persuasive arguments doesn't work for men either.)
It works the other way round too. Men who are sensitive and show their emotions, especially ones such as regret, guilt and sadness are considered to be wimps and pussies.

In some respects society would be better if it didn't tie emotions and personality traits too much to gender, but it could be inherent in human nature i.e. instinct.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2018, 11:22:56 am
I know it's too much to ask, but can we try and talk about gender politics in engineering perhaps?

Does it really matter if a thread goes off topic?

Ordinarily, no, that is a natural part of forums. But there are several topics that just provoke endless debate and ultimately get personal and turn into dumpster fires. Politics, religion, guns, and gender (SJW/feminism these days) do the trick every time, that is why they are essentially banned from the forum.
I'm only allowing the gender in engineering thing to exist here because it's about engineering, and it's a valid discussion and there is no better place to discuss it than an engineering forum.
Please people, don't let this thread get hijacked into a what is gender/trans debate.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2018, 11:28:13 am
In some respects society would be better if it didn't tie emotions and personality traits too much to gender, but it could be inherent in human nature i.e. instinct.

And that's essentially the entire argument in all this debate. Studies have shown very conclusively that on average males and females are very different due to biological traits.
The social constructionists want you to believe that doesn't exist and it's all just social conditioning. But once again science trumps "the vibe", and the studies show that when you try and reduce the "social conditioning" aspect and make things more equal for females, the number of females who chose engineering/STEM goes down and not up.
The social constructions appear to be wrong.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2018, 11:37:07 am
Sorry Dave, for going that way. I would disagree, however, with engineering forums being the 'best' place to discuss social issues. That is a different field, such as infectious diseases in an engineer's cube, for example...
OK, maybe we expand to social engineering. ?

It's not just any social issue, it's engineering. Who else is better qualified to discuss the field of engineering as career than engineers on an engineering forum?

"Social engineering" is not the engineering profession, it's just a hijacked use of the terms. Females in engineering is 100% about the engineering industry and a career in it. Very clear cut.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: KL27x on August 24, 2018, 12:09:55 pm
Quote
the studies show that when you try and reduce the "social conditioning" aspect and make things more equal for females, the number of females who chose engineering/STEM goes down and not up.

"Social conditioning" starts out well before college level STEM courses or workplace quotas and programs.

In simpler times young boys and girls were not treated so very differently in many societies. I think I've read somewhere that in the 1700's and even 1800's in many anglo countries, boys and girls wore the same clothes and colors and hairstyles and were essentially treated more or less the same. Just kids. To people who did not know the children, they would not know boy from girl by visual distinction, nor even necessarily through casual interaction. That is until about puberty or so... which curiously puberty also happened a lot later in life a hundred years ago, particularly in women.

Today, the colors and toys and social expectations and positive/negative reinforcement of the parents are put in motion before they are even born. We sexualize our children before they even maybe have a gender identity... before they even perhaps have a concept of self. Today, it is a social crime for a parent to allow their 1 yr old to not obviously and immediately be recognized as one gender or the other to an outside observer.

It's quite hard to say for certain how much of the gender difference in just about anything is due to genetics vs culture/society. I'm curious how this could even be proven, barring some kind of inhumane secret trials.

I don't think it's possible to live in a gender-blind condition. It's part of human nature. To the point where many latin-based languages have the masculine and feminine form for almost every word in the language. But modern society and technology brings with it new issues. And I'm not saying that trans issues are a product of modern society. Trans people are documented in most cultures going back as far as human records go. But kids these days are exposed to "things" and expected to grow up and behave in a certain way at an earlier age than perhaps ever in history.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on August 24, 2018, 01:04:56 pm
In simpler times young boys and girls were not treated so very differently in many societies. I think I've read somewhere that in the 1700's and even 1800's in many anglo countries, boys and girls wore the same clothes and colors and hairstyles and were essentially treated more or less the same. Just kids.

Much more recent than that, maybe. I remember my great grandmother had a portrait photo of some children on her wall and when I viewed it as a child I was always puzzled by the fact that I couldn't really tell boy from girl by the way they were dressed. When I asked about it, I was simply told "in those days young children were simply dressed in children's clothes, they didn't dress differently until they were older". The portrait would have been from somewhere around 1900, probably.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: KL27x on August 24, 2018, 01:32:05 pm
I have one personal story, which is probably saying too much.

My first childhood friend was a girl. This was 1st grade, if I remember correctly. I would ride my bike to her house after school. Her family lived in the country with a huge wooded backyard. We rode bikes. We played with her shiny red wagon. We jumped on her trampoline. And we just laughed. All the time, laughing. I have vivid memories of this, just jumping on the trampoline and laughing.

Well, my parents put an end to it. I was giggling too much. I was not acting like a boy. And I never had a friend like that, again. And I never had fun like that again. In my family of boys, no one was having fun unless someone (or some thing) was being beaten, hurt, humiliated, or embarrassed. Fun didn't exist unless there was a winner and loser.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2018, 01:34:55 pm
Bravo! I tried to mention the Cinderella effect...

A tangentially related argument - why are there so few smokers in engineering? There is a disparity when comparing the population's smoking rate.

Ok Metrologist, it's clear you are now deliberately trying to derail this thread, please stop it.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2018, 02:49:50 pm
Ok Metrologist, it's clear you are now deliberately trying to derail this thread, please stop it.

That (smoking) topic was not sought for any such purpose. There are many such parallels to this topic that can be studied, which could have similar causes here. Isn't that part of how engineering study works?
I mentioned the Cinderella effect almost a month ago in post 23 of this topic. I have no such stamina nor desire to derail any topic here.
[/quote]

But that is what you continue to do after I've told you to stop it.

Quote
Where does that notion come from and  are you overly sensitized (an honest question given your position and situation)? There is no such intention to derail, but merely trying to open the blinders. I was merely reinforcing your request about the personal trans discussion and that tangent - it was brief stint if you look.

Fine, you've had your say, now please limit this thread to gender politics in engineering.

Quote
Of the two items I brought up, you could have chosen the latter to further expand the subject topic. Perhaps you desire to restrict the topic very narrowly to gender disparity and no other disparities in the engineering field? As a general topic, would that be acceptable, or only about women?

This thread is about gender politics engineering, I do not want it to degenerate into other topics, how is that unclear? I will not repeat myself.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: KL27x on August 24, 2018, 04:42:53 pm
My story was just an illustration of the gender roles we live in at a young age. And I am sure they are not representative of everyone else's household. Surely some are more enlightened or accepting than others. I don't think all boys or older brothers are necessarily overly competitive or sadistic, nor that girls "just want to have fun." But even at that age, I had the distinct feeling that if I were to do that with another boy, just laugh and have fun together in that way, it would be... uhhh... unacceptable. And it was never sexual. She had a red bike with a bell and a basket. I had a black BMX. She was never jealous of my bike, nor I of hers. I thought hers was kinda stupid, actually.  >:D

Quote
I can say that a simple comment about just about anything can sour one's perspective of it. There are reasons for that that are out of bounds to discuss. But suffice it to say that survival instincts make it very difficult to go against the grain of your equals (other little girls she plays with*).

I have a niece who started speaking in a deep voice and telling people her name is Bob at the age of maybe 5. In another time, perhaps, she would be playing together with other boys and girls and she would have no reason to even conceptualize this idea at her age.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 24, 2018, 04:50:44 pm
Anyway, to the OP's point about Design World putting women engineers on a pedestal seems to be addressing the issue at the wrong end, to the wrong crowd. Yes, I think it should be raised as an issue, then understood with open eyes, and addressed appropriately. This way is ugly and ineffective. Hence the OP, IMO.

It's not just the one article, as that in itself would never have raised an eyebrow. It's that this gender in STEM thing is being pushed literally everywhere in today's society - Universities, companies, governments, startup investment program, media, and the list continues.
Let's solve a "gender gap" in stem by discriminating based on gender  :palm:
I used to support these various women in tech initiatives, but after having really though about it, discrimination is not the way to do it and I can't in good faith support such program any more, as well intentioned as they are.
Wrong end of the stick indeed.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: KL27x on August 24, 2018, 05:10:10 pm
Quote
Hmm, if it was not related to separating boys/girls, then I understand less. You were stopped from jumping and laughing with a girl, but doing that with a boy would be out of the norm?
In my personal experience, yes. That would be out of the norm. Where and when I grew up, that would be called "gay," at least by my older brothers, and with a decidedly negative connotation.  :-//

Quote
Then, about Bob, what makes present day different that she would now conceptualize that? Is it just media influence?
I almost mentioned media in the last post, but I didn't really want to bring that up. I think like in your story, she is perhaps rebelling against the roles she is being pushed into, even at that young an age. And in simpler times, this perhaps wouldn't have happened, yet. For example, she is impeccably dressed and her hair is styled, and she is most obvious quite a beautiful girl. I'm sure she hears it all the time, how pretty she is. By this age, we have already excluded our children from certain experiences based on gender.

Why do we dress even our INFANTS differently? Part of the reason, back in the day, of dressing young children alike was the cost. Clothing was very expensive and laborious to make at one time. Children wore the hand me downs of older siblings, period. Today, clothes are cheap. Simple enough. But it affects how we talk and interact with other peoples babies. Do you compliment how pretty she is, or how strong he is?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: KL27x on August 24, 2018, 05:31:49 pm
Well, "strong" is not necessarily superficial. If you tie a child's self worth to "strength," that child may associate that with what he can do/accomplish. It implies he can overpower or beat other kids. Tying a child's self worth to being "pretty," well, you have to wonder that this might have a lasting effect later in life.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Sudo_apt-get_install_yum on August 24, 2018, 06:22:04 pm
Not to get too much into to politics but this has been going on for a long time at least in Sweden.

I remember as a kid age 10-18 they used to hold classes in programming and electronics for girls free of charge but never anything for boys not even paid ones. I was ~12 when getting into basic programming and I remember being denied entry to the programming workshops because I was a guy even though I really had an interest in the subject. It later turned out that there were too few people showing up so they closed the workshops.

When I was studying electrical engineering at university (I’m not done yet, I’m going back to school next fall) there was one girl studying the same, she later dropped out because she wasn’t interested in the subject, and I just think it boils down to this, that women don’t have the same interest as men and it angers me that people force it and try to make it seem natural.

It’s sad to see that women who actually are really good at their job and have a genuine interest in electronics and programming get headlines that focus more about their sex rather than there skill. I have one female coworker and she is a RF wiz but whenever she talks about RF in seminars for "normal people" people focus more on that she is a woman and so on but when were back in the office nobody really cares that she is a woman, the thing we all care about is that she is great with RF and a cool person.

All I have ever cared about when working with electronics/ studying them is your skill and how you are as a person and not what’s between your legs and most people that I’ve worked with or studies with share this. It has mostly been people from the outside (the media, politicians or political activist) that don’t share this and want it to be 50/50 just because of equality.


This is my experience, I’m pretty sure that I’m not the only one that has experienced this or similar things. I’m not here to argue with anybody or anger someone I’m here because I love electronics!  :)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on August 24, 2018, 11:40:47 pm
I am in a position to influence a little girl in her education and life's pursuits. She is intelligent and very fun to be with, to the extent you've illustrated. Earlier, she expressed interest in math/science fields and excelled in every subject, but the past two years all that has faded to rebellion. It is amazing to me - she will argue over having to do her math homework, yet toss that and rip through her assignment just to get it done, once she's exhausted her piece. It goes quickly and is aced. She has been pushed to AP math and is very upset about it. Her placement is a direct result of her innate ability, not desire.

Why has her loss of interest happened? This is an inflection point and I can observe things such as peers and those interactions. Also, electronics and social media have been introduced.

I think it is merely social conditioning that will steer her out of any kind of STEM role. I've seen it, it's not systemic gender discrimination in the engineering field that is causing this. There is no scholarship or other program that could possibly influence this trajectory.

I can say that a simple comment about just about anything can sour one's perspective of it. There are reasons for that that are out of bounds to discuss. But suffice it to say that survival instincts make it very difficult to go against the grain of your equals (other little girls she plays with*).

Maybe this rebellion will be temporary and something deeper will materialize in the next three years? There will be opportunity then again.

What can I do to influence that, to facilitate opportunity for another women in a STEM field?

You shouldn't necessarily do anything. It is not for you to decide what makes someone else happy. People should be free to do what they want to do, and to decide their own path in life.

Is the desire to have more women in STEM fields there to satisfy everyone else, or is it there to satisfy the women themselves?

We rightly condemn parents who force their children to study music, or do to gymnastics, when this is clearly for selfish reasons by the parents. Well it is no different to force children to study mathematics and science subjects, when again this is for selfish reasons by the rest of society.

Society should back off and let people do what they prefer.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Jeroen3 on August 24, 2018, 11:42:15 pm
When I was studying electrical engineering at university (I’m not done yet, I’m going back to school next fall) there was one girl studying the same, she later dropped out because she wasn’t interested in the subject, and I just think it boils down to this, that women don’t have the same interest as men and it angers me that people force it and try to make it seem natural.
The question is if the education has become tailored to men, or is there truly low motivation for the subject with women.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: NiHaoMike on August 25, 2018, 12:04:06 am
If there were more women than men in engineering, would we be discussing how to get more guys to be interested in engineering?

I have noticed that in the realm of engineering related TV, girls tend to achieve fame faster than the guys do. Visual appeal is probably a big reason why.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 25, 2018, 01:03:30 am
I don't think the visual appeal has much long term influence in boosting numbers. I suspect it's more the novelty of a woman who is actually into engineering. A lot of (male) engineers have struggled their whole lives to find women who have anything in common with them or their interests. I know when I was growing up it wasn't until I learned to develop (or fake) and interest in more "normal" stuff that girls would give me the time of day.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: John B on August 25, 2018, 06:33:57 am
If there were more women than men in engineering, would we be discussing how to get more guys to be interested in engineering?

I think if you look at any of the following fields: biological sciences, medicine, veterinary medicine, psychology, education, social sciences, social psuedosciences  ;D  etc etc, you will have your answer. Earlier in the thread I think I linked to a case of a private scholarship donor preferring a male applicant in a veterinary field where it's something like 90% female, and the screeching that ensued.

By the way, this is an older article, but not that old and still highly topical. It came across my path again and had to share:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-trial-to-improve-gender-equality-failing-study/8664888 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-30/bilnd-recruitment-trial-to-improve-gender-equality-failing-study/8664888)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 25, 2018, 02:55:41 pm
The point of this article seems to find that female names attract a higher rate of interview requests. In a male dominated field, no doubt. Men like to ogle the womens...

But since we have this issue, it seems interviews do not result in placement. Why is that?


It's because very few women apply. Of those that apply, a very high percentage get interviewed, but that still doesn't offset the fact that ~5% or less of applicants are women.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on August 25, 2018, 07:18:18 pm
I'm hardly an absolutist libertarian, but yes, it's very nice and simple: delay puberty. There's no harm in doing that.

There are no long term cohort studies studies to prove this, especially not for the group who would have changed their mind left alone (the group most in danger of active harm).

I think this shows an important aspect of differences of opinion between liberals and conservatives. Both will of course claim science is on their side, but liberals are more prone to declaring that physical reality must be on their side ... there is no alternative. Women must be as capable in cerebral jobs as men, if there is a discrepancy it must be because of (structural) discrimination.
How is deciding on what medical treatment to give or not, libertarian or conservative?

Whether to perform surgery, delay puberty or not and what age to do so, is purely a medical decision, based on what's best for the patient and should have nothing to do with politics. Granted, any physical medical intervention carries risks and potential benefits, but that's for the doctors and patent to decide, no one else.

The transgender issue is very relevant to this debate. As mentioned previously, trans people have seen the world from both sides: both male and female, so have both perspectives. Another thing which interests me is, in most cases, transgender people knew they were different from a very young age. This adds weight to the argument that males and females are psychologically inherently different. Despite society pushing transgender people to behave in the way dictated by their physical gender, they feel unhappy and associate more with the other gender.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 25, 2018, 09:39:38 pm
Whether to perform surgery, delay puberty or not and what age to do so, is purely a medical decision, based on what's best for the patient and should have nothing to do with politics.
That's a profoundly naive claim.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 25, 2018, 09:42:11 pm
What that means is that if you have 100 women apply and 100 males apply, there will be more females interviewed. I suggested that is because of male perversion...
If 100 women and 100 men applied there probably wouldn't be a higher percentage of women than men called for interview,. Its mostly that female applicants are so rare that most female applicants get called for interview. Its not perversion. Its the novelty factor.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: stj on August 25, 2018, 10:14:59 pm
you cant change somebody's sex, you can only castrate them and drug them.
that's no way to deal with a psycological problem that may be caused by poisons in the food or enviroment.

i would be interested to see the suicide-rate of people who have been mutilated by sick medical "professionals" vs the population in general.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on August 25, 2018, 10:27:28 pm
you cant change somebody's sex, you can only castrate them and drug them.
that's no way to deal with a physological problem that may be caused by poisons in the food or enviroment.

i would be interested to see the suicide-rate of people who have been mutilated by sick medical "professionals" vs the population in general.

Transgender people have been around, since the dawn of humanity, so it's unlikely due to poisons in food and environment. Fortunately, as with anything, modern medicine can help. Yes there are cases where medical intervention is harmful, but that's the same with any condition.


Whether to perform surgery, delay puberty or not and what age to do so, is purely a medical decision, based on what's best for the patient and should have nothing to do with politics.
That's a profoundly naive claim.
How is that naive?

In areas such as the UK where there's a public healthcare system, unfortunately politicians do get too involved with medical decisions, because money is tight, but other than that politicians should have no business in deciding what treatment someone gets. As with any medical condition, early intervention normally works out cheaper in the long term, because long term complications are often far more costly.

What that means is that if you have 100 women apply and 100 males apply, there will be more females interviewed. I suggested that is because of male perversion...
If 100 women and 100 men applied there probably wouldn't be a higher percentage of women than men called for interview,. Its mostly that female applicants are so rare that most female applicants get called for interview. Its not perversion. Its the novelty factor.
I think you might have made a mistake with the wording of the first sentence. Yes, if there were an equal number of female and male applicants for an engineering position, more of the women would be called for interview, than men.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 26, 2018, 12:01:44 am
I know it's too much to ask, but can we try and talk about gender politics in engineering perhaps?

Does it really matter if a thread goes off topic? I can see it's a problem if a thread is derailed by people fighting or someone hijacking it and the original poster doesn't get their question answered as a result, but if the topic changes and the discussion remains largely civil and interesting where's the harm?

