Author Topic: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.  (Read 9693 times)

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2018, 10:07:02 am »
The way site clearances work is that it would cost the owner $500 to remove and dispose of an item. If they auction it for $1, it's not because they are trying to make money, but save themselves $500, because removal is now the responsibility of the new owner. If you buying an item "ex works", you are responsible for additional costs, you can't expect the seller to throw in extras just because you are a nice guy.
..but if you show up and act professionally, and then talk to the people on the ground there, it is entirely likely that they will let you have stuff that hasn't been sold, dive the dumpster etc.
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Offline TerraHertzTopic starter

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2018, 12:32:20 pm »
Monday: sorry, no news to report. The morning got chewed (apart from updating the article a bit), then Monday afternoons are when I do regular care stuff for my aged mum. So, discussion with Pickles tomorrow.

A few points to clarify:

* 'Storage fees'. My very first inquiry post-auction was with Pickles, regarding that issue. There's a clause on their auction sheets about potential fees for 'storage' if items not picked up on time. They say that's a standard form for their usual auctions, where they actually hold the goods. This auction was different - the goods are still on site in Albury (600 Kms from Sydney) and the storage fees don't apply. Also Benson have said there are no storage fees.

There were two classes of items - small miscellaneous items, that had a fixed pickup period. Only because Benson don't want to be bothered with that stuff while they do the _other_ class of items. That are huge machines, which they have to decommission and move out of the factory to load on buyer's transport. And they charge thousands for that service - fair enough.
I expect when I go there, the offices will still have a lot of junk lying around, that didn't sell or no one picked up.
I'm curious to see whether the server racks went. May not have.

The UPS is a grey area in between those two classes. Located in the offices, big and heavy but still one-man doable, in a room by itself. They OK'd with no objection, leaving it sitting there till I was ready. They listed it in with the small stuff, but have OK'd it being picked up later during the months it is taking them to shift the big machines. That's all fine.

* Auctioneer - Pickles in Sydney just handled the online auction, they have nothing to do with the actual site in Albury. All site matters are handled by Benson Machines. Benson are the ones being awkward.

* Whether I turned them off initially - no, they started talking about removal fees right from my first contact. They wouldn't talk about anything else. It's their sole focus. They want to make some money out of the thing, and don't accept that an auction sale price is final and they goofed by not specifying such fees in the listing.

* Moving it - I'm perfectly capable of that. Have everything needed to get it up, out and onto a trailer. No problem at all. I've done this sort of thing a fair bit.

* Cable chopping - ha ha, yeah if I was in a rush to get it out, that's what I'd do too. Voltalert, OK it's dead, chop. Wire cutters, insulated handle tree loppers, ratcheting cable cutters for big stuff, or angle grinder for steel armored.
  If I can force them to do the disconnect, I'm pretty sure that's what they'll do.
  If I do the disconnect I'd be nice, do it professionally, and make remaining wiring safe.

* Friends to help - to do what? A two day round trip to Albury, during the working week, and while there according to Benson they must have workers compo insurance.  To help me wheel the UPS down a short corridor? Heh. I'm old but not that old.

* Electrician - Already have a list of Albury electrician phone numbers to call, if it comes to that. But I'd rather try the small claims court order path first. On principle.

* The fate of the empty factory - I'm just guessing demolition. Hunch based on location, surrounding urban development, lack of industry in Albury, etc. I'll be trying to find out for sure.
Wish it was closer to Sydney. It's going to be a ace urbex location if it passes through an abandonment stage.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 01:25:35 pm by TerraHertz »
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2018, 12:54:56 pm »
* Auctioneer - Pickles in Sydney just handled the online auction, they have nothing to do with the actual site in Albury. All site stuff is handled by Benson Machines. They are the ones being awkward.
Unless the terms state otherwise, your contract is with the auctioneer, Benson are effectively agents acting for them.
 
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Offline TerraHertzTopic starter

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2018, 01:33:22 pm »
Unless the terms state otherwise, your contract is with the auctioneer, Benson are effectively agents acting for them.
Actually, the original auction pages said something like "Pickles, acting on behalf of ASI International" (the company that owns the factory.) Benson are contracted to ASI to actually operate the place - and now to dismantle it.

