Hilarious email from my assembly subcontractor

[mikeselectricstuff]

Hi Mike,
I need your help if you can?
We have a customer who has reverse engineered an LED board which is used as a fire effect, the original board was made up with conventional LED's and they have redesigned using surface mount RGB LED's.
The boards have been assembled however we now have a problem in the fact that they did not think about how to program the board to give it the effect they need. Is this something you could help us out with or guide us to what we would need to do? I have attached some pictures of the board.

(pics of a board with a PIC, a load of LEDs and a couple of ULN2003 drivers)

 

[daqq]

  By program do they mean upload the firmware, or program the firmware? I've seen a beautifully designed PCB where the designer somehow forgot about the ISP signals...

[BravoV]

The main question is how much they're willing to spend or pay you Mike ?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Define help.

[NivagSwerdna]

Sounds like a fun project. Ask them for a video of the original in action.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Theye didn't realise that the PIC needed code. There is an ISP header - they obviously just copied another product and expected it to work. Guessing their normal products are dumb LED lighting strips.
 

I'm too busy, and don't want clueless customers - pointed them towards the Microchip consultant list. Suspect they may get a surprise when they get a quote for writing the code...

[CJay]

(pics of a board with a PIC, a load of LEDs and a couple of ULN2003 drivers)

 

Well that sounds fun, I've had similar conversations with garage owners who have decided they're going to copy things like chassis dynos, brake testers and wheel balancers, they see the pile of bits and don't think about the software that sticks them all together.

[Zucca]

Definitely something for your muppet alert area Mike...

I think here they can help your customer:

www.youhavenoideawecanhelp.com

[medical-nerd]

Hiya

Theye didn't realise that the PIC needed code. There is an ISP header - they obviously just copied another product and expected it to work. Guessing their normal products are dumb LED lighting strips.
 

I'm too busy, and don't want clueless customers - pointed them towards the Microchip consultant list. Suspect they may get a surprise when they get a quote for writing the code...

Just out of interest since I've absolutely no idea - what's the ballpark quote for doing such a coding project?

Cheers

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Just out of interest since I've absolutely no idea - what's the ballpark quote for doing such a coding project?

Where?

[sokoloff]

Sounds like a fun project. Ask them for a video of the original in action.

Would be a fun project for a customer who knew they needed code.

A customer who gets to the point where there's a pile of physical boards already assembled and only then discovers that their project plan is missing a five-figure, 5-8 week item? A lot less fun, not because the customer is necessarily terrible to work with, but because they're now in a super-grumpy mood. (Sure, it's from their own doing, but still it sucks to be the guy who comes in trying to help someone who thought they were going to be profiting X now and instead will be profiting X/2 and not for a while.)

I'd love to do the coding for the first customer.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Depends a lot on the spec. If they have a file of the animation they want ( and it fits in the flash) it's a couple of hours work, however I rather suspect this customer hasn't, and has no clue what they mean by "fire effect". If they have the original fitting you could capture the data and hope the data is short enough to fit, but even that's probably 4-6x the work.
if the original has some clever generative algorithm, then unless you pull their code it could be a lot of work.
I wouldn't touch a job like this with a long pole.

[Brumby]

Unless you had a video clip that clearly demonstrates the effect, I wouldn't touch it either.  There's no guarantee the "effect" you came up with would be what they want.  That would turn into a very painful exercise.

Even if they did - it's not the sort of project that would appeal to me.

[CJay]

Sounds like a fun project. Ask them for a video of the original in action.

Would be a fun project for a customer who knew they needed code.

A customer who gets to the point where there's a pile of physical boards already assembled and only then discovers that their project plan is missing a five-figure, 5-8 week item? A lot less fun, not because the customer is necessarily terrible to work with, but because they're now in a super-grumpy mood. (Sure, it's from their own doing, but still it sucks to be the guy who comes in trying to help someone who thought they were going to be profiting X now and instead will be profiting X/2 and not for a while.)

I'd love to do the coding for the first customer.

Plus they've already ripped off the design which means they're cheap, have limited understanding of the product and won't have a clue about software development so getting anything like a reasonable payment out of them is going to be like squeezing blood out of a stone.

I feel for the assemblers because they're stuck in the middle and it's possible they may not get paid but I would not want to go anywhere near it either.

[Berni]

Hah nice one! 

Yeah people who have a little clue about a subject are the most confident. They know enough to recognize components and wire them together by a photo or diagram, yet still have no idea how any of it works.

Reminds me of a guy who asked me about modifying the code in some automatic cat litter box that was run by a PIC. Not only was the chip most likely read protected, but even if code could be read it would need hefty reverse engineering of that horrible assembler

[X]

I have this terrible feeling of déjà vu...

[mikeselectricstuff]

Plus they've already ripped off the design which means they're cheap, have limited understanding of the product and won't have a clue about software development so getting anything like a reasonable payment out of them is going to be like squeezing blood out of a stone.

Well as regards actual payment, when I used to do this sort of job I sent code-protected parts in the protos, and only released the code when my invoice was paid.

[T3sl4co1l]

Wow!  It's a cargo cult, refined slightly!

Tim

[schmitt trigger]

Most likely the "redesign" no only involved replacing thru LEDs with SMT ones, but also involved some "Muntzing" and replacement of components to remove some cost from the original board

[NivagSwerdna]

Depends a lot on the spec. If they have a file of the animation they want ( and it fits in the flash) it's a couple of hours work, however I rather suspect this customer hasn't, and has no clue what they mean by "fire effect".

Agreed.  It might be a bit subjective as to the acceptability of the end result.
I wonder how many they have assembled. 

[CJay]

Plus they've already ripped off the design which means they're cheap, have limited understanding of the product and won't have a clue about software development so getting anything like a reasonable payment out of them is going to be like squeezing blood out of a stone.

Well as regards actual payment, when I used to do this sort of job I sent code-protected parts in the protos, and only released the code when my invoice was paid.

I would do the exact same, I meant that they'd balk in the face of a reasonable quote/estimate for the work, I could have phrased it better.

[BrianHG]

My price, 1k$ to just look at the thing they have built and read the spec for only 10 minutes max.
500$/hour, including travel time, snack and lunch, payed in 1 day increments of 10 hours blocks.
Any post help incurs a new additional 10 hour block day charge or 5k$

Then, I would take the minimum 6k$-11k$ and enjoy a weekend out...

However, I happen to have a little time on my hands right now, otherwise, I would say no.

Though I already done a 1 day 6k$ job in the past, it was a motor controller PCB with USB and microcontroller.  The guy was in a fix and paid, however, at least he knew what he was doing.  He was happy with the end product and now has me on his 'Ohhhh shit, this must be done in 1-2 day, and work properly out of the box emergency problem solver...'  He also fired his main engineer after seeing how I patched up and caught something like over 20 errors in his original design during that 1 day.

[tszaboo]

What, you mean electronics is different than cogs? Like you put it together and it doesnt just magically work?

My suggestion would be to scrap the boards, and order new ones where the supplier programmed the micros before they go on PCB.
If they take the suggestion, they have money enough money to pay you as consultant.

[Berni]

Oh and on the topic of well defined specs. There was a guy who wanted a thing that blinks a led light with a pattern and the only "documentation" that he would give on the blinking pattern was him gesturing with his hands while saying "Blip....blip.blip". When asked about timings for each blip he would just show it again.

[chris_leyson]

You can't make this stuff up can you, absolutely brilliant. I hope the production run wasn't too big