Don't get me wrong, I accept you make the rules around here and am not expecting you to change them. I just want to understand your reasoning.

The trouble with that is trying to define what "gender" is, as opposed to sex. It is hard to know.

I do know that many companies have specific "women in engineering" initiatives and support groups. I know that at least some female colleagues think that it is inherently much harder for women to succeed as engineers in the workplace than men.

What I observe is that some of the personality traits thought typical of men tend to backfire when women try to copy them. For example, what is "assertiveness" in men can be seen as "bossiness" in women. The natural antidote to that is that women should use guile and persuasiveness to achieve their goals. In other words, women in the workplace should be women, and should not try to emulate what they think men would do. (Assertiveness without appropriate persuasive arguments doesn't work for men either.)
It works the other way round too. Men who are sensitive and show their emotions, especially ones such as regret, guilt and sadness are considered to be wimps and pussies.

In some respects society would be better if it didn't tie emotions and personality traits too much to gender, but it could be inherent in human nature i.e. instinct.


I always wondered that could you really have a society like Vulcan on star trek where everyone is logical and not petty and revengeful?

I know from personal experience that assertive women in the workplace both those that succeed and those who don't, the ones that do seem to be "bold and confident" the ones that don't seem "bitchy and bossy". It also seems like these women have to overcompensate for the fact they are women. No one likes this and it creates a stereo type. A woman can use the exact same traits to climb the ladder as a male coworker but often she won't be liked. I had the hardest time with these women because of my intelligence and lack of fear to point out if they were wrong. Coincidentally there was a greater then 50% chance she had a hyphenated last name. And I would be super careful not to make them feel intellectually intimidated. Now those same women don't see me as a threat as much but some still do.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 26, 2018, 12:45:46 am
It’s sad to see that women who actually are really good at their job and have a genuine interest in electronics and programming get headlines that focus more about their sex rather than there skill.

I don't see that ever ending really, any media story is going to involve an angle.
Does anyone think that if Jeri Ellsworth wasn't female, self taught, and drives race cars, but was instead a ugly boring nerdy male MIT grad that those stories would have been written about creating the Joystick for example?
Or would the owner of a hobby kit business called Adafruit have been on the front cover of wired if she wasn't a spunky looking female with pink hair and lip ring? (extra juicy fact that she has an MIT engineering masters)
It mostly doesn't matter how good you are or what you have achieved, other angles like being a female in tech, good looks, having some hard luck story, or doing crazy things etc are almost certainly going to win the day for media coverage.
Looks doesn't just apply to women either, an attractive outgoing guy in tech will make the newspaper headlines over some ugly obese recluse doing exactly the same thing.
Just having a cool name will do it too. Kim dot com doesn't stay in the news because he's attractive, he's got a cool name, does crazy stuff, and has a big mouth = media gold.
It can be as simple a always wearing a pink suit, if you stand out you'll get the attention.

Mark Suster summed up Meredit Perry and uBeam nicely:
https://bothsidesofthetable.com/what-is-it-like-to-wake-up-and-have-the-press-ready-to-torpedo-your-business-351f27ca6d67

Quote
At heart Meredith is a nerd and loves the most inane, geeky things to do with space or scientists or technology theory. Were she a shy, pimply, awkward male engineer with a pocket protector she would fit an archetype that would make sense to observers. But she’s not. She’s confident, communicative, outspoken, young and blonde.

Guess how he got suckered out of his $15M  ;D
He knows she would attract the media, and that would be good for his investment. And it's not because shes' a good technical orator.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 26, 2018, 12:51:10 am
When I was studying electrical engineering at university (I’m not done yet, I’m going back to school next fall) there was one girl studying the same, she later dropped out because she wasn’t interested in the subject, and I just think it boils down to this, that women don’t have the same interest as men and it angers me that people force it and try to make it seem natural.
The question is if the education has become tailored to men, or is there truly low motivation for the subject with women.

How could engineering education be "tailored to men"? It's just engineering, about as far removed from gender as you can get.
IME, 95% of the people I studied with seemed bored witless studying engineering. They obviously did it because their parents wanted then to, they got the marks for it, or they couldn't think of anything else to study etc, anything but having a real interest in it.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 26, 2018, 12:55:46 am
If there were more women than men in engineering, would we be discussing how to get more guys to be interested in engineering?

I think if you look at any of the following fields: biological sciences, medicine, veterinary medicine, psychology, education, social sciences, social psuedosciences  ;D  etc etc, you will have your answer. Earlier in the thread I think I linked to a case of a private scholarship donor preferring a male applicant in a veterinary field where it's something like 90% female, and the screeching that ensued.

But you have to admit, it's quite rare, gets almost no media attention, and doesn't exactly send every university and company to hire full time staff and create programs devoted addressing a lack of males in any field.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 26, 2018, 01:01:25 am
If 100 women and 100 men applied there probably wouldn't be a higher percentage of women than men called for interview,. Its mostly that female applicants are so rare that most female applicants get called for interview. Its not perversion. Its the novelty factor.

I've done that myself.
Be it a (relatively rare) female applicant, or some other novelty or interesting aspect. Sometimes it's just something interesting they have worked on I wanted to hear about it.
Heck I had a mermaid apply for my EEVblog logistics job, an actual mermaid  :o (she didn't get the job, but, you know, a mermaid...)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 26, 2018, 01:03:37 am
NOTE: Again, I've removed some off-topic posts.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Mr. Scram on August 26, 2018, 01:15:38 am
I've done that myself.
Be it a (relatively rare) female applicant, or some other novelty or interesting aspect. Sometimes it's just something interesting they have worked on I wanted to hear about it.
Heck I had a mermaid apply for my EEVblog logistics job, an actual mermaid  :o (she didn't get the job, but, you know, a mermaid...)
That might be an idea. Next time I'll pitch myself as a merman. I'll let you lot know how that worked out.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 26, 2018, 07:15:12 am
Whether to perform surgery, delay puberty or not and what age to do so, is purely a medical decision, based on what's best for the patient and should have nothing to do with politics.
That's a profoundly naive claim.
How is that naive?

In areas such as the UK where there's a public healthcare system, unfortunately politicians do get too involved with medical decisions, because money is tight, but other than that politicians should have no business in deciding what treatment someone gets. As with any medical condition, early intervention normally works out cheaper in the long term, because long term complications are often far more costly.
Purely medical? Really? Family, crazy faith issues, and a whole mass of other complexities don't come into it?

The big issue right now is things are being railroaded, with little research to back up what is being pushed. It looks like most long term researchers find that a high percentage of children who show cross gender behaviour as they are growing up settle to the gender they appeared to be at birth by the time they are adults. Early intervention seems like a brutal approach, especially when you consider the high suicide rate of people whose gender has been physically altered.
What that means is that if you have 100 women apply and 100 males apply, there will be more females interviewed. I suggested that is because of male perversion...
If 100 women and 100 men applied there probably wouldn't be a higher percentage of women than men called for interview,. Its mostly that female applicants are so rare that most female applicants get called for interview. Its not perversion. Its the novelty factor.
I think you might have made a mistake with the wording of the first sentence. Yes, if there were an equal number of female and male applicants for an engineering position, more of the women would be called for interview, than men.
If 100 women and 100 men applied today the women would most probably get more interviews than the men, but that would be a freak occurance. If getting 100 female CVs and 100 male CVs were something that really happened it wouldn't be a normal thing  to see a bunch of CVs from women, and, unless there is insidious politics at work, the CVs would be picked for interview on merit.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on August 26, 2018, 08:09:46 am
Whether to perform surgery, delay puberty or not and what age to do so, is purely a medical decision, based on what's best for the patient and should have nothing to do with politics.
That's a profoundly naive claim.
How is that naive?

In areas such as the UK where there's a public healthcare system, unfortunately politicians do get too involved with medical decisions, because money is tight, but other than that politicians should have no business in deciding what treatment someone gets. As with any medical condition, early intervention normally works out cheaper in the long term, because long term complications are often far more costly.
Purely medical? Really? Family, crazy faith issues, and a whole mass of other complexities don't come into it?

The big issue right now is things are being railroaded, with little research to back up what is being pushed. It looks like most long term researchers find that a high percentage of children who show cross gender behaviour as they are growing up settle to the gender they appeared to be at birth by the time they are adults. Early intervention seems like a brutal approach, especially when you consider the high suicide rate of people whose gender has been physically altered.
I'm not sure if it was you, but in some of the posts that were removed, it seemed there might be some confusion between intersex and transgender. They're totally different things!

Intersex is a physical anomaly when child is born with an undefined physical gender, i.e. they may have both male and female characteristics such as a penis and a vagina.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex)

Transgender is when someone is born with a physically normal male or female body, but is psychologically, either the opposite gender or doesn't identify with either gender.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender)

The two cases need to be treated differently. Mistakes have been made in the past. The most common ones being performing surgery on an intersex infant to make it a girl or boy, or refusing treatment (this isn't necessarily surgery, it could be pills to delay puberty or just counselling) to a transgender person, until well into adulthood. Both often result in relatively poor outcomes.

Note to Dave, I'm aware this isn't quite on topic, but I wanted to clear up this matter. This will be my final comment on this.
Quote
What that means is that if you have 100 women apply and 100 males apply, there will be more females interviewed. I suggested that is because of male perversion...
If 100 women and 100 men applied there probably wouldn't be a higher percentage of women than men called for interview,. Its mostly that female applicants are so rare that most female applicants get called for interview. Its not perversion. Its the novelty factor.
I think you might have made a mistake with the wording of the first sentence. Yes, if there were an equal number of female and male applicants for an engineering position, more of the women would be called for interview, than men.
If 100 women and 100 men applied today the women would most probably get more interviews than the men, but that would be a freak occurance. If getting 100 female CVs and 100 male CVs were something that really happened it wouldn't be a normal thing  to see a bunch of CVs from women, and, unless there is insidious politics at work, the CVs would be picked for interview on merit.
I agree. I doubt there's ever a perfect 50:50 split in the male:female ratio of applicants for any job.

Going back to the nature vs nurture debate and gender rolls. There has been some research conducted on primates which as revealed that males prefer human boy's toys such as cars and females prefer dolls and soft toys.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/science-environment-29418230/monkey-test-shows-gender-choices (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/science-environment-29418230/monkey-test-shows-gender-choices)
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/ (https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13596-male-monkeys-prefer-boys-toys/)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: lordvader88 on August 26, 2018, 07:28:14 pm
If I worked somewhere and someone had to come fix electronics, I'd hope it was a hot girl, and then we'd talk about electronics and fall in love.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on August 26, 2018, 08:07:04 pm
Bravo! I tried to mention the Cinderella effect...

A tangentially related argument - why are there so few smokers in engineering? There is a disparity when comparing the population's smoking rate.

Quote
Maralani’s study shows that educational disparities in adult smoking are anchored to experiences from early in life. School policies, peers, and expectations about the future measured at ages 13 to 15 predict smoking at ages 26 to 29. “This means that in order to reduce educational inequalities in smoking, we have to figure out exactly which characteristics before age 12 predict that a child will both not take up smoking and stay committed to school,” Maralani said.

https://news.yale.edu/2014/05/20/why-don-t-highly-educated-smoke

Somehow I am sure nobody will care. So why care otherwise?


I have noticed that. At a big company many of the smokers will be from the sales department. The other class of smoker tends to be the guys in the warehouse or blue color maintenance workers.

In the Korean culture almost all Korean men smoke and the women that smoke tend to be what we would call "white trash". The men that don't smoke tend to be feminine not always but many I have seen.

Kids do what their parents do. Kid whos parents smoke can steal them and also won't get caught since their parents can't smell it. I know in jr high I thought smoking as cool because it made you look older and a rulebreaker. It turns out to be the hardest addiction to stop ever. Although I never started smoking until I was in my 30's because we could smoke in the office and there wasn't much else to do. Luckily I started vaping. We are going to see a huge drop in cancer in the next ten to twenty years because of vaping.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 27, 2018, 01:26:51 am
Bravo! I tried to mention the Cinderella effect...

A tangentially related argument - why are there so few smokers in engineering? There is a disparity when comparing the population's smoking rate.

Quote
Maralani’s study shows that educational disparities in adult smoking are anchored to experiences from early in life. School policies, peers, and expectations about the future measured at ages 13 to 15 predict smoking at ages 26 to 29. “This means that in order to reduce educational inequalities in smoking, we have to figure out exactly which characteristics before age 12 predict that a child will both not take up smoking and stay committed to school,” Maralani said.

https://news.yale.edu/2014/05/20/why-don-t-highly-educated-smoke

Somehow I am sure nobody will care. So why care otherwise?


I have noticed that. At a big company many of the smokers will be from the sales department. The other class of smoker tends to be the guys in the warehouse or blue color maintenance workers.
Sales people and doctors have some of the highest rates of smoking among educated people. They also have some of the highest suicide rates. They also show some of the highest levels of stress. These things might be related.
In the Korean culture almost all Korean men smoke and the women that smoke tend to be what we would call "white trash". The men that don't smoke tend to be feminine not always but many I have seen.

Kids do what their parents do. Kid whos parents smoke can steal them and also won't get caught since their parents can't smell it. I know in jr high I thought smoking as cool because it made you look older and a rulebreaker. It turns out to be the hardest addiction to stop ever. Although I never started smoking until I was in my 30's because we could smoke in the office and there wasn't much else to do. Luckily I started vaping. We are going to see a huge drop in cancer in the next ten to twenty years because of vaping.
Most of the people I know in Korea are male engineers. Few of them smoke.

My father's generation in the UK mostly smoked, but most of my generation doesn't. I haven't met many old educated people in China who smoke, but an awful lot of middle aged ones who do. I don't see much evidence of children following their parent's habits. I think peer pressure is a much bigger factor.

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on August 27, 2018, 02:21:20 am
I've wondered why that is. My friends own a machine shop and almost everyone who works there smokes. Seems like I read somewhere that a much larger percentage of poor people smoke. It never really made much sense to me since at least in the US smoking is a very expensive habit, a person can pretty easily feed themselves on the cost of a pack a day. Even completely ignoring the health issues it's a very poor financial decision.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 27, 2018, 02:36:11 am
I've wondered why that is. My friends own a machine shop and almost everyone who works there smokes. Seems like I read somewhere that a much larger percentage of poor people smoke. It never really made much sense to me since at least in the US smoking is a very expensive habit, a person can pretty easily feed themselves on the cost of a pack a day. Even completely ignoring the health issues it's a very poor financial decision.
Alcohol is expensive, and people with a low income drink more too. A low income creates a lot of stress. Don't be too surprised if coping mechanisms cost enough to exacerbate the effects of a low income.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Mr. Scram on August 27, 2018, 02:37:10 am
I've wondered why that is. My friends own a machine shop and almost everyone who works there smokes. Seems like I read somewhere that a much larger percentage of poor people smoke. It never really made much sense to me since at least in the US smoking is a very expensive habit, a person can pretty easily feed themselves on the cost of a pack a day. Even completely ignoring the health issues it's a very poor financial decision.
It's an education thing, bar a few exceptions. More highly educated people tend to smoke less. Having less money doesn't always correlate to better financial decisions.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 27, 2018, 03:26:56 am
No, I think that those things correlate but are not causally related: I think they are both symptoms of a common cause.

Why? Because everyone knows smoking is bad for you. The question is, why do some people do it anyway?

Consider that smoking among gays, for example, is about twice that of the population at large. Even higher among transgender people. This supports coppice's "coping mechanism" theory.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 27, 2018, 03:32:17 am
I've wondered why that is. My friends own a machine shop and almost everyone who works there smokes. Seems like I read somewhere that a much larger percentage of poor people smoke. It never really made much sense to me since at least in the US smoking is a very expensive habit, a person can pretty easily feed themselves on the cost of a pack a day. Even completely ignoring the health issues it's a very poor financial decision.
It's an education thing, bar a few exceptions. More highly educated people tend to smoke less. Having less money doesn't always correlate to better financial decisions.
Doctors have the longest education, with the highest entrance requirements for college. They also know better than any other group just how damaging smoking and drinking are. Despite this they exhibit high levels of smoking and drinking. I think the correlation of low smoking and drinking with a good education is because well educated people tend to have less stressful lives.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: mtdoc on August 27, 2018, 04:13:03 am

Doctors have the longest education, with the highest entrance requirements for college. They also know better than any other group just how damaging smoking and drinking are. Despite this they exhibit high levels of smoking and drinking.

Not true in the US - at least for smoking - where doctors smoke at much lower rates  (https://media.jamanetwork.com/news-item/study-examines-prevalence-of-smoking-among-health-care-professionals/)  than the general population : 2% as of 2011. The smoking rate of the US general population   recently hit an all time low of 14% (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/smoking-rate-in-u-s-hits-all-time-low/).

For alcohol use, you need to distinguish between safe levels of consumption (generally considered to be 2 drinks or less per day for males) and unsafe levels. There are no safe levels of smoking.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 27, 2018, 05:06:35 am

Doctors have the longest education, with the highest entrance requirements for college. They also know better than any other group just how damaging smoking and drinking are. Despite this they exhibit high levels of smoking and drinking.

Not true in the US - at least for smoking - where doctors smoke at much lower rates  (https://media.jamanetwork.com/news-item/study-examines-prevalence-of-smoking-among-health-care-professionals/)  than the general population : 2% as of 2011. The smoking rate of the US general population   recently hit an all time low of 14% (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/smoking-rate-in-u-s-hits-all-time-low/).

For alcohol use, you need to distinguish between safe levels of consumption (generally considered to be 2 drinks or less per day for males) and unsafe levels. There are no safe levels of smoking.
Interesting. I based what I said on European figures from the 80s, which was the last time I really looked at this. It seems the picture has changed quite a lot. Smoking rates among nurses are still very high across Europe. Doctors in a number of European countries still have smoking rates way above the national average, but in other countries, like the UK, smoking among doctors has greatly reduced.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: NiHaoMike on August 27, 2018, 05:07:12 am
With marijuana being legalized in many places, there are claims that smoking marijuana doesn't increase cancer risk. If that is true (I doubt it), I would guess it would be the anti-cancer effects of marijuana counteracting the cancer causing effects of the smoke.

Trying to get back on topic, one of my friends, who was a medical student, told about how a few of her female friends (who were also medical students) did "biohacking" on themselves to win bets. They would binge drink at a bar, then go into the bathroom and inject themselves with an IV drip so they pee out the alcohol before its effects set in. (Obviously, don't try that yourself because there are so many things that can go wrong.) Those girls were always eager for more while the guys who tried to match them drink for drink end up really drunk.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: mtdoc on August 27, 2018, 05:24:42 am
With marijuana being legalized in many places, there are claims that smoking marijuana doesn't increase cancer risk.

