Author Topic: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?  (Read 7610 times)

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Offline cdev

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2018, 08:28:00 pm »
In equatorial zones, people will -somehow- have to live around the coastal areas or high on mountains (where its likely cooler) or move closer to the poles - or pay a huge amount of money to the owners of the resource. Or evolve faster, like fungi do. (Not feasible, though) Actually, according to emerging analyses of reptile vs mammalian and avian thermal tolerance and the rates of fungal vs. mammalian evolution, we're in danger of huge increases in invasive fungal infections as average temps anywhere get closer and closer to our body temps. Something similar happened on MIR, because of the high radiation (which increases the rate of mutations, both successful and unsuccessful) and moist and wet conditions. Fungi evolved so fast it became able to eat plastics (electrical wire insulation) and other materials. (causing a fire - part of a chain of events that led to the deorbiting of Mir.)

Millions of years ago, during mass extinctions, our and birds high body temperatures saved our warm blooded ancestors from the fate of other species, but pathogenic fungi evolve so much faster than we do that as climates get warmer and more similar to our own internal climate fungi will evolve to be much better at eating us long before we get better at resisting it.

if... average global temps in some areas get closer to our body temps.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 09:18:30 pm by cdev »
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Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2018, 08:35:05 pm »
Space heating at 52%

I know in council owned properties back around 1970's in certain cities they used communal boilers and they were only just getting rid of them on refurbishment projects a couple of years ago and they giving the residents their own boiler and I heard they were not happy about it.

I went to Amsterdam once and it was cold.

A year later when I went back I saw most streets in the city area with floodlights outside the pubs and shops with infrared looking lights and they were giving out lots of heat.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2018, 08:42:42 pm »
People could wear collars that contained Peltier devices and heat sinks that pressed against their carotid artery with a plug for power that IDed itself when plugged in - a meter on them so they could be billed for the energy they expended staying alive.

Must read: The original legal rationale requiring only commercial vendors provide new essentials if somebody already charges money for them.

Water is supposed to become the "white gold" or "Blue gold" of the 21st century, potentially more valuable than any other commodity.
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Offline MrMobodies

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2018, 09:13:42 pm »
Water is supposed to become the "white gold" or "Blue gold" of the 21st century, potentially more valuable than any other commodity.

When they pay for it as a unit rather than a service where the money would go towards recycling and filtering the water.
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2018, 10:02:13 pm »
Space heating at 52%

I know in council owned properties back around 1970's in certain cities they used communal boilers and they were only just getting rid of them on refurbishment projects a couple of years ago and they giving the residents their own boiler and I heard they were not happy about it.

I went to Amsterdam once and it was cold.

A year later when I went back I saw most streets in the city area with floodlights outside the pubs and shops with infrared looking lights and they were giving out lots of heat.

district heating is still very much a thing, here the coal fired power plant can reach 90% efficiency making both electricity and heating, trash incineration and a cement factory also put their waste heat into the system. Apple big new data center is also going to put the waste energy in their cooling into district heating

 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2018, 10:14:15 pm »
With rising temperatures cooling will become more relevant, while heating gets much less important. Another point is rising wealth in hotter countries like China or India. So an affordable HVAC could actually be a bad thing  :popcorn:

For cooling it also very much depends on the conditions. It's much easier to cool, if it's not as hot. Also humidity can make a big impact: with high humidity there is additional heat from water condensation. At low humidity one can even use evaporation cooling, if some water is available.
It is also important to see the night temperature: in some areas just ventilating at night can do quite a lot.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2018, 12:43:23 am »
5 times improvement on existing mature aircon tech efficiency?
Not asking for much...
I suspect this will bring out many wacko ideas.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2018, 01:01:38 am »
5 times improvement on existing mature aircon tech efficiency?