So... to what extent the auction item listings are binding, and on who, remains to be seen. This is why I need to talk to Pickles next.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2018, 01:43:41 pm »
If you talk to Pickles do yourself a big favour and don't mention your illness, how you feel treated unfairly, etc, etc. It really isn't relevant and it will confuse the hell out of the person you talk to. Just say you are ready to pick the UPS up but it is still connected to mains wiring and ask when it is going to be disconnected. If they don't know when the UPS is going to be disconnected then tell them to contact you when it is disconnected. Make it THEIR problem first in a polite way and see how the ball rolls from there.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline zzattack

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2018, 04:05:30 pm »
I understand the reasoning behind their uncooperative attitude. You've surely done your due diligence and I have little doubt you'd be able to transport the UPS by yourself with no assistance from the factory maintainer.

Let's look at this manner from mr. Philips' standpoint. Your first email starts with a page's worth of text irrelevant to scheduling the pickup including an outside link to a blogpost (I guess, haven't clicked. Who would?), something about a Spaceturn machine, and an anecdote about former employment. Put frankly: what could mr. Philips possibly care?
The mail then continues with actual questions about the UPS. I suppose that's fine, but really you should expect 'wysiwig' for every auction that has no reserve set or just a low price in general. You're not entitled to a hands-on demonstration or guidance in using it, so to speak. Certainly I wouldn't expect you to receive any substantive answers to them. And to close, you a) ramble on about that spaceturn machine, b) nag about removal fee's that you find high, c) put an inventory question in there, d) some mild berating on them not setting reserves and questioing their auctioning policy, and e) another question about another entirely unrelated auction.

If mr. Philips is indeed busy as he claims, I totally understand his dread for writing up a reply to you. The email you sent announces to me that dealing with you is going to be a massive hassle. I would expect you to be the type of 'customer' who'll be sending support-type questions for months after the actual sale. Quite a pain when you're simply trying to get rid of some inventory and not anything they'd be looking forward to. Am I surprised by the email you got in return? Absolutely not! Sure, you may assume they're trying to make you abandon the whole thing by coming up with the bullshit fees. There's even some merit to the whole litigation part of it.

Your reply lacks any form of tact; you instantly switch over to attack mode. You claim to know perfectly well what's involved in the removal. Implicitly that says you feel they do not, which could be perceived as hostile by mr. Philips. Then, "unreasonable", "confirm (...) at no cost", "I'll remind you (...) no note of any charges", "you wish in hindsight", "conditions of sale", "don't think that (...) I take this lightly".
You basically announce that you've paid them $1 and you're going to milk that so hard and be such a goddamn pain about it they'll wish the wrecking ball cranes came in yesterday.

The whole blogpost just takes it another few steps further by vilifying the guy with, your words, "rapacious attitudes" and "unbelievable stupidity".
 
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Offline TerraHertzTopic starter

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2018, 07:19:17 am »
Speaking with Pickles today went well.  Their rep thinks the extra fees and conditions are not viable. They are going to see if they can convince Benson to release the UPS per the auction conditions, ie none.

Ha ha. I wish I'd spoken to Pickles first, right after learning of Benson's intention to obstruct. Because the Pickles guy says they would simply have withheld the *entire* auction takings from the Albury company, till they complied with the listing terms.  But since the money has been transferred months ago, their leverage is greatly lessened.

At the time it never occurred to me that would even be possible. But, I guess my transport problems would have killed that very nice idea anyway.
The auction details said 'for pickup arrangements, contact Paul Philips at Benson. So that's what I did.


Re the length of my first reply to Mr Philips - everything spaceturn lathe related is business - I'd bid on one, been beaten, but the machine passed in. I expect all five of them failed to reach reserve. Philips had in his very first contact offered me a chance to still buy one. I was politely letting him know why I probably could not. Asking if the loading fee was negotiable was part of that. I could have just said 'no thanks' I suppose.
Benson have been maintaining the machines for years, and I thought he might have been interested to read a potential 'hobbyist' buyer's observations on the machines. Just being friendly at that point. I didn't expect any reply to a lot of that.