The available date is mixed, suggesting that if there is an effect (and I suspect there is) it is of much smaller magnitude than for tobacco.

Anectdotally, I can say that in 20 years of medicine, I've never cared for a person with a marijuana caused illness - and for the past 15 years I've been in an area (NW Washington state) were marijuana use is very high - and now legal.

On the other hand, I've cared for many thousands with tobacco caused illness, with dozens of those dying at an early age from lung cancer.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Mr. Scram on August 27, 2018, 05:51:56 am
Interesting. I based what I said on European figures from the 80s, which was the last time I really looked at this. It seems the picture has changed quite a lot. Smoking rates among nurses are still very high across Europe. Doctors in a number of European countries still have smoking rates way above the national average, but in other countries, like the UK, smoking among doctors has greatly reduced.
Can you post numbers and the associated sources?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 27, 2018, 07:00:18 am
Interesting. I based what I said on European figures from the 80s, which was the last time I really looked at this. It seems the picture has changed quite a lot. Smoking rates among nurses are still very high across Europe. Doctors in a number of European countries still have smoking rates way above the national average, but in other countries, like the UK, smoking among doctors has greatly reduced.
Can you post numbers and the associated sources?
Just try Googling. That's what I did after mtdoc said few doctors in the US smoke. There is plenty of information at a number of fairly up to date web sites, all pretty much agreeing. They all seem to point to Italy as being particularly bad for its high rate of smoking doctors - nearly a half.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Mr. Scram on August 27, 2018, 08:06:57 am
Just try Googling. That's what I did after mtdoc said few doctors in the US smoke. There is plenty of information at a number of fairly up to date web sites, all pretty much agreeing. They all seem to point to Italy as being particularly bad for its high rate of smoking doctors - nearly a half.
Well, it tends to make discussions a lot more factual and with less tempers flaring when sources are mentioned. It prevents people from unknowingly using different sources and getting into nasty arguments because both feel like they're correct.

There's also the burden of proof that lies upon the claimant and maybe nettiquette. :)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 27, 2018, 08:15:21 am
Just try Googling. That's what I did after mtdoc said few doctors in the US smoke. There is plenty of information at a number of fairly up to date web sites, all pretty much agreeing. They all seem to point to Italy as being particularly bad for its high rate of smoking doctors - nearly a half.
Well, it tends to make discussions a lot more factual and with less tempers flaring when sources are mentioned. It prevents people from unknowingly using different sources and getting into nasty arguments because both feel like they're correct.

There's also the burden of proof that lies upon the claimant and maybe nettiquette. :)
In general I agree with you, but the flood of nonconflicting material from a simple Google search seems to make sourcing a moot point in this case.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 27, 2018, 09:35:50 am
Again, can we please stop on the off-topic stuff. A whole pages of posts on smoking in not needed.
This thread seems to be a magnet for all sorts of social issues.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 27, 2018, 08:04:13 pm
It does. That said, it’s a fascinating thread. The way engineers discuss these topics is not the same as the way “normal” people do, and that’s refreshing.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 27, 2018, 09:35:08 pm
It does. That said, it’s a fascinating thread. The way engineers discuss these topics is not the same as the way “normal” people do, and that’s refreshing.

Because engineers are inherently linear thinkers... oops, sorry, that's Meredith Parry's take ;D
Engineers are blunt and honest. Take James Damore, the infamous Google software engineer fired for his perfectly fine and well researched memo. Google made the mistake of sending an engineer to a gender bias training course and then asking for feedback. The got the perfect example of researched and blunt feedback you'd expect from an engineer. Google clearly doesn't understand engineers  :palm:
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on August 27, 2018, 09:45:09 pm
I actually think that for the most part, Google understands engineers really well. I think it was just PR that forced that reaction.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on August 27, 2018, 10:05:45 pm
I actually think that for the most part, Google understands engineers really well. I think it was just PR that forced that reaction.

It was actually a systemic culture within Google that reported the memo and reacted to it in the way they did fro man internal perspective. The PR was reactionary public relation crisis management.
From a PR standpoint Google actually had to fire him, as just like any modern huge corporation they have to have a "diversity" agenda, program, etc so they have a very public gender and diversity driven public profile (of their own doing). When you have that, and a huge PR nightmare about a diversity memo that rightly points out the errors in such a program and company approach, you have to either admit he was right and adjust your entire company perception and program of gender and diversity, or you double down and fire him. Easy corporate decision. Piss-weak of course, but easy.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on August 28, 2018, 01:31:29 am
I actually think that for the most part, Google understands engineers really well. I think it was just PR that forced that reaction.

It was actually a systemic culture within Google that reported the memo and reacted to it in the way they did fro man internal perspective. The PR was reactionary public relation crisis management.
From a PR standpoint Google actually had to fire him, as just like any modern huge corporation they have to have a "diversity" agenda, program, etc so they have a very public gender and diversity driven public profile (of their own doing). When you have that, and a huge PR nightmare about a diversity memo that rightly points out the errors in such a program and company approach, you have to either admit he was right and adjust your entire company perception and program of gender and diversity, or you double down and fire him. Easy corporate decision. Piss-weak of course, but easy.
They fired James Damore, but they haven't fired their CEO who recently said exactly what James Damore said, and just as bluntly.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on August 28, 2018, 02:48:18 am
It does. That said, it’s a fascinating thread. The way engineers discuss these topics is not the same as the way “normal” people do, and that’s refreshing.

Because engineers are inherently linear thinkers... oops, sorry, that's Meredith Parry's take ;D
Engineers are blunt and honest. Take James Damore, the infamous Google software engineer fired for his perfectly fine and well researched memo. Google made the mistake of sending an engineer to a gender bias training course and then asking for feedback. The got the perfect example of researched and blunt feedback you'd expect from an engineer. Google clearly doesn't understand engineers  :palm:

even more ironic since Google is in the business of extracting trends from big piles of data

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 01, 2018, 08:37:27 am
[...] you're something else, not a woman [...]
[...] That's so ignorant to say in 2018 [...]

Look: https://youtu.be/Ddzf9Mm4hdY?t=2m35s
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on September 01, 2018, 09:48:14 am
A potentially interesting data point, I started a new tech job (software) very recently and was surprised to find that my team has slightly more women than men, being a white male I'm actually a minority. Seems like a great group of people, once I know everyone a bit better I'll see if I can find out what attracted them to the industry. It seems also that software has managed to attract a larger percentage of woman than most of the hardware related stuff. My last job had a larger hardware component and all of the EEs were men, however the engineer that did all of the hardcore encryption stuff was a woman, as well as the developer of all of the back end web portal stuff, probably two of the most indispensable people there.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: TerraHertz on September 01, 2018, 11:47:34 am
I know it's too much to ask, but can we try and talk about gender politics in engineering perhaps?

Does Star Wars count as engineering?

https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/9bvdxu/i_dont_understand_how_was_there_not_a_single/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/9bvdxu/i_dont_understand_how_was_there_not_a_single/)
Apparently The Force now wears panties. As opposed to not having anything to do with gender at all.

youtube  /watch?v=3r6kKn5_hUc
The Hard Truth About Hypergamy | Rollo Tomassi and Stefan Molyneux
Relevant to gender politics infecting *everything*.

Some may have the impression I like politics. On the contrary I loathe it. The problem is so much of modern political ideology is insane and just keeps pushing to intrude into areas where it has no place. It's so evil one just has to take a stand whatever the cost.
For instance, I'm currently grappling with whether to accept an offer of a paid part-time engineering position that would be extremely interesting. And I could do with the money. BUT... the person offering it is a declared communist and hates Jordan Peterson. Not auspicious. I suspect there'll be more incompatibilities and I'd find his political views hard to work with. Still probing. Indecision...
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on September 01, 2018, 05:19:15 pm
If it's interesting work and it comes with a paycheck, who cares about the boss's political views? If they bring it up just say you don't think it's appropriate to discuss politics and religion at work.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on September 02, 2018, 01:13:48 am
[...] you're something else, not a woman [...]
[...] That's so ignorant to say in 2018 [...]

Look: https://youtu.be/Ddzf9Mm4hdY?t=2m35s
Just because you're not alone doesn't make it any less offensive or ignorant.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on September 04, 2018, 07:40:18 am
Bravo! I tried to mention the Cinderella effect...

A tangentially related argument - why are there so few smokers in engineering? There is a disparity when comparing the population's smoking rate.

Quote
Maralani’s study shows that educational disparities in adult smoking are anchored to experiences from early in life. School policies, peers, and expectations about the future measured at ages 13 to 15 predict smoking at ages 26 to 29. “This means that in order to reduce educational inequalities in smoking, we have to figure out exactly which characteristics before age 12 predict that a child will both not take up smoking and stay committed to school,” Maralani said.

https://news.yale.edu/2014/05/20/why-don-t-highly-educated-smoke

Somehow I am sure nobody will care. So why care otherwise?


I have noticed that. At a big company many of the smokers will be from the sales department. The other class of smoker tends to be the guys in the warehouse or blue color maintenance workers.
Sales people and doctors have some of the highest rates of smoking among educated people. They also have some of the highest suicide rates. They also show some of the highest levels of stress. These things might be related.
In the Korean culture almost all Korean men smoke and the women that smoke tend to be what we would call "white trash". The men that don't smoke tend to be feminine not always but many I have seen.

Kids do what their parents do. Kid whos parents smoke can steal them and also won't get caught since their parents can't smell it. I know in jr high I thought smoking as cool because it made you look older and a rulebreaker. It turns out to be the hardest addiction to stop ever. Although I never started smoking until I was in my 30's because we could smoke in the office and there wasn't much else to do. Luckily I started vaping. We are going to see a huge drop in cancer in the next ten to twenty years because of vaping.
Most of the people I know in Korea are male engineers. Few of them smoke.

My father's generation in the UK mostly smoked, but most of my generation doesn't. I haven't met many old educated people in China who smoke, but an awful lot of middle aged ones who do. I don't see much evidence of children following their parent's habits. I think peer pressure is a much bigger factor.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on September 04, 2018, 07:44:59 am
Bravo! I tried to mention the Cinderella effect...

A tangentially related argument - why are there so few smokers in engineering? There is a disparity when comparing the population's smoking rate.

Quote
Maralani’s study shows that educational disparities in adult smoking are anchored to experiences from early in life. School policies, peers, and expectations about the future measured at ages 13 to 15 predict smoking at ages 26 to 29. “This means that in order to reduce educational inequalities in smoking, we have to figure out exactly which characteristics before age 12 predict that a child will both not take up smoking and stay committed to school,” Maralani said.

https://news.yale.edu/2014/05/20/why-don-t-highly-educated-smoke

Somehow I am sure nobody will care. So why care otherwise?


I have noticed that. At a big company many of the smokers will be from the sales department. The other class of smoker tends to be the guys in the warehouse or blue color maintenance workers.
Sales people and doctors have some of the highest rates of smoking among educated people. They also have some of the highest suicide rates. They also show some of the highest levels of stress. These things might be related.
In the Korean culture almost all Korean men smoke and the women that smoke tend to be what we would call "white trash". The men that don't smoke tend to be feminine not always but many I have seen.

Kids do what their parents do. Kid whos parents smoke can steal them and also won't get caught since their parents can't smell it. I know in jr high I thought smoking as cool because it made you look older and a rulebreaker. It turns out to be the hardest addiction to stop ever. Although I never started smoking until I was in my 30's because we could smoke in the office and there wasn't much else to do. Luckily I started vaping. We are going to see a huge drop in cancer in the next ten to twenty years because of vaping.
Most of the people I know in Korea are male engineers. Few of them smoke.

My father's generation in the UK mostly smoked, but most of my generation doesn't. I haven't met many old educated people in China who smoke, but an awful lot of middle aged ones who do. I don't see much evidence of children following their parent's habits. I think peer pressure is a much bigger factor.

At my high school in the 90's which was a mix of wealth 1% parents all the way down to people on benefits. With a majority middle class I would see almost all kids whos parents smoked then they smoked. Some of the smarter kids who were going somewhere in life who had poor parents usually hated smoking.


I remember my best friend who's mother was a waitress at a seafood restaurant (higher tips but not crazy) and his father a mediocre mechanic and kind of an idiot. Had an OK sized three bedroom house with land and above ground pool. Can you imagine her working at applebees and him at pepboys in 2018 and owning a house? No way. They would be in a one bed room apt in the shitty section of town.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: KL27x on September 04, 2018, 11:12:54 am
Quote
Just because you're not alone doesn't make it any less offensive or ignorant.
I wouldn't call this guy George's compadre. Barring any knowledge of him outside of this video, he is not offensive. He is merely of the opinion that the legislative branch should not be involved in mandating which pronoun you must use to refer to someone. He had stated that he personally has no problem with referring to a trans woman as she or a trans man as he, just that is should not be a matter for lawmakers and judges.

Since there is no law specifically about it, it is not illegal to call George "she," since as far as I can tell, she has two X chromosomes. Maybe if she provides evidence beyond a screen name, she can change my mind.

One part of the guy's argument that is offensive is he says a woman can have babies. There are a lot of genetic females who have had a hysterectomy or have cystic fibrosis or are prepubertal or post-menopausal. So... what are these people!?!?! Damnation!

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on September 05, 2018, 10:40:12 am
I took this online gender test and simply answered the questions honestly according to my immediate preferences. I got the result pictured below  ;D

I know it's nothing to take too seriously, but I do remain to be convinced that gender has much to do with sex, other than stereotypical associations. If there is a serious discussion to be had, it is about stereotypes.

https://www.playbuzz.com/item/f08b4ea6-8640-4c73-bca8-03d1a1edc029 (https://www.playbuzz.com/item/f08b4ea6-8640-4c73-bca8-03d1a1edc029)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Eka on September 05, 2018, 12:55:39 pm
That color test is bonkers. The colors one likes are very influenced by one's environment as one grew up.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: TerraHertz on September 06, 2018, 10:23:13 am
I took this online gender test ...
https://www.playbuzz.com/item/f08b4ea6-8640-4c73-bca8-03d1a1edc029 (https://www.playbuzz.com/item/f08b4ea6-8640-4c73-bca8-03d1a1edc029)
Quote
You are 90% female, 10% male
You have a big heart, an open mind and you don't mind making the harsh decisions for the betterment of the people around you. You are creative, emotional, spiritual and gifted in every area you choose to explore. Like the great Beyonce once said - who runs the world? GIRLS!!!

That text is incredibly gender biased and offensive. Are all those characteristics supposed to be female traits, and the opposites are male? Good grief. I think that was written by a flaming anti-male feminist.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on September 11, 2018, 02:54:44 am
[...] you're something else, not a woman [...]
[...] That's so ignorant to say in 2018 [...]


UKIP Hey why is the British pound not worth 1.50? UKIP. Where did all that money go that was supposed to go to the NHS? Ask UKIP. They decided to vote based on prejudice and it cost them a lot of money and respect. Fucked up the entire country. UKIP what a joke.

Look: https://youtu.be/Ddzf9Mm4hdY?t=2m35s
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: TerraHertz on September 11, 2018, 10:20:03 pm
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-10/harvard-prof-merit-based-admissions-reproduce-inequality (https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-10/harvard-prof-merit-based-admissions-reproduce-inequality)
Harvard Prof: Merit-Based Admissions "Reproduce Inequality"

They are never going to stop.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 11, 2018, 11:08:43 pm
Can't you quote properly, Beamin? Please.

https://youtu.be/Br_RhjvZIrU?t=1s
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: TerraHertz on September 12, 2018, 05:04:27 pm
http://joannenova.com.au/2018/09/forbidden-facts-and-papers-that-are-erased-thou-shalt-not-discuss-intelligence/ (http://joannenova.com.au/2018/09/forbidden-facts-and-papers-that-are-erased-thou-shalt-not-discuss-intelligence/)
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.04184.pdf (https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.04184.pdf)

The best thing about intellectual censorship, is it helps you know who the barbarians are.

Edit to add:
https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2017/08/engineering-education-social-engineering-rather-actual-engineering/ (https://www.jamesgmartin.center/2017/08/engineering-education-social-engineering-rather-actual-engineering/)
Engineering Education: Social Engineering Rather than Actual Engineering
   (Honorary mention of our old friend Prof. Donna Riley of Purdue.)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rsjsouza on September 13, 2018, 03:09:29 am
http://joannenova.com.au/2018/09/forbidden-facts-and-papers-that-are-erased-thou-shalt-not-discuss-intelligence/ (http://joannenova.com.au/2018/09/forbidden-facts-and-papers-that-are-erased-thou-shalt-not-discuss-intelligence/)
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.04184.pdf (https://arxiv.org/pdf/1703.04184.pdf)

The best thing about intellectual censorship, is it helps you know who the barbarians are.
What a clusterf***. That is what happens when science caters to the zeitgeist.  :palm:
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on September 13, 2018, 12:09:02 pm
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-10/harvard-prof-merit-based-admissions-reproduce-inequality (https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-10/harvard-prof-merit-based-admissions-reproduce-inequality)
Harvard Prof: Merit-Based Admissions "Reproduce Inequality"

They are never going to stop.


I never click on urls that have-long-drawn-out-names-like-Harvard-proof-mit-... because they are usually fake articles that no one will click on but you will see the url with key words like -Harvard-aliens-are-real-proof-professor-secret-moonlanding-hoax-flt-earth and then think its proof.


Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: jadew on September 13, 2018, 03:27:35 pm
I never click on urls that have-long-drawn-out-names-like-Harvard-proof-mit-... because they are usually fake articles that no one will click on but you will see the url with key words like -Harvard-aliens-are-real-proof-professor-secret-moonlanding-hoax-flt-earth and then think its proof.