The electrical improvement envisioned is about  two times improvement over the from the wall efficiency of a 3-star Indian minisplit ... which is only COP 3 for cooling from 35C to 27C. COP 6 for 8 degree difference isn't really a problem with existing technology. Fitting it into the price point together with all the other requirements is a bit of a challenge.

RMI makes a much better case for the contest than the contest site.

PS. well until they said this
Quote
A number of emerging technologies—such as deep space radiative cooling, thermoelectric cooling, thermionic cooling, magnetocaloric cooling, thermoacoustic cooling, advanced dehumidification using improved desiccant materials

Only radiative cooling and advanced dehumidification are worth a damn. Skycool desperately needs better marketing, they should really try to get into this contest somehow, but I kinda doubt they will, why break the habit of staying completely obscure ... a completely impractical solution with the same bloody name gets a TED talk and spammed all over the web, then an academic paper doing pretty much the same thing as them gets into bloody Science. Neither of them even reference Skycool, even though they have had a commercial system for over a decade. Liquid desiccant systems meanwhile fit air-conditioners really nicely. For the rest it's just a question of fitting in a more state of the art AC system and maybe some thin PV panels if there is money left.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 01:31:00 am by Marco »
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2018, 01:17:39 am »
Its a matter of life or death in parts of india where the temperatures recently have soared to record levels, with the heat drying up the ground rivers ending leaving only parched arroyo where the river once flowed, hundreds of miles from the ocean, leaving crops shriveled and entire villages without water.

The last thing they need is a huge power bill on top of it. In rising global temps an air conditioner won't be a luxury, it will be a life support system. Without which unspeakably horrible things will happen.

Similarly in the US Southwest. Areas are depleting huge aquifers. Science has recently revealed that not so long ago, we had 100 year long droughts during which time trees grew on the beds of high Sierra lakes. The rains came back abruptly, so rapidly those trees that grew during droughts are still there, hundreds of feet underwater, in some cases these are huge trees, hundreds of feet tall.

That means that the US west has been far drier than it has ever been in the time since Europeans came, not that long before then. When we built the cities there we didn't know this but we know it now.

Its essential we figure out better, cheaper ways to cool people and provide water in the desert without using up too much energy..
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 02:01:16 am by cdev »
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Offline cdev

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2018, 01:41:21 am »
Water is supposed to become the "white gold" or "Blue gold" of the 21st century, potentially more valuable than any other commodity.

When they pay for it as a unit rather than a service where the money would go towards recycling and filtering the water.


These are all worth reading. re: water

http://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National_Office_Pubs/brief4_1.pdf

http://www.ciel.org/Publications/GATS_WaterHR_28Oct03.pdf

https://www.foe.co.uk/sites/default/files/downloads/gats_stealing_water.pdf

http://members.iinet.net.au/~jenks/GATS_BCg2001.html


« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 01:53:49 am by cdev »
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2018, 02:00:52 am »
In rising global temps an air conditioner won't be a luxury, it will be a life support system. Without which unspeakably horrible things will happen.
If the point of air conditioning is to cool *people*, the current implementation of cooling the entire building is hardly the most efficient way to accomplish that goal. Hence why I really like the idea of developing an open hardware device to detect where the people are in the room and direct the cooling at them.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2018, 02:05:02 am »
Thats a great idea. It makes a real lot of sense to only cool rooms where there are people occupying them, at the very least. Also, we dont have to cool rooms to 72 degrees or even colder. 78 or 80 works just as well. When i run Ac, I set the thermostat to 80. But actually my HRV has made it so I rarely need AC.
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Online coppercone2

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2018, 02:59:56 am »
5 times improvement on existing mature aircon tech efficiency?
Not asking for much...
I suspect this will bring out many wacko ideas.

considering everyone says thermodynamics is the most dead engineering field, I think this could bring it some new life. People said mechanicals golden age was over but now with CNC and plastic we can have greatly increased complexity where it would be completely disregarded prior. IMO thermodynamics is still dead as dog shit. Mechanical does not have quite the 'golden age' that lasers and maybe electronics do, as it did 70 years ago, but its still faring alot better. 