As for my combative attitude, sequencing is important. Sure, I'm pissed off.  I get that way when (after!) someone tries to extort nearly $1000 dollars from me. I suspect you would be too. I was polite up until he started making bullshit, lying claims about the difficulty of disconnecting it. And was even relatively polite afterwards.

The web doc was written after I contacted the guy in Albury just recently, and received the same obstruction, making it clear there was no way round it. What's the point of pretending? I've tried polite, it makes no difference.

zzattack
Quote
If mr. Philips is indeed busy as he claims, I totally understand his dread for writing up a reply to you.
Heh. You do realize that after it's clear he wasn't going to agree to just release the UPS, the length and detail of my emails is deliberate strategy?

Quote
you claim to know perfectly well what's involved in the removal. Implicitly that says you feel they do not, which could be perceived as hostile by mr. Philips.
No, implying I know he's lying. Which he is. I *intended* it to clearly imply he's lying.  Yes, I'm being hostile. He's lying to support an extortionate  demand for nearly $1000. By that time there's no use pretending friendship.

Quote
'pestering them for months afterwards with support questions'
Don't be ridiculous. There is nothing they can do in the way of support. I'm perfectly aware I'm on my own with that.
What I wish to hear from Benson/Mr Philips is "The UPS is isolated, and access to the Albury office to remove the UPS will be available on ~date~." After that, not a word.
Don't even expect to be able to get anything useful from the UPS manufacturer.

Anyway, currently waiting to see if Pickles' attempt has any effect. Who knows? In the meantime looking into NSW Small Claims Court procedures, trying to get an idea of the likely costs. The websites are a tarbaby.
Yes, I'm the kind of person who'd rather pay a few hundred to win in a way that humiliates the opponent, than pay many hundreds to an extortionist, ie letting them win.

PS. Today received a letter announcing an old family friend died recently.  Sigh.
Everyone grows old in a foreign country.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 07:23:31 am by TerraHertz »
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Offline Harb

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2018, 07:28:52 am »
You just did it again !!  what has your PS got to do with this thread !! condolences by the way   :(

I do tend to agree with ZZattack though..........Sorry mate but you do seem like a hassle to deal with....... what you should have done was what you did today instead of going out with all barrels blazing on the original owner, who no doubt has more to do that sort out a $1 sale that may end him up in a lot more trouble than its worth..........this is just my opinion though
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 07:33:41 am by Harb »
 

Offline SL4P

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2018, 04:20:17 pm »
Get all your original ducks in a row, then apply for an order for them to release the UPS.

i’d probably go the modern equivalent of the ‘chamber magistrate’ (i.e. VCAT etc) getting an order that allows you to collect the goods on a specific date 7/14 days.
They may add a rider that police are in attendance to quell any obstruction by the seller.

You onLy get one chance, don’t screw it up.
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Offline TerraHertzTopic starter

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2018, 07:39:09 am »
You onLy get one chance, don’t screw it up.

Indeed.

I'll be contacting Pickles again tomorrow, to see if that's going anywhere.
In the meantime preparing a 'letter of demand' to send Benson if Pickles get nowhere. It's necessary to have done that before initiating legal action.

And yeah, it's much more polite than my web article. Brief and to the point.

Just because I _can_ write pages, doesn't mean I'm compulsive about it.
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Offline senso

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2018, 11:49:13 am »
It WAS 1$, how can you fuck that up so bad?  :palm:
 

Offline TerraHertzTopic starter

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2018, 01:25:58 pm »
It WAS 1$, how can you fuck that up so bad?  :palm:

Hey?
They started talking about extra costs to disconnect it, from my very first contact. I've been going over my notes, and he was doing that in the absolutely first phone call. He just hadn't come up with a figure yet. I don't think it's fair to say I f*cked it up. Benson f*cked themselves, by not putting any reserve price on an auction starting at $1. Then made themselves look like jerks by not wearing it, and lying to justify their demands.