Then you're probably not clicking anything, because that's how most sites do it these days.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 19, 2018, 04:37:59 pm
Unintended consequences of highlighting problems of female in STEM:

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11305 (https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11305)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: John B on September 19, 2018, 05:12:16 pm
Unintended consequences of highlighting problems of female in STEM:

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11305 (https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11305)

I can think of at least one parallel example. About 10 years ago, atheist communities, primarily online blog/forum based ones, started seeing the injection of far left wing and feminist politics into atheist conversations. These were also largely American. From the constant rumour mongering about creepy male attendees, and a few higher profile disproven allegations of "harrassment" sexual or otherwise, one of the unintended consequences was a reduction in female attendance at the main American conventions (where the stated goal was to increase female attendance). The cynical part of me think that overall female participation is never the goal, simply consolidation of power amongst women of a far left feminist disposition.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 19, 2018, 05:41:56 pm
Unintended consequences of highlighting problems of female in STEM:

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11305 (https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11305)

I can think of at least one parallel example. About 10 years ago, atheist communities, primarily online blog/forum based ones, started seeing the injection of far left wing and feminist politics into atheist conversations. These were also largely American. From the constant rumour mongering about creepy male attendees, and a few higher profile disproven allegations of "harrassment" sexual or otherwise, one of the unintended consequences was a reduction in female attendance at the main American conventions (where the stated goal was to increase female attendance). The cynical part of me think that overall female participation is never the goal, simply consolidation of power amongst women of a far left feminist disposition.

I used to be big into the atheist community, and yep, it was essentially destroyed by the SJW driven "Atheism+" movement.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: wilfred on September 19, 2018, 08:01:45 pm
Unintended consequences of highlighting problems of female in STEM:

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11305 (https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11305)
What about this one?
https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11220 (https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11220)

It is by the same writer and similarly reports on some unexpected biases that work against women in engineering.

"Two Kansas State University professors have discovered that women in engineering are 11.6 percent less likely to pass the field’s professional license exam, which they suggest may partly be due to “biases in the exam itself.”"

But why in Montana is it the reverse?

You could go right through that campusreform website and not find any answers. It seems to be a waste of time reading it. But it does provide a link to a place to purchase the article. 24hr access is only $50

The article Dave linked is cheaper at 35 euros.

The whole site seems to be a clickbait portal for sales of articles. A classic rabbit hole if ever there was one.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rsjsouza on September 20, 2018, 05:13:39 am
While the first article has a seemingly obvious reason as to why this happens:
Quote
“increased awareness of gender bias in the sciences, which led women, but not men, to ultimately experience decreased anticipated belonging and trust and increased negative affect and stereotype threat concerns about the STEM organization.”

The last article reaches conclusions so vague that I believe the clickbait is to grab more funding instead of selling access fees to the study:
Quote
More research is needed to determine why exactly women are passing the PE exam at lower rates than men, but in an interview with Campus Reform, Keen suggested that the timing of the exam may pose a problem for women, as they may have less time to study due to family obligations.

(...)

Women in engineering may also have spent less time developing technical skills, Keen said.

But the first step to fixing this, Keen writes, is addressing the “biases in the exam itself.”
Without reaching any concrete motives, obviously the problem to be addressed is the "bias in the exam itself".  :palm:

(note: before someone throws tomatoes at my post, I am taking these notes at face value without actually accessing the articles themselves - they may present something different).
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: analogo on September 22, 2018, 02:17:20 am
Unintended consequences of highlighting problems of female in STEM:

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11305 (https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11305)

Another example of how dangerous it is to constantly cry wolf (if there is a wolf, shoot, don't shout): https://www.information-age.com/women-studying-computer-skills-123474826/ (https://www.information-age.com/women-studying-computer-skills-123474826/)

Quote
Analysis [from the Joint Council for Qualifications (JCQ)] shows that the number of female students who took GCSEs in Computing or ICT has fallen from 52,835 in 2014, down to 35,103 this summer (2018).
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Beamin on September 24, 2018, 12:34:59 pm
Unintended consequences of highlighting problems of female in STEM:

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11305 (https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=11305)

I can think of at least one parallel example. About 10 years ago, atheist communities, primarily online blog/forum based ones, started seeing the injection of far left wing and feminist politics into atheist conversations. These were also largely American. From the constant rumour mongering about creepy male attendees, and a few higher profile disproven allegations of "harrassment" sexual or otherwise, one of the unintended consequences was a reduction in female attendance at the main American conventions (where the stated goal was to increase female attendance). The cynical part of me think that overall female participation is never the goal, simply consolidation of power amongst women of a far left feminist disposition.

I used to be big into the atheist community, and yep, it was essentially destroyed by the SJW driven "Atheism+" movement.


Those Atheism+ people made it seem exactly like a church you would go to meetings they would decide opinions for all the atheists in the world charge dues just like a church. Atheism isn't a group of people its the left overs that don't belong. Turning them into a group just makes them another religion. Plus I'm atheist and I don't agree with 90%  of stuff they said. I don't want them to succeed and when I tell people I'm atheist they automatically think I'm part of that group with its SJW BS. Same with anika sarkasian speaking out for trans people. She doesn't represent us and I certainly don't want to be associated with her. She thinks that because we get prejudice and discrimination that she can speak for us. She can't and you CAN see superman's butt in the video she posted: its black shiny and round.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on September 24, 2018, 07:24:53 pm
Another example of how dangerous it is to constantly cry wolf (if there is a wolf, shoot, don't shout): https://www.information-age.com/women-studying-computer-skills-123474826/ (https://www.information-age.com/women-studying-computer-skills-123474826/)
Quote
Analysis [from the Joint Council for Qualifications (JCQ)] shows that the number of female students who took GCSEs in Computing or ICT has fallen from 52,835 in 2014, down to 35,103 this summer (2018).
Articles like this are truly appalling, and far too common. They start out with a narrative and fudge the information until it fits the narrative. First, they quote numbers for girls, but not for boys. No comparison between these groups is possible is they don't give all the numbers. This is one of the commonest sleazy tricks in these articles - "girls changed by X", ignoring that "boys also changed by roughly X". They do provide enough information to see the relative changes for girls, and the picture looks really positive. The number taking ICT, which is largely fluff, has collapsed. The number taking "computing" has increased by 265% in 3 years. "Computing" is the serious GCSE exam. How is that not a positive picture? It would be even better if the number taking computing exceeded the number taking ICT, but we know that fluff exams are generally going to be the more popular ones for either sex.

BBC Radio 4 has a program on Friday afternoons called More or Less, where they pull apart numbers being used in deceptive ways in the media. We need more things like this.

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Eka on September 25, 2018, 06:48:31 pm
BBC Radio 4 has a program on Friday afternoons called More or Less, where they pull apart numbers being used in deceptive ways in the media. We need more things like this.
Hear! Hear!
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 25, 2018, 09:00:34 pm
It's now hit open source software, Linux is in big trouble:

https://lulz.com/linux-devs-threaten-killswitch-coc-controversy-1252/
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on September 25, 2018, 11:09:30 pm
It's now hit open source software, Linux is in big trouble:

https://lulz.com/linux-devs-threaten-killswitch-coc-controversy-1252/

that's is going to be interesting, somehow I don't think shaming nerds or forcing them to socialize in ways they aren't known
to been very good at at or care much about is going to work
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on September 25, 2018, 11:38:50 pm
It's now hit open source software, Linux is in big trouble:

https://lulz.com/linux-devs-threaten-killswitch-coc-controversy-1252/

I don't pretend to know the detail of this, but when I first hear about it a day or two ago, I found it ironic that the the diversity & inclusivity crowd have ended up excluding people by their perceived harrassment. It's all about the feels, see.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 25, 2018, 11:50:50 pm
Quote
What is very clear is that Torvalds got fucking castrated and lost his balls. This is not the Linus Torvalds we’ve known for the last 30 years. Man the fuck up, Torvalds, and face your opposition. Don’t let groups of irrational people suffering from severe mental damage due to sexual repression destroy your 30 years of hard work. The very least you could do is be honest about what the fuck is actually happening right now. If you can’t even do that, and if you’re not willing to step up and fight for what’s right, then in your own words simply “SHUT THE FUCK UP!” and “Please just kill yourself now”.

https://medium.com/@kareldonk/im-very-disappointed-in-linus-torvalds-f5d0b4759cd4

(https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1200/1*oLKFreNYAOL0b3WYXAz0og.jpeg)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2018, 12:28:09 am
that's is going to be interesting, somehow I don't think shaming nerds or forcing them to socialize in ways they aren't known
to been very good at at or care much about is going to work

It won't, the nerds and meritocracy will win, even if the house gets burned down.
Modern social justice poisons everything it touches.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 26, 2018, 12:39:57 am
Quote
the nerds and meritocracy will win

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/gender-politics-has-now-infected-engineering-as-well/?action=dlattach;attach=531620;image)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on September 26, 2018, 12:44:06 am
that's is going to be interesting, somehow I don't think shaming nerds or forcing them to socialize in ways they aren't known
to been very good at at or care much about is going to work

It won't, the nerds and meritocracy will win, even if the house gets burned down.
Modern social justice poisons everything it touches.

When the author behind the CoC has a website like this: https://postmeritocracy.org/ it says lot

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 26, 2018, 01:06:36 am
Quote
the nerds and meritocracy will win

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/gender-politics-has-now-infected-engineering-as-well/?action=dlattach;attach=531620;image)
How does one measure humanity?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: JPortici on September 26, 2018, 01:38:34 am
Quote
the nerds and meritocracy will win

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/gender-politics-has-now-infected-engineering-as-well/?action=dlattach;attach=531620;image)

is she quoting athlas shrugged or something?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on September 26, 2018, 01:40:36 am
When the author behind the CoC has a website like this: https://postmeritocracy.org/ it says lot

Frightening. It's not hard to see that the collective will judge by mob rule, and dish out their Gulag sentences appropriately. I wonder how many of those signatories are just shit at their jobs, or have yet to hold down a real job?

It's all about the feels now folks.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 26, 2018, 02:02:51 am
Quote
Meritocracy is a negative system where the worth of an individual is measured not by their humanity but solely by their intellectual output
How does one measure humanity?

Solve:

human = animal + rational - intellectual output
rational = intellectual output
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: HoracioDos on September 26, 2018, 02:26:58 am
Hi
I won't defend Coraline as I don't like many social warriors ideas (too left for my taste), but I think that her words were taken out of context. She wrote a book called "The Compassionate Coder" (I didn't read it). She seems to believe that technical skills are not enough to write code and it's necesary to understand the role of empathy and how to form healthy bonds with your peers and managers to create an "ethical" software products. If merits are only meassured by technical skills you can say that meritocracy is not good enough and meritocracy should include soft skills (of course very hard to measure).
As a project manager I have to deal with tech geeks on daily basis and I can say that many of them are selfish children, they are incapable to see a problem as a whole and It's very hard to work with them.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on September 26, 2018, 05:10:04 am
If merits are only meassured by technical skills you can say that meritocracy is not good enough and meritocracy should include soft skills (of course very hard to measure).
Wrong. Just like science is about measurable, repeatable phenomena, merit is a consequence of proven skill and ability. What you call "soft skills" is an innate part of technical ability, because absolutely nothing we do is completely internally generated: every human achievement is rooted in human-human interaction.

(If you consider typical human behaviour where "soft skills" are critical, you'll find they are things where social order is regimented. There is nothing "soft" about collaboration, cooperation, and leadership.) 

Meritocracy is a system where those who produce the best results get to lead.  It works.  A communist-style management by committee of those who believe they know better than others, disregarding merit (which is a core part of socialism and communism), is doomed to failure: despite nearly countless attempts at various scales, it has never worked for any society larger than a village or clan.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rsjsouza on September 26, 2018, 06:13:36 am
It is a balance. A society based excessively on meritocracy pushes anyone that is physically and mentally disadvantaged to the fringe and sentences them and their offspring to eternal condemnation. On the other hand, a society entirely based on the equality of outcome sentences anyone that is physically and mentally advantaged to mediocrity and prevents true advancements of the human being.

There was a video where Jordan Peterson explains this better, but I forgot where it was.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: HoracioDos on September 26, 2018, 07:06:36 am
If merits are only meassured by technical skills you can say that meritocracy is not good enough and meritocracy should include soft skills (of course very hard to measure).
Wrong. Just like science is about measurable, repeatable phenomena, merit is a consequence of proven skill and ability. What you call "soft skills" is an innate part of technical ability, because absolutely nothing we do is completely internally generated: every human achievement is rooted in human-human interaction.

(If you consider typical human behaviour where "soft skills" are critical, you'll find they are things where social order is regimented. There is nothing "soft" about collaboration, cooperation, and leadership.) 

Meritocracy is a system where those who produce the best results get to lead.  It works.  A communist-style management by committee of those who believe they know better than others, disregarding merit (which is a core part of socialism and communism), is doomed to failure: despite nearly countless attempts at various scales, it has never worked for any society larger than a village or clan.

I agree with you mostly but I think you are missing the point.
As I undertand it, Coraline is critic about meritocracy if it is only based on academic achievement, IQ or daily code lines. As you say merit, is a consequence of proven skill and ability in every aspect.
Many companies employ highly skilled people who doesn't know how to interact with others and they spend a lot of money due to employee rotation and project delays, but market doesn't punish companies that are not efficient everytime. Take for example Steve Jobs, Apple made billions but he was almost a sociopath. It was near impossible to work with him. His merit was a proven reality distortion field.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2018, 08:07:46 am
I won't defend Coraline as I don't like many social warriors ideas (too left for my taste), but I think that her words were taken out of context. She wrote a book called "The Compassionate Coder" (I didn't read it). She seems to believe that technical skills are not enough to write code and it's necesary to understand the role of empathy and how to form healthy bonds with your peers and managers to create an "ethical" software products.

She is delusional.
Collaborative projects like Linux is only about the code, that's it. That's why people can remain anonymous avatars if they want, all that matters is is their code good enough.

Quote
If merits are only meassured by technical skills you can say that meritocracy is not good enough and meritocracy should include soft skills (of course very hard to measure).
As a project manager I have to deal with tech geeks on daily basis and I can say that many of them are selfish children, they are incapable to see a problem as a whole and It's very hard to work with them.

That is why at most engineering companies there are two requirements to get a job:
1) Can you do the job and do it well
and
2) Will you get along with everyone

If you are really really good then people will usually put up with the lot of crap from you, because merit trumps feels almost every time.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rsjsouza on September 26, 2018, 08:28:19 am
That is why at most engineering companies there are two requirements to get a job:
1) Can you do the job and do it well
and
2) Will you get along with everyone

If you are really really good then people will usually put up with the lot of crap from you, because merit trumps feels almost every time.
That is my experience as well, although the tolerance for the abusers is eroding quite quickly these days. I tend to get along with everyone, but I have seen teams sink in their deadlines (and eventually get the boot at the first layoff round) due to a single bad actor that spread discord across the other members.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on September 26, 2018, 08:52:27 am
As I undertand it, Coraline is critic about meritocracy if it is only based on academic achievement, IQ or daily code lines.
No. She is a critic of all systems where her particular set of political views do not overrule any considerations of merit. That is, she demands that anyone who does not conform to her set of political rules, to be ostracized regardless of their merits; regardless of their proven track record with regard to results.  She demands that her political rules must override meritocracy.

Think about that for a moment.  What would your bosses tell you, if you told them you wanted to replace a trio of assholes that produce $10M in revenue per year, with a politically correct, nice team everyone loves that produces $5M in revenue per year?  That is what the CoC lunatics are demanding FOSS projects in particular "must do".  If you were the boss, what would you do? Think about it.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on September 26, 2018, 09:10:22 am
That is why at most engineering companies there are two requirements to get a job:
1) Can you do the job and do it well
and
2) Will you get along with everyone

If you are really really good then people will usually put up with the lot of crap from you, because merit trumps feels almost every time.

Likewise if you have a really good attitude and are pleasant to be around, people will usually put up with mediocre output so long as it's at least acceptable most of the time.

Regarding meritocracy, isn't that simply survival of the fittest, the essence of evolution? If you can't pull your own weight, you get left behind and are less likely to reproduce. I realize it sounds cold but that's life, humans are the only animal species I'm aware of that make any effort at all to prop up the weak. Merit doesn't have to be producing something great, being interesting, entertaining, or otherwise enjoyable to be around is a merit itself.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: HoracioDos on September 26, 2018, 09:34:53 am
No. She is a critic of all systems where her particular set of political views do not overrule any considerations of merit. That is, she demands that anyone who does not conform to her set of political rules, to be ostracized regardless of their merits; regardless of their proven track record with regard to results.  She demands that her political rules must override meritocracy.
I didn't know that. I knew she is a very controversial character but she seems to be a fascist. I'm for mutual respect but I don't like the gender idiology when It is based on marxist concepts.

Think about that for a moment.  What would your bosses tell you, if you told them you wanted to replace a trio of assholes that produce $10M in revenue per year, with a politically correct, nice team everyone loves that produces $5M in revenue per year? 
I worked for two big US multinational companies, and that kind of behaviour would not be tolerated.

That is what the CoC lunatics are demanding FOSS projects in particular "must do".  If you were the boss, what would you do? Think about it.
I agree about this. CoC should not be necesary and it is quite naive to demand one in FOSS.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: HoracioDos on September 26, 2018, 09:39:23 am
Regarding meritocracy, isn't that simply survival of the fittest, the essence of evolution? If you can't pull your own weight, you get left behind and are less likely to reproduce. I realize it sounds cold but that's life, humans are the only animal species I'm aware of that make any effort at all to prop up the weak. Merit doesn't have to be producing something great, being interesting, entertaining, or otherwise enjoyable to be around is a merit itself.
I see you point, but you can't kill half of your own country because they can't keep the pace. They will kill you first.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rjp on September 26, 2018, 09:57:48 am
That is why at most engineering companies there are two requirements to get a job:
1) Can you do the job and do it well
and
2) Will you get along with everyone

If you are really really good then people will usually put up with the lot of crap from you, because merit trumps feels almost every time.

Likewise if you have a really good attitude and are pleasant to be around, people will usually put up with mediocre output so long as it's at least acceptable most of the time.

Regarding meritocracy, isn't that simply survival of the fittest, the essence of evolution? If you can't pull your own weight, you get left behind and are less likely to reproduce. I realize it sounds cold but that's life, humans are the only animal species I'm aware of that make any effort at all to prop up the weak. Merit doesn't have to be producing something great, being interesting, entertaining, or otherwise enjoyable to be around is a merit itself.

 

i do expect my surgeons and my engineers to be competent as the first priority, i dont care if they are abrasive people.

noone is saying that non engineers are lesser people, or not worthy of respect, this is absurd, i just dont want them writing my operating system.

the whole thing is a manufactured argument - the kernel team already has a community that makes its decisions on the personality/code tradeoffs, every community on the planet does this automatically.


Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on September 26, 2018, 10:09:00 am
I see you point, but you can't kill half of your own country because they can't keep the pace. They will kill you first.