Now, cryogenics is a bit different, and extreme temperatures have limited application other then ceramics, but I think thermal engineering within 300C above zero is super stagnant.

All I have is a digital thermostat (really electronics) and rockwool insulation, as far as modern developments lol. Compared to the amount of mechanical and electronic things I have in my house its nothing. The mechanical and electronic aspect of a new refrigerator are amazing (great design of shelves, led lights, humidity control cabinets)but its still a ancient compressor inside of it, no amazing insulation, no solid state or whatever. I am sure if I take the back panel off its gonna be the same thing as 1975.  I struggle to imagine it change however  :-DD
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 03:09:02 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2018, 01:49:00 pm »
Space heating at 52%

I know in council owned properties back around 1970's in certain cities they used communal boilers and they were only just getting rid of them on refurbishment projects a couple of years ago and they giving the residents their own boiler and I heard they were not happy about it.

I went to Amsterdam once and it was cold.

A year later when I went back I saw most streets in the city area with floodlights outside the pubs and shops with infrared looking lights and they were giving out lots of heat.

district heating is still very much a thing, here the coal fired power plant can reach 90% efficiency making both electricity and heating, trash incineration and a cement factory also put their waste heat into the system. Apple big new data center is also going to put the waste energy in their cooling into district heating
As long as it's hot enough > 88oC, waste heat could also be used to power an absorption chiller to provide air conditioning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator

I think waste heat usage should be mandatory, whenever practical.

The urban heat island effect is also  a problem, especially in some cities like London. They should design buildings to be better at keeping the heat in winter and cool in summer.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2018, 05:15:50 pm »
Hero999,

The problem isn't that it makes no sense, its that sharing heating -makes too much sense and so, would be framed by trade agreements as a trade barrier, because it decreases the potential for profit which supposedly commercial firms are now entitled to.

Everything has changed in the last few years in that respect. the idea of "universal service obligations" and "public services", where local communities owned utilities or other resources like water in order to make things like electricity and clean water available to ALL, have been jettisoned in favor of new rights given to investors to both commercially exploit all 'markets' to the maximum extent possible and to own a right to any new profitable change continuing in perpetuity (but not its reverse, the people always lose rights and cannot regain them)

So, once something is sold at all, it becomes fair game for profiteering, with no limits allowed, except the most minimal ones possible, even in critical areas like energy, banking and health insurance,  sell and buy these commodities internationally without government interference.

Regulations (which includes any kind of cost sharing measure that reduces the total cost to anybody) must be the least burdensome necessary to ensure the quality of the service. Burdensome meaning unprofitable to businesses.

Inequality is now good, (SARCASM >>>)because after all, part of the pleasure people get from spending lots of money on something like modern health care or a warm or cool home in the winter and summer, respectively is the exclusivity of it, which is based on the fact that others arent getting it. (/SARCASM)

(Look up whats allowed and what isnt in indexes like the OECD's STRI (Services Trade Restrictiveness Index)


Could some kinds of new rights to essentials like water, primary education, air, and some habitable physical space to occupy within the parameters which sustain life and liquid water be established? The recent attempt to create a right to water for all in the European Union and have all the member states agree on it didn't turn out so well, a red flag that should give people pause. Everything changed with the creation of the WTO, World Bank, OECD, ad the many other so called global economic governance institutions. Countries 'measures' now need to be minimal, structured as to have the least possible impact on trade. That means that new non-conforming measures that distort trade have to be limited to the most extreme cases and - in order to set an example, are only available for limited periods to the poorest countries. When a countries applies to join the WTO often they "require" they give them up. This is kind of like an inside joke, on all of us.