Anyway, we'll see. Worst case, I'm out by nothing. Best case, I have a nice big UPS for $1 (plus a lot of petrol.)
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2018, 09:17:37 pm »
It WAS 1$, how can you fuck that up so bad?  :palm:

Hey?
They started talking about extra costs to disconnect it, from my very first contact. I've been going over my notes, and he was doing that in the absolutely first phone call. He just hadn't come up with a figure yet. I don't think it's fair to say I f*cked it up. Benson f*cked themselves, by not putting any reserve price on an auction starting at $1. Then made themselves look like jerks by not wearing it, and lying to justify their demands.

Anyway, we'll see. Worst case, I'm out by nothing. Best case, I have a nice big UPS for $1 (plus a lot of petrol.)
Worst case you didn't read all the fineprint and are indeed supposed to pay for disconnecting the UPS. I'd be careful with threatening with legal action. You simply can't rely on what someone has told you over the phone. Before doing anything else get a written statement with a signature from Pickles that you are not supposed to pay to disconnect the device you have bought.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline TerraHertzTopic starter

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2018, 06:22:12 am »
Worst case you didn't read all the fineprint and are indeed supposed to pay for disconnecting the UPS. I'd be careful with threatening with legal action. You simply can't rely on what someone has told you over the phone. Before doing anything else get a written statement with a signature from Pickles that you are not supposed to pay to disconnect the device you have bought.

Don't worry, that's not the case. The written statement is a good idea though. I'll ask the Pickles rep tomorrow.
Anyway, Pickles are being very helpful and friendly, dealing with the holding company above Benson, on my behalf.

There are further leverage efforts against Benson ready to go if Pickles' efforts don't bear fruit. Stuff that has to be done before taking it to small claims court. I've not 'threatened' Benson with that, I'll just proceed as soon as all else has obviously failed.

One worry is that apparently Benson have only a few more weeks onsite work, shipping out the big machines. What happens to the UPS after that if they've continued to stall? I've asked, hope to find out soon.

---------------
Edit to add something unrelated...

Dammit, I seem to be a SNAFU-magnet at the moment. How's this for ridiculous?
Trying to buy a tube of silicone-based high vacuum grease, from a US ebay seller. They ship worldwide, no problems, but I had it sent to my US reshipper since I thought I'd combine it with other packages. But ended up needing to resend it as is. Then this happened...

What is the problem with sending this package?
03/20/2018
Hi, I have twice requested mailout of this package DY. Everything seems fine, but then it goes back to awaiting shipment, I get an email that I have a shipito notification, I log on to your site, can't find any notification. Just the item DY sitting there.

Can you tell me what is wrong, please? According to the shipping page, it is OK to go via airmail, which I selected. I have sufficient funds in my account.
----------

Shipito Support
What is the problem with sending this package?
03/20/2018
Hello Guy

Please always remember to check your notifications on the upper right hand corner of your account. You were notified by the warehouse of the following:

This notification is to inform you that your mailout for package(s) DY has been cancelled by our admin for the following reason: (Vacuum Grease) We regret to inform you that we have just learned that the parcel you requested be shipped contains flammable liquid or essential oil which cannot be shipped with any carrier. Your mail out request has been cancelled. Therefore, you must decide between the following two options how you would like Shipito, LLC to dispose of the items in question: 1. Place a special request to have the specified items/parcel disposed. 2. Have the restricted item(s) returned to the merchant. To do this please submit a special request with a prepaid return shipping label and we will return the parcel on your behalf. The special request fee will be $5 USD and there will also be a processing fee of $2 USD applied. If you have any questions or concerns about shipping items in the future, please refer to our website for a listing of restricted and prohibited items or contact our team for additional assistance In an effort to uphold our customs compliance standards, Shipito’s prohibited and restricted items list may be more expansive than individual country or carrier laws.

Best regards
-------------

Mailout of my package DY
03/21/2018
"contains flammable liquid or essential oil"
No it does not. It's a very thick, silicone high vacuum grease, which is specifically designed to be NOT flammable, NOT an oil, and NOT produce any gasses under reduced pressure. It's very very inert.

The material safety data sheet is here: https://carleton.ca/mae/wp-content/uploads/Dowcorn-High-Vacuum-Grease.pdf

It's far less flammable than the box it's in. I think you must be mislead by the word 'grease'. The only similarity to normal greases is that it's in a tube, and sticky.