I didn't say kill them, but it's not realistic to expect people who can't pull their own weight to have premium jobs. Some people are going to do better in life than others, that's just life.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: KL27x on September 26, 2018, 10:35:24 am
Quote
It won't, the nerds and meritocracy will win, even if the house gets burned down.
Nerds don't win at politics. They are at the mercy of which direction the wind blows. They will work for GE, or they will work for Hitler. Depends when and where they are, at the time.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: BrianHG on September 26, 2018, 10:42:25 am
Quote
the nerds and meritocracy will win

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/gender-politics-has-now-infected-engineering-as-well/?action=dlattach;attach=531620;image)
How does one measure humanity?
Definitely not by the measuring units the church/religions demands.  Otherwise, we would be stuck with a single religion and 0 global humankind advancement as a whole.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on September 26, 2018, 11:14:17 am
Regarding meritocracy, isn't that simply survival of the fittest, the essence of evolution?
It's not actually that.  It is about using past performance as the measure when deciding who gets to rule. (There are many ways one could define "merit", though.) It is more of a method than a specific set of criteria.

How does one measure humanity?
Definitely not by the measuring units the church/religions demands.  Otherwise, we would be stuck with a single religion and 0 global humankind advancement as a whole.
That is where all that social and linguistic trickery comes in.  Good-sounding, but diffuse terms are used as qualifiers, because they really do not know. They feel, very strongly; and asking for rational basis or definition is regarded as a direct personal attack.

They are not lying, nor is there any sort of "conspiracy" there; they just feel, rather than think. That is also why their arguments are often heartfelt (aside from some players and manipulators), even when completely irrational.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: HoracioDos on September 26, 2018, 11:25:58 am
I didn't say kill them, but it's not realistic to expect people who can't pull their own weight to have premium jobs. Some people are going to do better in life than others, that's just life.
I know you didn't say that. I didn't want to elaborate. I live in a country with 25,7% of people below poverty line. Why? Mainly because of our own stupidity. It will be very long to explain. Big question is how to help people to raise from poverty without falling into populism or communism. The answer to that is off topic
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2018, 01:14:53 pm
that's is going to be interesting, somehow I don't think shaming nerds or forcing them to socialize in ways they aren't known
to been very good at at or care much about is going to work

It won't, the nerds and meritocracy will win, even if the house gets burned down.
Modern social justice poisons everything it touches.

When the author behind the CoC has a website like this: https://postmeritocracy.org/ it says lot

Wow.
And there is a whole list of "signatories". I don't know who they are, but that could come back to bite them  ;D
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2018, 01:19:35 pm
Think about that for a moment.  What would your bosses tell you, if you told them you wanted to replace a trio of assholes that produce $10M in revenue per year, with a politically correct, nice team everyone loves that produces $5M in revenue per year? 
I worked for two big US multinational companies, and that kind of behaviour would not be tolerated.

It's not hard to leave the productive "arseholes" in a corner somewhere and keep them out of trouble, and they usually prefer it that way anyway. It's very common for hugely productive people to be, well, let's say, socially awkward.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2018, 01:27:30 pm
the whole thing is a manufactured argument - the kernel team already has a community that makes its decisions on the personality/code tradeoffs, every community on the planet does this automatically.

Indeed. The existing system does not need to be fixed, it works just fine. But the entire SJW agenda is built around finding problems in everything that needs "fixing".
Are there any linux kernel coders who have been driven away because of any "inclusion" issue? Is there any real victim? any real problem to solve?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: John B on September 26, 2018, 01:38:41 pm
Relevant.

(https://i.imgur.com/GJ99Pnl.jpg)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on September 26, 2018, 03:50:03 pm
Are there any linux kernel coders who have been driven away because of any "inclusion" issue? Is there any real victim? any real problem to solve?
Sarah Sharp: "Sharp stepped down from direct work on the kernel [USB 3 driver maintainer] on 5 October 2015, citing the abrasive communication style and "abusive commentary [on submitted patches]" of the maintainer community."  Apparently, that included (https://github.com/sagesharp?tab=repositories) basically all actual code development work. She seems to have switched to social justice/diversity/identity politics, and later changed her name to Sage Sharp.

Personally, I believe she didn't find code development itself interesting, and simply leveraged her departure to get a name for herself on the social justice side and outreach programs: she seems much more passionate about political stuff than she ever was on LKML on any code or design issues.  She was on the Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board till 2017 or so, if I recall correctly.

She seems to have a lot of political clout somehow, and seems to be right now actively pushing the Linux Foundation TAB to ostracize some key Linux developers, like Ted Tso, for not acquiescing to the CoC. (Sharp and some others claim Tso is a rape apologist, because he dared question rape statistics on some mailing list, and was even banned from Linux Conf Australia because of that accusation.)

These social justice/outreach/diversity people seem utterly toxic to me.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2018, 04:03:10 pm
Are there any linux kernel coders who have been driven away because of any "inclusion" issue? Is there any real victim? any real problem to solve?
Sarah Sharp: "Sharp stepped down from direct work on the kernel [USB 3 driver maintainer] on 5 October 2015, citing the abrasive communication style and "abusive commentary [on submitted patches]"

TRANSLATION "I couldn't hack it, so I quit"
Who cares, happens every day in every work place, in every industry. Some people don't like how other people talk to them or criticise them, and that's their problem, not a problem of the people/company/system/*-ism. Welcome to the non-utopian human race.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2018, 04:13:07 pm
She seems to have a lot of political clout somehow

That's our society in recent years, everyone wants to be seem to support all these "causes" (a.k.a virtue signalling), and that's what gives these people power in the universities, companies and communities.
And they have a huge axe to wield in the form of "If you are against this CoC then you MUST be pro-harassment" etc, and no one wants to stand up and say publicly this is all BS. Because if you do it means losing your job, your career etc.
But the cracks are starting to form as the SJW movement gets more extreme and things like this start to shine a light on how stupid it all is. They can't help themselves but shove it into every aspect of society, to the movements inevitable demise.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on September 26, 2018, 06:47:32 pm

When the author behind the CoC has a website like this: https://postmeritocracy.org/ it says lot

Wow.
And there is a whole list of "signatories". I don't know who they are, but that could come back to bite them  ;D

I was thinking the same thing. As an employer, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole, you're pretty much certain to risk disruption and divisiveness within a team. It's always possible this is bad faith, for example, perhaps some of those names are made up, or they signed up to something else and the "manifesto" has miraculously morphed since they lent their name to it.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 26, 2018, 07:28:57 pm
These SJWs/LGBTxyz are a cancer, I hope Linus does not end up as Brendan Eich.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Eich#Mozilla (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Eich#Mozilla)

And also:

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907 (http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907)
Quote
The short version is: if you are any kind of open-source leader or senior figure who is male, do not be alone with any female, ever, at a technical conference. Try to avoid even being alone, ever, because there is a chance that a “women in tech” advocacy group is going to try to collect your scalp.


More rubbish SJW nonsense in action here:

https://atom-morgan.github.io/in-defense-of-douglas-crockford/ (https://atom-morgan.github.io/in-defense-of-douglas-crockford/)

Quote
Everything I’ve been able to find points to two comments Crockford has made: one being labeled as sexist and the other as slut-shaming. The first comment he made which you can watch here was as harmless as:

“Instead we’re adding a second kind of object which unfortunately is known as weak map. And that’s a problem because nobody wants to put anything weak in their program, right?” * flexes on stage *

The second incident which you can also watch for yourself is where he “slut-shames the web” [1] [2]:

“So the old web was great because it provided promiscuity. It meant that you could go and connect to anything and you’re probably going to be okay. You might get shocked and embarrassed but your machine’s not going to get taken over, your identity is not going to get stolen. That hasn’t always been true but pretty much the web can do that and that’s good because that allows us to get introduced to things. We used to call it surfing. That you could go from one thing to another and discover stuff and start forming relationships. Unfortunately, the same thing which allows the promiscuity to work is very bad for dealing with commmitment. So that’s what the new web is for. You know, once I have found my bank I want to make sure from this point on I’m talking to my bank and I’m not talking to anything which pretends to be my bank.”

What a danger to our industry! Ignoring the complete over-reaction to these two comments a quick search of the word promiscuity on dictionary.com shows that Crockford actually used this word correctly.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on September 26, 2018, 07:37:31 pm
Are there any linux kernel coders who have been driven away because of any "inclusion" issue?

I did some work on the MIPS USB 2.0 EHCI code some years ago, and fixed some problems around USB FS compatibility, particularly around bandwidth aggregation and transaction translators. I found it incredibly difficult to break into the clique and have my code accepted so I gave up. I have neither the time nor the inclination to massage others' egos, so I made my code publicly available and left it at that. I have plenty of other battles far more worthy of fighting thank you!

So, I would say, absolutely there is an inclusion issue, but it has nothing to do with gender, or any other demographic, and everything to do with how nerds (just like me) tend to operate.

Quote
Is there any real victim?

No, except in some people's imagination.

Quote
any real problem to solve?

Certainly not if you end up causing more damage, division and exclusion, which is evidently the case here.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rjp on September 26, 2018, 08:14:26 pm
why they arent they attacking minix or plan 9 or other open source operating systems.

maybe their isnt any free fame and fortune to be found leeching off those.. hmm.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 26, 2018, 08:18:16 pm
I did some work on the MIPS USB 2.0 EHCI code some years ago, and fixed some problems around USB FS compatibility, particularly around bandwidth aggregation and transaction translators. I found it incredibly difficult to break into the clique and have my code accepted so I gave up. I have neither the time nor the inclination to massage others' egos, so I made my code publicly available and left it at that. I have plenty of other battles far more worthy of fighting thank you!

So, I would say, absolutely there is an inclusion issue, but it has nothing to do with gender, or any other demographic, and everything to do with how nerds (just like me) tend to operate.

No wonder the bar is set high for Linux, it's the #1 open source project in every sense. In my experience the smaller the project is, the more welcomed your Pull Requests are. And if you've been committing often and since the beginning, your PRs tend to have preference over similar ones from others less well known than you.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: SparkyFX on September 26, 2018, 08:33:51 pm
Quote
It won't, the nerds and meritocracy will win, even if the house gets burned down.
Nerds don't win at politics. They are at the mercy of which direction the wind blows. They will work for GE, or they will work for Hitler. Depends when and where they are, at the time.
I kind of doubt it, yet they will have the usual parvenus above them, that either scare the shit out of them, do some form of translation from "nerd" to "joe average", present it all as a theoretical problem and will isolate the communication in ways to strip all moral side effects to get what they want - even if it is evil shit that won´t work for long, even if it requires threatening people. There are plenty of people that specialize in this form of manipulation but have no productive output on their own - especially in multinationals. They do practically roll out changes in structure so fast that it becomes less obvious that the last changes turned out to be a step backward instead of the proposed progress, they control communication about it using these methods and if their superiors are of the same kind they won´t even try to ask - the queen thinks the world smells like fresh paint, after all. Smaller companies could not afford the consequences/losses or it would be a lot more obvious - so there it is either their direct function to act that way or a side effect.

This brings us to open source projects. There is (or should i say: should be) no corporate culture, no management in the traditional sense, no existential/employer-employee dependency (therefore no government mandated equal treatment), no money, there is just output - and it is as direct as it can get, the head honcho will read the name of the smallest gear in the transmission no matter what. So the role of a person and judgements are based on output (incl. "glue" services, helpful things in general), therefore there should not be any kind of advantage to apply aforementioned methods at all. And imho meritocracy ensures that and would keep people sane when working in a fact based field - whereas redefinition of such processes to psychology based definitions are always based on an ever changing definition of "normal" - they have no absolute base. E.g. if tomorrow the majority of people is disgusted by eating red apples, anyone taking a bite will by definition not be normal even if nothing is wrong with red apples and you just did not get the memo denoting red apples as evil. If the argument about meritocracy is not about the difference between "lowest common denominator" and "average", it will be about the perception what those two are.

Quote
communist-style management by committee
In a democracy there are also panels of subject matter experts that will have a more or less biased questions delegated to them for law making purposes. It just takes a change of wording to get from one system to the other.  The first part of their job is to estimate how big of an impact a change actually makes, and of course the same job can be done in a good or in a bad way.

Imho the definition of socialism/communism starts at the totalitarian approach - reasoning every penalty with self-preservation and therefore making everyone completely dependent when interacting within groups. I dont´t talk about risking a voluntary role in some virtual online project one does in their spare time or a slight change in how things are done, I talk about the system affecting your and your family´s whole life.

Quote
Regarding meritocracy, isn't that simply survival of the fittest, the essence of evolution?
I think the use of this phrase is heavily overstressed... it could also be interpreted as survival of the optimal adaptation to the given environment - this is not a finished status in any way, just requires a lot of fast learning if changes occur.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2018, 08:43:52 pm
So, I would say, absolutely there is an inclusion issue, but it has nothing to do with gender, or any other demographic, and everything to do with how nerds (just like me) tend to operate.

And therein lies the rub. If that happened to anyone who's not a straight white male, and they had had "bias training" and/or indoctrination at seemingly any university these days, it would be obviously all about gender or race  ::)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: HoracioDos on September 26, 2018, 09:28:06 pm
I was thinking the same thing. As an employer, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole, you're pretty much certain to risk disruption and divisiveness within a team.
That's true. I wouldn't hire people like this and I'm sure that I would be accused of discrimination if someone is not accepted.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on September 26, 2018, 10:13:13 pm
I found it incredibly difficult to break into the clique and have my code accepted so I gave up.
Yup; the volume is high, so getting attention even for security bug fixing patches (1 (https://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=146463784122248&w=4), 2 (https://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=146464007622912&w=4)) is hard.  It is not personal, though; they're only a clique in the sense they know they (each other) won't generally waste each others time.

That said, some other projects have taken literally years to accept a bug-fix patch.

In a democracy there are also panels of subject matter experts that will have a more or less biased questions delegated to them for law making purposes.
How do you think those subject matter experts are chosen? In a democracy, if they don't have the necessary merits in the minds of the voters, their suggestions will bear little weight.

In a socialist/communist system, merit is always secondary to other considerations. Remember Karl Marx: "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." Those with merit are required to provide their knowledge when asked, but they have no "moral right" to expect their advice is heeded in any way.

Imho the definition of socialism/communism starts at the totalitarian approach
I probably should have omitted the two political terms; I just thought it was important to know that "social justice" is nothing new, just a part of a known non-working system repackaged into a more appealing wrapping.  Bah, I'm not good at English.

It's not hard to leave the productive "arseholes" in a corner somewhere and keep them out of trouble
Exactly. You put a buffer between them and clients, and hire a cat herder to learn how to deal with them making them as productive as possible.

One could even buffer them by making sure they mostly communicate with others via written text, so their "arseholeness" is less evident (it being typically more a lack of social skills and bluntness, as opposed to any kind of malice or negative intent), with communication focusing on the work product.  You'll probably end up having someone who chews their butts off if they go over the line, but does not carry any grudges at all, to keep the discussions civil; and to keep them focused on the important bits so they won't go astray.   Waaaait, why does this sound familiar?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 26, 2018, 10:28:15 pm
It's not hard to leave the productive "arseholes" in a corner somewhere and keep them out of trouble
Exactly. You put a buffer between them and clients, and hire a cat herder to learn how to deal with them making them as productive as possible.

One could even buffer them by making sure they mostly communicate with others via written text, so their "arseholeness" is less evident (it being typically more a lack of social skills and bluntness, as opposed to any kind of malice or negative intent), with communication focusing on the work product.  You'll probably end up having someone who chews their butts off if they go over the line, but does not carry any grudges at all, to keep the discussions civil; and to keep them focused on the important bits so they won't go astray.   Waaaait, why does this sound familiar?

Card carrying members of the basement cubicle, sound off! 

(pic of my desk literally in the basement)  ;D

(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/gender-politics-has-now-infected-engineering-as-well/?action=dlattach;attach=532592;image)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 26, 2018, 11:36:52 pm
Is that a flying pig over your head?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 27, 2018, 12:36:05 am
Is that a flying pig over your head?

It is. His name is Damocles.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on September 27, 2018, 03:35:35 am
Is that a flying pig over your head?

It is. His name is Damocles.

I may be mistaken, but as well as evidence of a failed musical chairs session, there appear to be some cat pictures on the wall. Shome mishtake shurely.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: firewalker on September 27, 2018, 04:17:35 am
It is. His name is Damocles.

Do you know why?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: firewalker on September 27, 2018, 04:20:55 am
I think the new CoC patch broke Linux User Space in a million pieces.

Segmentation Fault is here!

Alexander.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on September 27, 2018, 05:35:11 am
I think the new CoC patch broke Linux User Space in a million pieces.
I admit, I got worried for a couple of days when I found about this CoC mess.  For some odd reason your post somehow jolted me; it reminded me what kind of people Linux kernel developers/contributors actually are.

So, I'm not worried about the CoC mess actually affecting the Linux kernel development at all, anymore.  (Anyone who checks out my contributions will see I'm definitely at the paranoid end of the worrying spectrum, so that is quite a conclusion.)

If Fedora (who are putting together their own CoC) or other distros misstep in that regard, then some people may end up switching distros, but that's about it.  Plus harmless noise, of course.  Thanks, firewalker! ;D
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: firewalker on September 27, 2018, 04:49:34 pm
Why should there by a CoC? A code submitter could be a kid rapist writing from the prison. And the code could be excellent.

Alexander.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 27, 2018, 05:38:00 pm
Why should there by a CoC?

Because the people pushing it see discrimination, sexism, raceism, something-ism or inequality in everything, and it's something they think they need to fix.
Even if it doesn't exist they will find a way to argue it does, because their entire self worth is based the entire concept that someone is a victim and they need to help them.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 27, 2018, 05:40:11 pm
It is. His name is Damocles.
Do you know why?

Because in the big corporate engineering world the sword of project cancellation is always hanging over your head.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 27, 2018, 05:40:59 pm
I may be mistaken, but as well as evidence of a failed musical chairs session, there appear to be some cat pictures on the wall. Shome mishtake shurely.