Its led by the big countries. Who are so strongly in favor of making the selling of essential any thing becoming corporate rights that in order to trade with them other countries are put under pressure to give them up. Consequently a steady stream of entangling agreements has eroded the 'policy space' of what countries can do in these areas, unless it already existed before these agreements were established and has not been changed in any respect.

This might apply in places like Scandinavia Canada that have a long tradition of social services - who have also not allowed any privatization in those areas.

Then the old services and rights pre-WTO and pre-other FTAs can remain - by virtue of grandfathering.

So generally, any kind of association that makes essentials more affordable for all people is seen as anathema to these ever more aggressive interests and ideologies. Helping the destitute may be okay if its done minimally and for the shortest period of time. As long as nobody who is not entitled to it gets help. Also, rules of every possible kind, that increase prices, like wage and hour laws, safety regulations, etc. are framed as tariffs or trade barriers, and only temporary crutches which the free market will eventually eliminate.

Good paper on what needs to be done to carve out space for services.

This increasingly applies to things like healthcare, water, education and other "services of general interest".  (The new official name in the EU for what used to be called 'public services'.)

 commercial f
Space heating at 52%

I know in council owned properties back around 1970's in certain cities they used communal boilers and they were only just getting rid of them on refurbishment projects a couple of years ago and they giving the residents their own boiler and I heard they were not happy about it.

I went to Amsterdam once and it was cold.

A year later when I went back I saw most streets in the city area with floodlights outside the pubs and shops with infrared looking lights and they were giving out lots of heat.

district heating is still very much a thing, here the coal fired power plant can reach 90% efficiency making both electricity and heating, trash incineration and a cement factory also put their waste heat into the system. Apple big new data center is also going to put the waste energy in their cooling into district heating
As long as it's hot enough > 88oC, waste heat could also be used to power an absorption chiller to provide air conditioning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator

I think waste heat usage should be mandatory, whenever practical.

The urban heat island effect is also  a problem, especially in some cities like London. They should design buildings to be better at keeping the heat in winter and cool in summer.

Its as bad or in many cases even worse outside the EU, basically this is a worldwide change put into place because of shifting power as workers become more globalized and less necessary, the balance of power is shifting to supranational corporations. To them, money is everything and anything that impedes profit is a threat. They see the kinds of safety nets that existed in the past to be a slippery slope because of the vanishing nature of the kinds of jobs that employed a lot of people. They see their dominance as directly threatened by democracy because people would just vote to fix things, what they now frame as indirect expropriation.


Look that phrase up if you want to understand whats being done. LAws must now serve businesses and investors, particularly international investors.

Instead of buying all-risk insurance (commercial risk insurance would be the way to do this) against changing laws and times, as corporations used to do, now they get it free, as taxpayers of countries are liable if their lawmakers change some law and their country gets sued for "lost expected future profits" (This new 'tort' is now sued for in a special forum where countries only exist to be sued, and people don't exist at all except as markets.)

Look up Investor State dispute settlement (ISDS) and "indirect expropriation")
Also, the so called governmental authority exemption.

To so called "Intra-EU BITS" are also informative on this issue. A recent case Achmea is also worth looking at.

The situation in the US as far as public knowledge of these issues is even worse than in other countries. probably because we're the country pushing these agreements the most it seems. Things haven't changed much, really. Despite what you read in the media these things are still being promoted. To take advantage of a widespread state of ignorance.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 06:15:21 pm by cdev »
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2018, 09:59:02 pm »
Considering the world is entering into a new mini-ice-age, soon the most efficient form of building cooling will be to open windows.
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2018, 09:03:12 am »
Hero999,

The problem isn't that it makes no sense, its that sharing heating -makes too much sense and so, would be framed by trade agreements as a trade barrier, because it decreases the potential for profit which supposedly commercial firms are now entitled to.
Nonsense. They could get subsidies and sell the extra heat/cold for a profit.

Considering the world is entering into a new mini-ice-age, soon the most efficient form of building cooling will be to open windows.
Based on what evidence? A load of crap about grand solar minimum you read on the Internet? You do realise that we're close to solar minimum now and that it has little impact on the global temperature?