Do you ban silicone glue and sealants? It's the same kind of stuff as those.

Please let me know whether this sorts out the issue, or not.

Best regards,
Guy
--------------

Mailout of my parcel DY
03/21/2018

OK, I found the 'notifications'. Couldn't see it before.
Further to this, I checked your prohibited goods lists. The material is an inert silicone jell-like compound. It is not a liquid, not an oil, is not flammable, combustible or hazardous, and not perishable. It does not flow if spilled. It has the consistency of cold butter. It will not out-gas under low pressure. (That's the whole point of it - it does not contaminate vacuum equipment with any volatiles under vacuum.)
It is not an ITAR regulated item.

It's literally as inert as a material can be, while still acting as a flexible sealant.
The ebay seller ships worldwide, including to Australia. I had just expected to be combining it with other items. Till realizing my shipito paid subscription has expired, so had to send individually.
Bought here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/DOW-CORNING-Silicone-High-Vacuum-Grease-976V-Stopcock/271160260617

See attached material safety sheet.  ( Dowcorn-High-Vacuum-Grease.pdf )

It's also quite expensive and hard to find.
I've altered the customs declaration to remove the word 'grease' that maybe triggers your ban.
Please let me know your conclusion.

Regards,
Guy
-----------------

Shipito Support
Safety Data Sheet for package DY
03/21/2018
Hello Guy,

Your inquiry has been submitted to the warehouse for review.

Thank you
------------------

Ha ha ha! Because silicone high vacuum grease is ... a fire risk?
After this I tried to burn some. (I have an old tube of it.)  It _barely_ can be made to burn in a direct flame. Self-extinguishes. Even burning it does not flow, just converts to an ashy remnant.

OK, shipito have to be careful. Fine. Urrgh.




« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 06:37:30 am by TerraHertz »
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Offline Harb

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2018, 08:32:17 am »
Serious ?   :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2018, 08:41:44 am »
Hopefully the MSDS will ease their concern.
 

Offline TerraHertzTopic starter

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2018, 02:36:35 am »
Heh. Victory with the vacuum grease:
Quote
Shipito Support
Prohibited Items
03/22/2018
I have inspected your package DY and found no prohibited substances. You can schedule mailout for this package now and should not find a problem.

The UPS story is progressing very well too, touch wood. I'll have more news next week.
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Offline TerraHertzTopic starter

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2018, 10:26:38 am »
OK, I have been informed I will be able to pick up the UPS shortly after Easter. They will disconnect the equipment at no cost to me. Also I found that personal accidental injury insurance is actually very cheap. So took out a policy for myself, that satisfies the site administrator's concerns.

The change in their position regarding the nearly $1000 extra cost Benson originally wanted, was thanks to the very kind, helpful and sensible intervention of management in both Pickles online auctions, and the holding company that is effectively the employer of Benson Machines.

I'll be informed of a date for pickup once the site electrician has done the disconnect. Which they mention they have discovered can be performed at a small fraction of their original estimate. :)
Looks like I'll only be dealing with Albury site staff, who in my experience are practical and helpful guys.

So, hopefully the next time I'll post about this here, will be a 30KVA UPS teardown. Touch wood.
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2018, 12:05:05 am »
Good news mate  :-+ 

Stocking up tomorrow on popcorn and beer for the 30KVA UPS teardown  :popcorn:

before the Easter shoppers hoard the lot   :scared:
 

Offline TerraHertzTopic starter

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2018, 03:24:38 am »
'Shortly' is likely to be at least the 2nd week after Easter. So maybe hold off on the popcorn just yet, or it will be stale by then.
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2018, 03:36:54 am »
We'll just make a fresh batch whenever we run out....
 
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Offline TerraHertzTopic starter

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Re: Having some trouble retrieving my property. Request for comments.
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2018, 03:33:55 pm »
Success! Picked it up in Albury and drove it back to Sydney on Tuesday.

Teardown thread here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/teardown-poweraware-pw9305-3phase-415v-ups-30kva-21kw/
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