Those are canyoning photos.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: apis on September 27, 2018, 07:27:22 pm
Why should there by a CoC?
Because the people pushing it see discrimination, sexism, raceism, something-ism or inequality in everything, and it's something they think they need to fix.
Even if it doesn't exist they will find a way to argue it does, because their entire self worth is based the entire concept that someone is a victim and they need to help them.
While I agree that so called SJWs often appear to invent problems where there are none, if there weren't people fighting for minorities and women to have the same basic civil rights as everyone else, we would still all be living in countries like Saudi Arabia (minus the oil money) and women still wouldn't be allowed to vote and people would be stoned to death for having sex before marriage. Heck, during the middle ages you could be burned at the stakes for being a 'sodomite' for having had oral sex with your wife.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: firewalker on September 27, 2018, 07:50:02 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9_bI789Gog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9_bI789Gog)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on September 27, 2018, 09:50:10 pm
While I agree that so called SJWs often appear to invent problems where there are none, if there weren't people fighting for minorities and women to have the same basic civil rights as everyone else

That war has been won, it's over.
These are not the same people who fought that war, this is a different kind of war, one that's (although not without merit in places) fundamentally stupid in so many respects. This is why there is so much backlash against it.
Feminism for example "ain't what it used to be".
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on September 27, 2018, 10:03:40 pm
While I agree that so called SJWs often appear to invent problems where there are none, if there weren't people fighting for minorities and women to have the same basic civil rights as everyone else

That war has been won, it's over.
These are not the same people who fought that war, this is a different kind of war, one that's (although not without merit in places) fundamentally stupid in so many respects. This is why there is so much backlash against it.
Feminism for example "ain't what it used to be".

Indeed, hence the TERF wars between some feminists and some trans folk (and their respective allies), where as far as I can tell, between them they're fighting for the greatest victimhood status. It's cringeworthy to watch.

For example, just this week in the UK:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45650462 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45650462)
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45642054 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45642054)

The irony is that far from being inclusive, people end up being excluded.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 28, 2018, 12:52:52 am
That channel's a gold mine :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7GWHgVZJQU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7GWHgVZJQU)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: doobedoobedo on September 28, 2018, 03:10:41 am
Feminist British MP let's slip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlhkUaS-9-s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlhkUaS-9-s)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: daqq on September 28, 2018, 04:13:24 am
...what in the actual fuck is wrong with these people?

I would honestly love to see a world where software development, engineering, science etc. is not merit based. Preferably from somewhere afar, like another planet. We'd still be trying to figure out a freakin' wheel (that is shaped in such a way that it does not offend Bob, who identifies as a small slug).
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on September 28, 2018, 04:29:18 am
Why should there by a CoC?
If it is just a short statement that reminds people to argue about things, not persons; that many people write in English as a foreign language so any kind of subtext or connotations are more likely to be an accident than intended; and that if they communicate too disruptively in the project communications channels, they may get a talking-to, a cool-down period, or for the most disruptive serial offenders, banned from those communications channel, then it might actually serve its purpose.

Which is for new contributors to read it when they get to know how the project works, and what is expected of them; and to point at, when socially overemotive people demand satisfaction for imagined slights.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on September 28, 2018, 04:58:32 am
Why should there by a CoC?
If it is just a short statement that reminds people to argue about things, not persons; that many people write in English as a foreign language so any kind of subtext or connotations are more likely to be an accident than intended; and that if they communicate too disruptively in the project communications channels, they may get a talking-to, a cool-down period, or for the most disruptive serial offenders, banned from those communications channel, then it might actually serve its purpose.

Which is for new contributors to read it when they get to know how the project works, and what is expected of them; and to point at, when socially overemotive people demand satisfaction for imagined slights.

that's  what was in the original code of conflict, without all the politics

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on September 28, 2018, 05:17:08 am
that's  what was in the original code of conflict, without all the politics
Exactly.  Many other projects have those, not always labeled as code of conduct or conflict or anything, just as a sensible introduction and guide for new contributors.  Like the pinned Forum rules - please read post here.  They're all fine.

The new one, and the ones being pushed on many large FOSS projects, are something completely different. They obviously do not have the same aim as the code of conflict or project introductions have -- to guide and support contributors for best possible results --, but something else, something political, something not related to engineering or software development at all, but social engineering and enforcing a specific political and moral values over everything else.

If you take a hard analytical look at their contents, they look more like guides for coordinated retaliation against divergence from an arbitrary set of political and moral rules, that have nothing to do with development at all.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on September 28, 2018, 06:16:34 am
It looks like the Linux Code of Conflict was changed to a Code of Conduct, because Linus crashed under the social pressure to be more Politically Correct (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45664640) (BBC).
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: innkeeper on September 28, 2018, 06:51:48 am
Oh My GOD!...i've given my gender changer connectors a drawer of there own.
Should I have let them choose the drawer of their choice?? I am I a bad engineer?
jeez, are my cross reference guides now need to be relabeled. should i hide them..are they now offensive to parts that were created with their right numbers, or parts that want to be something else

oh no...what about questionable parts like NTE ???? maybe they are the real things... maybe not..do i dare question do i accept how they identify themselves.. and they get their own drawer?

Think i am gonna take up something less charged. oh no is it a negative charge or positive.. hmm best to stay neutral right. you can't identify my polarity! that be charge discrimination right.

well the fact that your gonna measure a charge is discriminatory, its none of your buisness if it's actually positive or negative, the only thing that matters is how it self-identifies. therefore.... meters need to be outlawed right. maybe I'll place it in the drawer. o wait, that's a problem too. is there room for something that cares?

i'm going back to social work...much more PC

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: apis on September 28, 2018, 07:41:29 am
While I agree that so called SJWs often appear to invent problems where there are none, if there weren't people fighting for minorities and women to have the same basic civil rights as everyone else
That war has been won, it's over.
These are not the same people who fought that war, this is a different kind of war, one that's (although not without merit in places) fundamentally stupid in so many respects. This is why there is so much backlash against it.
Feminism for example "ain't what it used to be".
I agree with that, except that I don't think that you can ever say it's over; it's a never ending tug-of-war. (Ateists are expected to drop from 16% of the world's total population in 2010 to 13% in 2050 btw (wikipedia (http://"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_religion")).) You can never put your feet up and relax.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on September 28, 2018, 07:45:12 am
Have no fear regarding the gender wage gap. There’s a fix. Frock up, dudes.

Two of the Financial Times’ Top 100 Female Champions of Women in Business made it onto the list as blokes who enjoy dressing up in women’s clothes, some days. They are not claiming to be transgender.

Family person Pippa/Philip Bunce is head of Global Markets at Credit Suisse.

Nicci Take is the chief executive of the marketing company m62 vincis (and part time stand up comedian), and self-describes themselves as a “corporate drag queen” who “sometimes goes into work as a man so she can bully people better”.

Live and let live I say, but it does make a farce of this particular award in my view. It’s not as if these two individuals have had to juggle both the demands of a high powered job -and- attend to all the responsibilities typical of being a mother as well for example.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on September 28, 2018, 10:31:36 pm
While I agree that so called SJWs often appear to invent problems where there are none, if there weren't people fighting for minorities and women to have the same basic civil rights as everyone else

That war has been won, it's over.
These are not the same people who fought that war, this is a different kind of war, one that's (although not without merit in places) fundamentally stupid in so many respects. This is why there is so much backlash against it.
Feminism for example "ain't what it used to be".

Indeed, hence the TERF wars between some feminists and some trans folk (and their respective allies), where as far as I can tell, between them they're fighting for the greatest victimhood status. It's cringeworthy to watch.

For example, just this week in the UK:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45650462 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45650462)
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45642054 (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45642054)

The irony is that far from being inclusive, people end up being excluded.
It seems like this is more about women fearing men, than transgender. The boy Scouts have had female leaders for years, but that's perfectly fine because it's women looking after boys. Men who want to care for girls are considered to be nonces.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on October 22, 2018, 04:56:36 am
An interesting break down here on STEM take up at university level.

https://youtu.be/9_oQORZXLso
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: SiliconWizard on October 22, 2018, 05:22:36 am
The point of giving equal chances for all should never focus on any particular category - that's not only contradictory in nature, but has proven to fail in the long run. Politics usually know that perfectly well and use all kinds of stratagems to prove they're still right by forcing things and inevitably by making it easier for the category they want to promote.

Equal chances doesn't mean equal numbers.
You're not going to get people interested in some topic by claiming that they should be.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on November 10, 2018, 06:51:03 am
In case anyone is interested, James Bottomley wrote in a recent post (https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-discuss/2018-November/006257.html) to the Linux Foundation ksummit-discuss mailing list, that the reason they added the Linux Code of Conduct and Torvalds took a hiatus was
Quote
to deflect a highly unfavourable article in the New Yorker.

(Fixed the link.)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: rsjsouza on November 10, 2018, 02:42:43 pm
The link to your post seems off. Perhaps you wanted to link to the article below?
https://lwn.net/Articles/769117/
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on November 10, 2018, 03:12:58 pm
The link to your post seems off.

Fixed now.  No, I didn't mean the soothing voice of Jonathan Corbet. James Bottomley was Technical Advisory Board chair for 8 years, and acknowledges that the entire fiasco with the CoC in Linux was really an error.

I prefer honest, direct, blunt communication, you see.  May ruffle some feathers from time to time, but at least problems can be addressed, and not just-not-talked-about-because-talking-about-it-is-not-nice.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on November 10, 2018, 10:51:33 pm
Fundamentally, I don’t imagine most have a problem with a code of conduct.

Firstly it was not clear how the CoC would be enforced, including who or would be judge and jury.

Secondly, bear in mind the history of the behaviour of the author of the CoC that was chosen. The author of the CoC is not a contributor to the Linux kernel. If you’re looking at bullying, frankly their behaviour is worse than Torvalds, but the author gets away with it precisely because of their gender. The author believes they’re beyond critique, and does not understand the concept of compromise... reminds you of someone?

So you can see where this is going, a tiny minority of previously unconnected activists, many with no interest in working on the project itself, manage to gain leverage. The understandable push back is not with the CoC wording itself (which seems largely reasonable) but who it’s come from, the motivations of those people, and where it is going.

For example, the author of the CoC is anti-meritocracy, citing the few supporting papers they can find supporting that. I am not at all sure how that would work, especially in an open source world. Why would you want to let in crap code?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on November 11, 2018, 09:31:02 am
Fundamentally, I don’t imagine most have a problem with a code of conduct.
I fully agree. *That* particular CoC, its wording, its implications, and the way it was put in without discussion, was wrong.

My biggest problem with that CoC is that it really sneakily enshrines the current true problem in the Linux kernel development community: Getting your patches reviewed.  The CoC requires one to carefully consider any response to a patch submission, or risk having their maintainer punished for not punishing the reviewer due to incorrect tone in response.  This leads to eusocial/clique behaviour, where all submissions by "outsiders" are ignored, since any response has an unknown but high risk, but not responding has zero risk.  (Submitters are also treated differently depending on their email address: if they work for a known company, the risk is smaller; but if they have their own domain, or a non-conforming name, they are treated as a high risk.) I suspect that this is not an oversight, but a designed-in feature of this particular CoC, and desirable in the views of the original author.

The Debian CoC (https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct) avoids that completely.

I do admit that my view is probably clouded by personal experiences with overly "politically correct" people and their practice of using shunning/ignoring as an enforcement mechanism, and being used to and comfortable with the direct/blunt comms style on LKML having followed it more or less regularly for over two decades now. My most recent bug (https://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=146463168620574&w=4) fix (https://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=146463784122248&w=4) patches were completely ignored; they're still unfixed in 4.19.1, in case one wants to do some shenanigans with processes that execute a different binary than the kernel claims. I should probably re-submit them to kernel-janitors to get them taken care of.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on November 20, 2018, 06:33:47 pm
Physics Under SJW Attack: The Case of Alessandro Strumia - TFF-91

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOCIke7zLMo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOCIke7zLMo)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Wolfgang on November 21, 2018, 12:02:50 am
Physics Under SJW Attack: The Case of Alessandro Strumia - TFF-91

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOCIke7zLMo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOCIke7zLMo)

Political correctness has been invented by people who want to suppress the freedom of thought and freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech is not that anybody can say what *you* think, it is the freedom to say *the opposite* of what *you* think.
The PC people are like the Spanish inquisition, morally empowered to make a *better* world whatever lie it takes.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: edy on November 21, 2018, 01:37:50 am
Physics Under SJW Attack: The Case of Alessandro Strumia - TFF-91

OK, I watched the video. Interesting. This phenomenon seems to be pervading academic institutions the western world over, but in different forms and by different groups who perceive some inherent "bias" for their small representation in whatever field they wish to demonize and politicize it. Groups may be based on gender, sexual orientation, race,  religion, stance on Middle-East politics (BDS), etc. And the reason it can flourish in academic institutions is due to the energy, idealism, naivety and peer pressure influences on young minds who want to be part of the social circles and many times afraid to voice their opinions over louder shouting by so called "activists".  :palm:

I propose we replace real-life meetings with Virtual Reality where everyone gets a generic unisex robot-voiced AVATAR devoid of any an all characteristics that could possibly be used to differentiate or determine the real-world attributes of the person behind it.  Then let scientific debate, hiring, discussions and interactions occur there for fear that otherwise if participants met in real life they *may* actually bias themselves if not for this protective "shield".... Or wait, let's NOT since it seems this is being made into an issue when it really isn't one. The merit of papers and studies and theorems are based on their logical and experimental underpinnings. Give all scientists a public key "research ID number" that gives up absolutely no indication of who it is. Publish papers without names, only numbers. Don't even include the country of origin or institution, lest someone be biased against a certain culture, language, religious group, political actions of a country, war, etc. See how far that goes.

Sincerely,
D45F89DEFA31AD13FEADC031100  (<--- my new officially government-recognized legal name and sex)  :-DD
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on November 21, 2018, 03:27:56 am
Give all scientists a public key "research ID number" that gives up absolutely no indication of who it is. Publish papers without names, only numbers. Don't even include the country of origin or institution, lest someone be biased against a certain culture, language, religious group, political actions of a country, war, etc. See how far that goes.
The activists will never go for that. They are in a war on meritocracy.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: SiliconWizard on November 21, 2018, 03:53:03 am
Yeah. Everyone and their brother is against biases. Except for biases that favor them.

They can sugar-coat that basic consideration with all the political correctness and self-righteousness they want.
Or as someone once said, "the selfish are all those that don't think about me". ;D
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on November 21, 2018, 03:54:12 am
Give all scientists a public key "research ID number" that gives up absolutely no indication of who it is.
That's why I use a pseudonym: it reminds me that everything anyone writes about or responds to "Nominal Animal", is based on my work product.  Who I am, in the social sense, is irrelevant.  So, if someone writes "Nominal Animal is an asshat", it is easy for me to remember that it is only a reaction to what I've written on the net.  It is not about me, but about my output.  (One of those is something I can change, the other I cannot. That turns out, is quite important for certain personality types.)

I don't see why the same approach would not work for others.  By that I mean that gender simply should not be something anyone acknowledges in any way, in a professional environment.  Socially, when meeting face-to-face, sure; but when talking about work and research matters, keep gender and any and all social details and victim-group memberships out of it: it's completely irrelevant.



I know quite a few of the signatories to the "particlesforjustice" statement.

I keep thinking about how they are all silent about participating with people who have abused their spouses or children, but demand Strumia's ostracision -- "We hope that Strumia's professional colleagues and superiors will take all these points into careful consideration in all future decisions involving him." -- just because he expressed an unpopular view a view they object to.

I haven't seen/heard the talk, but if these (https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4952243/Strumia-CERN-Talk.pdf) are the slides, I don't see any kind of slurs or denigration or name-calling or otherwise ugly statements, just expression of a viewpoint backed with references.  How can anyone get "outraged" by that?

I'd understand outrage at such poor slides, maybe. I'd perfectly understand publishing a multi-author report tearing the references to bits, pointing out the weaknesses of the proposed model/viewpoint, if there are any; showing how laughable it is, if it is.  That is what poor presentations and papers normally get, if they are acknowledged at all.

I guess there were no weaknesses to point out, because the signatories had to resort to public demand for ostracision and exclusion instead?

Fuck. If an unpopular view is met with ostracision rather than rebuttal, our science is done.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on November 21, 2018, 03:57:58 am
Fuck. If an unpopular view is met with ostracision rather than rebuttal, our science is done.

In life, everything tends to reach a peak of advancement and then starts a downhill slide. Perhaps science in general has reached its peak, and is now starting on the downward path?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on November 21, 2018, 04:16:38 am
"We hope that Strumia's professional colleagues and superiors will take all these points into careful consideration in all future decisions involving him." -- just because he expressed an unpopular view.
I doubt the view is unpopular. Its just not liked by some people with power and privilege.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: DimitriP on November 21, 2018, 05:07:06 am
-"Strumia"
-"Let me have the envelope please"
-(opens envelope, pulls out the card and reads )
-"The name of a new subforum forum to cover the Strumia effect"*




Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on November 21, 2018, 06:09:39 am
Twitter mob “justice” has become a weekly occurance.

Faux outrage by even a single person can be leveraged to devastating effect, bypassing due process. Tim Hunt, the Nobel laureate is another example. It turns out his single nemesis had her own skeletons dwelling in her closet. Even the Guardianistas saw through it after some time of reflection.

This afternoon the most read news on the BBC website this afternoon has been Marks and Spencer’s lingerie display that’s apparently sexist, spurred on by a total of 1,400 retweets of a picture from a feminist. Lingerie is M&s’s bread and butter, underwear is probably what they’re most known for. And yet this was deserving of front page news. Of course, there’s all those “I’ll never shop at M&S again” self righteous numpties who have little else to concern them in their lives, bless.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on November 21, 2018, 06:12:57 am
This afternoon the most read news on the BBC website this afternoon has been Marks and Spencer’s lingerie display that’s apparently sexist, spurred on by a total of 1,400 retweets of a picture from a feminist. Lingerie is M&s’s bread and butter, underwear is probably what they’re most known for. And yet this was deserving of front page news. Of course, there’s all those “I’ll never shop at M&S again” self righteous numpties who have little else to concern them in their lives, bless.
M&S's share price seems to have risen this afternoon, so if this was staged to help short sellers it failed.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on November 21, 2018, 04:52:35 pm
By the way, I wonder if others have been following the Grievance Studies debacle, where three academics/ex-academics wrote a number of fake papers that were peer reviewed and accepted for publication in academic journals?

Four papers made it all the way to publication before the hoax was revealed. My favourite is the paper, “Our Struggle is My Struggle: Solidarity Feminism as an Intersectional Reply to Neoliberal and Choice,” where the authors took roughly 3,600 words of Chapter 12 of Volume 1 of ”Mein Kampf” and switched in fashionable grievance studies buzzwords.

What I find bizarre Is the way some in these fields are still in denial, of course pulling the victim card, rather than addressing the very real issue their chosen fields have in terms of rigor and epistemology.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/fake-news-comes-to-academia-1538520950 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/fake-news-comes-to-academia-1538520950)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kVk9a5Jcd1k (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kVk9a5Jcd1k)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on November 21, 2018, 10:13:17 pm
Good grief.  If this crap has reached engineering and particle physics, is there anyone left doing actual science?