Solar minimum can affect local climates and weather patterns, which is a different matter. For example it increases the chance of a negative winter north Atlantic oscillation, which gives northern Europe and the eastern US a cold winter, but a mild winter in north eastern Canada and Greenland. The net change in temperature over the globe is negligible. It's just warm air moves north, displacing cold air, which moves south.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2018, 10:00:08 am »


Some people think that the Laws of science can be broken just like the Laws of man. 

Drive 65 miles per hour, I can break that law.  No parking, I can break that law.  The laws of thermodynamics, I can break those laws, they are not etched in stone!

Sounded a bit like one of Hillary Clinton's outburst.

They need to build more trees considering the recent wildfires in California.

No, just rake more, like in Finland! ;D
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2018, 12:15:18 pm »
Considering the world is entering into a new mini-ice-age, soon the most efficient form of building cooling will be to open windows.
Based on what evidence? A load of crap about grand solar minimum you read on the Internet? You do realise that we're close to solar minimum now and that it has little impact on the global temperature?

Someone sounds triggered. Have some more then.
* Current solar cycle 24: yes, we're into the low. But that's not the issue. It's the prediction that this is the start of a hundred years+ of 'grand minimum', with overall extremely low Sun activity through several solar cycles. Expected to be at least equivalent to the Maunder Minimum (1645 to 1715).
* "Little impact" - ha. https://www.iceagenow.info/greatest-two-year-global-cooling-event-in-100-years-media-ignores-it/
  It seems you've been ignoring reports of extreme cold weather developing the last couple of years. Still think "snow is a thing of the past"? Boy you're in for a surprise.
* This solar minimum story has been building for many years. With your 'ignore the internet' attitude, and that the developing science of how the Sun works and how solar activity affects Earth, being inconsistent with the MSM's AGW narrative, you probably have heard nothing of this. Just in case you can get over your Internet phobia, here's a roughly time-sequential history:
   http://everist.org/archives/links/__AGW_links.txt
Recent developments at the bottom of that. Note I only link-save about a tenth of the AGW-related stories I read.

Quote
Solar minimum can affect local climates and weather patterns, which is a different matter. For example it increases the chance of a negative winter north Atlantic oscillation, which gives northern Europe and the eastern US a cold winter, but a mild winter in north eastern Canada and Greenland. The net change in temperature over the globe is negligible. It's just warm air moves north, displacing cold air, which moves south.

You have NO IDEA of the mechanisms. None at all. You could try googling 'solar wind intensity, shielding of cosmic rays, affecting upper atmosphere cloud formation' and variants. Oh, but you'd have to touch that smelly Internet thing. Nevermind.

I've no wish or time to debate this. References provided, duty done. Bye.
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2018, 01:49:44 pm »
*usual BS about solar minimum removed*
You have NO IDEA of the mechanisms. None at all. You could try googling 'solar wind intensity, shielding of cosmic rays, affecting upper atmosphere cloud formation' and variants. Oh, but you'd have to touch that smelly Internet thing. Nevermind.

I've no wish or time to debate this. References provided, duty done. Bye.
I've read all of that before. I'm a former climate change sceptic.

You certainly have no idea.  Maunder Minimum did not cause a significant drop in global temperatures. It caused cold winters in one region and mild ones elsewhere.

No, I don't think snow is a thing of the past. Far from it. There is some evidence to suggest melting sea ice could cause more extreme cold in the mid latitudes. Weather patterns might change to allow more warm air north, displacing cold air, which slides south.

When one region is very cold, another will be much milder than usual. There's only a certain amount of energy in the earth's climate system and it doesn't  change rapidly enough to cause global temperatures to change as rapidly as weather. In cold spells of weather over Europe and eastern USA, it's mild over eastern Canada and Greenland. The last time this happened was late February to early March this year, when Europe froze, parts of the Arctic started to thaw!