In a perverse way, it is quite beautiful: it is a perfect thing to do, if the aim is to get those interested in things rather than people to turn away from science.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on November 21, 2018, 11:59:48 pm
By the way, I wonder if others have been following the Grievance Studies debacle, where three academics/ex-academics wrote a number of fake papers that were peer reviewed and accepted for publication in academic journals?
Four papers made it all the way to publication before the hoax was revealed. My favourite is the paper, “Our Struggle is My Struggle: Solidarity Feminism as an Intersectional Reply to Neoliberal and Choice,” where the authors took roughly 3,600 words of Chapter 12 of Volume 1 of ”Mein Kampf” and switched in fashionable grievance studies buzzwords.

I saw that at the time, hilarious!  :clap:

Quote
What I find bizarre Is the way some in these fields are still in denial

What I find bizarre is how "gender studies" et.al has grown to become full on departments in universities.
I can't think of a more useless field for people to waste their life in, you become practically unemployable. There is almost zero value to society from this "field" in general. In fact you could make a very good argument that it has a net negative effect on society.
Sure you've always had Arts degrees etc, but at least they are pretty benign.
As for any benefit from research into gender related issues (and there can be many important aspects to that, don't get me wrong), but that can be (and has been) handled just fine by the field of psychology, and in a rigorous scientific manner.

For those who want a daily laugh at the ridiculous papers these "fields" publish, follow RealPeerReview on twitter, hilarious stuff, but your head will get sore from the facepalms.
https://twitter.com/RealPeerReview (https://twitter.com/RealPeerReview)

Reminds of the infamous Melissa Click of Mizzou university fame when all that went down. Her PhD thesis  :palm:
"The Commodification of Femininity, Affluence and Whiteness in the Martha Stewart phenomenon.”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/maureensullivan/2015/11/11/why-do-parents-hate-paying-college-tuition-meet-missouri-professor-melissa-click/#547291463d7c (https://www.forbes.com/sites/maureensullivan/2015/11/11/why-do-parents-hate-paying-college-tuition-meet-missouri-professor-melissa-click/#547291463d7c)
https://scholarworks.umass.edu/dissertations/AAI3349715/ (https://scholarworks.umass.edu/dissertations/AAI3349715/)

This crap gets public funding  |O
Hell, I'd rather have money pissed away on Solar Roadways, uBeam, and Juicero, at least they are keeping real engineers employed gaining more experience in engineering.

Hungry has the right idea:
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/hungary-bans-gender-studies-universities/ (https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/hungary-bans-gender-studies-universities/)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on November 22, 2018, 12:03:50 am
Hungry has the right idea:
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/hungary-bans-gender-studies-universities/ (https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/hungary-bans-gender-studies-universities/)
Its hard to truly ban things like this. They tend to just morph into a aspect of something else, until the environment changes, and they can raise their heads again.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on November 22, 2018, 12:19:39 am
Hungry has the right idea:
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/hungary-bans-gender-studies-universities/ (https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/hungary-bans-gender-studies-universities/)
Its hard to truly ban things like this. They tend to just morph into a aspect of something else, until the environment changes, and they can raise their heads again.

You don't ban them, I'm not in favor of that. But you can remove public funding for them.

I think it was Jordan Peterson's suggestion to remove 25% funding from all public universities and let them fight it out what departments are really important  ;D
Of course the end result in that case would be all courses get cut by 25% which would suck.
Just like public funding should be removed for homeopathy courses:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-homeopathy-uk-alternative-medicine-hospital-camden-royal-london-hospital-for-integrated-medicine-a8253061.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-homeopathy-uk-alternative-medicine-hospital-camden-royal-london-hospital-for-integrated-medicine-a8253061.html)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on November 22, 2018, 12:32:08 am
Hungry has the right idea:
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/hungary-bans-gender-studies-universities/ (https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/hungary-bans-gender-studies-universities/)
Its hard to truly ban things like this. They tend to just morph into a aspect of something else, until the environment changes, and they can raise their heads again.
You don't ban them, I'm not in favor of that. But you can remove public funding for them.
Public funding is a broad brush. As soon as you trying to focus it people complain that this constrains academic freedom, which is a fair criticism. Focussed funding is almost all of the form "we are giving $X to Y for Z", such as specific funding to address cancer research.
I think it was Jordan Peterson's suggestion to remove 25% funding from all public universities and let them fight it out what departments are really important  ;D
Of course the end result in that case would be all courses get cut by 25% which would suck.
This has been tried. It doesn't cut everything by 25%. It closes down a lot of science and engineering activities. They have labs, and cost a lot, so they get cut. The humanities departments can be really cheap to run by comparison, and they attract a lot more students. Universities don't want to see they expensive, revenue creating, dorms and other facilities empty. That would just make their finances even worse. They cut the programs which will meet their new budget with the minimum reduction in student head count.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on November 22, 2018, 12:59:59 am
You don't ban them, I'm not in favor of that. But you can remove public funding for them.
Public funding is a broad brush. As soon as you trying to focus it people complain that this constrains academic freedom, which is a fair criticism. Focussed funding is almost all of the form "we are giving $X to Y for Z", such as specific funding to address cancer research.

Yes, but when that "academic freedom" starts offering courses in say homeopathy or paranormal research, or some other wacky anti-science obviously bullshit thing, it has to be the role of government to step in and say that's not an acceptable use of public funds. I think that's a valid role of government.
Gender studies can be approached from the "no or poor value to society" angle perhaps.
It it the role of government to ensure that public funds are not wasted, nor are used for things that are potentially detrimental to society. e.g. if gender studies courses are producing unemployable radicals, that could be detrimental to society.
Let's say a university wanted to use public funds to run a course in communist studies, nazi studies, or anti-authoritarian studies, how far do you let things go with public funds?
Same with the funding of religious teaching in public schools, it certainly is within the bounds of government to say that's not ok (or in the case of Australia, fund it against our constitution  |O )

This has been tried. It doesn't cut everything by 25%. It closes down a lot of science and engineering activities. They have labs, and cost a lot, so they get cut. The humanities departments can be really cheap to run by comparison, and they attract a lot more students. Universities don't want to see they expensive, revenue creating, dorms and other facilities empty. That would just make their finances even worse. They cut the programs which will meet their new budget with the minimum reduction in student head count.

Sadly I think you are right.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on November 22, 2018, 02:28:49 am
What's wrong with teaching religion in state schools? It makes sense to be, so long as it's not in the form of indoctrination. Educating students about different religious beliefs will give them a broader understanding of different cultures and make them more tolerant. For example, later in life when they start work and are dealing with a Muslim customer, they'll know about their dietary requirements when catering for them.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on November 22, 2018, 02:37:07 am
I think it was Jordan Peterson's suggestion to remove 25% funding from all public universities and let them fight it out what departments are really important  ;D
Of course the end result in that case would be all courses get cut by 25% which would suck.
That is what happened in University of Helsinki in 2017 (https://www.helsinki.fi/en/news/teaching-studying/university-of-helsinki-succeeds-in-adjusting-its-finances).  It is the only Finnish University (http://www.shanghairanking.com/World-University-Rankings-2018/Finland.html) in the Shanghai Top 100 (57th (http://www.shanghairanking.com/World-University-Rankings/University-of-Helsinki.html)).  The Finnish government decided to cut 60 M€ off of its funding, or about 15% off; about 9% of the total University income.

Rather than take into account which departments and programs produced research and graduates at an internationally acknowledged level, the administration decided that the equal-cut approach was more proper: all departments got the same relative cut, regardless of their actual performance.  It was mostly hidden in fixed costs (the departments must pay rent for the space they use, for example), to avoid a public discussion on which doctoral chairs would be cut. (They tried hard to keep that to zero in every department, cutting lecturers, TAs, and so on, instead.)

The sad part is, University of Helsinki already produces a big surplus of graduates from the humanities, while companies claim the work-related immigration rules should be dropped, because they cannot find capable educated workers. (Finland has a very heavy public sector, with over a quarter of the work force in the public sector. Most of the humanities graduates work in that sector, of course.)

What's wrong with teaching religion in state schools?
You cannot cram more and more to the curriculum. It is basically already too full, and many practical skills already omitted (from calculating taxes to critical thinking). Anything you add, means something else needs to be dropped.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on November 22, 2018, 03:16:24 am
What's wrong with teaching religion in state schools?
You cannot cram more and more to the curriculum. It is basically already too full, and many practical skills already omitted (from calculating taxes to critical thinking). Anything you add, means something else needs to be dropped.
You're making the assumption that no place already has religious eduction. RE was compulsory when I was at school in the UK and even though I thought it was boring at the time, I don't think it should be dropped, especially given the increasing risk of religious extremism we have these days.

Now I do agree that it shouldn't be taught as part of all university courses, but an hour of RE per week for children under 16, makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on November 22, 2018, 04:25:26 am
You don't ban them, I'm not in favor of that. But you can remove public funding for them.
Public funding is a broad brush. As soon as you trying to focus it people complain that this constrains academic freedom, which is a fair criticism. Focussed funding is almost all of the form "we are giving $X to Y for Z", such as specific funding to address cancer research.

Yes, but when that "academic freedom" starts offering courses in say homeopathy or paranormal research, or some other wacky anti-science obviously bullshit thing, it has to be the role of government to step in and say that's not an acceptable use of public funds. I think that's a valid role of government.
Gender studies can be approached from the "no or poor value to society" angle perhaps.
It it the role of government to ensure that public funds are not wasted, nor are used for things that are potentially detrimental to society. e.g. if gender studies courses are producing unemployable radicals, that could be detrimental to society.
Let's say a university wanted to use public funds to run a course in communist studies, nazi studies, or anti-authoritarian studies, how far do you let things go with public funds?
Same with the funding of religious teaching in public schools, it certainly is within the bounds of government to say that's not ok (or in the case of Australia, fund it against our constitution  |O )
Homeopathy looks stupid now, but it wasn't so obviously stupid when it started. They didn't know about atoms, and how sufficient dilution would actually leave nothing at all. Limiting academic freedom is like limiting speech - you end up suppressing the truly interesting and original along with the bad.

Public universities should be teaching about communism, and nazism. Its important people genuinely know about these things. What that shouldn't be doing is indoctrinating people in those things as ideologies. "You must research and teach. You will be kicked out if caught indoctrinating" seems to be the general approach that's needed, although monitoring this would be very hard.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: SiliconWizard on November 22, 2018, 04:57:34 am
Public universities should be teaching about communism, and nazism. Its important people genuinely know about these things. What that shouldn't be doing is indoctrinating people in those things as ideologies. "You must research and teach. You will be kicked out if caught indoctrinating" seems to be the general approach that's needed, although monitoring this would be very hard.

I agree they should be teaching those topics, as long as the way those are taught is neutral and factual, which is no small endeavor. Neutral is hard, and important though. Even teaching those topics with too obviously negative biases could lead to subtle indoctrination just as effectively as putting them in a positive light. Another important point IMO is that those topics should only be taught to students that are mature enough and have shown they have developed enough sense of criticism (which should be the basic goal of university teaching anyway).

Funding research is another thing. Unless the research topics in question are proven clearly neutral and only have historical goals, I don't think they should be publicly funded. This is way too slippery.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on November 22, 2018, 06:26:31 am
What's wrong with teaching religion in state schools?
You cannot cram more and more to the curriculum. It is basically already too full, and many practical skills already omitted (from calculating taxes to critical thinking). Anything you add, means something else needs to be dropped.
You're making the assumption that no place already has religious eduction. RE was compulsory when I was at school in the UK and even though I thought it was boring at the time, I don't think it should be dropped, especially given the increasing risk of religious extremism we have these days.

Now I do agree that it shouldn't be taught as part of all university courses, but an hour of RE per week for children under 16, makes perfect sense.

afaiu that is how it is here, it is in school when you are under ~16 and it covers all the major religions though it naturally has more on Christianity
and I think it is mostly a "cultural" approach to the subject rather than a religious one
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on November 22, 2018, 06:47:05 am
You're making the assumption that no place already has religious eduction. RE was compulsory when I was at school in the UK and even though I thought it was boring at the time, I don't think it should be dropped, especially given the increasing risk of religious extremism we have these days.

Now I do agree that it shouldn't be taught as part of all university courses, but an hour of RE per week for children under 16, makes perfect sense.
An oddity until the national curriculum stuff was the UK made school from 5 to 16 compulsory, but the only compulsory subject was religion. Hence, when I was at school we had to have one lesson a week tagged "religious knowledge". One of the school's religious knowledge teachers was a Christian, and she made some effort to teach something about Christianity. The others 2 were atheists, and used their lessons for class discussions on any topic that came to mind. They made it more like a debating class than a religion class, really.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on November 22, 2018, 07:27:28 am
What's wrong with teaching religion in state schools?
You cannot cram more and more to the curriculum. It is basically already too full, and many practical skills already omitted (from calculating taxes to critical thinking). Anything you add, means something else needs to be dropped.
You're making the assumption that no place already has religious eduction. RE was compulsory when I was at school in the UK and even though I thought it was boring at the time, I don't think it should be dropped, especially given the increasing risk of religious extremism we have these days.

Now I do agree that it shouldn't be taught as part of all university courses, but an hour of RE per week for children under 16, makes perfect sense.

afaiu that is how it is here, it is in school when you are under ~16 and it covers all the major religions though it naturally has more on Christianity
and I think it is mostly a "cultural" approach to the subject rather than a religious one
Here, too.  I'm definitely not making an assumption of no religious education; I meant it in the more general sense that any change in curriculum should be viewed as replacing something else, as it is already crammed so full of everything it is impossible to just add to it. Even a tiny little bit.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on November 22, 2018, 10:25:12 am
Public universities should be teaching about communism, and nazism. Its important people genuinely know about these things. What that shouldn't be doing is indoctrinating people in those things as ideologies. "You must research and teach. You will be kicked out if caught indoctrinating" seems to be the general approach that's needed, although monitoring this would be very hard.

That's the whole point. These gender studies programs (and entire university departments) are producing indoctrinated people who see sexism/raceism/whatereism in everything. This is a bad thing and can be argued is ultimately of no value or a detriment to society. What value are these indoctrination degrees?

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on November 22, 2018, 10:35:16 am
That's the whole point. These gender studies programs (and entire university departments) are producing indoctrinated people who see sexism/raceism/whatereism in everything. This is a bad thing and can be argued is ultimately of no value or a detriment to society. What value are these indoctrination degrees?

They're of value to the people who earn money providing them, and people who's goal is to indoctrinate others.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on November 22, 2018, 10:45:59 am
Same with the funding of religious teaching in public schools, it certainly is within the bounds of government to say that's not ok

In Australia more than 50% are christians, therefore it makes sense to keep teaching that, why not?
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: james_s on November 22, 2018, 10:50:57 am
Same with the funding of religious teaching in public schools, it certainly is within the bounds of government to say that's not ok

In Australia more than 50% are christians, therefore it makes sense to keep teaching that, why not?

Because ~50% of the people are not christians for one thing. A larger reason is if the law is anything like that in the US which specifically prevents the government from establishing an official religion. You are free to practice any religion you please, the government does not need to be involved in this though. If you want a religious education there are places for that, a public school is not one of those places.

The problem with teaching religion is that most people only want to teach or emphasize their own.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Circlotron on November 22, 2018, 12:55:18 pm
The problem with teaching religion is that most people only want to teach or emphasize their own.
And why wouldn't a religious (or non-religious) person want to emphasize their own point of view over someone else's?
In any case, in some parts of the world now you can be prosecuted for "hate speech" simply for quoting texts from someone else's "holy" book, while the adherents of some of those texts are free to quote them as much as they like.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Wolfgang on November 22, 2018, 01:07:32 pm
Public universities should be teaching about communism, and nazism. Its important people genuinely know about these things. What that shouldn't be doing is indoctrinating people in those things as ideologies. "You must research and teach. You will be kicked out if caught indoctrinating" seems to be the general approach that's needed, although monitoring this would be very hard.

That's the whole point. These gender studies programs (and entire university departments) are producing indoctrinated people who see sexism/raceism/whatereism in everything. This is a bad thing and can be argued is ultimately of no value or a detriment to society. What value are these indoctrination degrees?

You can always say: Dont mess with me. I've got a PHD in indoctrination !  >:D
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on November 22, 2018, 02:34:19 pm
Same with the funding of religious teaching in public schools, it certainly is within the bounds of government to say that's not ok
In Australia more than 50% are christians, therefore it makes sense to keep teaching that, why not?

The largest "religious" group in Australia is actually non-religious, 30% at the last census. Next highest was catholic at 22%. And those religion stats are hugely skewed due to otherwise essentially non-religious people putting down the religion of their upbringing (tricky wording in the census ensured this). Or simply marking a religion because they think it means they are good person etc.
And if you knew anything about Australia, we are one the most non-religious countries around, the majority don't give a toss about religion here. In my estimation the true "non-religious" population here has to be closer to 80%.
Try being a christian in Australia and thank god at a public event, the entire crowd will actually laugh and snigger at you.

Why not teach it in schools, because the state has no right to be teaching religion to our students. In fact it is against our constitution, as ruled the other year by the supreme court that the government is not to fund religion in schools. In the actual case it was about chaplains in public schools.

Not to mention indoctrinating bullshit to children.
By all means learn about religions (and the countless failed ones) in the history or cultural studies class along with our native aboriginal creation stories, but a focused religious class does not belong in our publicly funded school system.
If you want to teach your kids that rubbish, go to church on the weekend or after school.
Giving religion a special pass because it's religion is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: EEVblog on November 22, 2018, 02:52:31 pm
If you want to teach about religion in schools then you have to approach it from a critical point of view.
i.e. "There is no evidence at all that the claims of any of the religions are true, but many people believe they are true for cultural, social family upbrining, or personal needs reasons. And many really do believe it so much it's true to them, so you have to understand that. End of class."
It should be a special one-off thing like sex-ed.
Teaching it any other way is tantamount to indoctrination in the beliefs of religion and should not be state funded or endorsed. Those that don't like that should go live in a theocracy, Australia is not one of them.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: tooki on November 22, 2018, 11:26:16 pm
Public universities should be teaching about communism, and nazism. Its important people genuinely know about these things. What that shouldn't be doing is indoctrinating people in those things as ideologies. "You must research and teach. You will be kicked out if caught indoctrinating" seems to be the general approach that's needed, although monitoring this would be very hard.

That's the whole point. These gender studies programs (and entire university departments) are producing indoctrinated people who see sexism/raceism/whatereism in everything. This is a bad thing and can be argued is ultimately of no value or a detriment to society. What value are these indoctrination degrees?
I also have little esteem for gender studies (and related things like gay studies). I don’t, however, think they indoctrinate as such. The people who choose those areas of study are already of that mindset. It’s not so much indoctrination as it is echo chamber.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on November 22, 2018, 11:40:42 pm
More than 52%, according to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Australia
I wonder what sort of christians have you met in your life to have such an aversion. If democracy had something to do with the powers of the majority... well, there you have it.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Howardlong on November 23, 2018, 12:26:05 am
The way grievance studies is “taught” is very much as if it is an orthodox religion though.

Questioning the dogma is met with shutting down of deiscussion and in some cases excommunication. They are simply not open to their ideaology being debated, often by quite literally stating “it’s not up for debate”. The lack of ability to self reflect is astonishing.

As an example, the Bret Weinstein and Heather Hayling controversy at Evergreen State College laid this out so overtly. Life-long Democrats, they were hung out to dry by the students, faculty and administration. The faculty and administration have doubled and trpled down, and consequently their enrollment is over 50% down this year. Of course, the college blames Weinstein, not themselves. That’s their MO, even in the face of the bleedin’ obvious, they’re incapable of self reflection.

Then there’s the Lindsay Shepherd case, a masters candidate who  (legally) recorded a meeting with her superiors about her use of a video in a communications class that discussed gender pronouns. It’s difficult to imagine how they could possibly have considered this right, it was one of the best examples of a kangaroo court I’ve encountered.

More recently there is the case of Valerie Flokstra, a similar scenario to Shepherd’s in many ways in terms of the kangaroo court. Her “crime” was to suggest that there may be a connection in increased frequency of autism in the offspring of women who’ve previously had multiple terminations. She was connecting two studies, one connecting autism with premature birth and another connecting premature birth to those women having previously had multiple terminations. Of course, to even suggest the mere possibility such a correlation in a pro-choice dominated regime didn’t go down well.

To me the similarity of the way the dogma is defended, with doubters being treated as blasphemers, makes grievance studies appear very much like a religion. As soon as you hear “not up for debate”, the alarm bells should be ringing very loudly.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on November 23, 2018, 02:13:49 am
The way grievance studies is “taught” is very much as if it is an orthodox religion though.
A problem with fighting against this in universities is that the oldest and most prestigious universities mostly started out ONLY teaching orthodox religion, so its at their very core. Newton could only be a professor at Cambridge because he was CofE. By that time CofE theology was still an element of every course, even though it was not the main part of most courses. The industrial revolution was mostly built my people who did not go to university, because they were from non-conformist religions. The first time a non-CofE person in the UK could go to university was in the 1820s, when Jeremy Bentham built UCL.

The current bad situation is not new. Its just recycling long established practices.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on November 23, 2018, 03:38:46 am
If you want a religious education there are places for that, a public school is not one of those places.

The problem with teaching religion is that most people only want to teach or emphasize their own.
I agree that the government shouldn't be involved in deciding one's religion, but that doesn't mean schools shouldn't be allowed to educate children about religion. The problem of focusing too much on one religion can be overcome by making the syllabus focus equally on all major religions and testing to ensure that goal is being met.

The purpose of religious education should be to give children a broad perspective on region and ethics, to enable them to make up their own minds. If RE is not taught in schools then children will only get one perspective. Their parents might force them to go to church, mosque, temple etc. where they're taught that anyone with a different region is bad or they tell them any anyone who practices a religion is bad and only atheists are good people.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: langwadt on November 23, 2018, 04:34:33 am
If you want a religious education there are places for that, a public school is not one of those places.

The problem with teaching religion is that most people only want to teach or emphasize their own.
I agree that the government shouldn't be involved in deciding one's religion, but that doesn't mean schools shouldn't be allowed to educate children about religion. The problem of focusing too much on one religion can be overcome by making the syllabus focus equally on all major religions and testing to ensure that goal is being met.

The purpose of religious education should be to give children a broad perspective on region and ethics, to enable them to make up their own minds. If RE is not taught in schools then children will only get one perspective. Their parents might force them to go to church, mosque, temple etc. where they're taught that anyone with a different region is bad or they tell them any anyone who practices a religion is bad and only atheists are good people.

when I was in school all the jehovas witness kids were exempt from religion classes, they might hear something "dangerous"

Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on November 23, 2018, 05:35:57 am
If you want a religious education there are places for that, a public school is not one of those places.

The problem with teaching religion is that most people only want to teach or emphasize their own.
I agree that the government shouldn't be involved in deciding one's religion, but that doesn't mean schools shouldn't be allowed to educate children about religion. The problem of focusing too much on one religion can be overcome by making the syllabus focus equally on all major religions and testing to ensure that goal is being met.

The purpose of religious education should be to give children a broad perspective on region and ethics, to enable them to make up their own minds. If RE is not taught in schools then children will only get one perspective. Their parents might force them to go to church, mosque, temple etc. where they're taught that anyone with a different region is bad or they tell them any anyone who practices a religion is bad and only atheists are good people.

when I was in school all the jehovas witness kids were exempt from religion classes, they might hear something "dangerous"
I've heard that too. I think that sort of nonsense shouldn't be allowed. Everyone should have to participate.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: MrMobodies on November 23, 2018, 10:06:19 am
I remember this article some years ago:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/update-kindergarten-teacher-denies-legos-to-boys-in-name-of-gender-equity (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/update-kindergarten-teacher-denies-legos-to-boys-in-name-of-gender-equity)

I found it outrageous and I see it happening more often.
I saw all kinds of discrimination in my school years but not like this.
Back then it was more to do with religion, if you have some kind of disability, where you are from and what class you came from and how much your parents earn and so on.

I find there are lots these girls/female only coding courses these days with grants and in places where they don't teach much.
It would be good if they can recognise that and extend the courtesy in the name of equality and whether it is running a separate class for both genders.
At least they'd set a good example.

I suppose it also depends on what part of the country you are from.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on November 23, 2018, 08:18:49 pm
I remember this article some years ago:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/update-kindergarten-teacher-denies-legos-to-boys-in-name-of-gender-equity (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/update-kindergarten-teacher-denies-legos-to-boys-in-name-of-gender-equity)

I found it outrageous and I see it happening more often.
I saw all kinds of discrimination in my school years but not like this.
Back then it was more to do with religion, if you have some kind of disability, where you are from and what class you came from and how much your parents earn and so on.

I find there are lots these girls/female only coding courses these days with grants and in places where they don't teach much.
It would be good if they can recognise that and extend the courtesy in the name of equality and whether it is running a separate class for both genders.
At least they'd set a good example.

I suppose it also depends on what part of the country you are from.
I hope she was also banning the girls from playing with dolls, so the boys can.

At the end of the article it talks about boys being behind at school, which has been the case in the UK for a long time. Girls have been getting better GCSE (exams at the end of year eleven, when the students have turned 16) results than boys for a long time. There are various theories about this but I think it's because girls are generally more submissive and likely to do what their told than boys who are more likely to rebel.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on November 23, 2018, 08:30:53 pm
At the end of the article it talks about boys being behind at school, which has been the case in the UK for a long time. Girls have been getting better GCSE (exams at the end of year eleven, when the students have turned 16) results than boys for a long time. There are various theories about this but I think it's because girls are generally more submissive and likely to do what their told than boys who are more likely to rebel.
Its simple. When boys were performing much better than girls, they prioritised evening up the boy's and girl's scores. If you ask people to do that, what is the most practical route to fulfilling the goal? Push up the girl's scores, or depress the boy's scores? Obviously, you create a more hostile environment for boys, and push down their scores. There you have the basic reason that the performance of the entire education sector has fallen, and really bright kids have nothing to challenge them in a modern school.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on November 23, 2018, 09:02:09 pm
At the end of the article it talks about boys being behind at school, which has been the case in the UK for a long time. Girls have been getting better GCSE (exams at the end of year eleven, when the students have turned 16) results than boys for a long time. There are various theories about this but I think it's because girls are generally more submissive and likely to do what their told than boys who are more likely to rebel.
Its simple. When boys were performing much better than girls, they prioritised evening up the boy's and girl's scores. If you ask people to do that, what is the most practical route to fulfilling the goal? Push up the girl's scores, or depress the boy's scores? Obviously, you create a more hostile environment for boys, and push down their scores. There you have the basic reason that the performance of the entire education sector has fallen, and really bright kids have nothing to challenge them in a modern school.
If anything it's the other way round. The recent exam overhaul has made it more equal.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/aug/23/gcses-boys-close-gap-on-girls-after-exams-overhaul (https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/aug/23/gcses-boys-close-gap-on-girls-after-exams-overhaul)
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on November 23, 2018, 09:08:58 pm
At the end of the article it talks about boys being behind at school, which has been the case in the UK for a long time. Girls have been getting better GCSE (exams at the end of year eleven, when the students have turned 16) results than boys for a long time. There are various theories about this but I think it's because girls are generally more submissive and likely to do what their told than boys who are more likely to rebel.
Its simple. When boys were performing much better than girls, they prioritised evening up the boy's and girl's scores. If you ask people to do that, what is the most practical route to fulfilling the goal? Push up the girl's scores, or depress the boy's scores? Obviously, you create a more hostile environment for boys, and push down their scores. There you have the basic reason that the performance of the entire education sector has fallen, and really bright kids have nothing to challenge them in a modern school.
If anything it's the other way round. The recent exam overhaul has made it more equal.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/aug/23/gcses-boys-close-gap-on-girls-after-exams-overhaul (https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/aug/23/gcses-boys-close-gap-on-girls-after-exams-overhaul)
They recently overhauled the exams, made them more boy friendly (more hard numerical and one sentence answers), and less girl friendly (less soft, less precisely markable, paragraph length answers), and the scores have evened up. What a surprise.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on November 23, 2018, 09:16:11 pm
At the end of the article it talks about boys being behind at school, which has been the case in the UK for a long time. Girls have been getting better GCSE (exams at the end of year eleven, when the students have turned 16) results than boys for a long time. There are various theories about this but I think it's because girls are generally more submissive and likely to do what their told than boys who are more likely to rebel.
Its simple. When boys were performing much better than girls, they prioritised evening up the boy's and girl's scores. If you ask people to do that, what is the most practical route to fulfilling the goal? Push up the girl's scores, or depress the boy's scores? Obviously, you create a more hostile environment for boys, and push down their scores. There you have the basic reason that the performance of the entire education sector has fallen, and really bright kids have nothing to challenge them in a modern school.
If anything it's the other way round. The recent exam overhaul has made it more equal.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/aug/23/gcses-boys-close-gap-on-girls-after-exams-overhaul (https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/aug/23/gcses-boys-close-gap-on-girls-after-exams-overhaul)
They recently overhauled the exams, made them more boy friendly (more hard numerical and one sentence answers), and less girl friendly (less soft, less precisely markable, paragraph length answers), and the scores have evened up. What a surprise.
It could also be the increased focus on exams as boys can't be bothered with coursework and might be better at handling the exam pressure.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on November 23, 2018, 09:32:11 pm
They recently overhauled the exams, made them more boy friendly (more hard numerical and one sentence answers), and less girl friendly (less soft, less precisely markable, paragraph length answers), and the scores have evened up. What a surprise.
It could also be the increased focus on exams as boys can't be bothered with coursework and might be better at handling the exam pressure.
That goes hand in hand with what I said about soft versus hard answers. Most coursework has very little of the "give me a solid question, and I'll give you a solid answer" type material that suits boys better. The requirements for most coursework are so vague that hitting the marks, and scoring well, has more to do with having a teacher who can guide you about examiner expectations, than knowing and understanding the topic. Neither boys nor girls respond well to woolly goals, but they seem to have a greater ability to cause boys to disconnect.

At the time when people started complaining about boys doing better than girls, girls were scoring better on things like English. It should be no surprise that they made every topic more like English, with an emphasis on wordy submissions.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on November 23, 2018, 10:31:17 pm
They recently overhauled the exams, made them more boy friendly (more hard numerical and one sentence answers), and less girl friendly (less soft, less precisely markable, paragraph length answers), and the scores have evened up. What a surprise.
It could also be the increased focus on exams as boys can't be bothered with coursework and might be better at handling the exam pressure.
That goes hand in hand with what I said about soft versus hard answers. Most coursework has very little of the "give me a solid question, and I'll give you a solid answer" type material that suits boys better. The requirements for most coursework are so vague that hitting the marks, and scoring well, has more to do with having a teacher who can guide you about examiner expectations, than knowing and understanding the topic. Neither boys nor girls respond well to woolly goals, but they seem to have a greater ability to cause boys to disconnect.

At the time when people started complaining about boys doing better than girls, girls were scoring better on things like English. It should be no surprise that they made every topic more like English, with an emphasis on wordy submissions.
In all seriousness, I don't think gender has anything to do with this. I think it was an unintended consequence. I don't remember maths and science coursework being anything like English. It mostly consisted of experiments with a clear analysis, rather than fluff, but that was over 20 years ago, so it might have changed since. It does prove though that courses can be designed to favour boys over girls and vice versa, which is interesting and agree that they shouldn't be a conscious effort to make girls and boys get equal grades.

I believe there is merit in both coursework and exams. Exams ensure the student is capable of working independently and isn't copying anyone, but they don't mirror reality. In the real world just remembering things is pointless, especially in the age of the Internet and employers want people to work collaboratively, hence coursework is a good idea, but more emphasis should be placed on external verification, to reduce teacher bias and cheating. If a student gets a low exam grade, but scores highly on coursework, then it should be investigated, as it's likely they cheated.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Nominal Animal on November 23, 2018, 10:32:43 pm
The tragicomic thing about gender differences is that it's not about gender, really: it is about the differences between individuals.

We have people who are interested in things, and people who are interested in people.  We have people who are proficient with language, but weak on spatial and mathematical thinking.  These all vary between individuals, but it just happens that there is a significant difference in the statistical distribution of those variables between genders, and so people make it a gender issue.

[Ninja'd by Hero999, it seems!]
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on November 23, 2018, 10:48:22 pm
I believe there is merit in both coursework and exams. Exams ensure the student is capable of working independently and isn't copying anyone, but they don't mirror reality. In the real world just remembering things is pointless, especially in the age of the Internet and employers want people to work collaboratively, hence coursework is a good idea, but more emphasis should be placed on external verification, to reduce teacher bias and cheating. If a student gets a low exam grade, but scores highly on coursework, then it should be investigated, as it's likely they cheated.
I love the idea of coursework, but in reality it is very problematic. Coursework means being sick on the wrong day, or just having a bad day, doesn't screw things up for the candidate. It has the potential to probe the candidate's abilities deeper, because more time is available. On the other hand, there used to be a lot more time available for probing people's abilities in the exams than there is today. There aren't many 3 hour exams left. When I was at school only a few specialised exams, like multiple choice papers, were ever less than 3 hours. So, it doesn't appear that the current system is very interested in in depth testing. Coursework is too easy to game, and policing it is nearly impossible. I don't see how that could ever be fixed.

If you can get a high mark in an exam by simply remembering, its a terrible exam. Some percentage of questions are always going to require recited answers, but if a large percentage don't require some amount of analysis and merging of multiple pieces of knowledge the exam is broken by design.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: analogo on November 24, 2018, 12:38:21 am
In the real world just remembering things is pointless, especially in the age of the Internet

Most of us are paid well because we remember things better than other people and we don't have to look them up on the internet. What was Ohm's law again?

Remembering things instead of looking them up is faster. Faster = more productive. More productive = more valuable.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: Zero999 on November 24, 2018, 01:16:39 am
In the real world just remembering things is pointless, especially in the age of the Internet

Most of us are paid well because we remember things better than other people and we don't have to look them up on the internet. What was Ohm's law again?

Remembering things instead of looking them up is faster. Faster = more productive. More productive = more valuable.
But people only remember things they use regularly. I think it's safe to say most people here have forgotten most of what they had to remember, to pass their exams. Simple Ohm's law is easy, but how about the less commonly used formulae, can you remember them? If you know P and R, can you calculate V? I think most people forget that. Of course I could work it out, but it's quicker to Google it.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on November 24, 2018, 01:36:01 am
In the real world just remembering things is pointless, especially in the age of the Internet

Most of us are paid well because we remember things better than other people and we don't have to look them up on the internet. What was Ohm's law again?

Remembering things instead of looking them up is faster. Faster = more productive. More productive = more valuable.
But people only remember things they use regularly. I think it's safe to say most people here have forgotten most of what they had to remember, to pass their exams. Simple Ohm's law is easy, but how about the less commonly used formulae, can you remember them? If you know P and R, can you calculate V? I think most people forget that. Of course I could work it out, but it's quicker to Google it.
In exams people are only expected to remember, or be able derive on the fly, a modest pool of relationships that they have recently studied, and very recently revised on. If they can't remember those in the exam, how will they remember whatever pool of relationships are relevant for their day to day work? Its not an unreasonable test of ability.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on November 24, 2018, 03:27:43 am
In exams people are only expected to remember, or be able derive on the fly, a modest pool of relationships that they have recently studied, and very recently revised on.

I disagree with this. Although many people scrape through exams by last minute cramming, this is not the best way to pass them. In all the exams I have done well on I knew the material off by heart before the exams came around and did no last minute revision for them. In fact, when I was doing O-levels (16+, GCSE, whetever they were being called at the time) I used the revision time to go swimming or go out and do other stuff, anything to clear my mind of the exam material. Cramming leads to stress, and stress leads to poor performance.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: coppice on November 24, 2018, 04:08:00 am
In exams people are only expected to remember, or be able derive on the fly, a modest pool of relationships that they have recently studied, and very recently revised on.

I disagree with this. Although many people scrape through exams by last minute cramming, this is not the best way to pass them. In all the exams I have done well on I knew the material off by heart before the exams came around and did no last minute revision for them. In fact, when I was doing O-levels (16+, GCSE, whetever they were being called at the time) I used the revision time to go swimming or go out and do other stuff, anything to clear my mind of the exam material. Cramming leads to stress, and stress leads to poor performance.
That's fantastic. You got 100% in every exam? No need for revision at all?

I'm not clear what I wrote that you disagree with.
Title: Re: Gender politics has now infected engineering as well.
Post by: IanB on November 24, 2018, 04:17:00 am
In exams people are only expected to remember, or be able derive on the fly, a modest pool of relationships that they have recently studied, and very recently revised on.
I'm not clear what I wrote that you disagree with.