High pressure over Greenland and Scandinavia pushed the jet stream south, causing north easterly winds to push cold air over Europe. On the other side of the high pressure, warm air was sucked up, over the Arctic.
https://theconversation.com/beast-from-the-east-and-freakishly-warm-arctic-temperatures-are-no-coincidence-92774



http://www.curtisfamily.org.uk/post/beast-from-the-east/

I suggest you read up on the basics of meteorology. Keywords: high and low pressure, blocking, North Atlantic Oscillation, jet stream, sudden stratospheric warming and polar vortex.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 05:43:12 pm by Hero999 »
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2018, 01:57:31 pm »
The more entropy due to whatever cause, it doesn't matter, the more variability.
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2018, 11:21:18 pm »
Sigh. I wasn't going to continue this, but then you wrote:

I've read all of that before. I'm a former climate change sceptic.

That one phrase "I'm a former climate change sceptic" is a beautiful reveal.
NO ONE with even the most superficial knowledge of Earth's climate history, can ever be a 'climate change skeptic.'
It's simply not honestly possible, because the Earth's climate changed dramatically and often. Always has and always will, since it's a chaotic system driven by a variable star.  An endless chain of ice ages alternating with warm periods (considerably hotter than now), interrupted by random massive extinction events from multiple natural causes. Not to mention that the historical average atmospheric CO2 level during the history of life on Earth is about five times higher than at present. Now is one of the lowest levels of CO2 in Earth's history; not far above general extinction level for plant life. That one detail alone completely blows the AGW bullshit out of the water, and shows it to be a deliberate lie by the originators. So do many other details, like that the CO2 levels historically LAG overall changes in temperature by hundreds of years. Atmospheric CO2 level isn't the driver, it's an effect (via ocean gas solubility variation with ocean temp.)
But of course you knew these things didn't you, because you've "read all of that before."

Your revealing 'former climate change sceptic' phrase is derived from (and an attempt to validate) the extremely nasty, stupid and dishonest bit of Warmist smear propaganda, calling their critics 'climate change deniers.' Which is:
1. Untrue. Critics of the Warmist claims are merely pointing out that CO2 and particularly human-released CO2 has little to zero effect on climate, and also that Earth's average temp and climate varies a LOT for other, natural reasons. It would be healthier for the biosphere for atmospheric CO2 levels to be much higher than now, like 1000 to 2000 ppm.
2. Supremely ironic, since it's the AGW crowd who are actually the ones claiming climate change doesn't exist (except when humans force it.) What do you think the 'hockey stick graph' is about? It claims the temperature in the past was flat, but now suddenly rising. Both parts of which are blatant, knowing lies. Since proven to have been based on deliberate data fraud by M. Mann and others.

Fraud like this:
youtube   watch?v=yqZGgaZaXig
Is The Global Temperature Record Credible?

Just one of countless examples, including quite a lot of proven data fraud from our own Australian bureau of meteorology.
If you were familiar with the contents of the CRU emails leaks, you'd have seen these fraudsters actually discussing among themselves how to foist their lies on the world. Don't even try to pretend these people are genuine and honest.


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Offline cdev

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2018, 11:39:11 pm »
Climate around 65 million years ago was so much warmer than today that the direct ancestors of today's coast redwood and giant sequoia trees grew way north of the Arctic Circle in what used to be a primordial forest, on Ellesmere Island. Now the area is desolate and glaciated, but stumps and fossils remain. More recently the same species, long thought to be extinct, was found still alive, growing in a small area in Hubei, China! And they are really beautiful trees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metasequoia
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2018, 12:56:07 am »
people that pollute on a large scale are insane gamblers at best.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Global cooling prize... Why am I skeptical?
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2018, 02:00:24 am »
In the past fungi ruled the Earth. They evolve very quickly.

"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 


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